Abortion challenge in High Court
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This discussion is now closed.
Anonymous · 14 May 2007True Emmy, but which doctor is going to take that risk?
emmy · 12 May 2007Exactly Alice, since it is not illegal there is no law to procecute you. Secondly ehausted doc, since there is no law in place women who need an abortion to save their life are denied it in this country. It is not provided to women with serious heart conditions or those with cancer. To deny women medical treatment where there pregnancy is endangering their life is murder.
Despite lack of legislation, you could technically still provide it on grounds that she would die otherwise, they could not take you to court, although if they did it might encourage the government to legislate. You could not be convicted and certainly you could not be struck off.
Anonymous · 11 May 2007Yes, rick, of course it would be more humane and eminently sensible. Except perhaps the hospital she attended might be surrounded by so call 'pro-life' cranks wielding placards and shouting slogans.
ExhaustedDoc, the reason why doctors cannot provide the safe legal abortion which the people of this country voted for under certain conditions via referendum is not because it is in fact illegal, it is because it was never legislated for.
ExhaustedDoc · 10 May 2007Emmy, have you ever seen the film Vera Drake? No matter how much any medical staff in this country would wish to be able to provide safe and legal abortion in a compassionate environment to any woman who is in need, it is illegal for us to do so and we would be struck off and prosecuted. In addition, there is no training or experience in termination procedures here and this is a huge issue also. I don't think I know many doctors who are "bible wielding 'we must do as much physical and psychological damage as humanly possible in the name of the mother church' excuse for medical staff", but most that I know are law abiding citizens. The fact is that abortion badly needs to be legalised here for specific situations to avoid further trauma and hardship for women in this country, but don't blame the doctors. The Family Planning association, many of whom are doctors, are currently campaiging for this, and they run family planning courses for docs, including information on abortion and how to provide information if we think the situation warrants it.
rick · 09 May 2007However no one has suggested that it would be more humane for the girl to have the procedure here!
An Irish solution to an an Irish problem!?!
Anonymous · 08 May 2007Rick, You say "Abortion leglisation in this country is a mess".
Yep, but its actually none existant.
Imagine ANYONE, let alone a 17 year old minor having to go through the trauma of a court case on top of everything else to get permission to do what we all know is the right thing to do.
What sort of society does that to any human being?
Its a thundering disgrace.
Shame on the nameless, faceless power manic person or people in the HSE who pushed this girl to this extreme. Thank God she has her Mother to support her through this terrible time.
Its all just appalling.
rick · 08 May 2007I am in agreement with most of the posts here and i think it is ethically correct that the young girl be allowed travel.At time of writing,it appears that the legal situation will be along these lines also.
Unfortunately,what is ethically correct and legally correct do not always go hand in hand.Abortion leglisation in this country is a mess.
Anonymous · 08 May 2007Rick, it is the LAW, in this country that everyone has the right to travel.
It is the law that anyone over 16 is entitld to consent to medical treatment without the knowledge or consent of their parents or guardians.
It is a the law that a doctor can refer a patient for medical treatment abroad.
The HSE cannot prevent someone travelling to another EU country for a legal medical procedure. Can you imagine if this unfortunate girl had cancer and needed treatment abroad. The HSE would be tripping over themselves to ensure that she was treated and rightly so.
It is medical fact that the foetus, in this instance, is brain dead and such cannot survive outside the womb.
I know it is the belief of some that a woman cedes all her rights to a foetus - including the right to her own life and health, when she gets pregnant. But a foetus who cannot live?? A Twisted Fundamentalism gone mad.
It would be bad enough that she is being forced to travel but the very group that should be protecting her are trying to prevent her from travelling and forcing her to go into court to protect her own rights.
Good grief Emmy, is that that case - the HSE only took her into care when she mentioned she was having an abortion? How many minors (16 & 17 year olds) in this country go have abortions with or without their parents knowledge. Dozens, maybe more. Is the HSE going to set up some sort of witch-hunt to take them all captive?
I am very interested Emmy, in your theory / ideas that birth - an already horrendus experience is excerbated by our bible wielding 'we must do as much physical and pschyological damage as humanly possible in the name of the mother church' excuse for medical staff in this country.
Is this in comparison to other EU countries or the U.S.
Luce · 07 May 2007I can not believe that a young girl is being forced against her will to continue with a pregnancy that can only end in heartache.
Who the hell do the HSE think they are, how dare they force her to put her body through such a trauma, and don't even get me started on the psycological effects that this will have on her for the rest of her life.
We are always the first to condemn barbaric behaviour, and I bet the HSE would in no way condem abuse of another human being, but what exactly is this classed as if not the abuse of a 17 year old girs mind and body?
emmy · 05 May 2007This girl was living with her boyfriend and his family, she was only taken into care when she mentioned to a social worker that she was going to England for an abortion. The social worker immediately informed the HSE and effectively kidnapped her and is holding her hostage in an attempt to keep a dead fetus incubated to term!
Tell me Rick what is so legal and ethical about that?
Who's going to be next?
I agree with you Alex, we need to start focusing on the human rights of individual women and girls.
And yes we are humans and superior zygotes and dead fetuses! Those who believe women are merely incubators and unworthy of recognition and dignity as people in our own right are the ones driving the arguments, social policy, medical practice and the media. They shout very loudly and intimidate polititians and doctors who attempt to focus on the real points of argument here. Everybody goes along with them for fear of being their next target for harrassment and bullying.
The media needs to stop indulging these fascists and expose their true ideology and tactics and how it impacts on the medical treatment (or lack thereof) of pregnant women.
Pregnant women have the right to feel safe and know that they will recieve any necessary medical treatment, they should not have to worry that they will be next to be sacrificied at the alter of the holy catholic church as dictated by their ferocious advocates.
Supporters of women's rights should stop apologising, it is those who have reduced a woman's worth as less worthy than a man's sperm who should feel guilty expressing their warped sadism wrapped up in flowery platitudes to hide the true horror their ideology creates when imposed in the real lives of real women.
As I said before, I believe women have the right to martyer themselves before whatever alter they choose, whether it is the catholic church or the spagetti monster.
The chosen delusions and insanity of a few should not be imposed on the rest of us.
Anonymous · 04 May 2007The HSE are supposed to be looking after this young girl and not adding to her woes.
They could have just as easily given her back into the care of her Mother and let her go for her abortion instead of taking her to court, preventing her from getting a passport and allowing this to get into the public forum.
WHO ARE THE HSE? Who exactly took this stance to stop this girl?
If she was having an ectopic pregnancy then they would have had to deal with it.
I hope her Mother and herself, sue the ass off the HSE for what they are putting her through.
She wasn't suicidal to begin with so they are pushing into a state that she could well get suicidal.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the church. It is ALL the making of the HSE who should be taken to task for this incredibly horrendous scenario.
Alex · 04 May 2007If people a concerned about the laws that may prevent this girl from recieving the best possible care, and I think it's crystal clear what that is, you should think about it this way, it's cases like this that set new standards and make legal history. It's no good sitting on our hands saying its tragic but that's the law! We need to make progress not stay in the dark ages and put up with inhumanity in the name of so called morality on these issues. The women of Ireland deserve respect and to be regarded by the medical community and church as people in their own right whether they happen to be pregnent or not. I strongly believe it is the woman who should be protected primarly, after all it is her body ...is'nt it?
Alex · 04 May 2007Sorry Rick but I don't think that it is a pity that this case is in the media, it's only right people are aware of this extremely serious violation of a young girls right to proper health care. This to case to me is not complex this girl deserves to be medically treated to minimise the damage to her body and suffer as little phycological trauma as possible. Surely it is unethetical to force her to continue with the pregnancy and give birth to a baby that cannot live this is pure crulity. I would like to know what sick person is behind the attemps to keep her from travelling and see them removed from their position of power so they can do no further harm to vunerable people. This case is sad and so dissapointing, will we never shake off this religious insanity. I'm not clear on how these people think it's ok to enforce their beliefs on others. Emmy, its like your reading my mind- excellent post.
rick · 04 May 2007Emmy,I think there are ethical and legal issues here and I think everyone will agree that it is very complex and very tragic.Doctors and the HSE cannot practice outside the law-the law in this country that we voted for places special protection on the unborn child.
I agree what you are saying in principle but the legal situation needs to be clarified.It's a pity it's in the media so much
Anonymous · 04 May 2007Emmy, expertly put.
emmy · 04 May 2007It is peverted to force this girl to incubate a dead fetus to term, it is dead already as it has no brain!
You can chop off somebodys head and keep their corpse alive with life support machine. They are still dead!
Women in this country are seen as incubators with no rights independent of a zygote, it's absurd.
Nobody should be forced to continue with a pregnancy, this girl's life will be destroyed and her body ruined. For what? So some religious fundamentalist idiot can spout platitudes about the the sanctity of sacrificing your life for the fuzzy feeling their delusions give them in their heart?
Anti abortion zealots are entitled to martyer themselves, they have no right to inflict their fetus obsession on others.
Doctors in this country need to wake up and start practising medicine, not the catechism of the Holy Catholic Church!
This girl will be tramuatised if forced to continue a dead pregnancy and give birth (an already horrendus experience, excerbated by our pathetic bible wielding 'we must do as much physical and pschyological damage as humanly possible in the name of the mother church' excuse for medical staff in this country.
When this is over she should sue the HSE for attempting to deprive her of her CONSTITUTIONAL right to travel and for whatever distress she suffers as a result.
Jackie · 03 May 2007When will this country take the catholic church out of state affairs? Why is she being treated so barbarically! It's time we came out of the dark ages! Not only should it be an individual right but in many circumstances it should be the only option. I agree with the above comments completely.
Anonymous · 01 May 2007This case proves that this is not a nation which cherises all its citizens equally.
The way that girl is being treated is absolutely apalling.
Shame on the HSE.
Marti · 01 May 2007I think it is absolutely disgusting that a young girl is being forced to continue with a pregnancy that CANNOT produce a live baby. This is not a matter her just choosing not to have a baby - nature has chosen for her and either way she will not have a baby at the end of the pregnancy. The only question is whether she will have to endure the trauma of carrying a baby she knows will not survive for another 5 months.
Anonymous · 01 May 2007This case is absoluely horrific.
Anyone over 16 can consent to medical treatment without their parents or guardians knowledge or consent.
This is the law.
The HSE is attempting to prevent a minor (over 16 and therefore not a child) in their care from travelling to another EU country for a medical service. Therefore attempting to deny her the right to travel - a right enshrined in the constitution and the right to seek a legal medical service - A right every EU citzen has.
The foetus is anencephalic, which means that its chances of survival are nill.
The 17 year old faces a horrendous pregnancy, which she is being forced to endure against her will and again is being forced to face goodness knows what at the delivery, against her will, to give birth to a baby who cannot survive.
Anyone with an ounce of humanity will see this for what it is - a horrific and inhumame way to treat anyone.
This discussion is now closed.