Do affairs wreck marriages?

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87 Posts

bluebird  ·  13 Sep 2012

Can I remind certain folk, the question and topic for dicussion is "Do Affairs Wreck Marriages?"

 

230 Posts

Hidden sight.   ·  12 Sep 2012

Voice in the Desert, I'll pretend I didn't even see your last post. If I was a creature I was made in God's image. I'm sure Jesus would be very disappointed if we remembered him only for his dying on the cross rather than the life he had. If your mother was nailed to a cross like that, how would you feel? Love? I doubt it.


I believe in all that is seen and unseen.

 

125 Posts

Voiceinthedesert  ·  10 Sep 2012

Reply to Hidden sight. the "creatures" are all human beings who at one time or another  rejected God since Adam and Eve, through all the atheists and moral relativists, to all those who, like you,  do not see Love in Christ hung on the Cross!

 

230 Posts

Hidden sight.   ·  09 Sep 2012

Anon, I really enjoyed your post. You have pointed out how we all have made a certain amount of progress on marriage, the acceptance of people with different skin color, the acceptance of divorce and a new life full of hope for these people, and of course most importantly of all how we have come to accept homosexuality so wonderfully at long last. Pope Benedict should go out amongst the gay community and learn to finally understand parts of human nature that were always there from time began and finally learn to embrace them. In my eyes his stance against homosexuality is keeping many people hostile towards these beautiful people. I don't like titles either. They separate people making some appear better than others and others lesser. Everyone should be referred to by their first names.

                                But I also want to point out another side of sexual repression. Where I feel most trapped in a marriage is that I have to make the committment to have sexual relations with this one person for the rest of my life. What does one do if you can't feel sexual gratification from this one person? Everything else in the marriage could be working perfectly but as much as you try to make this side better as well - you just can't seem to make any progress. One could start off by feeling very attracted to their spouse but as time moves on it could turn out to be the opposite. This is where my roving eye comes in and it doesn't help when I am in a business mainly dealing with men. I'll be the first to put up my hand and admit that some of these men do turn me on and I would love to go to bed with some of them. In one way I think I did really well in choosing to have an affair with just one of them and I have repressed loads of the feelings that I have for others.


I believe in all that is seen and unseen.

 

230 Posts

Hidden sight.   ·  08 Sep 2012

Dear Voice in the Desert, It's not that I am afraid of the cross but I certainly am fed up with it. I believe it no longer serves a purpose in the society we live in today. You cannot see Christ's ressurection in this cross - all you can see is his suffering. We are certainly aware of his ressurection through the teachings of the church but the image of the cross has the purpose of depicting exactly what he went through for our so-called sins. Nothing else Voice in the Desert. To have an image of this permanently on display is not good for many people I believe. It is not good for small children, for the mentally ill, for those with agressive tendencies and for those in severe pain. It offers no hope what-so-ever - only the thoughts that I must suffer in this world to become like Christ. This was not Christ's message in my eyes or what I picked up from some of the teachings. Christ's message was full of hope, he was an incredibly wise and compassionate man who forgave so easily. He had so much good news to tell us - yet all we have mainly focused on was Him dying on the cross.

                                        I think it is very important for the Catholic Church to wake up from this death-wish type of thinking. The cross needs to be taken down and only brought up on the perceived day that he died - this is, Good Friday. All those images of him walking and falling with the cross need to be taken down or at least lessened and far more pictures of Him performing miracles need to be put up. After all, in our prayers to him, that is always what we ask for.... Some form of miracle. There is no more joy for me in the church anymore and it doesn't serve my needs either. I have a different vision now and it is a fabulous one that I created myself. I find it much better to go out and search and each and every day I see God in everyone. I believe if I continued attending church and feeling guilty and afraid then I would be stuck in a certain stifling mind-set. Having said that - going in this direction maybe a necessary step for everyone at some point of their lives and eventually many come back to their churches. If I was to come back though, I would like to see many of the changes I've said above.

                                    You mention about feeling joy when you see Christ's sufferings after he was turned away by those creatures. Who are these creatures you speak about? Maybe you were one of these creatures at the time? If you were - why do you feel joy now? We are led to believe that we will all rise when we die but Christ also spoke about how He will come again. He could have been speaking for us all here Voice in the Desert. Maybe you should think about that the next time you look at the cross?


I believe in all that is seen and unseen.

 

230 Posts

Hidden sight.   ·  06 Sep 2012

Voice in the desert, I couldn't make out your last post. I'm not sure what you mean but then I scrolled down and discovered a post written by you that I had missed. Haven't time to write right now but I will read your post and reply to you, if that is okey?


I believe in all that is seen and unseen.

 

12,086 Posts

Anonymous  ·  06 Sep 2012

It's a while since I've been looking at at this discussion. Some very interesting comments. Bluebird, C oF E, as far as I understand, is the English equivalent of what would be referred to as C of I over here. Many Anglicans (what some C of E/I would refer to as "high church") however would regard themselves very much as catholic (just not Roman Catholic) rather than what we would loosely refer to as "protestant". Of coursde that is all mere semantics really as it's surely all one Christian church.

In 1995, Ireland changed it's law to recognise divorce as the legal means of ending a marriage and allowing both parties to re-marry if they wished. With regard to the lady whom your mother knew, if she obtained a church annulment (which certainly would have had no legal status here) without a legal divorce, then her first marriage was legally valid and binding and she was not free to marry. Hence she could not sign the register - as she was still married to her "first" husband, which means that the ceremony, nice and all as it may have been was not in any real, legal or valid sense, a marriage at all. Becuase, as you say, had it been registered as such (and it it is ONLY by registration that it becomes an actual marriage) , she could have been charged with the crime of bigamy.

It's true for you tho', there is little or no black and white in the vast majority of areas of life.

I agree with you, Ak, but it seems that some poeple will bring religion into all sorts of discussions - even in some instances whrree it is not even remotely relevant by any normal stretch of the imagination. Afterall, the influence of one particular religious orginisation was such, in this country, that poeple could not legally end a marriage contract until relatively recently.

Personally, I agree with your sentiments Buzz but looking at this discssion has taught me that it's not the same for everyone. 

Hiddensight, I think your advice regarding keeping channels of communication open is excellent for ALL couples  - not just where an affiar has taken place. That's a very good point too about the cost of a wedding. It seems that it can cost a phenomenal amount now. But it is to be remembered that the actual cost of registering your marriage is E150. Anything else is either the couple's own wish or what seems to be more and more the case, social, family or peer pressure, which needs to be resisted.

I don't think tho, Bluebird, that what we are discussing is becoming irrelevant at all. The question of affairs wrecking relationships is just as relevant for any couple, regardless of whether they are married or not. And bear in mind too that same sex couples cannot yet legally marry in this jurisdiction but that does not make the topic any less real for them either. I don't think the fact that couples co-habut is sad, if anything it is so positive that people have that freedom that they didn't have a couple of generations ago. If each generation is able to dislocate itself from what was deemed "socially acceptable" because it is no longer relevent or even ethical then is that a good thing and a sign that our society is still evolving. Remember that it was once "sociually acceptable" in certain circles dscrimate against people of a different skin coloiur and to assault ones spouse. Now society has moved away from that to the extent that they are now a crimninal offences. it was also "socially acceptble" to hide and suppress ones sexually if if a person was homosexual and thankfully we have also grown up enough to cast off that repression, to the betterment of all our citizens. In reality, codes of practice change just as the mores of any given society are in flux over time and history shows us that they always have. 

 

125 Posts

Voiceinthedesert  ·  05 Sep 2012

Only in the Last Times people will forsake the Divine precepts to the extent that you mention. Let's hope that this never happens! I sincerely believe that you are wrong, and I shall never give up on Humanity till there is God's breath in my mouth! In essence, most humans that I know love God and want to live!

 

230 Posts

Hidden sight.   ·  05 Sep 2012

Bluebird, I don't think we have really reached that stage yet. I think it is about half and half. Although most of those who go onto marry have lived with each other for a number of years first. Marriage is still alive and well but I think what prevents a lot of people marrying at the moment is the sheer cost of a wedding. It's phenomenal the amount of money you need and I think this is a disgrace. People need to find much cheaper ways of marrying and I would love to see it become very acceptable. In our pub here we have had one or two small weddings consisting of about 60 people and they had a buffet which cost them only a fraction of the price and they all had an absolutely brilliant time. We need to get out of the idea of a big fancy wedding.

                                 For those who decide to just live together rather than marry I think an affair withing that set-up is the exact same as if they were married. My sister's partner had an affair and she was gutted! There was much fighting involved between her and the other woman and eventually she won him back. She immediately became pregnant and I got the feeling that this was done deliberately to keep him more. Now they appear to get on very well and I certainly can't afford to judge him because I did the same thing myself. People claim that by not getting married each of them can easily walk away from each other but from what I have seen - it is not as clear-cut as that and the same rules seem to apply as though you were married. Some people don't feel the need to declare their love for each other in front of other people or feel that the ceremony will somehow protect them from future harm and they would certainly be right here. However, I believe that everything else outside of the ceremony comes into play in the exact same way.


I believe in all that is seen and unseen.

 

87 Posts

bluebird  ·  04 Sep 2012

Do you know I think what we are all discussing is really becoming totally irrelevant as more and more couples put off "legal" marriage and opt to just cohabit - sad from my point of view. Each generation appears to be able to dislocate itself from what is socially acceptable so it may, in years to come, become totally acceptable for each individual not to conform to any acceptable code of practice because anything will go, or dare I ask have we reached that stage already.  

 

87 Posts

bluebird  ·  04 Sep 2012

That was an interesting post Hidden Sight again confirming to me that a marriage surviving an affair depends on two people.   No matter how regrettful the guilty individual is, the marriage survival ultimately depends on the injured party.  However, I personally would feel that for the remainder of the relationship there would always be just that slight diminution of trust, it would be an entirely human reaction.  Perhaps as time passes and people age and memories fade it too might go I just don't know not having experienced same.I do know that as one grows older one does change particularly in what was once so important in life can become less important and perhaps ones partner not being faithful is one of those things.

 

230 Posts

Hidden sight.   ·  04 Sep 2012

Hi Buzz, Well it certainly is damaging and traumatic not only for the person betrayed but for the person who had the affair as well. But out of all traumatic situations comes healing as well and certainly in my case - it took a long time and I'm not fully sure whether we are there fully yet but it is so much better than it was.

                      During the years after the disclosure of an affair you will find that there will be plenty of days when you have to tread so lightly and so carefully in dealing with your spouse. Then there will be other days when you can discuss problems that may be in the marriage, why the affair happened, what the feelings are where everyone involved in the affair is concerned and plans on going forward. Then of course much has to be discussed if you have children as well. Months can go by when the affair is never discussed and then you could find it is a very important topic for a full week in a row. There is much jealousy and guilt involved and these are very hard subjects. One of both parties might have to go to councelling. There might be an avoidance of sexual relations for a while usually from the betrayed partner who now rejects you in return.

                But somehow you get there and the reason the marriage is stronger is because you have learned so much about yourself and your spouse along the way albeit through all these negative parts of the marriage. I was also aware during these times was that the marriage could fall apart at any stage but I think the real secret to it becoming a success afterwards was keeping the channels of communication open no matter what. No-one can make any progress at all if they're not even on speaking terms. That would be my advice to anyone who either admits to having an affair or who is cheated on. Stay with it and confront your issues and be as honest as you can in conveying your feelings and messages to your partner and sometimes they might not like what is being said but it should be said anyway.


I believe in all that is seen and unseen.

 

3,037 Posts

buzz  ·  03 Sep 2012

Depends on the people involved. For me, the marriage would be over. I dont really buy the theory that it can "make you stronger" - how can something so damaging and traumatic make anything stronger?

 

87 Posts

bluebird  ·  24 Aug 2012

Quite Correct Aka, its the usual in Ireland everything reverts to Religion in the end.   Do Affairs Wrect Marriages?  I think at the end of the day it depends on the couple involved and how they look at life.  What will wreck one marriage could actually make another stronger.  Generally speaking, nothing is Black or White.

 

230 Posts

Hidden sight.   ·  23 Aug 2012

Okey, ak, we'll try and get back to the topic of affairs. However religion does play a part in one part of affairs anyway and that is there section on the commandments. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbours wife (it doesn't say anything about not coveting thy neighbours husband though!!) Still this is where we all feel guilty about having an affair and feel we are wrong. If I was asked the question Do affairs wreck marriages 10 years ago I would have said yes but now having come through those years and out the other side I am now saying no. It is a hugely complicating area and sometimes the person having the affair isn't sure why they do it or what the reasons behind it is.


I believe in all that is seen and unseen.

 

14 Posts

ak  ·  23 Aug 2012

Hi, Can ye please stop the debate on religion . This is a discussion on DO AFFAIRS WRECK MARRIAGES !!!!!

 

87 Posts

bluebird  ·  23 Aug 2012

Yes Hidden Sight I have a close friend who is Protestant and it was something I asked her about many years ago, the Cross and why they always, or  almost  always have no figure on their crosses.  It was then it became clear to me that they celebrate the Resurrection of Christ. his overcoming death, rather than the crucification.  That is not to say they do not celebrate Good Friday but their emphasis is on the Resurrection.   They did have a problem many years ago putting crosses on display in churches but this disagreement appears to have been resolved with time. Many of the C of E what I think they call in the UK  Anglo Catholic would display crucifixs  I would also just mention to you, since you say you have never been in a protestant church, that there is not ONE protestant church but many.  We as catholics were more or less educated to think they were all the same, they are not but they have little problem going from one denomination to another as I found with  my friend and her family.  What I now consider a sign of a true christian. Was too ignorant to understand or too young if you prefer.  They recognise all churches as being of the one christian family with just minor differences.   Again, there is the question of the Trinity which not all protestant denominations might accept.  As regards marriage and the legal situation in Ireland well I think that has now changed.  My own mother knew a couple who were married in the catholic church and it was the brides second marriage  ceremony her first having been annuled by the church. All that was different on the second occasion was that she did not sign the register as otherwise she could have been charged with bigamy, needless to say the Law turned a blind eye to all of this going on. 

 

12,086 Posts

Anonymous  ·  23 Aug 2012

Leaves endowned with a supernatural soul, Voice? You'll have to explain that one.However, your post does not explain anything. You previously mentioned that you know you are on a 'right path' by the "holiness of your life". But now you say you cannot meanure holines and in the same sentaence say that this spirit is holiest - but if you cannot meausre holiness, how do you know who/what is holiest and if in fact oneself if "holy"? Bluebird, I think cutting out the legal beavers who are making a fortune out of these problems is a very good idea and religioin is of course a private matter. I completely agree, the concept of a church annulment is absolutely ridiculous - it is merely a refusal or perhaps incapability of that institution to recognise the fact that mariages which they have solemnized / sanctified DO breakdown - so the annulment simply says that the marriage "never existed"  - when it very obviously did, which is an insult to the intelligence of all involved. It is to be remembered too that a church annulment has absolutly NO standing in the eyes of the law  - NONE and marriage is first and foremost a legal contract and civil right. Therfore anyone who has had a church annulment and re-marries, is in fact, breaking the law and commiting the crime of bigamy, unless they have gotten a civil divorce - "dispensation" from any relgious authority being utterly irrelevant in this case. Interesting you should say that, Hidden sight, a friend of mine who is a Christian, brought up the same point in discussion not so long ago. The crucifix is actually the instrument of Jesus' torture and death - which the catholic church glorifies - which says a lot about its psychological mindset. Surely, if it is to be a source of joy and happiness which it claims, then glorifiying the positive makes far more sense. But of course the church needs to move on and grow with our evolving society - it has always, throughout its history. been slow to do this.It is true, during the dating phase people can put on the 'good face' but the true picture is revealed when they are living woth somene - which is why I feel that living together first makes perfect sense. So many of us have had the experience of having a good friend, then entering a house or flat sharing arrangement with them  - only to realise that they were entirely differnet people from what we thought. The very same is true of life partners - except that a house lease id much easier to end than a marriage which has irretrievalby broken down because both partners have realised that the other was not the person they believed them to be.

 

230 Posts

Hidden sight.   ·  23 Aug 2012

Bluebird, I never noticed that about the Protestant church. That is a very interesting one. Maybe I'll take a trip in there sometime because would you believe I have never been in a Protestant church yet. I know we are slightly going off the path by speaking on this topic but if we are doing that I believe there must be a connection somehow and maybe it will show up later. I personally think that the Catholic Church needs to move on and evolve faster in losts of areas. There are parts of the church that no longer fit who we are today and the cross was one thing that I thought about this week and I feel that the church needs to show and highlight new pictures and move beyond the suffering ones. I think it is terrible too to show these pictures of Christ's sufferings to children as well and it brings back memories I had as a child myself of feeling this enormous guilt that I might have played a part in when I would see the cross. I'm sure many children feel the same way today as well and my own children have told me about how scared they felt over these pictures. A church needs to be a truly joyful place to go into and it should put major emphasis on showing up the great work that Christ did when he was here on earth. Personally I haven't gone near churches for a long time now and I haven't encouraged my children to do so either. Children haven't a clue what's being said either because the language is too hard for them and they have to be told all the time to stay quiet so it's not child friendly either. I do feel though that they're not bad when it comes to marriage cermonies. Couples tend to pick happier readings and the priests seem to be in better form as well. No-one stands up though and protests at the marriage anymore though and I think if someone feels that the marriage could be a disaster then they should say so.


I believe in all that is seen and unseen.

 

125 Posts

Voiceinthedesert  ·  22 Aug 2012

Hidden Sight. I will try not to lose marriage from sight while explaining the Cross. Don't be afraid of Christ nailed to the Cross! In the perspective of the Cross all marriages have best chance to succeed! I recall that Wolfgang Goethe "hated the Cross" also. This is never a Catholic view. Unlike the Protestants, when I see Crucified Christ, I see His resurrection and my resurrection!  Which is really the only reason why I am happy on earth! Looking at the Crucified Christ,  I see God suffering, turned away by His creatures! This quickens my love for the Heavenly Father and for the Son. With the Spirit's help, I see the Spirit extracting  from the depth of Christ's suffering a new measure of blessedness for me and the world! In the Crucified Christ, I see God having overcome the forces of evil, opening before humanity the gates of the Kingdom of Heaven, the kingdom of freedom and love! How not to rejoice about that? The Catholic Church contemplates the Crucified Christ, and in His countenance she discovers Christ living and suffering in the poor! From contemplating the Cross, the Church draws compassion for people involved in unhappy marriages. For the Cross, in spite of what it may appear, is a confirmation that love exists, and that God exists! How can this not make you happy and hopeful? The Cross is the cornerstone, which contains in itself all human crosses, including those of unhappy couples in marriages! Just think, without the Crucified Christ, these crosses would have no value nor sense at all! With the Crucified Christ, however, their value is immense! The "suicide bombers" are not "gods who die for you," so their suffering isn't redemptive!  Only Christ Crucified, being God, has accomplished the work of justification for all, simultaneously taking all human suffering (including that of unhappy couples) upon Himself, and making it part of His redemptive Cross.  Because this Cross alone unites Divinity with Humanity,  on it rests all Christian spirituality, and it alone represents the way of Salvation! All this should be a source of immense joy for all Christians, and I am sorry it is not for the Protestants! As far as "anulments" are concerned, in the Catholic Church it is not difficult to get a papal dispensation and marry again. Catholics know  that God wants us to be happy, so I fully agree with you on that!                          

 

87 Posts

bluebird  ·  22 Aug 2012

Hidden Sight, have you noticed the Protestant Churches tend to show the Crossempty - without the figure of Christ.  This is because he overcame death and the cross is empty.  Think we are heading away from the original question of " Do affairs wreck marriages?".   My simple answer to that is that in most cases they DO. It depends entirely on the individual who is the wounded party and whether they have the ability to move on, in otherwords have a bad memory.

 

230 Posts

Hidden sight.   ·  22 Aug 2012

Do you know Voice in the Desert, I don't really like looking at the cross anymore. I think Christ's message needs to be shown differently. It is not joyful going into a church anymore when you keep seeing Christ on the cross suffering. I often wonder does this image keep people thinking of suffering all the time or even influence other people to commit it. Christ was considered a martyr and look at all those suicide bombers who are told that they too are martyrs. We should be looking at all the miracles he performed for a change and take the cross down for a while anyway.

                                  I do also agree with Bluebird that an annulment is ridiculous. It means the person cannot move on and is not free to marry someone else. I would certainly feel that anyone that ends up in an abusive relationship should with immediate effect be taken out of that marriage and freed. Many people can be very false during the dating side of a relationship and afterwards show their true colors. I am 100% certain that God wants us all to be truly happy - then we become truly creative but we can't do anything if we are miserable.


I believe in all that is seen and unseen.

 

87 Posts

bluebird  ·  21 Aug 2012

Listen folks I picked the number 5 - as in five years for the contract, it can be 2 yrs.  Perhaps when the couple are marrying they should choose the time limit up to which the contract will run.The older I get the more I realise marriage in most instances will not be for life - people are not prepared to be unhappy all of their lives.    If either party finds themselves in an abusive situation - well they are still free to walk, BUT  the original contract time chosen at the time of the marriage must still stand.  Just trying to come up with a sensible solution to what is a growing problem.  Trying to cut out the legal beavers who are making a packet out of unfortunate situations.  If you want to bring religion into it, and I don't really thats a private matter - well it would remove the carry-on of the anulment situation in the catholic church which is ridiculous.  No lets not go down that road, lets leave that institution - the catholic church to its own devices shall we?.   Have the people of Ireland realised yet that it was an institution  they had the belief in not the religion. Catholism is not a religion it is a denomination of a religion which happens to be christanity. Heard on a radio programme the other day where no Priest turned up to say evening mass, none could be got so a Nun in the congregation offered her services.  Apparently a considerable portion of the gathering walked out, mainly middle aged women.   What hope is there for little old Ireland?.

 

125 Posts

Voiceinthedesert  ·  21 Aug 2012

Anonymous, we all get guidance from the Holy Spirit of God, who explains to us the Scriptures and events, and the events in the light of the Scriptures. Many things we shall never know. We are no more than decaying leaves tossed by the wind, gone soon we arrive. The leaves, fortunately, are endowed with a supernatural soul. This is why each of us has all hope vested in the Most Holy Trinity. The Father awaits us anxiously, for we are His dwelling, which He had lost and then recovered by his Son's Cross. We are on our way to Him. The Spirit is the One who guides us on the way. True love is His Cross and our crosses. This is where the Spirit is active. The crosses are the source of holiness and the measure of holiness. Don't even try to discern "who is holier". It is not possible in this life, and it is unhelpful! Trust the Holy Spirit's guidance, which is the holliest and the most certain! The Spirit alone had sprang from the very heart of suffering  that is Holiness. His light is all that we need.

 

12,086 Posts

Anonymous  ·  21 Aug 2012


That's an interesting way of looking at it, Devils advocate (especially given the time of year) - that those who fail their exams will end up learning more in the long run. Your concept of a God is most interesting also - that of a God which is inside us an all around us is actually the basis for the entire concept of religious education in catholic managed primary schools here in Ireland in the 70's and 80's.


Bluebird, it is true, this generation does not have to enter the contract of marriage for life. In 1995, this country finally grew up as a nation sufficiently to recognise the irrefutable faxt that marriages (which are first and foremost a legal contract) do irretrievably breakdown and that those who have entered such a contract have the civil right to end that contract in such circumstances. Tho I do not agree with the five your rule. If a spouse is violent, the the other partner should and must have the right to legally end that contract. No one should be forced to stay in a siatuation where they risk their safety. Some would argue the same for infidelity or addiction. I agree tho that everyone should be required to have a state marriage for it to be recognixed., This is exactly how it is in other secular European countries. One is required to have a civil contract of marriage in order for it to be legally valid. Thereafter they have an additional celebration in church, mosque, synagogue, temple or tree-house, as befits their desires and beliefs. I agree absolutely tho, each country must seek to govern by the rule of law not by that of theocracy - we have evidence in our own history and all over the world of the horrific damage that does to people and to society. I support that each individual has the right to beleive whichever ideology they wish but I cannot and will never support any attempt by anyone to impose that on any other person.

VVoice, you say that you get guidance the depth of your love and the holiness of your life - but how can you meansure 'holiness'? How can you tell if one person is more 'holy' than another?

As to your other point, as bluebird already mentioned, the suggestion re a 5 year contract was with the intention of taking the religious side out of things, so the "the design of God for all generations" is not relevent in that context. However your understanding of the purpose of catholic marriage is incorrect. As any couple who taken a catholic pre-marriage course (a requirement in Ireland if you want to have a catholic church ceremony) will attest to, the catholic purpose of marriage is first the growth of mutual love and unity and yes this takes into account sexual fulfillment (the becoming of "one body") and the generation of children. Afterall, if the deepest purpose were solely the generation of children, then the catholic church would not marry those who were past their fertile years, those who werre knowingly infertile or those who have had vasectomies or tubals and they very definitely do. I agree that a child is very precious (and certainly not a "commodity") and their future can not be put at risk. Therefore I believe that in divorce arrangments, the welfare of the child must be prioritized and the state must step in where neccessary. What happened to you was a horrific thing for any parent to do. Granted at 18 you would have been an adult but for any parent to simply set their offsping adrift is appalling - regardless of the wishes of their spouse. However, the circunmstances from which it transpired - that of not wishing to share an inheritance - are exactly the reason which legal safegaurds need to be in place. Had the legal governance of such scenarioes which now exists, been in place at the time, then it would not have been possible for your fathers new wife not to share an inheritance or dispossess you. This is the very reason why legal safeguards need to be in place for such situations.

 

230 Posts

devil\'s advocate  ·  08 Aug 2012

Don't worry Bluebird - I too wondered if I had left or got thrown out that time - would I have been better off. And I guess we can't protect our children from everything - after all they must learn and grow too and I suppose we as parents set the foundations for those lessons. What I found was that there were extraordinary lessons learned for myself throughout all this. Committment and dedication were two main ones and I now know that I am capable of using these skills whenever the need arises in the future. You too have learned these ones and they are fantastic assets to have. I am a great believer in thinking that we live forever so if I never use them again in this lifetime you can be certain that I will use them sometime. (Maybe 2750!) I am glad I was so committed to my kids and dedicated myself to putting as many of them through college as possible or in the case of some of my sons - apprenticships.

                    Of course you learn all the fearful lessons throughout as well like guilt and remourse and generally just feeling you are a bad person ect. and looking back I felt that I kept those too long but anyway that is the way it happened. 

                                I do think though that marriage certainly does feel like a noose around one's neck and the fact that it prevents a person from loving other people particularly in a sexual way is very stifling at times. That's my problem - I do like to experience other people in that way and I'm afraid I tend to act on those feelings.


I believe in all that is seen and unseen.

 

87 Posts

bluebird  ·  04 Aug 2012

I understand what you are saying Devil's Advocate with regard to a time limit on the marriage, but I see it this way that with the introduction of divorce most people now accept, that a marriage can be ended  legally if it does not work out.  Even those who would not agree with divorce, I know of two individuals who have availed of same needless to say at the same time not admitting that they might have contributed to the breakdown of the marriage. No introducing a time element into a legal marriage situation means everyone knows exactly where they stand.  It is up to each couple to work to make the marriage work knowing that their partner can opt out of the marriage when it comes up for renewal.  I just feel it would make a lot of individuals think twice before they embark on  an affair knowing the contract would be coming up for renewal in the near future.  It would also give the other partner in the marriage time to reflect to see if they could overcome the hurt and damage caused to the relationship. With regard to children, well it is always difficult.  Bringing children up in an unhappy home, or separating or not just being there for them when needed, eitherway the children will suffer.  They always do, that is life.  I stayed in an unhappy marriage for the sake of my son, my husband dying a couple of years ago.   Was it worth it?  I keep asking myself that question - perhaps my son would be the one to answer that really not me.  There are times when I am sorry I did stay.  Someday I will ask my son, not just yet it is too early after the death of his father.

 

87 Posts

bluebird  ·  04 Aug 2012

Yes Devil's advocate life long marriage is the ideal solution for both children and the couple involved BUT unfortunately life has a funny way of throwing up things along the way which can either be the cause of strengthening the marriage or inflicting damage on the relationship. It very much depends on the character and personality of the individuals involved. Some people can forgive and forget affairs, others........ well they do not find it as easy and the wound inflicted remains with them all their life. I am so pleased that both you and your husband can look forward to a happy time together now that your children are reared. Thank God every day for such a gift.

 

230 Posts

devil\'s advocate  ·  02 Aug 2012

Bluebird, I know where you are coming from. It is quite an interesting post but I too feel that putting a certain amount of years on a marriage is very risky. 

                              One of the ways I would see this is that the committment to stay together would be a lot weaker because you have the thought in your head that I only have five years and sure if it doesn't work out I can always leave. You could compare that to a lot of areas involving time such as schooling, learning how to drive or even losing weight. When the time is out I don't have to try anymore and I can go on to do different things. In your case you could most certainly be moving onto a new partner or new marraige and there is no doubt that children would be disrupted under these conditions. Sometimes I feel this danger is here as well when people decide to live together rather than marry. Having said that - it was something I didn't do and maybe I should have at least for a while. 

                          The other thing I find is that in rearing kids for example you might have a partner that might be useless in helping out with them when they are very young but could be amazing to you when they get older. I found that in my case. My husband was very poor and just didn't seem to know what to do but was brilliant as they got older. 

                                   Marriage may seem like a very long time but here am I after 30 years of marriage wondering where all the time went and sometimes it feels like I only just met my husband yesterday. And now that our kids are all grown up it feels like we are starting a brand new relationship again. 


I believe in all that is seen and unseen.

 

87 Posts

bluebird  ·  02 Aug 2012

Ah Yes, but God gave us free will to decide whether we follow his commandments or not. We must follow the law of God because we  wish to and not because we are made.   Therefore, each country must seek to govern by the rule of law, not necessarily the law of God.  See what happened here in Ireland when one section of the country decided they knew what was best for all others.   If different religions interpret the law of God differently that is their decision but they must not and cannot inflict their interpretation of God's law on others.  The state must be seen to rule for all its citizens of all religions and none.  Affairs do wreck marriages, age wrecks marriage, individuals grow apart because they become different people with different outlooks on life.   It would be wonderful if we all loved each other according to the will of God and the command of Jesus. Unfortunately being human some people find it hard to " love their enemies"  and even love their neighbours who in a lot of cases make their lives a hell.  The reality of the situation is that relationships break down, humans commit sins and that is fact.   Would that Greed would disappear from the face of the earth - unfortunately satan  or evil roams freely abroad, and will do so until Jesus returns to the earth and satan is controlled  as described in the Book of Relevations. 

 

125 Posts

Voiceinthedesert  ·  01 Aug 2012

Reply to Bluebird. While your "option" i well-reasoned and well-intentioned, it falls short of the design of God for "all generations". The reason is because the deepest purpose of marriage is in the procreation, well-being, and education of children in accordance of the moral precepts of God. Even if you "take out the religious side," you still cannot leave out the chidren's fate, or put it at risk! Marriage is much more than personal convenience or "sexual fulfillment" of the spouses! Your assumption that "the children would be covered" is presumptious. A child is such a precious commodity, that it cannot be left to the parents' whims, not even to the magnanimity of the state. There are many traumas possible in the arrangement you advocate. The "new" parents may have new child-hostile agendas. I will briefly illustrate this on my own experience. At 15, my father remarried. After three years, his new wife  decided, that she wouldnt't share inheritance with me and her new children. On her advice, my father put me on a transatlantic oceanliner to a South American country, paid one night hotel, slipped a note under the door, "that you are now on your own". The result was that I was left dispossessed without a penny and without speaking the language, facing untold hardships. While the authorities never located him again, now I know that the new family is prominent and happy. I do not wish this to happen any child on earth! Which is why I do not accept your advice. The best advice is always given by God! You find it in the Bible. 

 

87 Posts

bluebird  ·  01 Aug 2012

Look as regards Marriage and it being for life. Well I recently came to the following conclusion. This generation will not and should not have to enter into a contract for life. Taking the religious side out of things, I honestly believe that it is time that when a couple decide to legally marry, that such marriages are for a certain period of time lets say 5 yrs. Couples are obliged to remain married for 5 yrs. No divorce allowed or ending of the legal contract before that. At the end of the five years, each couple is then required to state whether they wish to remain in the marriage or opt out. They should be then free to choose if they enter into another 5 yr contract or a ten yr one and so on. I believe that this would solve a lot of problems. Firstly, many newly couples who find the early yrs of marriage difficult and who leave within 2 yrs of the marriage, but perhaps a year or two later are sorry they left, would still be married and could perhaps re start the marriage once it was within the 5 yr contract. With some, leaving the relationship would actually allow them to see that they made a mistake and should never have married that individual and so after the 5 yrs they would be free to persue another relationship legally, etc. Children would be legally covered, and the churches could decide whether they wish to accept the legal situation or not but everyone would be required to have a state legal marriage for it to be recognised.

 

230 Posts

devil\'s advocate  ·  31 Jul 2012

Dear Voice in the desert, I respect entirely the method you use to bring the spirit into your life however I have a few things to say on this. When I go to mass I love the Eucharist too and yes, it certainly feels as if you are recieving some great nourishment in the form of Our Lord.

                                    However if I was to depend on this throughout my life I would still feel that God was separate from me instead of being a part of me and that I had to go somewhere to get Him. And because I now no longer attend mass on a regular basis I believe that through trial and error that the best belief I can have is that God is always inside me and I can communicate with him all the time and in any place I go to. This for me is the only way to live because one constantly has their best friend with them all the time. Everyday I tune in and we have constant conversations and opinions on different matters and this to me is the greatest of all relationships. I get incredibly wise answers at times that you know for certainty couldn't come from your own intellect. I use many many questions (as you probably have noticed) before I make any major decisions. I come in and study every angle that could possibly happen and I go into great detail. This I believe is the reason we both stayed together through an affair and managed to raise our daughter as if she was our own. I learned huge lessons throughout it all and many of the lessons were negative ones but sometimes in life you have to go into this negativity in order to change it to a higher level. There are only a few people I think that can go through life truly happy, helpful and positive and go on to have exhilarating lives. These people of course are truly necessary and are probably chosen especially for the task of helping others who are on more difficult paths. I also believe that there are people especially chosen to carry very hard emotions so that others can be free from these to carry out their own special paths in life. I particularly believe this of people who suffer severe dibillitating depression throughout their lives. These people are angels in my eyes. Even those we look on as damaging their own lives should also be seen in a different context. An alcoholic could be allowing you to enjoy your drink without it ever disrupting your life. A begger on the street could be allowing you to keep your cosy warm house. Obviously I too would have only a certain amount of tolerance. Murder of any kind is where I would draw the line but governments sending out soldiers to kill other soldiers doesn't help this area at all anyway.


I believe in all that is seen and unseen.

 

125 Posts

Voiceinthedesert  ·  30 Jul 2012

Devil/s Advocate, you have asked "What makes you think yo are on the right path and if you think you are, who guides you and how does it communicate with you?" For a Christian, the answer is simple: You get the Spirit from the Eucharist and the Gospel, in the context of a holy life! That is how He comes. The depth of your love for the Holy Trinity, and the holiness of your life  reinforces your certainty that He is with you. In other words, it's all about being on the right path. Or simply put, being a good Christian.

 

230 Posts

devil\'s advocate  ·  28 Jul 2012

Hey, Voice, you're not supposed to be agreeing with me! We'll never learn that way! I enjoy being stupid - it stops me from thinking I am better than others. Whenever I buy something I always act as if I haven't got a clue - then I leave them explain and it makes them feel good and I come away with a smirk on my face! All those who fail their exams should be given a medal because they'll end up learning more in the long run. 

                                  By the way, you haven't explained your Holy Spirit to me yet. Why not? Can't you answer it? So, I'll ask you again. What makes you think you are on the right path and if you think you are, who guides you and how does it communicate with you? 

                         Actually, someone on this site told me that I should call myself Devil's Advocate or Wooden Spoon because I have driven them mad on the smoking site! I have still to use Wooden Spoon so I'm biding my time and when I think the time is right I will use it. When are you going to change yours? Ha, Ha!


I believe in all that is seen and unseen.

 

12,086 Posts

Anonymous  ·  27 Jul 2012

Voice, you're right, the discussion is about affairs in marriages and I already pointed that out, In which case, why were you so obviously keen to state your accomplishements as you did? I was merely answering your question.Oh the gospel / bible, most certainly can be questioned. I just did as do many many millions of othjers of many ideologies. So you are entirely in error if you think it cannot be questioned.The 'this word is law" without logical discussion or debate comes from the 'becuase I say so" school of thought which is an insult to the intelligence of any human being over the age of about three and says much about the thought process of those attempting to enforce it. "people of other religions" atheists, humaninsts, agnostics and indeed many Christions - all numbering in the millions question it. Tho again what stone carvers have to do with it, I do not know. 

 

12,086 Posts

Anonymous  ·  27 Jul 2012

Ah Devil's advocate, even judging by your posts alone, anyone can see that you very very far indeed from stupid. One does not need a degree in anyg discipline to be possessed of innate intelligence., Experience of life givs of an education sometimes far advanced of what a degrees, M.A.s and Ph.D's can teach us. In fact I have come accross many people who are very learned in their own narrow field of accomplishment but display none of your good sense in the broader aspects of living life which so many of us experience.I would hope indeed that we are evolving to become more compassionate, more considerate and more loving.True, people go astray in life simply because of their life experiences and traumas. Not everyone's journey is the same. True, no-one came to this life to intentionally hurt another human being. we are all moulded by our circumstances, our experiences and our culture - we are all ethnocentric. Our actions are influenced by how we have been raised and treated.Rather like dogs (and no I am not comparing the two - it is just an analogy). There are no "bad" dgs but bad behavours which comes about from bad treatment and practices. Of course everybody interprets the Bible differently that is why there are so many semininatiosn, sects and schisms - and this is just with Christianity alone without considered all the other religions in the world - all of whom are as convinced as each other that they are 100% right .By the way, I tink your name is quite appropriate, 'Devils; advocate' stems form a  legalistic manner of argument but whether it is done by yourself simply to be Devils advcate or from an entirely personal viewpoint, you have, in challenging my stance, taught me several things.

 

12,086 Posts

Anonymous  ·  27 Jul 2012

I agree Voice, respected forums are not for ad hominem arguments and it  is unbecoming of educated people, so I am glad you have decided that you are now above this and will desist in it. It is a pity however that you could not debate in a factual manner, the points I have raised, without resorting to personal ideolgies or agendas. How can you possibly say that it was a figment of my imagination when it is written, black and white, your comment to Zoe that her story seems too negative and horrible to be entirely true. . To say that that is a figment of your imagination, is an insult to the intelligcence of anyonme reading that post.  I cannot answer for what you think catholic priests are expected to do in Ireland but I do know that they do not ask about vasectomy or tubal ligation as it is these do not provide impediment to marriage. and obviously ar not a physicsal impediment to consumation, unlike, for example, impotence, which is completely different of course and is considered an impediment.

 

230 Posts

devil\'s advocate  ·  25 Jul 2012

Dear voice in the desert, let's see where your oasis is. Tell me about your Holy Spirit. How do you know you are guided by this spirit? Where is it in your eyes? Is it up in the sky, all around you, in the desert or inside in you? How does it communicate with you? What does it tell you about your path and your lessons? 

                                      You seem to think that lessons has something to do with acquiring knowledge? What about all the other lessons, like patience, compassion, forgiveness ect? Have you thought about these ones? What about mistakes? Do you not think there is major lessons to be learned in making mistakes? 

                       During my affair - I too felt that I was guided by the divine. My child from that affair is divine - of that I am certain. She is beautiful, intelligent and a great lover of animals. She is loved by all her half-brothers and sisters and my husband and fits in as if there was no difference what-so-ever. You speak of moral relativity but I don't have to take judgement from you or anyone else. As far as I am concerned the right thing happened and I don't allow myself to feel the guilt anymore that I used to. It is indeed very possible to love two people equally in this way and as I am always saying - you have to experience something in order to know it. You can read out of books and texts forever but you will forever remain ignorant unless you experience something because the major thing you are lacking are the feelings in particular surrounding your chosen area. The same goes where God is concerned. You can read the bible forever but if you cannot experience God in your life then you will never Know him properly. 


I believe in all that is seen and unseen.

 

125 Posts

Voiceinthedesert  ·  24 Jul 2012

Devil/s advocate, we Catholics trust the Holy Spirit to guide us. This is why I am confident in much of I say. When we make a mistake, the Spirit corrects us and sets us on the right path again. In this life, we are all learners. But having God on our side helps! Evil is the absence of goodness, and absence of goodness exists! This also goes for marriages, since this is the topic of the day.

 
This discussion is now closed.