Child rubbing her privates!
Yes, i used to do this as a young child just for the "nice feeling" and i was never abused. I think it's pretty common. It's v sad that your abuser has made you feel bad about anything to do with your body. Have you seen a counsellor about the abuse?
Thanks and sorry for the long post,
Lets just call me "annemarie"
The main point is not to draw attention to it, justignore it and they will grow out of this phase. Lots of children explore because they pick up on the adults negative feelings about it being wrong. Nothing wrong with it at all. Its perfectly natural.
Just don't react to it, let it take its natural course and in time it will sort itself out.
First of all I'd like to suggest that this thread shouldn't have been allowed to get in to the murky arguments over masturbation/religion/child sexuality etc., as this is a much more complicated issue, and one in which people will be much less likely to respect eachother's views!
Children explore their bodies as part of getting to know themselves (and their bodies obviously). But they do touch their genitals not only out of curiosity, but because it feels good as we all know!
"Touching your genitals because it feels good" is just a way of describing masturbation, wouldn't you say? Saying that a child is masturbating is not inappropriate, rather it's an adequate description of what the child is doing. However, we associate masturbation with sexual pleasure and desire, which a child doesn't, until the onset of pubrety. To a child, what they are doing just feels good.
If your child is doing this, please PLEASE don't give out to them as though they'd broken something or picked their nose, as though they'd done something bad or embarassing. Please understand how confusing it will be for a child to hit puberty and be overcome with new desire to touch themselves, yet have their earliest memory of the experience being linked to something bad, wrong and dirty.
Of course, you must get your child to realise that they can't do it in public, which is sad in a way but it just the way society is! Explain to the child that this is their private area, that it belongs to them only and is only for when they are on their own. Like a special treat. Isn't that a much nicer, and healthier way to educate your children about their bodies?
I don't think he's 'clueless' just 'mis-informed', as any good politician is.
Bah...humbug..the Church.... oh..by the way Pete...just in case you were worried, it will not make you go blind, get hairy palms or anything like that. And there is nothing wrong with 'spilling your seed' because there is Plenty more where that came from! (Shall I go into a reproductive biology lesson?)
And hey....masturbation can be useful... how else would one perhaps discover a lump on a testicle? I mean.... it's for purely medical reasons... keeping an eye out for testicular carcinoma, which has a peak incidence at 30 [25-40] (Ok.... technically self-examination is best done after a shower, in a relaxed state...but let's not argue! LOL)
I don't know if lesbians do love it or not - but I know plently of straight women who do.
I admit that this thread did develop a rather disturbing swing to it, and I have looked back on it and would perhaps like to remove some posts, but I don't think that is possible!
It is unfortunate that some people may look upon this forum as 'proof that they are right in their desires and feelings' but in essence this forum has been a frank, open discussion of its members on their own experiences growing up.
It is NOT meant in any way to support or validate the notion that it's ok to destroy the innocence of children. It mearly points out that we [the writers'] as children & teens, did enjoy discovering our bodies.
Re: Catholic upbringing -> it was just a suggestion! I suppose if that's how you feel about it, then that just what suits you. I for example feel the same way about pornography (in any way, shape or form), I don't like it, I don't agree with it and I avoid it as best I can.
With regards to female masturbation.... I can't say I know much about that! I know women masturbate, but always felt it was considerably less than guys.
And i agree with u that it is just a simple curiosity thing, nothing even remotely "pleasurable" got to do with it.
PETE BURNS PINK HANDBAG!!
And my parents were never strict, thats why i told them i was gay when i was 16 and my mam loves that i\'m gay. AND I was never caught doing anything sexual etc. when as a kid no.
It\'s just how i feel naturally. i think if something feels wrong and dirty when ur doing it, then it must be dirty and wrong. i wouldnt feel that way if it was so \"normal\" like fifi says. And i have to diasgree that most women masturbate too, as most of my girlfriends & sisters said they think it is so disgusting for a girl to u know what. I think it\'s mostly lesbians that love masturbating etc.
AND I dont really like masturbating with my boyfriend either, but it seems a lot cleaner than doing it alone. And i think sex is a lot more cleaner tahn u know waht cuz it just feels right.
PETE BURNS HANDBAG!!
Pete: I do find it interesting that you really didn't think at all about sex - either gay or straight - until you were 11. I would actually hazard to say that your are unusual in this regard, and your 'late sexual dev' could be a reason why you still somehow consider masturbation as dirty.
Mary, in Pete's defence I can see how he could consider masturbation dirty. But to me it is no more dirty than sex, and certainly not more dirty than gay sex. You claim not to be a 'good irish catholic boy' which is true... I mean... sexually active gay does Not Equal good Irish catholic LOL BUT I still feel that perhaps the aversion to masturbation - and even it's name - is somehow rooted in well...your catholic upbringing. Technically I'd be Catholic, but that's about as far as it goes. It's like.... He Who Must Not Be Named....
What part of masturbation do you not like???? Seriously? Why do you feel ashamed afterwards? Were you ever 'caught' doing it as a child / teen by your parents - and scolded? [I know you said don't ask me why....]
What about mutual masturbation? That's still alot cleaner and safer than other more intense forms of gay sex.
Oh...and did you say You were having sex at 14/15? Wow, whatever about you being repressed about masturbation, I think I'm repressed about sex - I didn't discover that experience until about 2 years ago! And it has only ever been with the same person, and very occasional at that. And I'm not really too urged to do it with anybody else either. You say kids [boys] under 10 would never have sexual urges or dreams about other boys, true, probably not...but certainly ALOT do. When I was under 10, I certainly DID [of girls, anyway].
Now..you say you've never had a wet dream. That's ok, that can be normal too. Generally 'it is believed' that people who don't masturbate often tend to get them more - said to be because the body has to release the excess sperm, but I don't fully agree with that. But then, you may have one totally in your sleep and just don't remember it - like kids wetting the bed. And by the time you wake up it's eh...all dried up...
You only remember dreams if you are woken up during one - during REM sleep - this is when you would nocturnally ejaculate. I can't even remember when I last had one [wet dream] - but then I do masturbate.
I think the term sexually conservative is indeed a good way to describe yourself. Which is unusual, I would have thought for a young gay guy! But so be it, but please don't be upset if your nieces start playing with themselves or you discover that they are *really* into boyfriends at 10/11 - because that's who they are! I know two brothers - one just gone 12, the other nearly 15 and the 12 yr old has more girlfriends than you can shake a stick at, whereas the 14 yr old is rather more conservative and has yet to go out with anyone [as far as I know]. What I mean by this is that people are different....some discover themselves early..others later. So if you're nieces were to be the former, then let them be. There is nothing you can - or should - do about it.
P.s. no probs, PeteBurns.
And the very fact that you say masturbation is dirty (I'm still puzzled and to why you think this) and that you felt shame afterwards are, sadly, the very signs of repression. Repression that you could pass on to your nieces every time that you tell them that touching themselves, even in private is 'dirty'.
I remember i was in 6th class when i realkised i was gay as i developed a major crush on my teacher, i think i was only 11, so yeayh 11 was when i realised.
And i hate the way u Mary and inspector gadget think that i am repressing something by thinking that masturbation is dirty. it is dirty, and i dont feel this way about it because i am a repressed indivudual sexually or whatever or cuz i'm a good catholic irish boy.
If i meet some fella in a club and i REALLY like him, i would have no problem sleeping with him that night.
I just cant stand people that live for sex (watchin porn, sleepin with hookers, people doing weird sex shit) and when i say i feel dirty the few times that i have masturbated (i even hate the word) it's just an automatic feeling of shame, i just hate ity dont ask me why!!
And i know first years know everything about sex (they're 12/13), sure i knew everyuthing asbout sex when i was in first year, and yeah we were all having sex at age 14/15 i know that this is the norm, i'm saying kid under the age of 10 would never have sexual urges or "dreams" about other boys.
I know it sounds mad, i dunno if i'm weird or wat but i have never even had a wet dream. Is that mad?
And Mary i know its crazy to never want my nieces to grow up. I just love how cute they are at 2/3 and they just are the only reasonn i still like living sometimes. The thought of them discovering sexual thoghts etc. just makes me hate it. i know thats stupid but i want them to be at least 12/13 beofre they start thinking about other boys in that way.
And by telling my nieces not to be touching their private parts, i dont think i'm passing on my repression. i'm not repressed, just sexually conservative i suppose, anmd i would rather them be like me than to be really sexual when they grow up.
I hate they way everyone thinks that anything to do with sex is OK cuz it's NATURAL. Just cuz it's natural doesnt mean it's right.
p.s. sorry 4 offending u gadget head
Pete Burns, Mary & Fifi,
Pete, I think both Mary & fifi have validated my views on adolescent masturbation and indeed pre-teen fantasies. I did say I was speaking for myself... but dude, I'm sorry to break your view of that wonderful innocent world you choose to live in.... but things aren't quite so black & white.
Yes..it it wonderful how fun and playful and innocent young children are - and yes..we all do long for those old days when we were too..but you know, things have changed since you and I were pre-teen & teen. Try teaching a class of 1st years and you'll see just how 'innocent' they are on one hand [thru ignorance] but just how 'sexually mature' they are too!
And yes.... I said it is 'normal' for a teen to masturbate 1/2 a day...but of course..it is also 'normal' to only do it once a week too! Some people just choose not to do it so often. You are one of them. But *on average* a teen masturbates 1/2 a day. Maybe not a 12 year old..but certainly a 15 yr old. They just don't admit it.
And you said that you consider it 'dirty'. And yes.... in one way I agree with you - sure it's dirty, of course..what would you expect?- the 1st time I had an ejaculation I [age 13] got the shock of my life and had to take a long walk to relax! But well.... sex is dirty too! But guys get over the 'dirtyness' pretty quick... the psychological benefits of masturbation far out-weigh the negatives. If you did - or do still feel that it's dirty..then that's fine... but you are 'repressing' yourself as Mary said. And i'm sorry to hear that.
Also you mentioned that you didn't really have any sexual fantasies before you were 12. Well... lucky you...or maybe unlucky you? Perhaps the reason you didn't until then is because your innate tendency was gay...but it wasn't until you reached puberty that you [subconsciously] let it come to the fore - and you then let yourself dream about boys.
My best friends at the time [age 6/7] were girls who lived in my area, so my life evolved around them, but they were never girlfriends per se - I didn't need any..I had them as friends. But I wasn't afraid to let myself *dream* about them!
And I respect the love you have for your nieces... that is beautiful and right, but let them develop and discover themselves - in private - as they so choose..and don't impose your personal views on 'dirtyness' upon them.
Mary, thank you. You are quite right.... and yes... many gay people know at a young age they 'are different' but some....it takes sometime longer... so it's not 'funny' PeteBurns was 12..actually to accept his was gay at that age is pretty good [fair play to you, Pete] Many gay boys often don't accept it until their late teens....
Fifi, indeed...a first organism... well...it is kinda exciting...but as I said I had my first ejaculation at 13 but I sincerely now believe - looking back - that I had been having 'dry organisms' for Years before that. Perhaps not on organism per se...just a special heightened feeling of satisfaction. So it's certainly not throwing me off the mark! And I too did feel a little dirty afterwards...but well the feeling wins out. Just use appropriate hygiene! :-)
P.S. Pete, it may not sound like it, but I do take offence to your 'my oh so clever friend' comment... because I DO know what I'm talking about.
Funny you say you didn't realise until you were 12 that you were gay.
I have several gay friends and all say that they knew as young as 5 or 6 that they were different and not like other boys in that respect.
As for feeling dirty after masturbation. That is purely and simply a sign of repression. I have never felt that way.
And yes, it is normal for teens / adolescents both male and female to masturbate every day or most days.
It's great that you are so fond of your nieces but it would totally unnatural for them to stay young forever, don't you agree. And as for 'correcting' them when you see their behaviour, I sincerely hope its becuase it's public and not becuse you're telling them it's dirty becuase if it's the latter than you are simply passing your own repression onto them
Yes i do live on this planet and yes i do remember my childhood clearly and i am only 26..
And i disagree with u about children thinking "naughty taughts about girls/boys" etc. as i never thought about boys in a fancy-type way til i was 12 and startin puberty.
Before that i didnt know i was gay and i never masturbated or had sexual thoughts in any way, and even today i dont masturbate. i ADMIT I HAVE done in the past but only occasionally and i hate the way i do feel aferwards,thats why i dont do it anymore (i know this sounds so old fashoined an all but i cant help it but masturabting always made me feel so dirty afterwards).
And u saying that it is normal for an adolescent to masturabte at least 1-2 times a day. That is crazy, even when i was a teen i would never masturbate daily, quite infrequent actually.
I think u have a warped view of young kids if u assume that they want to have a girlfriend because of some sexual angle or whatever, this is so not the case.
I am gay and i even had girlfriends when i was 6/7/8 only cuz we thought we were cool having a girlfriend, and yeah we would hold hands or peck each other on the cheek but it was totally innocent. Havijng a girlfriend when ur a young kid is all to do with being cool/ popular and showing off, nothing to do with anything sexual my oh so clever friend...
i mind my nieces all the time and i love how innocent they are and i never want them to grow up. I love them at age 2/3 and i would love them to stay that age forever. And it makes me feel so brilliant being with them and playing games/ laughing with them on their level. It helps me rememnber how innocent i can be and that makes me feel so good, so that is why i hate, and correct them if i see them rubbing down there etc.
In either of these cases behavioural therapy may help. Tho in the former, medication is sometimes indicated also.
Yes... I did think of your post when I saw it. And I do wish to clarify what I would consider as 'normal'.
For starters, please bear in mind that my views are from a male perspective.
Ok...for me normal is when the child spends some small part of the day 'in discovery mode'. A perfectly normal time for this is around bedtime, or early morning before they get up. Some children, I know do decide to try at mealtimes...but parents are ususally quick to teach the child that at mealtimes, hands stay on the table! (boys).
I'm going to refer to what is generally regarded as normal for early adolescent / teen mastburatory 'practices'. If your child is a mature girl... you could easily include her in this category. Clinically 'normal' behaviour would be perhaps masturbating 1-2 a day perhaps a little bit more. As long as it is done in private, and does NOT interfere with normal daily activities (school - sports - homework - friends...etc) that is fine. However it becomes an issue when it's excessive and when it encroches on other normal activities. In other words, the child / teen is spending more time masturbating - or thinking about it - when they should be directing their attention to the task at hand - e.g. school & learning. It is also an issue when it is done 'in public' - in an obvious way. So for example a 13 yr old 1st Year with his hands in his pockets during class is probably 'normal' as long as nobody notices and he is still participating in the class.
The situation with your daughter is NOT that she is obsessive about playing with herself it is that she is doing it at inappropriate times & places - and hence causing concern to others. Furthermore, it has now become a habit - I don't think she [now] even realises when she's doing it! Obviously she 'knows' but it just doesn't 'click'. I hope you understand what I mean???
I can see the school's view point...they are lost as to what to do..and their only solution is to perhaps enlist some outside help.
I would agree, it is rather a bit excessive... but their concern is for her safety and education. They also don't want to hear complaints from other parents whom have hears 'stories from their own children about this girl who plays with her self in class'. Therefore they have to be seen to be doing something about the situation. Please do not take it as an insult that they have asked for a referral from the Health Board - they only wish to see that ''something' [from their perspective] is being done about it. Something they can have on paper! I'm sorry if that sounds cruel...but I'm assuming they are genuinely concerned.
So yes.... your daughter's behaviour would be considered as 'abnormal' but I'd prefer not to use that term... rather 'inappropriate'.
The actions of self-sexual stimulation are perfectly normal... what is not normal is not just the length of time she spends at it...but the time of day she chooses.
And yes..of course no child has ever been referred to the health board because of excessive thumb sucking.... but that is because it is not something that Society considers inappropriate in public. Allthough... excessive thumb sucking in a 10 yr old should never-the-less be at least noted - to check for stress, depression...all sorts of little things... [Not to mention the increased risk of infection...]
Distraction could havew taen the form or a toy, a game or even calling her name.
Now perhaps behavioral therapy may need to be called for, however, do encourage her towrds oher enjoyable activities - sport, reading even a computer game may help.
Sorry...I have to reply to this...it's just buging me.
PeterBurns, what planet are YOU on? How old are you? Do you not remember your childhood...I certainly remeber mine. And I certainly remember to at least as far back as age 6 or 7 - 1st Class anyway. And I rembember that I DID most certainly play with myself, in private, before going to sleep while thinking of naughty thoughts of the girls in my class and my friends up the road. But..at the same time... I was 'innocent' - because I couldn't have told you anything about sex.
OK... perhpas I was wrong to put ' 3 yr old' and 'masturbate' in the same sentence, but if I was to speak about myself..I would probably use it with age 6/7 and most certaily with age 8+.
Dang... why do people see it as BAD if children play with themselves???
By the way...I'm not 'sick minded' I'm logical, factual and honest. I know biology, physiology & a bit of psychology. I'm sorry if Society is perverted and assumes that anyone who speaks of saying that 'it's ok for children to masturbate' is making it sound like exploitation of children is OK. Jesus NO. I'm only stating FACTs & I'm talking about myself. And should anybody get any ideas...NO.. I was never abused in any way, infact my childhood was very protected in all things 'dirty'. BUT I discovered my body myself, as any child does. I discovered it gave me a special feeling to have my hand down my pants [in bed] - it helped me to goto sleep. [That's also a normal thing by the way....if you hadn't noticed].
Apologies if I sound bitter, because I am. I'm saddened on how Society twists and perverts everything. Then closes it's eyes to the obvious and normal. Or where the normal is twisted to be considered 'dirty' because people assume [through ignorance perhaps] that something is abnormal..even when it's perfectly normal - although in this case misunderstood due to an unfortunate choice of words. Words that were technically correct...but in a modern context inappropriate.
Now I undestand why medical professionals use extreamly technical words - to avoid misinterpretation by Society.
In response to my last post (20th) & Niaomi's subsquent message, I will agree that using the term 'masturbate' was perhaps too strong a word to describe the actions of a 3 yr old.
Furthermore what I mean by sexual beings is that humans will respond to sexual stmuli at any age. OK - a child does not realise that is what it is - for them - as was said - it is simply a nice feeling - just like scratching an itch is.
So yes...from their perspective they are just exploring their bodies - and yes..it feels good.
The ARE pure and innocent - in mind. There is no doubt about that.
Unfortunately...it is us adults [and I fell into this trap] who therefore assume they are being sexual. From my own childhood experience [I'm now 26] - I remember masturbating at 6/7 years of age - and YES I will use that term - because I would do it thinking of the girls in my class. Now...I didn't know nothing about 'sex' per se - but i knew it [playing] felt good and I knew the difference between a boy and a girl.
It has also been metioned that puberty is all about sexual realisation...yes..perhaps... but why then why do [pre-pubertal] 10 yr old's wanna have girlfriends? Perhaps modern media & society is partly to blame for the early sexualisation of children, I dunno. But what i'm trying to say..is that puberty is no-longer the Beginning of Sexualisation of children.
With regard to humans = sexual beings [at any age] I'm referring to the pure biology here. It is purely a biological response seen in a male infant getting an 'erection' during a nappy-change, it is not a response to what we would call 'sexaul stimulation'.
I will add here that physiologically an erection is a parasympathetic response, meaning that it occurs when the body is relaxed, as opposed to a sympathetic reaction [running away from the oncoming trian!]. Hence it can easily occur when in a relaxed state. Also, during REM sleep males get erections - a prefectly normal physiological state.
To tie this in with everything - I wish to highlight that for the child, they 'explore themselves' as it is relaxing. It is not to be confused with the adult state of sexual excitation.
To give another example [as far as I know!] a 6 yr old would not get an erection simply thinking of the opposite sex - in contrast to say a 13 yr old - but they would with physical stimulation. [I'm speaking from personal childhood experience here - see above] Hence they are not sexualised - emotionally - only physically. I hope you understand me here.
So yes... I apologise if it caused shivers down your back to refer to a 3 yr old as 'masturbating' that was a bit over doing it.
And I certainly did not intend my post to be in any way regarded as promoting the 'sexualisation' of children. Ah...shiver to think of that.
Of course children re pue but lets not confuse innocense with not eing sexually aware and this does not take in the scope of innocense at all.
Pete Burns, telling a child ur not meant to touch down there - does nothing other than encourage repression and the idea that some parts of your body are somehow dirty.
However, telling a child that somethings, you are only meant to do in private is quite different, and indeed the correct response.
I ma on this planet and my mind is as healthy as your own.
I know preciselt what the function of puberty is. I also know that all human beings are sexual, we are all either male or female.
However, it is at puberty that we become sexualized.
There is that reference again, that you are somehome seeing what your nieces are doing as dirty.
No one is talking about taking innocense aay from children. As I mentioned innocense is to do with a lot more then sex.
Mary u are on another planet, and u have a sick mind if u think that children can even contemplate anything even remotely sexual.
That's what puberty is about, if u didnt know. Before puberty we cannot be sexual or athing like that, we only start getting sexual urges after we go thru puberty.
I personally hate when i see my nieces doing this as i think it looks dirty, but only in the same way i would think of her farting as dirty, u know what i mean.
It makes me sick that person that said its ok for kids to masturbate and that they get pleasure from rubbing themselves. i wouldnt be surprised if u were sick in the head. Kids are so innocent and nobody should be allowed take that innocence away from them!!
If were are going to discuss, lets at least be accurate.
You said, 'the sex of a person, i.e. their gender'.
My point is that sex and gender are not the same thing. Sex refers to biology.
The chemicals that our brain produces and the organs that were have.
Gender is a socio-political construct and varies greatly depending on the society which you are in.