Do you agree with the morning after pill being made available in pharmacies?
How did this end up as a religious discussion? Surely it is a no-brainer? The MAP should be available OTC for obvious reasons. We need to prevent unwanted pregnancies and not make it cost prohibitive to do so.
Nobody is forced to take it but for those that choose to, it should be available to them. It's nobody elses business at the end of the day!
Oh and Jamie post 50 (the one you are refusing to answer) asserts the fact that you state: (and I quote)
"Debating what people call themselves is pointless. I'll just be repeating myself"
after spending up to twenty posts telling ME that I should not call myself a Catholic. I was simply pointing out the irony, not trolling, however if you dont wish to respond to the point raised in 50 then dont feel you have to. I think your lack of answer says it all.
Ah Jamie come on now, accusing people of not reading previous posts because they disagree with you, accusing people of telling you what you cannot post when they query the relevance of your arguments and now accusing me of "having a problem understanding other people's posts" because (I suspect) you simply have very little left to say. How childish.
Buzz, if the word "hypocrisy" is the insult you're referring to, maybe you should find out its meaning. It's an accurate description of you based on your posts and information you have given here. But I won't be replying to the rest of post 50 and 52, you're obviously trolling or have a problem understanding other peoples posts.
Ah Jamie resorting to insults I see. How mature. And there was me thinking we had all left the playground. Seems some of us are still there. The posts that you refer to were actually me DEFENDING MYSELF against your ridiculous and irrelevant accusations. YOU however, were the one throwing the ridiculous and irrelevant accusations, hence my point still stands.
Again with the "stop telling me what to post" when what you actually mean is "stop pointing out the irrelevance and idiocy of my posts". Sigh...
Buzz, 1. I never called you a "bad catholic". Nice to see you managed to get confused again, even in such a short post. 2. I happen to think it's on topic, there you go again telling people what to post. 3. If you do think it's off topic you'll also agree that posts 3, 10, 14, 23, 31, 32, 33, 38, 40, 41, 45 and 48 are off topic?But you do have a history of hypocrisy.
"this is an internet poll. It's not a vote for on weather this should be legal or not. People who vote no aren't making decisions about health services for others."
That is possibly the most ridiculous thing I have heard so far today, though it's early yet. Of course Irish health are not going to approach the government and say "here, all these people agree with x,y,z so you'd better make it legal or else...". The poll however, IS indicative of how people would most likely vote given the choice.
"Debating what people call themselves is pointless. I'll just be repeating myself."
Now THAT is the most ridiculous thing I have heard Aside from the fact that it is YOU who fuelled the entire "what Buzz should or should not call herself" debate, you also repeated yourself MANY times. Perhaps you should have asserted and followed this piece of common sense a few posts back.
J, this is an internet poll. It's not a vote for on weather this should be legal or not. People who vote no aren't making decisions about health services for others. Debating what people call themselves is pointless. I'll just be repeating myself.
Gosh I am a BAD Catholic AND I dont know what a troll is! Why dont I just go and hide in shame!
Your accusations remain completely unrelated to the discussion in hand.
By implying that catholics of any denomination are entitled to oppose the provision of the MAP, you are in fact entitling them with the right to make decisions about the health services offered to others, that is obvious and they do not have that right and nor do you. That is up to the heath authority.
They are entitled not to use contraceptives if that is their choice - as is anyone by the way but they are not entitled to oppose it for others and not even you can give them that right.
Oh you can tell people what they can and cannot call themselves - you can say anything you like but that doe snot make your comment remotely relevant and nor does it mean anyone will take the slightest notice of you. Indeed there are roman catholics who do not believe in the virgin birth (I don't know what other catholic policies are on it so I cannot comment on anglicans) next and regard themselves as roman catholic and you telling them otherwise will not make the slightest bit of difference. - From J.
My god, I really am losing the will to live buzz. Have you noticed that every anonymous poster has the same amount of posts? Do you think J has made 11,768 posts and calls themselves Chris or Maura in other threads? You don't even know what a troll is, as usual your explanation is wrong. J, who said a catholic can make decisions for other people? The whole point of bring catholics into this debate was because catholics shouldn't use contraception. As for what people can call themselves, I said before you can call yourself an apple, it doesn't mean you are one. And of course I can tell people what they can and cannot call themselves. There'll be people coming on here saying they don't believe in the virgin birth next and they'll still insist on being called Catholic. I suppose I won't be entitled to tell them they're not?
"Buzz, i'm not going to answer this again"
Since you have not actually specified what "this" is can I assume you are talking about my question as to how (or indeed WHY) you are linking my catholic hypocrisy with the MAP being OTC? Jamie, never mind answering it "again" - try answering it for the first time!
The anonymous we are both referring to is the one that you have been nattering away to for the last twenty odd posts so please dont pretend to be confused because the only possible gripe you have left to use is someone's lack of username. Oh and a little hint, you can easily distinguish one anonymous from another by looking at how many posts they have made. Sorry I should have mentioned that - I assumed it would fall under your category of "self-explanatory and quite obvious" - apparently only questions that you do not wish to answer are slotted in there.
I can assure you I am not trolling. An internet troll is someone who hops from one thread to another posting random inflammatory remarks, and does not wait around for a reply. My posts here are very obviously in response to those of yours and others hence they are not random. Perhaps you find them irritating because I share a different viewpoint but this is not the same as inflammatory.
Jamie, I don't know where you went to school but I went to school in the 70's and there was no catechism in use and my niece is in school at the moment and they are not using any catechism. Yes, a lot of roman catholics (other catholic denomination do not have the same rules about contraception) use contraception, proba bly becuase they are normal intellegent people who can reason and use logic and know they don;t have to follow every edict issued by the theocrats. However where exactly have I said I wanted to call myself a roman catholic? As for "I don't argue with people without a username" what a pathetic copout. Call me J if you wish and I shall sign myself such - should save on confusion for you. But as I have already explained to you, the cathoic edict on contraception does not entitle any catholic to make decison about the health servoces offerned to anyone else. Hence, the two are not connected. Nor incidentally does it entitle you to tell people what they can and cannot call themselves. - From J.
Buzz, i'm not going to answer this again, but if you want to know how and why different points were made in this discussion read through the thread and follow the posts. And several threads Anonymous posters appear and on numerous occasions they're asked to post under a username. How many different "Anonymous" post on a thread? you can't know, therefore you can't properly debate. I'm not sure if you're trolling, but it's getting boring having to spell out every little thing (such as the point of usernames) to you on each thread. For future notice, I'll ignore any of your questions that were anwered already, completely obvious or are self explanatory.
In light of recent happenings in the Political realm, one wonders what the future holds for Healthcare in the country, With bated breath we wait.
Those who dare to fail miserably can achieve greatly
Jamie having a go at someone because of a lack of username is a little pedantic. The idea that you do not know who you are replying to is somewhat silly given that you have clearly been partaking in the discussion with "anonymous" and have encountered little confusion, as demonstrated by your ability to reply to their posts.
I wonder if we were to put our full names and photos on our profiles, as opposed to a first name would we be as forthcoming in our posts??
Jamie, feel free to "accept" an imaginary apology if it makes you feel better about yourself
Of course I am aware that the Catholic church does not support the use of contraception, my point was (and still is) that you have somehow managed to link MY worthiness as a Catholic with the MAP being made available OTC. Fair enough if you want to point out that I call myself a Catholic and do not follow the teachings of the catholic church (but by my own admission this is the case and I am not afraid to admit it) - the point is, why do you KEEP harping on about it? We both agree that I am not a good Catholic! We have both pointed out that I call myself a Catholic and do not practice all they preach - my bad Now can you please get over it, I have.
Incidentally if taking responsibility for my sexual health makes me a hypocrite I would rather be a hypocrite. No point having morals and hugging the altar if I have ten kids hanging out of me and a bun in the oven.
#36 - You are aware that catechism is on their website? It's still used today. I was in primary school in the late 80s and it was thought evey day for 30 minutes. And I know a lot of "catholics" use contraception, but it's completely hypocrital. The church clearly says don't do it, so if you want to call yourself a catholic, follow their rules. Perhaps you should get a username so you can join a debate properly? I don't argue with people without a username, it's impossible to tell who's posting what, if there's 2 users and one is contradicting the other etc etc. #37 - Kickstar, are you actually giving out to me for what the church doesn't teach about being sexually assaulted by a priest? I have to be careful what I write, you might take one line and quote it out of context. You're right about not getting into a bible debate, because if you wanted to start one about men being equal to women you'd get slaughtered. #38 - Buzz, if you read previous posts you'll see how catholicism and non use of contraception are linked. And to be honest, if you can't make the connection or never knew that catholics weren't supposed to use contraception, you probably need a lot of things explained to you. And debates evolve, very rarely will they stick to the exact wording of the subject. You have obviously admitted in your last point that you actually have being telling people what they can and cant post. Apology accepted.
Jamie if you dont think I challenged any of your points then why do you keep coming back at me with replies?
"#33, You really want to know the link between contraception and the church? A church that 85% of our country say they are members of? I feel that the catholic church telling people not to use contraception is a valid point in this debate, but you're suggesting that it's not"
I'm afraid you're wrong there Jamie. I wanted to know the link between how good a catholic I am and the title of the debate (as I have already asked you twice, but you are determined to avoid the question at all costs it would seem!)
"and should be brought to a different thread."
Again, I suggested that if you have a problem with me not being a devout Catholic, YOU should bring that to a different, more relevant thread. After all, a thread entitled "Do you agree with the MAP being made available in pharmacies" is hardly the place to bash someone because they are not practising their religion, is it?
"Stop telling people what they can and can't post"
Again, I was suggesting that you stick to the argument at hand.
Yes it is true that posts are read by moderators, and we do not have the power to decide what should or should not be posted but Jamie my messages were read and posted...so are you now telling me that they shouldnt have been? Pot and kettle anyone?
"not sure what god you're talking about" Yes 'Jamie' I am sure that is True. It is quite painful to read the rubbish that you are peddeling, Does it say anything in the catechism about what you should do when you are sexually assaulted by a priest?? Since this was something that was sure to happen, was it not a little Hypocritical of them not to include important info like this, or perhaps the catechism doesn't cover everything, Also I have a fair idea that this publication was not quite inspired by God or his prophets. The King James Bible is widely accepted as the most accurate translation from the Hebrew and Greek scribes to have ever been achieved, And it says in Genesis 2:23 that when Eve was brought to Adam "And Adam said this is now bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh", sounds pretty equal to me. Eve may have been created from a Rib but Man was made from the Dust of the Earth. I am not going to enter into a religious tirade on this site would be completely inappropriate, I will just iterate that the Crime that has been perpetrated against Women for centuries, Continues. It takes a Woman to give birth to a Man, We are all born of Women. Jesus Christ himself was born of a Woman.
Those who dare to fail miserably can achieve greatly
Jamie, I don't know how old you are but the catechism has not been used for religious instruction in over 40 years - possibly since shortly after vatican II so what it contains is no longer relevant. Now perhaps you are unique in aligning yourself with the ignornace of a handful of extreme right-wing pre-dominantly U.S. fundamentalists in taking that particular little story at face value or perhaps you get your kicks from attempting to be provocative but either way I am sure that you are very well aware that that all normal logical people take that for what it is - a parable and their views corespond with the inalienable principles of human rights accorded to by all developed societes.
Certain branches of the catholic church most certainly do not tell people not to use contracpetion, the roman catholic church however does tell people not to use contraception but this does not confer on anyone the right to decide on health servoces for anyone else, then religion clearly is not a valid point in this debate.As even I pointed out, the vast majority of romans catholics, who make up 78% of the population do not follow all of the regulation invented and re-invented by the management of that particular organisation and still call themsleves catholic, probably because they are logical deductive reasoning people who can make up their own minds rather than sheep.
#32, I don't think you challenged any of my points. #33, You really want to know the link between contraception and the church? A church that 85% of our country say they are members of? I feel that the catholic church telling people not to use contraception is a valid point in this debate, but you're suggesting that it's not, and should be brought to a different thread. Stop telling people what they can and can't post, each post is read by the moderators and they can decide that. You should remove the word "practising" from that last paragraph for it to be accurate. Not only do you not practice, but you don't follow their rules, don't believe some of what they say but you insist you still be called "Catholic". Lucky you don't ask for respect for that.
Cynic, catechism instructs catholics to read the bible. Kickstar, not sure what god you're talking about, but according to the bible God made man first. As an after thought, he decided man needed a helper so took a bit of a rib from him to make woman. That doesn't sound equal to me. And women are clearly second class citizens according to the bible.
Jamie, since you obviously cannot find the "hidden" question in point number 23, it goes like this:
Why have you spent the last God knows how many posts discussing religion on a thread entitled "Do you agree with the MAP being made available in pharmacies"?
It is obviously something you feel rather strongly about, perhaps you should start another thread entitled "people not taking their religion seriously"
I KNOW I dont take my religion seriously, and by my own admission am not a practising catholic - where have I stated otherwise? Moreover, where have I asked to be respected for this??
Thanks for the concern Cynic but I can assure you I am not "wound up" unless defending ones posts or challenging anothers is now defined as such.
There are greater things in life to be wound up about, but certainly a discussion board is not one of them. This does not mean of course that we are all to act the marshmallow and slob about pansying to other people's views just to be nice or not "wound up"
No Jamie I am not telling what you can or cannot post, however I have noticed you resort to this accusation when your points are challenged. If you want to debate like that fine, but dont expect anyone to respect YOU.
God made Men and Women Equal, They are born equal, A society led by the Church (and back when this happened there was only one church) made Women second class Citizens, and doomed them to centuries of abuse.
Those who dare to fail miserably can achieve greatly
The Catholic Church don't encourage people to read the Bible as they feel it is open to misenterpatation, it is the protestant Churches who traditionally study the Bible at their Sunday Schools!
Have you learnt anything? you are still allowing yourself to be wound up by others!
Of course you don't need to justify yourself to me, if you're happy continuing calling yourself a catholic in complete ignorance that's fine, but don't expect anyone to respect that. And if you have a problem with me discussing a valid argument and you're sick of my posts, just scroll on past them and don't reply. I can't answer your question in post #23 because I don't know what it is. Either you're telling me what I can or can't post, or that I have some sort of hidden agenda. Either way, as usual with almost all your posts, you're wrong in both cases. You can't tell people what to post, and I have no hidden agenda.
Jamie, if you read over my posts, you will find that nowhere in any post did I ever say I believed I was a catholic - roman or otherwise. I simply said and the vast majority of catholics will bear this out, that a sizeable majority of roman catholics do not believe in every single regulation invented by the management of that particular organisation and nor do they make an apology for that. If you have a problem with that, take it up with the sizeable majority and as buzz, said, - good luck with that, seeing as you seem to be one appointing yourself as judge and jury over what roman cahtolics should or shouldn't do by instructing people you don't know on internet discussions to "recognise you are sinning and repent". Whether religion is or isn't a club is not of the slightest interest to me but I know that what it isn't is some sort of mantle of arrogance to allow its members to dictate what sort of health services should be available to the women of the country.
This goes out to all the religious rhetoric fans.
lads if you follow the main commandments,what do they say,
forget the rest of the book,
they are guidelines ,pure and simple.
The boys on here complaining about the MAP,should,nt be.
the woman is all powerful,if she wants a child ,she will bloody have one.
Men don't really come into it anymore.
Those men that do want to be Dads and welcome the idea fine,you are there for support,that is all.
hi cant belive the comments im reading-do people read the papers. anyone who thinks people wait till marriage for sex is kidding themselves i am ashamed to be a catholic. the church is a disgrac.
Jamie you were obviously reading point 14 from a different thread. I was not justifying my actions using the percieved shortcomings of others (I do not actually need to justify myself to you anyway) - I was simply pointing out how little you stand to achieve by squabbling with ONE poster on an internet thread about this grievance against organised religion that you obviously feel so very strongly about. (That IS why you have spent the past twenty posts discussing it right? because you feel strongly about it? I cannot think of any other reason you would devote so much time to it, unless of course there was another reason why you are discussing it to death on a thread entitled "do you agree with the MAP being made available in pharmacies?")
VaticanII deemed contraception was wrong - thereby going against the advice of their own vatican council, becuase of two very obvious reasons - Power and Control, they did not want women to have the power of their own fertility and if couples are compelled to have more chidren than they can look after, they will be condemned to poverty and the poor are easier to control.
Anon #13, if you believe you are a catholic and you go against their rules, it's complete hyporacsy. Religion isn't a club where you can make up rules for yourself and decide what to break or not. How about "I'm a catholic, but I don't believe the ressurection". You're not catholic, unless you recognise you are sinning and repent. Reminds me of Father Ted when Ted is explaning to Dougal about the holy trinity and Dougal says "Ah now ted, you don't really believe all that". Buzz #14, the attitude that if people do something that's wrong, so it's pointless to argue about and I'll just go along with it is pathetic.
I'm with Alo, tolerance ahead of hostility ! Healthy debate is a good thing as long as it stops there !
Yes i do,because girls get drunk and meet complete arses,
who do not care in the slightest, if they became dads,
and would be as useful as a pothole,
give women everywhere their pride back give them the afterpill free.
then they wont be crap plural parents.
the settled man is always a deterent unless well paid.
What's the difference between going to a pharmacist or a doctor for this pill?
Why do people have to be so hostile to those who think differently from them? Love, tolerance, truth are for all.