if we read and listen too much to the journalists we may all give up now. Without hope we have nothing. We came out of the recession before and we will again

It is all coming out in the wash now. We trusted the people to take account they were getting bloody well paid. But most of them took a lot more, in other words robbed us and fooled us. I hope they end up broke and lose every thing. That is how I feel.

Over half of us are pessimistic and only a quarter are optimisitic.

I figure if both my partner and I keep our jobs we'll be ok. Ironically prices do seem to be coming down as regards both petrol and and non-basics (gifts, luxury items etc)

Maria

Well said Tipperary and thank you for your optimism.

Maria

I think we will be fine. It baffles me that so many people are moaning about the recession when it hasnt actually affected them directly. If you and your partner/spouse etc are still in the same jobs as last year and still on the same pay, you should technically be better off. Fuel is down, food price wars have begun, interest rates have gone down, rent is down - unless one has lost their job or is being forced to sell property in the current market, I dont see what issues there could possible be at the moment. Landlords may be feeling a slight pinch but lets face it if someone can afford to buy a second property simply to bring in extra cash each month then they are not by any means "poor". Looking at the ads on daft, a hefty amount of them still feel they can indulge in "no rent allowance" snobbery or tax evasion so things cant be THAT bad for them. Estate agents are giving away xmas hampers and "2weeks rent free" as incentives to rent but landlords are still REFUSING to drop their prices to what is an economic reality ie you can STILL mortgage a house for less each month than you spend on rent. I think the media are to be held accountable for a lot of the scare mongering that has gone on. "recession" is simply a front page buzzword for them, and they do not care that they are feeding into peoples insecurities and financial worries.

Who could be optimistic with the crowd of clowns in govt and the unchecked bank robbers in the banks that got us into the state we're in regardless of the world recession.  Giving up by sticking your head in the sand and blaming the media and journalists for telling it as it is wont make it better.

Its amazing how some people miss the spin and bulls**t of this govt to make them feel better.  For once in a long long time they have to admit to the truth and we'll have no option but to get through it regardless of what words its ensconced in.  

Maybe there's something to be said for a recession after all!

Consultants, Pharmacists, Bankers, Trade Unionists, Politicians, Bishops, Property Specuators/Developers, Civil Servants of all sorts with their madly generous allowances;no one in Ireland will put their hands up, admit they made a bags of it [accidentally or deliberatly] and step aside/resign [Maurice Pratt excluded]. How do people like all of these, who are unfairly taking advantage of others in society, just point their fingers at others and continue to rake in the profits without feeling guilt? Greed of all these people and the fact that we let them away with it, has got us where we are. The only ones faced down so far have been the bishops, when we sort out the rest, we will be have plenty to go around and can be happy again in a just society.

Tipperary 22/12/08 19;13, I do not share this view .

Only for newspapers and other groups we would still be in the dark about a lot of corrupt government people and what about the the going's on in the church

In my view we have the journalist to thank for in shedding the light that we have now. Going back to the doom and gloom that was helped in a big way by corrupt bankers government and what ever else you might find on a dung heap.

Anyone who has helped to bring suffering and hardship to the hard working people I hope they pay for it big time one way or another.

I could see the economic downturn coming.  So why not our politicians?

It is going to be tough for the people who have large mortgages, but as anonymous said, if we can manage to hold on to our jobs and lower our expectations on a monetary scale it will be a learning curve on how to economise which will be beneficial for the future.  Let us get back to basics and see what we are capable of achieving, people are doing this all over the world already, look on this time as a challenge. Leaving the car in the driveway and getting some exercise walking your children to school.  If you are in the habit of ordering take aways, drop them.  If you go out socialising cut the amount of evenings, if you want meet friends over a meal go between the "Special pre theatre menu prices", we have a challenge for the next year or two.  We will rise like the "Phoenix out of the ashes" yet again.

Anne

It is the younger people that will feel the brunt of it more never to have known how to do without and make do. We were a generation of have it now and pay later not like our parents in the 40s 50s 60s and 70s who only paid for what they could afford and never wasted.  Maybe it is good to stand back and check ourselves out and see what is important in life and not things and what everybody has.

hear hear Maria.

Every year is a new challenge, we never know what it is going to be like and 2009 is no different.  Hope for the best and do your best in everything you do.

Happy New Year everybody.

Over the last three to four years people went mad on paying out outlandish prices for homes. It seemed to me that as long as the house was in a posh estate  away from the rift raft [NOT MY VIEW] a nice new and in most cases two new cars in the the driveway people were happy with no taught being given to what happens if intrest rates rocket. Lots of times we were warned by different experts that d day was coming , people are all to ready to blame the banks but at the end of the day it is who ever signs on the  line is to blame in most cases.

Can I suggest every one read a post dated  anonymous 26/12/08 @7;31

I think this post is the best bit of advice that anyone would ever want in todays world of  rich and poor times.

Very true. Our parents and grandparents are from an era where one saved for something and then bought it with real money and it was completely theirs. Now, people have car loans, holiday loans, credit cards...its ridiculous really. There is a whole instant gratification approach. People see someting and they want it there and then. There is no such thing as saving any more.

Looking at some of your post right here you would think the recession was here and gone. Go on guys give each other another pat on the back , The recession is only starting. 09 will tell what a recession is and what it will do to most of us.

 I am entitled to my view I think there might be a odd  supporter of the government  posting here . If any of you were listening to the clowns they say that next year will be the mother of all battles which has never been seen before .Question How many posting here went away to Xmas shop this year  By going away you are putting Irish jobs at risk I can answer for myself I and all my family stayed here to shop how many of you did that.

Tipperary posted 22/12/2008 @19;13

So you would like us all to stop reading our newspapers why do you say that?

In the last few years Newspapers were there in high lighting the big stories - abuse of children by the Church and others ,in the last few weeks FAS etc . I think that the newspapers have served us very well. Put it this way, what would be going on if we did not have them

Tipperary the last recession was a bit different than the one we are having now

I hope you are correct in what you are saying . Anyway my wish for all on irishhealth.com is to have safe and happy new 09.

                                 Alo.

Alo, I did my Christmas shopping in Dublin, and I am by no means a supporter of the pack of eejits in government at the moment. That said, there is nothing wrong with trying to remain positive and see the scare mongering for what it is, while at the same time retaining a sense of reality about what is happening in this country. Nobody is trying to deny that the recession is here and may get worse, but what is the point in feeding into the moaning (something that us Irish do best)? If your job is secure and your house is secure (remember that interest rates have come right down) and your supermarkets are having food price wars then what is the issue on a personal level? I am not denying that the recession is here, but am making the point that a lot of people are simply jumping on the complaints band wagon for the sake of it! I hate to sound bitchy, but your post sounds like you are nearly wishing more harsh times on us! Regards etc

The question was about 2009. I ticked pessimistic, because I don't think we'll start coming out of the current economic situation this year. I also didn't answer based on my own situation, I answered based on the Irish situation, so whether I keep or lose my job isn't relevant. It's the economic climate, not whether it rains on me! I also don't think the journalists are great for reporting on various financial scandals. This news was fed to them, so why wouldn't they report on it? Where was investigative journalism through all the years these things were happening? Or is it a case that's what's scandalous now was 'great crack' back then, journalists not being immune to the odd junket themselves? I believe a lot more of this kind of stuff will come out in the wash, and a lot more of it will remain covered up. But it's not emerging due to the diligence of journalists. I mean, one of the biggest robberies is right in our faces: the salaries of our elected representatives. A Taoiseach whose salary is on a par with George Bush (US population 300m to our mere 4m), and higher than Gordon Brown's salary (UK population 60m to our 4m). This example of high remuneration with expenses on top became a template for senior executives until the whole thing ran riot, leaving us just now BEGINNING to look at how much that riot, that frenzy, has cost the country. Pure bog ignorance and self-aggrandisement. The economic downturn is a cyclical thing, and inevitable. The financial crisis is man-made (but hey! It's not criminal!). The two together: very serious. I believe 2008 was only Act One of probably a Three or Four Act play.

Alo, We can read the newspapers but we don't have to believe everything now do we. If you get too much negativity it will only bring you down.

Remember, if the media were to report it as it is they wouldn't be in business for very long so don't believe everything you read "a pinch of salt with everything remember.

Anne

Lou,

Fair play to you because a lot of shoppers went elsewhere. I bet they are the one's that complain the most. I take your point in keeping positive. I think that maybe the banks and others could have done with this advice a long time ago. There is no point closing the gate when the horse has bolted.

Rgds Alo.

2009 resolution - believe nothing you hear from Biffo and his band of ostriches.

Don`t believe the media spin. Just go out there and work hard and do the jobs you wouldn`t do previously. Use your money wisely, but still spend.

Have a great year, please God.

Good Advice there from Anne, Lou, Alo and Phyl. Happy new year all. Sadly leaving the car in the driveway is not an option for me - I need to drive to work and my partner and I work in opposite directions from home. We are not on a bus route and it's impractical and too far to cycle. True it is said that '09 will be worse but if you have your job, your house and your health thru it you won't be doing too bad. I dislike scare-mongerign but I like to be realistic. Did the Christmas shopping in Dublin but with sterling parity, I can understand why those buying big ticket items would go up north - it just makes economic sense. But instead of listenign to the moaning or negativity, why don't we set ourselves some challenges / targets. Maybe this week see how low we can keep our lunch spending and the best one could offer advice, then next week out transport spending, then grocery after that, or whatever. Just an idea.

Maria

Hi Everybody,

Louise I agree with a lot you say in your posting but, (there is always a but) I prefer to not look too far ahead and deal with just one problem at a time. Certainly we have a difficult time ahead of us but it is up to us all to not let it bring us down completely. We could worry about losing our jobs but what will worry do, it won't stop it from happening. On the other hand you may be the one that keeps their job so why did you worry in the first instance. Deal with everything as it "crops up"

On the positive side, recession can be a good thing, especially if you have been silly enough to try to keep up with the neighbours, now the pressure is off for the neighbour who has it (they think) and the neighbour who thought they had to have it just to be equal. Now maybe those neighbours in question may become friends and help eachother, am I making sense.

Good comes our of bad!

Anne

Of course I dont believe every thing that will appear on our newspapers. A lot of stuff has happened in the last few years that without the news we would still be in the dark and be still listening to that bunch of nitwits the like's of the government and the church. You need only to look at the older generation to see the point I am making.

Alo.

Hi Alo,

What's wrong with living "in the dark" at least that way you are not being influenced by others, I have a "good head on my shoulders" and I can deal with whatever relates to me and anything else IS somebody's business.

Some years ago I read the front page of the evening newspaper and it said, the firm I worked for was said to be closed down and gone out of business. I was sitting in my office at the time, need I say more.

Newspapers and news on television or radio only serves to spread anxiety, the very complaint we the writers to this forum want to avoid, think about!

The poster with no name 6/1, believes its better to bury your head in the sand than read the newspapers.

Its a great pity that Bertie Ahern took the same attitude.

As far back as 2006 Mary Ellen Synon of the Irish Daily Mail wrote an article warning Bertie to act quickly and consentrate on saving the job losses of the manufacturing industry that we were loosing at the rate of noughts to foreign countries and to draw a halt on the building frenzy.

She warned him that we were just buying and selling houses amongst ourselves and that it could not last. She also advised him to stop the tax incentive to builders and to put a cap on the 100% bank loans before it was too late.

She also pointed out to him the rocky state of the US market that would implode with serious implications for this country i.e. the american multinationals pulling out of Ireland. This is her quote "If you think 2008 is going to be bad, you aint seen nothing yet for 2009".

Did Bertie listen!!! ........ Go figure!

Bertie the ostrich ?

We`ll all vote for him when he trys for the Aras. (I`ll be an exception )

Anyone know how much the SSIA scheme cost the state ?

Wonder if we could do with this money now ?

Luas overrun 500m Port tunnel overrun 400m Evoting 50m ......>

Dear ANN Poster No 28,

In reply to my posting Anonymous poster no. 28. If I want to talk or get a message through to Bertie Aherne I would not go around the houses ie writing letters in the Newspaper I contact the person in question. I do not bury my head in the sand, on the contrary I look for the facts, I do not rely on or am I innocent enough to believe unsubstantiated paragraphs I read in a newspaper. When I use the word unsubstantiated paragraphs I do not mean Ellen's piece in the Daily Mail I mean news in general.

I do my own investigating, if I need facts I will investigate the situation myself and act on that, I will not act on another's interpretation of the facts.

Hi to post dated 6//1/2009 @ 15:16

Whoever you are you addressed this post dated as above to me without a name to your post I would prefer if you put a name as it helps me in a big way to respond. When you put a name [nonymous]is better than blank as much as I would love to respond to your post I wont untill you start putting a name to what you write.

Regds Alo.

Hi Guys,

What do you think we should do about the current situation ie Dell etc. I don't have a clue but I am open to solutions and I will back it and do all I can to help, but please no moaning and negativity please, we have enough of that lets move on.

All the best Anne

P.S. "Alo" would you please use your spell checker, it is very irritating.

Hi Anne

I dont really have a "business head" as they say so I am unsure what can be done. Will they at least receive redundancy?

Thank's for that Anne,You might spell it for me .

Hi Lou,

From reading your postings over the months, I know you have a good business head and I knew you would be the first to try to help because you don't sit around moaning.

I believe they are getting a very bad settlement i.e. calculated on basic hourly rate which they say is low. I mentioned Dell because it is all over the news and I would say newspapers also so instead of just talking about the news why don't we try to change it.

Regards Anne.

While the situation at Dell is very bad for both the workers and for Limerick, to be fair it is not exactly news as the Dell move has been widely know in both the industry itself and associated industries for a long time. The redundancy package consists of 5 weeks per year.

Anne, I don't think there is a spell checker facility on here, unless I haven't spotted it.

Maria

Hi Anne thanks for the lovely comment. To be honest there is little that one person can do but many head together perhaps? Obviously the first thing I thought was "boycott" but that has so much negativity attached to it, and anyway, how much can one person boycott a company that size? I am not in a position to buy a home comp, and the one that work has kindly provided is Dell :/

On a more general level, I would like to see the introduction of some form of legislation that would prevent companies from pulling out of Ireland for cheaper labour. Perhaps they could provide more incentives for staying? Also, do you think they could introduce legislation that meant that if a company was in Ireland for X amount of years, that they would have to pay off each employee a certain amount for each year that they served before the move? Not redundancy, this payout would have to be higher to provide an incentive for staying? Or could they put measures in place to ensure that if a company ups and leaves simply for cheaper labour, that they would have to pay a large tax on any goods that they sell OUTSIDE of the new location? I think for future reference, the key is to provide incentives to stay and measures that will deter them from going...? Maybe that is unrealisitic I dont know. Perhaps that is why I am not in government! It is a tough one because as EU members we should be able to work together to ensure that one country does not undercut another re pay demands, but the cost of living can differ so hugely from one country to another, it would be impossible to control.

All of these ideas are too late to help those currently affected. I am not sure what can be done. Of course with the current economic climate, a lot of people are just thinking about their own backs, and as such, are not thinking of others who have had more devastating blows.

Do you have any ideas Anne?

Regards and best wishes, Lou x

Anne I did not notice the no name on your post the first time because I make a point of not replying that do not have a name on it. However I accept your explanation and on my side it is forgotten about. On the question of spell check yes I have one but did not bother to use it but I will from now on.

Alo

Hi Lou,

To be honest, I don't know what we can do as I said in my posting but your letter has certainly given us food for thought. I agree with you we cannot do anything to prevent the redundancies in Dell but maybe the neighbours in their area can, like fund raising etc.

At least my posting and your reply has hopefully got the "grey matter" going in all who contribute to this forum and we did manage to change the subject.

Thanks for your thoughts Lou.

Regards, Anne.

Hi anne, I don't think there is a spellchecker on here - as in, on the irishhealth website. As for spellchckers on all computers. Well it really depends on what you have installed or what you're accessing.

Hi Lou, I think the govt are putting a package in place in Dell's absence now but I didn't get all the details. Legislation attempting to prevent companies from pulling out of Ireland for cheaper labour would be contrary to competition law and certainly in contravention of EU law. The IDA were providing tax incentives for years but cheaper labour and runnign costs are just more attractive. The pay out you mention could be a good idea, unles companies started to see it as a disincentive to set up here in the first place. It would depend on the terms of course.With regard to tax on any goods that they sell OUTSIDE of the new location - this again would depend on local laws but certainly may be counter to competition laws within the EU as it would pretty much amount to a trade tariff. I agree, as EU members we should be able to work together to ensure that one country does not undercut another but the cost of living differs so much, it is impossible to control.

Maria

Hey all, this just in from RTE news website:

"Moves are to be made to try to help the 1,900 workers at Dell in Limerick who are to lose their jobs.

Irish MEPs are meeting the EU Commissioner for Employment later today to see if some of the €500m available under the European Globalisation Adjustment Fund can be channelled to the Dell workers.

The Government is applying for the EU assistance to help workers when the computer giant transfers its manufacturing operation to Poland."

Just heard that last night Lou. Great news

I also heard this morning that there are moves by some housing group (can't remember the name, sorry) to have the government help young families who were lent money in the sub-prime market in a way which was irresponsible by their lenders and are now in trouble with their mortgages.

It would be good to see the govt helping ordinary people, families, workers etc given that they provided a bail-out option for the banks.

Maria

Hi Lou,

A bit of good news and maybe new jobs in the area will follow. Thanks for relaying that.

Regards Anne.

Here's a question for you.

How much of the Lotto money is going to SPORT?

Feck all.

It`s been channeled into social welfare, health etc.....

Maybe we should have a freedom of information question to the Govt as to where exactly these funds are going. I would love if it was channeled into Focus, St Vincent de Paul, Suicide support groups etc.

Rant over

Hammer,

Good point your are not ranting as far as I am concerned. The money from the Lotto should go into Focus Ireland, Simon, V.DeP we have lots of our people on the streets of Ireland freezing at night and while our soup, blankets etc. cover the immediate needs, we need to get them into housing, shelter etc. It is in my nature to be optimistic but these times are testing or (back on tract) a challenge!

regards,

Anne.

Good point Hammer. That fact that we need the lotto to support our health and social welfare systems is very telling. With homelessness, shelter and housing is an immediate need but we also ned to tackle the causes of homelessness otherwise we aren't really solving anything

"2007 generated a record level of funding for distribution to good causes throughout Ireland. A total of €245.5 million was raised for good causes, up €28 million from €217.5 million in 2006. This is the largest amount ever raised by the National Lottery in a single year and brings the total amount raised in the 20 years since the establishment of the National Lottery to over €2.85 billion." - check the lotto website for details of recipients before you make unfounded claims!

OK lets have a look what good is coming from the doom /gloom. Interest rates are down and more good news they fell again today and as far I am aware it is being passed on.

Petrol/diesel 96.9. The best one in my view people are starting to buy bicycles. No need to to the gym as much. I suppose a lot of us now know what a lot of the banks were up to. I feel very sorry for the people who lost their jobs and there are a lot. But all that has happened in the last few months, is it a higher power who may be reminding us that we are losing the plot?

Well, well, well!

Yes, Anne. I do agree. Lotto money should be channelled into the causes you and the others mention, and into sports facilities for young people too.

""is it a higher power who may be reminding us that we are losing the plot?""

It could well be, it could well be.

As I said on another discussion, let us hope some good eventually comes out of this.

Patricia

I was delighted when a listener texted the Pat Kenny show last week to tell Micheal Martin 'that the smokers of Ireland were the only ones keeping the economy going' and the snivelling creep replied by saying that 'he is welcomed by a guard of honour whenever he visits public buildings'. (in his dreams) I wish he would dare visit the smoking area of our locol pub where he wouldnt be left under any illusions. Maybe on his visit to Cuba he might learn how to impose a 'democratic' smoking ban, that is if the smell of a cuban cigar doesent make him sick.

What you say is quite correct, Maria. And business is business, and generally big businesses are not charitable organisations. That is how the world is. They will go where salaries are lower (while no doubt taking into consideration other factors, like the type of workforce available and so on). I understand that computer sales in general have fallen too, and competition must be pretty fierce. And, prices of computers have really fallen.

Salaries are lower in other countries where cost of living is a fraction of ours. So workers there take that salary.

Patricia

Patricia,

I'll let you in on a little secret re the higher power, I'm not sure either, but I sure as hell love the "debates" on Irish Health, ah shucks! I won't get a job from them now because they know I will do it for nothing, still I always have the drink in Leinster House and the you are invited to celebrate my first book being published !!! You're a dark one, you are!

Regards Anne

Hee hee Anne. "I fly like a butterfly and sting like a bee."

I am the terror of internet "trolls".

Patricia

Anne, Lou and friends:

I will no longer be contributing to this site. It is not a suitable place for discussion, and battle-grounds are really not my thing.

I would like to put up an email address for those of you who might like to contact me, but I feel that I do not want to get unwanted mail from certain quarters.

It is rather disappointing. I subscribed here quite a number of years back, and thought it was interesting.

All the best to you all.

Keep well and safe.

Patricia

Well folks....sorry to be the bearer of bad news....but the machinations of the politicians have insured that the only 'optimists' re 2009 will be:

Those millionnaires who pay little or no tax-prsi....thanks to Haughey!

Those who are giving themselves bonuses and allowances paid for by we poor eejits.

Those many politicians/higher civil servants/CEOs....retiring on 6 figure sums + increasing pensions !!

Keep an eye on the Anglo/ banks/ golden circle of 10 fiasco !

Also, ask yourselves.....what was Cowen at when he was Min for Finance...and does anybody think the overpensioned Ahearn knew nothing ??

If these wonderful 'citizens' of the golden circle are not named....you can be sure there's a political connection ! 

Since I'm homeless....any body know a bank thats willing to give me a 'free' mortgage' ??....or do I have to be 'connected' to get that favour ??

Optimistic ? yer havin' a laugh !!!

Patricia,

Very disappointed to see you go as you were always in there with some thing sensible to add and for that reason I would like to see you change your mind.

Regards/best wishes.

Alo.

Hi Patricia,

I look on you as a dear friend even though we have never met, you have inspired me so I do hope you will make contact again or maybe I will find another outlet for my thoughts. I will check in tomorrow and only hope that your name comes up on the discussions that really appreciate your help.

until then, your friend

Anne

Patricia it will be sad to see you go

Thank you, Alo, for kindly saying that!  Thank you. It is much appreciated.  I am just in the process of unsubscribing, but I did put up an email on the "anxiety" thread, in case anyone would like to have it.

Stay safe all

Patricia

I THINK WILL BE OK IN 2010.

Brandy, you couldnt be the bearer of bad news any more than what we're going through. The dogs in the street knew that the golden circle have been propping up Fianna Fail since Charlie Haughey's time but upped to full volume under Bertie's watch, just look at the unsustainable concrete jungle Ireland has become while he was in charge, not to mention his sell out of our sovereignity to the EU to satisfy his lust for power, and it was power only that motivated Mr Nice Guy. A massive clearout of FF is the only way forward at this stage to bring credability back to this country. Even though there's not much to hope for with the lot in opposition, but a change at this stage couldnt be much worse. To go with the old saying 'a change is as good as a rest'!!

Why are we in this situation with our government? Two things come to my mind as to why we have this bunch of cowboys. How many of you that do not like the present government voted in the last election? How many young people went out to vote? The second point it is very easy to sway the few that do go out with a extra few euro in the children allowance. All of my family always cast our vote on voting day. There is no excuse for anyone not voting. Until such time that every one who are entitled to vote go out to vote we will never have a government that will govern not just for the rich but for every man woman and child in Ireland

Alo.

And I bet Brandy, being one of the little people you had to pay back the 500 sharpish, or end up doing time, unlike certain members of the golden elite with friends in high places.

Brandy just a little bit of advice-they cannot actually take you to court for not repaying something that was THEIR mistake. The only way they can claw back that money is if you ever claim welfare again. They can stop it at an agreed weekly rate. Provided you didn't actively sign on and deceive them then it was their mistake and they cannot hold you accountable in the courts, although they will try to bully you with threatening letters.

Indeed Brandy, and I'd say that this govt probably will jail a few because of public outrage, but you can be sure they will find some scapegoat that will do them less harm or have nothing on them and are not really a part of the golden circle, or some one that does not agree with them.

And Brandy, is it any wonder that 'all intelligent and right thinking people' are taking to the streets over the corruption in high places especially when its the ordinary man thats taking the hit of half truths, misinformation and spin. Now the ordinary irish citizen has to take the hit again by being put through more scrunity and interrogation, at the most stressful time of their lives when they lose their job, at the dole office because of more fraud and mismanagement by this govt due their free for all open borders policy of the last 10 years. They are trying to clamp down on this now, again when the horse has bolted, by trying to encourage foreign migrants to go back home, (as if) especially when most have been given residency at this stage. What amazes me about the whole thing is, why wasnt all this scrunity and control put into effect when it could have been managed in a practical manner and when the money was flowing during the so called celtic tiger years. Does integrity, transperancy and accountability only mean what it says on the tin and come into play when there is a lack of money and screaming from the masses. I realise that this govt's hands are tied in certain respects as they are pandering to EU directives, and this is more probably part of the problem, but you only have to look at Norway, Denmark or Sweden to see how they managed it better by not being lap dogs for the EU. We will probably now be told that we are in such a bad position that we will have to vote yes for the upcoming rerun of the Lisbon treaty. There's something amiss, it all seems a mockery to me. For once Bertie was right, its all smokes and daggers.