Do you believe euthanasia should be permitted in Ireland?

# 208

Posted: 18/08/2010 16:13

Hi, I'm a features journalist and I'm looking to write an awareness raising piece on patients suffering from terminal illness who decided to stop treatment and let the illness take its course. The news hook is Zsa Zsa Gabor's decision to refuse surgery and live out her last days in home but I'm keen to hear people's personal experiences who may have made a similar choice and their reasons why.

The article will be for a national broadsheet and people sharing their experiences would need to be happy being pictured,

If you feel you could contribute to this awarenss raising piece please message me,

Many thanks, Chrissie

# 207

Posted: 19/09/2009 07:13

Hi Guys,

Sorry for being so late in replyingg to you.  As the contents you are looking for are off topic, I would be happy to answer any queries rgrough my priivate address which is info@hobbyfarmproduce.com.

regards,

Paul

# 206

Posted: 28/05/2009 10:12

Hi I too would also be interested to see if others believe in an after life. I was disappointed to read that the "tunnel of light" can be explained away scientifically, always having believed that this was our Lord calling us home to the safety and peace of what lies beyond us here.

# 205

Posted: 28/05/2009 00:19

Hi Paul. Just wondering if you can shed some light on your experience (pun intended). If it happens to everyone I'm probably gonna be having mine very very soon, just as I pop off. I would more than love to know everything that happened to you. I wish you could PM it to me (to save the editor potential hair loss from editing long posts) but I don't think the forum has such a facility. Do you think there is something after this life. Love to know your views. Hope your feeling at least a little bit better.

# 204

Posted: 20/05/2009 20:42

Bluebird,

I would have a lot more respect for your opinion if you were to give reasons for having it. A simple posting saying "I do", or "I do not" believe... is meaningless. Anonymous, thank you for your considered reply.

There is one point that I think I should clear up.As someone who always took the attitude that people who describe having a near death experience as "walking down tunnels and moving towards the light" etc. have merely experienced something that can be not only explained scientifically, but reproduced. Dying brain cells give off certain chemicals that are akin to dopamine and seratonin giving a general feeling of well-being, something like morphine. Fighter pilots, while going through G-Force training in centrafuges experience similar effects.My attitude to that has totally changed since it happened to . Without going into detail (our poor editor, he must hate this topic) I have experienced this NDE for myself. Without going into detail, a lot of my experiences cannot be explained scientifically. My doctors told me that my memories were false and that I could not possibly have remembered anything at one particular stage of when I was in a coma.

To see their ashen faces when I related to them word for word, their conversation, who stood where, what they were wearing, etc., was one of the brighter moments of my life.

To anybody reading this that finds themselves in my situation, or to anyone who is worried for a loved one who is in the process of dying, I would like to make this perfectly clear:Before having a near death experience, death held little fear for me. Since having a NDE, my fear of death is none - none at all. (Dying however still scares the pants off me. :)

I have ruthlessly edited my post as our long suffering editor is becoming suicidal everytime he sees one of my lengthy postings.

Hopefully, someone will find some solace in this post. I will post what I have edited in a later posting when our editor feels up to the replies he is going to get from it so watch this space! ;)

Regards,

Paul

# 203

Posted: 18/05/2009 09:32

bluebird, I challenge you to read Paul Clarke's posts - all of them with one shred of decent human compassion and then say honestly whether you think somneone in his situation should be denied thenornal human dignity of choosing how they want to say their farewells to their loved ones and leave this world.

# 202

Posted: 14/05/2009 21:01

No I would not support euthanasia in Ireland.

# 201

Posted: 08/05/2009 00:08

Just on this point on mental illness. It is my understanding that if an individual does not have the capacity to consent, there will be an appraisal of what is in the individuals best interests. A young child for example will usually have medical decisions made by its parents. However every case is completely dependent on the individual patient. I can say with certainty that a sentient human being, without the capacity to request euthanasia, or even appreciate what euthanasia means will not be euthanized. If it were to be legalized it would be subjected to best interests tests like all medical treatments.

What I find particularly interesting is that a person that is in a persistent vegetative state can in effect be euthanized if the courts consider it in her best interests. However this is by the means of withdrawing feeding tubes (which is classified as an omission rather than an act). And the courts have gone to extraordinary lengths to classify this as a withdrawal of treatment in the best interests of the patient , where this treatment is futile and is not of any benefit to the patient.

I believe it is right not to prolong individuals in a futile vegetative state and being subjected to invasions to their bodily integrity, however I find it difficult to see the clear line between removing a feeding tube from a mentally incapacitated individual who has no interests and administering a lethal cocktail of drugs to the same individual. Both will result in death. However one course is drawn out and classified as an omission and the other will result in immediate death and is an action?

It is also interesting that those in a PVS state, with no interests or capacity to feel pain, can avail of a release where as some one with mental awareness and capacity to appraise their condition themselves do not have the option of a painless release.

So as we stand today you can legally starve to death or reject all palliative care which is rather indignant, but you cannot have a medically controlled dignified death. I think this represents a state where the law and reason has not kept pace with the realities of contemporary medicine.

# 200

Posted: 06/05/2009 19:03

Hi Buzz,

Thank you for your posting.

The fact that my meds have been reduced in some cases, and stopped in others, despite the fact that my health has deteriorated (I was taken by ambulance to hospital last week due to high levels of pain) I must not allow the fact to depress me because then I would not be considered of sound mind and capable of making my own decisions.

If I could offer advice to anyone who is looking forward to a disgusting death without hope of reprieve with your loved ones watching on, you are being denied treatment because you had cause to complain about your treatment (or lack thereof) you are in constant pain and discomfort, you know that things are going to get a lot worse and are not going to get better, you should present yourself as happy and content, otherwise people might think that you are depressed and are therefore not capable of making decisions for yourself.  (Sorry for any typos but my tongue is stuck firmly in my cheek)  ;)

Strangely enough, I haven't received any offers on a free holiday at my house.  I cannot understand it because we live in a beautiful spot close to the airport.  Perhaps my previous posting got people thinking before they started typing.

As a matter of interest, I recently had some lambs killed for the table.  I had intended  holding onto them but due to my health, I am unable to look after them properly so I in effect had them euthanised.  I thought this would be preferable to letting them starve to death.  (That would have been a slow, painful and uncomfortable death for them)  The abbatoir dispatched them within seconds and they did not suffer at all.  Would any of the do-gooders or bible-bashers out there please advise me if I did the wrong thing, will I go to hell for killing them?  When I feed them to my family, is that a sin?

Anyway, I'm off now to take a paracetemol.  This will adaquately deal with my brain tumour, my lupus, my addison's disease, my cardiac problems caused by the side effects of medications designed to keep me alive longer and my lung disorder.  Hopefully, it will stop me from gasping for breath and take away some of the panic.  Oops, I forgot, I can't afford paracetamol, the 10 euro allowance I so generously get runs my oxygen machines for about 3 hours.  I only have another 67 hours a week left to pay for.

I would like to thank everyone out there for covering the cost of my care through their taxes.  I would love to save you some money but the state dictates that you must pay for me for as long as they can keep me breathing.  I would be able to breathe better now if I had a CPAP but I am expected to pay for it first in expectation of being reimbursed for same.  Decisions, decisions, decisions.  Will I take paracetamol, switch on my machines to give me oxygen, feed my family, loose my house so that I can get a CPAP?  Life is so interesting, one would wonder why anyone would want to leave it.

If I come across as sounding a little bitter, that's because I am.  Should just one person who is so voiciferous against Euthanasia care to spend an afternoon with my family and I, and not change their views, I will retract every word I have said to date.

They could film me but would not be allowed broadcast it before the 9o'clock watershed.  Perhaps I should make the decision not to suffer before that time.  Oh, I forgot, I didn't wake up one morning and decide to have my health problems.

One piece of good news, I suffer from sleep apnoea.  My wife no longer wakes me up when I have an attack so perhaps I will not have to linger for as long as I fear.  It would have been nice though to be able to plan ahead and have my loved ones around me with a smile rather then live the life they have to not knowing if daddy, hubby, son, brother, friend, etc will be alive this time next week but I must take into consideration the feelings of people who feel the need to spout on about what they know little or nothing about.

Perhaps had I euthanised myself a few weeks ago, it would have been a terrible mistake, after all, my dandruff appears to have cleared up - who would have guessed.  ;)

Regards,

Paul

# 199

Posted: 06/05/2009 16:44

To correct my post

What I meant to type was

A justification I can think of is that mental illness, for example depession in particular is largely transient in nature and UNLIKE advanced incurable terminal cancer, is treatable and is not terminal in any way.

Apologies for any confusion / offence.

# 198

Posted: 06/05/2009 16:35

Hi Paul

Your post made me laugh (not at you of course) but I find your humour quite dry :) It is indicative of the ridiculous red tape that we must fight through in our medical profession that they worry about addiction to drugs prescribed for terminal illness. if they had their way, we would all just get a "one size fits all" dispirin and that would be it! How are you coping with cutdown on meds?

# 197

Posted: 06/05/2009 16:33

Hi Maura I am not disagreeing with you but I dont actually understand your post. Surely advanced cancer is terminal and cannot be treated? (in most cases) correct me if I have mis read your post - apologies if I have, very sleeeeepy this afternoon zzzz :)

# 196

Posted: 06/05/2009 13:58

Hi Buzz and all.

A justification I can tink of is that mental illness, for example depession in particular is largely transient in nature and advanced incurable terminal cancer, is treatable and is not terminla in any way.

I have no experience in this to speak of but that is what I would see as being in the way of euthanasia being legalised for mental illnesses.

Alternative opinions please do correct me if I'm wrong.

Kind Regards - Maura.

# 195

Posted: 06/05/2009 13:38

I am delighted to see this discussion reopen. Just to update you, many of my pain meds have been cut, others stopped, the reason - so I don't get addicted!

It is very comforting to know that when I thankfully die a "Natural" death, I can go in the knowledge that I will not be an addict after my passing. Also that those do-gooders who use off the wall arguements forcing me to enjoy a life of sheer hell with my loved ones watching on feel better about themselves for taking such moral high ground.

I would invite ANYONE who disagrees with euthanasia - or for that mattter, access to information on same, to come and stay at my house for a few hours. At least one of us is guaranteed to find a cure!

Paul Clarke

# 194

Posted: 06/05/2009 10:27

Hi there, yes of course I agree, I wasnt for one moment saying that one is less serious than the other, and in fact we can go on to say that although depression can be exacerbated by trauma or emotional upheavel the actual clinical reasoning behind it is of course biochemical, therefore technically it IS a physical disease. My only query (or concern) would be that people (in particular those of the anti euthanasia movement) might try to build the bridge between mental illness and not being able to make sound decisions as a justification for not allowing those mentally ill to make decisions about their life.

# 193

Posted: 05/05/2009 18:10

Hey Buzz, as someone who has suffered depression and attempted suicide in the past I would never view mental illness as somehow below the physical. They can also be intrinsically linked. I read a funny (in a strange way) article from the anti-euthanasia movement that attempted to show that statistically at least 1 in 5 of the physically terminally ill who availed of euthanasia services was deemed clinically depressed.

My only response was, duh, they were dying. You get depressed about dying and leaving loved ones behind amongst other issues. In fact if they weren't depressed I would investigate further. Morons.

In reality I feel that they have more of a parallel, they hurt in many ways as badly as physical terminal illness but along different lines. They have different methods of dealing with the issues of mental and physical illness. Talking issues through or moving a person from a location which they find depressing and oppressive may assist a person with mental distress (not trying to be flippant or saying that actually will help all) whereas if a person has terminal cancer it may only help that persons depression but will not help the underlying terminal condition.

For the present time I feel that the fight to legalize euthanasia in any of its forms should be focused on the terminally physically ill as we have no hope of changing their outcome no matter what therapy or procedure we engage in.

I do believe that Ireland is far far behind some other nations in recognizing mental illness as a truly serious issue which requires funding, care and legal and economic recognition. This amazes me more considering we live in a drink obsessed culture which is itself a depressant. Having had 3 friends in recent years suffer alcohol related death on a backing of depression, including 1 directly attributed suicide, I feel we have a long way to go and a healthcare executive not willing to go there.

# 192

Posted: 05/05/2009 11:51

If someone is allowed to submit themselves for assisted suicide based on a physical condition, then what would be the stance on mental disorders? Given that a lot of mental disorders are, too,quite severe, and can cause a different but just as devastating type of suffering. Are we now to say that, after years of fighting for recognition from the medical profession and to remove social stigma, that mental illness is not as serious and therefore sufferers do not enjoy the same entitlements (be it treatment, sick leave, compassion, euthanasia) as those with Physical illness??

Or is it a case that they should be afforded the same options but the area becomes grey as the ability to make sound decisions comes into play?

Any views?

Regards

# 191

Posted: 03/05/2009 17:00

Realistically it is inevitable that euthanasia or assisted suicide will be legalised. There seems to be a majority in favour of it. The examples of the Dutch and Oregon systems show that it can be sufficiently regulated.

From a legal perspective we seem to have a sufficiently devolved law of consent to ensure abuses will be kept to a minimum. Our criminal law suggests that a doctor treating a patient will not break the chain of causation and be held legally or morally culpable. And of course it is up to the individual doctor whether he/she wishes to be involved. Legislation could simply spell this out. And as simply as that the individual's morals, ideals of dignity etc can dictate their fate.

And just to cover myself I am advocating autonomy for those who are discriminated against because of their unbearable standard of life when they are suffering from severe illness.

I strongly agree and sympathise with Paul Clarke and his posting on the 12/12/2008. There is too much non sensical noise being made by those who seem to be representing the no side of the debate. In particular nothing has angered me as much as those who heckled and intimidated the lecturer in Cork hospital. In my opinion those protestors portrayed themselves as arrogant, ignorant and do not contribute anything constructive to the opposing argument.

# 190

Posted: 30/12/2008 05:44

Anonymous,

Thanks for your informative posting.  I was going by what I had been told by a Health Professional whose word in this case is questionable and I stand corrected.

Thank you for your useful advice.

Paul

# 189

Posted: 17/12/2008 10:21

Paul, you have my respect and I am not going to disagree. However, it was my understanding that, as of sometime in the mid to early 80's when the legislation was changed, the word of a spouse could not be taken when it came to sectioning someone - afterall there is a history behind this, which possibly it would not be appropriate to post here. However, I'm sure your spouse would be supportive in ensuring you weren't sectioned against your will. I also understood that the agreeement of 3 doctors, 2 of whom had to be psychatrists invclved with the patients care AND either the agrement of the patient to volunteer for psychiatric care OR a court order in a case where the patient is a danger to themselves or others (where the patient is proven to be of unsound mind, which in your case you are not). Check out the legal aspects to it with someone qulaified in the most up to date medical law. Having an adult commited in ireland is not as easy as it as in the 70's. Your experience of legal costs is very very daunted. Bless your courage in going ahead with it. I missed your article inthe Mail, maybe it's online tho. That's an excellent point wiht regard to 9-11 altho unbeleiveable as it may sound, some would argue that they may have jumped hoping that somehow miraculously would save them.

I see what you mean, not only is euthanasia illegal but information and means of access is also illegal. Would this make medical referal, for example to another E.U state also illegal I wonder? If so, is that then open to challenge under EU law I wonder? Of course you have more than enough battles of your own to fight without that too. I agree, medical treatment should be a human right and in any decent civilied society it would be.

# 188

Posted: 16/12/2008 15:25

Anonymous,

Thanks for your reply and I would like to echo your sentiments. Lou, you make a very good point when you talk about "duty" and I would consider myself to be standing corrected and would go further to say that I was enforcing my views on others. I was just very annoyed when I posted - no excuse I know.

Anonymous, to be sectioned in Ireland, you need two doctors, one of whom is a phsychiatrist, or a phsychiatrist and a spouce to agree that the person in question is not of sound mind before a committal is legal. As my complaint is still being investigated, I cannot go into it in any detail. I can however talk about the implications of making a complaint against the medical profession in Ireland.

One point that I think is important to make, if the person that is making the complaint dies while the complaint is still under investigation, the complaint dies with that person. I am told that I can expect the complaints procedure to last 7 years. Irrespective of the financial loss suffered by that persons spouce, while the spouce is entitled to follow a civil complaint, there is a cap of €48,000 on the amount of damages awardable. Because amongst other things, you need at least 2 letters from consultants from the UK (The Irish medical profession prohibits using Irish Consultants), my wife and I have worked out that in the event of my death, it would cost about €78,000 for her to follow the complaint through to an uncertain conclusion.

Anonymous, I agree with you when you say it is an OUTRAGE and I never would have believed it could happen in this country until it happened to me. What I posted was a mere dot on the page of my negative experiances at the hands of the medical profession in Ireland. There was in fact a lenghty article in The Irish Sunday Mail about my case however, they had to hold back on a lot of the story in order to protect both the medical profession and themselves against being sued. It is only that my wife had the sense of mind to copy paperwork from my hospital files that we could proove some of the facts. I cannot prove the content of telephone conversations etc.

Reno as per usual makes great points and always has something intelligent and positive to say and I must say I enjoy reading his postings.

One last point I would like to make before driving our long suffering editor nuts - I was watching with sadness images of 9-11. It was showing some poor unfortunate people falling to their certain deaths from above where the planes struck the towers. Those poor souls did not choose to be in the building when the planes struck. Their only choice was to stay and burn to death, or to jump to certain death. As we watched these people fall, did anyone judge them badly for what was in effect suicide? Would the Catholic Church deem them to have died in sin for taking their own lives? Should they have clung to the gift of life as long as possible while they burned? In my case, it is not death that worries me. Dying scares the pants off me. There is medication easily available to make my passage easy and dignified. With current legislation, not only is it unavailable to me, but the information that I would need in order to self euthanise with any degree of efficiency is unavailable to me. I understand that if I had that information and was to publish it, or pass on that information to someone whom I thought might use it, I would be breaking the law and would leave myself open to prosecution. The reality of the situation is that if the service or information was available to me, my life expectancy would be longer and the quality of my life would be far better. Also, because of the fact that I am ill and cannot work, my income is severely restricted (my wife receives carers allowance which works out at about 78 cents per hour) meaning that I cannot afford equipment such as a CPAP to lessen my discomfort so this current thread is a two edged sword. Not having money makes a HUGE differance to your medical treatment or lack thereof in Ireland. I think that proper medical treatment should be a human right rather than priviledge, irrespective of that person's financial standing.

I am far from alone in my predicament.

Paul

# 187

Posted: 16/12/2008 09:48

Good points there Lou,

Oh Paul, to be denied treatment - of any sort and especially end of life treatment is an absolute OUTRAGE. And to deny a patient adequate pain control is medical misconduct of the grossest kindand frankly bordering criminal to my mind. That is not the action of any commited medical professional.

You are not permitted pain control by injection in case you get addicted. Pardon my ignorance here and I don't wish to be unkind or nasty in any way but if a patient has terminal cancer and their lives are being shortend and hastened by the illness surely an addiction should be the absolute last concern for any doctor (outside the U.S. presumably, where I understand such practise to be rife).With regard to the possibility of ending ones own life - overdose etc, I understand the legal positionto be that an adult - and I beleive that a person doing so in your position is of sound mind, cannot be sectioned or indeed treated against thier will., This is, ineffect, the same as holding someone against their will (like kidnap or false imprisonment) and assault & battery. Some fantastic points from Reno there Paul. Have you considered a living will to dictate how your treatment shgould progress. I have also heard of DNR orders.,where [past a certain point, in concoandance with the patients wishes, an ordr of 'Do Not Resuscitate' is invoked].

# 186

Posted: 12/12/2008 15:47

Another 2 points of interest. I was reading up about social issues re euthanasia and one of the common arguments is that if Physician assisted euthanasia were to be made legal, there would be a temptation for the pharmaceutical companies to focus less on palliative and hospice treatment, and invest more in euthanasia drugs to speed up death. I dont belive that this argument can justify denying people the right to die, but it certainly highlights the fact that it is not just a case of legalisation - it would also require strict and thorough legislation.

One point for the other "view" that was made was that as long as we continue to deny legal access to euthanasia then people will continue to seek out methods for themselves which may not be as easy as routes which are medically recognised and assisted. It is similar to the backstreet abortions that happened years ago where women were forced to seek abortions at the hands of untrained people looking to cash in. (I am not saying that I agree with abortion - that issue has no place here - but just to draw a parallel to highlight the point re euthanasia).

# 185

Posted: 12/12/2008 12:57

Paul, if there was a referendum tomorrow people do not have a "duty" to vote yes - thats the whole point of a referendum, that it is up to each individual to vote as they see fit. That said, I have read your posts and taken what you said on board and I now see that as I am fortunate enough not to be terminally ill (and also nobody close to me who is in the same situation) I do not have the right to tell someone who IS in that situation how they should live or die. It was insensitive of me and I apologise.

I think you made a very good point when you said "If we permit the medical profession to play God when it comes to supporting life, surely it should follow that we allow the medical profession to play God when it comes to death" - something that I was pondering myself. People say we cannot play God yet every day scientists and medical professionals DO try to play God (classic examples include genetic engineering, "designer" babies, in-utero surgery, nanotechnology, space travel etc)

regards

# 184

Posted: 12/12/2008 02:28

Let me give you some facts about the reality of suffering from a terminal illness in Ireland.

I live in the West of Ireland and was lucky enough to have spent a few weeks in Galway Hospice. A wonderful experience which made life liveable for me however, as there are only 12 beds to service an area larger than counties Galway and Mayo my stay there was limited.

Being unemployed because of my illnesses does not give me the option of a private nursing home and being married means my wife is also my carer so the State is off the hook when it comes to a public nursing home/hospital.  No doubt my last breath will ultimately be in some curtained cubicle at the back of A&E. Not having money makes a huge difference to your medical treatment or lack thereof in this country.

Without going into detail, I was forced to make a complaint against a health professional, the result of which is that I am being not only being denied treatment by palliative care in Galway, Mayo, Sligo and Dublin, but my other care-givers have been instructed not to give me adequate pain control.

It is only through my own research and a GP that is prepared to prescribe limited pain control that I get any relief at all. I am not permitted pain control by injection in case I get addicted. Should euthanasia be allowed in Ireland, I wonder will they steralise the needle that delivers the fatal injection to prevent infection?

Just over a year ago, after clinically dying from clots on my lungs (an experience which still torments me with nightmares) I made the doctors very happy by recovering from a six day coma. I remember coming around in ICU with tangles of wires and tubes attached to me and what appeared to be something from "alien" stuck on my face forcing oxygen into me.

I will never forget the pain, fear and discomfort I suffered at that time. I had survived! This great medical success gave me back a life of pain and lack of dignity with the certain knowledge that my quality of life would not improve and that I have to die again, only this time over a much longer period with additional pain and intolerable suffering.

If we permit the medical profession to play God when it comes to supporting life, surely it should follow that we allow the medical profession to play God when it comes to death.  Jesus only had to die once and not taking away from what (I personally believe) he did for us, he did not suffer for months or years.In fact, he was back on his feet in three days with something to look forward to.

During my stay in ICU, I witnessed many people's deaths. With few exceptions, this idea people have of slipping peacefully away is a Hollywood myth. In Ireland today, should I walk into any hospital and say "I want help to give up smoking", I will be allocated a trained professional for 1 hour and prescribed nicotine patches. If you are my position, you are sent home or referred to a different doctor with a 2 year 8 month waiting list. It's a bit like having a 10 month waiting list for a pregnancy test!  The medical profession cannot deal with patients that are terminally ill and beyond medical help.

The point has been made that euthanasia is not the answer to the problem but better palliative care is. I agree that we need far better palliative care but as a complement to, rather than a replacement of the answer to the problem.  I used to believe that nobody suffered unduly when terminally ill in this country.  I have found to my cost that this is in reality not the case. 

Despite the fact that the correct drugs, equipment and staff are available, it doesn't follow that they are available to all.  Not having money rules out a lot of treatment for me.  There is certain medical equipment that I am entitled to however, I have to buy it first in anticipation of being reimbursed by the State.  When you havn't the money to buy it in the first place, you have to go without it and the State gets off scott free.

People equate euthanasia to acts such as killing off old people to get an early inheritance.Those sorts of arguments are ludicrous. What we are talking about is people of sound mind who are suffering intolerably and without hope of relief being allowed to make their death relatively easy, putting an end to their suffering without the fear of failure and prosecution to themselves or their loved ones - a no-brainer in my opinion. Do you want to live in a society that enforces unnecessary pain and suffering on the most vulnerable of people possible?

There is one legal option available to palliative care services in Ireland whereby the patient is put under a general anaesthetic at an agreed time and kept under while nature takes its course.Due to financial restrictions, this option is available to only a small percentage of terminal patients. Should money be made available for this service, it would largely remove a lot of people from the "wanting Euthanasia" waiting list. Perhaps the do-gooders and the Nathanael's of this world would be willing to pay? I think their strongly held beliefs would not extend from their bibles to their wallets!

In this day and age, pain is treatable however, few drugs come without side effects. If a side effect of treating discomfort and pain is death, so be it. Should euthanasia be legalised in Ireland, obviously the legislators would have to build in checks and balances. Nobody is advocating the abuse of laws permitting euthanasia, nor is anyone suggesting making it compulsory.

One thing I do know for sure, if euthanasia was an option for me, the quality of the remainder of my life would be a lot better.  Unfortunately, existing laws and the fact that I have no money condemn me to a "Life" of suffering.  There will come a point where I will be alive, but better off dead.  Should I decide to attempt to end my life by for instance, by taking an overdose, I will be treated against my will and then likely sectioned against my will to be forcefully kept alive.  I put as much value on life as anyone else but I did not choose to have my illnesses.  Surely, I should be allowed to choose how not to die.  It is not death that scares me, it is dying.  Allowing euthanasia in Ireland would remove that fear from people in my position.  Should there be a referendum in the morning, while it is not an easy decision, I think everyone has a duty to vote yes.

# 183

Posted: 12/12/2008 01:55

To expand on my previous posting, I have just read the entire thread from the start right through and I feel I cannot rest until I have answered several posts which leave me seething with anger.  At the editor's request, I have broken down what I have to say into seperate postings and edited out a lot so apologies in advance for the long posts.

I am suffering from a terminal illness and due to the fact that euthanasia is not available in Ireland, I am writing this in discomfort, pain and fear with nothing to look forward to apart from a long protracted disgusting death while my loved ones watch helplessly.

I was raised in Ireland as a Catholic.  When I reached the age of reason, I took the conscious decision to leave "the club", not because I don't believe in God, but because of people like Nathanial.  Nathanial, you bumble your way through life parading your ignorance whilst forcing your views on others. You are an overt hypocrite. Hiding behind the shield of your version of Christianity, you and your ilk are proactive in breaking the rules of Christianity by being judgemental and taking away the gift of free will from others. 

Let me give you an example: Suppose that you (like me) are suffering from a terminal illness and have nothing other than a disgusting death to look forward to and decide to self euthanize. You go on the internet and Google in something like "How to self euthanize". You will find any amount of sites put up by Christian do-gooders like you telling me how bad/wrong/sinful / etc I am.  You will not find the information you are looking for. You will however find a lot of misinformation. You enforce your tenets on others with no doubt a smug smile on your face and a feeling of self-satisfaction and a job well done. It is because of "good practising christians" like you that make me ashamed to call myself a Christian.

Let's call a spade a spade, the louder people like you bash your bibles, the less Christian you are. You hijacked this forum for your own ends and you were very careful to keep this thread off topic so let's try to get back on topic.Whether Euthanasia sits well with Christianity or not is another debate entirely and is just one small facet of this topic.

If I were to address all you had to say point by point, the forum editor wouldn't see a day off for weeks. Suffice it to say that as someone who has a terminal illness, I think that qualifies me to voice my opinion strongly and I find your postings to be offensive, inaccurate, dogmatic, condescending, misleading and insensitive to say the very least.(No doubt I will rot in your hell for saying that!)

The topic is: Do you believe euthanasia should be permitted in Ireland? Perhaps the topic should be Do you believe in the right to information about self or assisted euthanasia in Ireland? The only information I have found is that I am a bad person for even contemplating the subject followed by a lot of spouting about how grateful I should be to have the gift of pain, discomfort and fear so that I can offer it up to God. 

I would invite you to walk a day in my shoes.  Come and see me and then perhaps you will judge yourself before you judge me.

# 182

Posted: 10/12/2008 14:54

Lou, I wasn't sayingyou need anyone's blessing; however, equally, somebody who is suffering terminally is entitled to end that sufgfering - it is the their life.

I did not accuse yuu of cruelty, I am sorry if it came across wrong. All I meant was that if someone kept a dog or cat the same way as the orogoinal poster was suffering (and you're not you're looking after your pet) it would be cruel.

Nor was I insulting the mentally ill - I was just saying that with depression, there is an end to it. It is pedominantly transient. Not so with a termoinal disease. There is reallyno need to be so defensive.

# 181

Posted: 10/12/2008 09:41

I am sure a lot of people out there have either suffered from or been affected by someone else's suffering from mental illness. Technically, you can say "well this person has good and bad days" but to assume that someone with severe mental illness "looks forward" to days where symptoms are not so strong is absurd to say the least, and at the very best demonstrates how little you know about this type of illness. For far too long, healthcare professionals (and indeed society) have thought of physical illness as far more serious than mental illness and this is wrong. It is people like you who have contributed to the stigma that is still attached to mental disease. Do you not realise that it too is chemical? It is not just "all in someones head" and if you knew anything at all about these diseases you would know full well that people who are at an all time low do not "look forward to better days" because for them, their reality is in THAT VERY MOMENT when they feel like they cannot go on. To try to distinguish between mental and physical illness and worse, to try to say that one is less serious than the other is noting short of archaic and smal minded.

# 180

Posted: 10/12/2008 09:36

"You have removed the choice from me through YOUR morals and forced me to look forward to enduring that death." - NOT TRUE. I have not decided the LAW.

And I "want you to suffer so I can feel good about my cat" - that doesnt even make SENSE! Please explain to me how making someone suffer will in any way benefit my pets pain management programme? I would like to know how you arrived at such a conclusion.

# 179

Posted: 10/12/2008 02:33

@Lou. Right back at you with all due respect but I couldn't disagree with you more on several aspects. In fact for the majority or what you said neither could the Irish legislature or judiciary (I am legally qualified/trained BTW).

As regards whether to allow an animal to suffer is a personal decision, it is in fact not a personal decision but has been legislated for after years of fighting by animal welfare groups and the publics moral and social conscience. It is firmly enshringed in Irish law that deliberate, negligent or wanton disregard of the creation or continuation of enduring harm caused to an animal viewed from the objective standpoint of the 'reasonable man' is an offence by law and is therefore punishable. The mere fact that a traditional courtesy and custom in practice exists between vet to owner to pet as regards when such pain should be ended does not grant an animal owner a legal right to permit an animal to suffer. It does in fact forbade the granting of such a right. It is judicially enforced under certain circumstances but IMHO not enough. In contrast the law as regards the suffering of human beings who find themselves in terminal positions is that those people and their families are precluded not only from a right to end the pain of the terminally ill but also they shall face criminal sanction. Nor is the opinion of the medical fraturnity allowed to factor into the equation either way. It is a blanket ban which ignores all evidence of the individual case at hand from all sides. In my mind that deminishes the rights of Irish citizens to less than those of a dog and criminalises the caring of others by both loved ones and the medical fraturnity. To me it is inhumane to criminalise the human emotions of compassion and love.

As for your quote "I dont think there is ANYONE qualified to make a decision between life and death, whether it is someone elses or their own" again the law disagrees. The living will allows a person of sound mind at the time of its making to dictate and ensure prospectively that if they were to find themselves in a position where they could no longer make cognitive decisions for themselves as to treatment such a document will dictate how future medical treatment is to proceed, if at all. Therefore the law in Ireland does deem the person in question qualified to dictate such matters pertaining to their own life. In the absense of a living will the medical fraturnity has been deemed qualified to determine matters of continued medical treatment (and therefore the patients life and conditions of same) since long before the birth of our republic, much of the time against the known prior oral (or even written) wishes of the patient in question. I would encourage all those reading this, whichever side you may fall upon, to hit the link below, for both your own sake the those of your loved ones in the future.

http://livingwilltrust.health.officelive.com/default.aspx

Regards your other comment "Think of a person who suffers chronic and severe depression. They will want to die just as much as one in physical pain -what would the medical profession think of that?" I have in the past suffered from severe mental depression leading to several suicide attempts and cries for help in my mid to late teens and have a tendency to become depressed even to this day and suffer from mental illness which I have learned to control (I am one of the few lucky ones). Lou as you rightly stated mental illness is incredibly severe, severe enough to convince me to overright the basic human objective of survival at those moments. I do not believe its seriousness should ever me diminished.

For me, and I will only ever speak of my own feelings as regards suicidal thoughts and rationalisations as they vary greatly person to person, I wished to end my life previously due to feelings or worthlessness. As such I did not believe I deserved dignity, self respect and respect from others as a person. With my thoughts turning to my potential forthcoming euthanasia my feelings could not be more polarised. I now demand that I should be allowed to die with the dignity I deserve and have acquired which is within myself, I wish to maintain my self respect in my final days on earth, and I would wish not to be disrespected by the laws of this land (and therefore others) in ending my life to preserve my dignity.

Furthermore, if a patient who is suffering a mental illness such as depression would wish to euthanize themselves such a matter is not for a doctor of medicine to make a determination, but for a doctor of psychiatry. They both may wear white coats but they are totally different fields. I do not believe an establishment/extension of the right of euthanasia should or has realistically been contemplated by those who advocate euthanasia for the terminally ill or those suffering prolonged intolerable physical pain to those whose primary influence is of a psychiatric nature. It stands as a matter and debate for the medical profession only.

It should be noted that in this country the establishment of laws comes from the Executive branch of government ratified almost unquestioningly by the Oireachtas. IMHO no politician should ever be allowed determine such a right of the people of this country. Do you trust Mary Harney or another politician driven by other motives to determine your right to live and indeed die. It is for the people alone to determine their rights in such matters through constitutional referenda. The lives of the people determined by the voice of the people.

Finally as this is a question of legality of euthanasia and many have quoted morals and in some cases christian morals (among others) may I post the teachings of St. Thomas Aquinas as regards the requirements to create a just law.

To be just, a law must be good as to:(1) its end: it must be ordered to the common good;(2) its author: it must not exceed the jurisdiction of the one who imposes it;(3) its form: it must not place disproportionate burdens on any of the subjects involved.A law, however, that is unjust in any of these ways does not impose any obligation. That is, a law ceases to have binding force if any of these is true:(1) it is not ordered to the common good, but merely to the private good of those who impose it;(2) it exceeds the authority of those who impose it;(3) it places disproportionate burdens on any of the people in the community

"An unjust law is no law at all". I will not follow the unjust laws of this state if it so demands me to. It is against my conscience to do so as both a student and proponent of law and as a human being.

Euthanasia can be peaceful (from what my research had told me) if handled properly and conducted with the right medication. I cannot state the name of such medication as I have already used it and the editor has seen fit to edit it out (as is his/her just right to do so and their decision is final). If all goes well with my health next month I will hopefully never have to tell you if that is so. If it does not I won't be able to tell you anyway. I hear Meteors coverage beyond the grave isn't all that good.

My love of life, my undying love for my friends and family, is what will make me hold on to this life for as long as is possible within me until the pain becomes too much. It is the undying love of my family and my friends for me that I wish to be allowed to show through in those final days, to let their love and compassion end a life which will only be causing me pain and suffering. That is what makes us human and I would love them yet more for doing this final act for me.

A politician I neither know nor who cares for me or my loved ones has deemed this a criminal act.

# 178

Posted: 09/12/2008 14:52

The differance is that the cat and those suffering depression have good days to look forward to. What about those of us who are suffering without hope with only the fear of worse days to come. Dying a slow death gasping frantically for air over months while I wait for my heart to fail is not a life I want to live. You have removed the choice from me through YOUR morals and forced me to look forward to enduring that death. I'm sure you would put your cat down if you knew it was suffering horrendous fear, pain and discomfort with no possibility of remittance. Why do you expect me to suffer so you can feel good about your cat?

Paul

# 177

Posted: 09/12/2008 09:24

Anonymous, as the cats owner, and having consulted with numerous vets I AM entitled to keep him alive without your blessing and without being accused of cruelty by others. We keep him comfortable, he is on a pain management programme and like I said, he has good days and bad (with the good ones becomming more frequent). It is not fair of you to accuse one of cruelty just becuase they are doing their best. I recognise that there is of course a difference between animals and humans, but can I point out that I was not the one to bring it up in the first place - I am simply defending my actions. Finally, please do not insult the metally ill by claiming that it is not as severe as physical illness. You are not qualified to make such distinctions and yes you will find that sever depression (not to mention bipolar disorder, mania, personality disorders, schizophrenia) are INCURABLE ie they can be managed but one will never be totlaly free form them. Regards

# 176

Posted: 08/12/2008 15:55

To be fair, a cat or dog is not like a human in that it does not reason and nor is it in a postion to make such decisions (which is why owners make the decisons for them) - a human being is. And in fairness, someone who allowed an animal to suffer to that extent, would be considered inhumane. The only person qualified to make a decsion like Reno is talking about, is Reno. Why should others beliefs take precedence over her decisons for her life, which can only be principally and primarily hers. Properly managed and carefully thought out I can't think why euthanasia wouldn't be peaceful. The difference between severe depression is that it does not involve unending physical agony which has to be ameliorated with heavy medication, sedation and other means, nor is it terminal.

# 175

Posted: 08/12/2008 12:21

"Anyone who would allow a dog or other animal to continue to suffer in this manner would/should be considered inhuman in their failure to act" - with all due respect, something like that is a very personal decision and can only be made between the owner and qualified vets. What some people seem to forget is that life is precious (and I dont mean in a religious way) but it is easy to romanticise the idea of euthanasia. I dont think there is ANYONE qualified to make a decision between life and death, whether it is someone elses or their own. Think of a person who suffers chronic and severe depression. They will want to die just as much as one in physical pain -what would the medical profession think of that?We have a cat at the moment (to go back to your point) who has squamous cell carcinoma. Some vets have told us to put him down, others have disagreed. he has bad days, where I really doubt myself for keeping him alive. I am riddled with guilt and feel like the most selfish person in the world. On such days, some would be tempted to have him "put to sleep" however (as is the resilisant nature of animals) he bounces back and he looks for food and cuddles. the meals he enjoys and the cuddles and hugs he gets are precious. Life is precious. Then we wonder how we could have even considered having him euthanased. Also euthanasisa is not as peaceful as a lot of people think.

# 174

Posted: 08/12/2008 12:08

Oh Reno you are not a coward not at all. But pleae do discuss pain management options with a cancer specialist as nowadays there should be no need for any patient whatsoever to be reeling arched and clenched screaming in agony - none at all as there are excellent pain management tecniques from pethidene up to morphone and bromptons. Tho of course, I agree, it is your life and your choice. Best of luck

# 173

Posted: 07/12/2008 17:43

I'm 31 and been showing signs of colon cancer (I pretty much check every box). I have appointments coming up in a month and a half for gastroscopy and hopefully a colonoscopy to make the determination. To me its already been made and due to the symptoms it would already be a stage 3-4. At the moment I am still of sound body and mind, aware of my surroundings and very cognizant of putting my family through the torture of seeing me die and having to care for me as I die a horrible, prolonged, painful and undignified death. I am also very aware of just how hideous this form of death will be. As such I find no rationale for prolonging and enduring a battle which will almost certainly result in my death while causing suffering on all sides. I will not win a moral victory losing a battle to a disease which has no comprehension of morals.

I was brought into this world without my consent. The law in Ireland has determined that in spite of the fact that I have acquired adulthood and a right to vote, to make decisions critical to my life (and others) as a citizen of this country, make critical determinations for those under adult age among others I am not entitled to make a determination as to when my life should end peacefully. It should be noted that committing suicide has been decriminalized since 1993, for good reason.

If such pain where to present itself in a dog any caring owner who loves him/her would end their life by letal injection. Anyone who would allow a dog or other animal to continue to suffer in this manner would/should be considered inhuman in their failure to act. The use of certain drugs have been shown to allow a loved one to slip away peacefully in their sleep. It should, the world has been using it on dog for decades to end their suffering.

Why should I be considered less entitled to compassion than a dog. Why is my life, which those against euthanasia repeatedly state is superior due to my human status, to be denied the compassion of my family and friends in helping me die and the drugs with which to do so with my consent and request. Why should they be considered criminals.

If anyone here would like to meet cancer patients, to listen to them suffer, to tell me I should have to suffer along with them for the good of THEIR MORALS and the morals of the Irish state, tell me that when you are faced with it yourself. Its not life that makes humans unique, everything animal from insect to elephant in the world has life, it is our love and compassion for others which is unique, which makes us human. I want my last moments in this life to be spent smiling, looking into the loving eyes of my mother and sister as I fall asleep in peace, not reeling arched and clenched screaming in agony as they cry helpless tears for one they love. You can call me a coward if you will.

# 172

Posted: 14/11/2008 12:54

Paul, my good wishes to you. You are a case in point - we all like to say, Oh no Euthanasia s wrong bad etc in THEORY. Then someone such as yourself is brave and honest enough to introduce us to REALITY. Not pleasant indeed but reality all the same. The do-gooders never like being presented with hard acts and real life situations. Kudos to you for posting and I wish you peace.

# 171

Posted: 14/11/2008 11:35

As someone who has lupus, addisons, a brain tumour, suspected Parkinson's and have now been diagnosed with a terminal lung condition, my belief that euthanasia should be allowed is only re-inforced. I have been told by my vet that should I keep my animals in the same state that I am been kept in, I would be prosecuted / jailed and never be allowed own animals again. The state is forcing me (with my loved ones watching) to suffer constant pain without hope and to slowly suffocate over months - gasping for breath until I thankfully die. It makes me furious when I read about those do-gooders who make decisions for people like me while they are full of ignorance. Come and see me before putting up your postings!

# 170

Posted: 21/05/2008 01:11

many times i have wished for it,but than its a hard call on the other hand cos who gives the right for one to take another person's life? yet when we see our nearest and dearest left in a bed mind seperated from body,and ongoing pain with some relief from pain meds,incontient etc in this state for years. and watching our loved one deteriorate fragmently over the years is torture. yet they are left to suffer. jesus didnt suffer so long. i am still debating this issue and cant come to a conclusion,but i can say i have reached a point that has caused me to question my faith and even stop goin to mass over the suffern i wittness all day every day. if a horse breaks a leg he is put out of his misery.

# 169

Posted: 13/05/2008 11:59

Easy to say Homer, until you discover the misery of a loved one with a terminal illness with no relief from their agony.
I personally would not wish that on an enemy, never mind a loved one.