Are parents who allow their young children to become obese behaving negligently?

# 78

Posted: 31/10/2010 11:21

You ask how not doing healthy cooking is related to laziness. The answer is that the easy/lazy option is to order chips and burgers or takeaway pizza. It takes a small amount of drive to take the real potatoes and wash them and go to the bother of actually cooking them. So laziness can be of a mental attitude also, not just the physical. It isn’t actually that difficult to cook properly (Jamie Oliver has a whole TV series on 30 minute meals). It does however require somebody to sit up and decide, Yes I am going to eat healthy, rather than passively/lazily lie back and say that my brain has evolved to make me overeat, so there is nothing I can do about it. 

You ask how not taking regular exercise is related to being lazy. I think the answer is obvious to that one.

There wasn’t famine 20, 30 or 40 years ago in Ireland. Yet we didn’t have much in the line of overweight problem then. So no I reject your contention that we are hardwired to overeat. What is different is that we have more money now than we did 20 or 30 years ago, and we have more technology to make our lives easier. Therefore it does take a bit more effort to actually get up and take responsibility for our actions.

I have no real argument with your last paragraph in how an obese person’s brain might be working when they get to the obese stage. However it is long before the obese stage that a person must take responsibility. The brain has not evolved that much in the last 20 or 30 years. How come we didn’t have any weight problem 30 years ago? There is more to it than the functioning of the brain; there is individual responsibility and actions (or lack of)

# 77

Posted: 29/10/2010 14:40

Excuse my lateness - midterm. As I said before, even where you know for a fact that a person is lazy, then there is still a reason for what you term is laziness and without discovering the the underlying reason you cannot tackle the cause and thereby solve the problem longterm. There is nothing wrong with learnign some healthy cooking and taking some regular exercise but how is that related to what you term to be laziness?

With regard to the pysiology behind most people's weight problems.: the truth is, the body is built for eating. It has evolved that way  from times when food was scarce and famine was a real threat. That is how it is hardwired and it’s full of hormones and neurotransmitters to facilitate and maximse this.

Overeating works a bit like drug addiction. Studies show that obese people have reward centers in their brain similar to the reward centers of drug addicts.Stress eating is cyclical. When you eat to reduce stress, you activate the reward centers of your brain. When the feel-good effects wear off, you reach again for the thing that made you feel relaxed: food.Heavy people respond differently to certain foods. For example, in heavy people, the parietal region of the brain -- the control center for the tongue, lips, and mouth -- is activated by sugar. In skinny people, it isn’t.Some cravings are hardwired. When people on a rigid diet crave certain foods, the hippocampus lights up -- triggering a willpower-busting memory of the food and medical studes show this to be related to CNS stress.

# 76

Posted: 14/10/2010 23:12

Anon, Why cannot laziness be the real reason? Why do you persist in trying to find a different underlying cause? Please tell me why learning some healthy cooking and taking some regular exercise is not the answer? Why would that not work?

40 years ago Ireland did not have a overweight problem. In fact 20 years ago there wasn’t much of an issue. The human species has not evolved that much in the last 20 or 40 years. Technology is the thing that has changed and also general affluence. Humans now have the money and technology to be lazy and lets face us most of us have an inclination to avoid work if possible. So they also need to exercise their responsibility to look after their body and balance their calorie intake versus consumption.

Fair point re the diet books. On the other hand the diet books do work for some people, and some people keep moving til they find the one that suits them and other people sit back on the couch and give up.

# 75

Posted: 14/10/2010 15:58

I think James that it is your good self who needs to "get over it". Why do you simply decide that it;s laziness, a grand pat answer and leave it at the that without trying to fingf the underlying cause? It is only by gettign at the root cause that you actually solve the real problem.  "Simple laziness" is obviously not the same as taking a bit of time to learn some healthy cooking and taking a small bit of regular exercise.  If all those diet books really had a real solutoj that was that simple, why on earth don;t they work. If it was that simpel we wouldn't such an huge (no pun intended) obesity problem.

# 74

Posted: 14/10/2010 12:31

Anon, look on the couch as being metaphorical and then get over it. The couch represents any similar activity that does not address the core inbalance between calorie intake and calorie consumption. Sitting on a bar stool, lying in bed, standing in a lift, sitting in a car can all in certain contexts be seen as similar to sitting on the couch. For some reason you cannot seem to accept that laziness can be a real reason. Why can it not be as simple as that? Why do you need to psycho-analyse beyond that? Why is it not a simple case that for a lot of people it is a simple case of taking a bit of time to learn some healthy cooking and taking a small piece of regular exercise? Healthy eating does not have to be complicated; boiling spuds is not complicated and as most people know twice as healthy for you as chips. Anon, for vast amounts of people this is not a complicated issue. All diet books can be summarised with the two words “Eat Less”. At the root the simple equation of calories in matching calories consumed is the core issue and this simple equation is the one that you continue to avoid.

# 73

Posted: 13/10/2010 16:20

Yes, I am interested in why (tho you're the one continuing to emphasise counces for some reason) because unless one knows the reason  - the REAL reason not just pat statements and glib dismisssals then one cannot come up with a meaningful longlasting solution. A person cannot solve the actual problem unless they know the underlying real (not superficial) cause of the the problem - not the symptom. You are the one avoiding that.  

# 72

Posted: 12/10/2010 22:18

Anon, I am not at all obsessed with people sitting on the couch. In fact the direct opposite; I am obsessed with getting people OFF the couch and out taking exercise and eating healthily, so that their calorie intake can balance their calorie consumption. You are however obsessed with asking people WHY are they sitting on the couch. You are obsessed with avoiding telling people that core to being overweight (medical issues aside) is getting the balance between calorie intake and output.

# 71

Posted: 12/10/2010 15:38

As I have already said James, I find it surprising considering your demeaning attitude and perjorative remarks. This is further demonstrated by your dismissing the psychological approach as "touchy-feely".Where have I ever said anything about sitting down beside someone on the couch. It is you who seem obsessed with people sitting on the couch - not me.

# 70

Posted: 11/10/2010 18:22

Anon, My consistent central message has been that the solution is people taking individual responsibilty for their actions and health. So naturally anyone that wants support in that will get my support. Why would you find that surprising? As I said I have no problem keeping somebody company on a 2 mile walk after dinner if they want company. Your consistent central message is that we must sit down beside the person on the couch and ask WHY, whereas I will remain standing and say lets go for a walk. For people with addiction issues or mental issues your touchy-feely approach may be warranteed, but for vast amounts of people the answer to WHY is that they would prefer to watch XFactor rather that take the action that they know they need to. For somebody who actually wants to take responsibility they will accept the invitation to go on a walk, for others they will find excuses not to. 

# 69

Posted: 11/10/2010 16:02

Indeed and I agreed we each must take whatever responsibility we CAN but in order to take action, we must get to the root cuase of the problem instead of lookinG at the surface, oversimplying, frequently throwing around perjorative terms which harm more than help and leaving it at that. You could not be further form thj truth if you think my attitude is to placate and indulge and clearly you have not understood the tenet of my posts AT ALL. You say that you will help in supporting people but that cetainly doesn't come across in your persistent demeaning remarks and your attitude.

# 68

Posted: 08/10/2010 15:57

My attitude is not being supercilious ( I had to look up the dictionary for that one). I am merely summarising your entire attitude to the overweight problem. My attitude is that we each must take responsibility and action. Your attitude is to placate and indulge, but shy away from putting any onus on the overweight person to do anything. If people are looking for an excuse to not take action, they will find it anyway, they do not need me (finding excuses is the easiest thing in the world). If people want support in taking action, sure I will help, I will go on the two mile walk with the person for company after dinner, I will have them over to dinner, no problem. If people want somebody to sit on the couch beside them, I guess they can count on you.

# 67

Posted: 08/10/2010 14:47

And James, the supercilous arrogant attitude which feeds statements like  "No doubt you have bleeding hearts to pacify and pretend to them that it will all be alright and that they don’t have to worry about calorie intake and the weight will just fall off them, if they can just think of a way to pass the blame onto somebody else. "

is EXACTLY the sort of attitiude which completely puts people off and succeeds only in making the problem worse.

# 66

Posted: 07/10/2010 15:36

I-know-I'm-good, do you work in obesity counselling, clinical endocrinology or the medical management of obesity?

# 65

Posted: 07/10/2010 12:38

Anon, Thanks for accepting that each individual has a responsibility to look after their health. I think I will leave the debate on that positive note. I said that was not uncomfortable addressing your psycho-analytical approach (that is not the same as agreeing with your approach). I accept that for some people there are mental issues that require this approach. I also accept that when somebody gets to the obese stage we are into another level altogether. Where our little debate gets stuck in a never-ending circle is that you cannot face the truth that for a lot of people (at the overweight stage before they get to the obese stage) it is a simple case of taking responsibility for their health and boiling those spuds and taking that 20 min walk, as an alternative to eating chips and sitting on the couch. I think we have both said our piece and it’s probably time to move on; I have spuds to peal. No doubt you have bleeding hearts to pacify and pretend to them that it will all be alright and that they don’t have to worry about calorie intake and the weight will just fall off them, if they can just think of a way to pass the blame onto somebody else.

# 64

Posted: 07/10/2010 09:51

I am able to comment from professional experience. James H has a pretty good sense of the problem that is obesity and his comments are overall fair+he 'sees it' for waht it is. 'Anonymous' on the other hand is complicating a simple problem. Although,obesity is hard to tackle, as it means taking responsibility for ones own actions ie. lose weight by changing food choices and lifestyle decisions. People who are overweight to whatever degree, spend alot ot their free time eating. People who are not overweight dont overeat and either maintain normal weight with exercise or normal portions.I have never met an overweight person who, when they are been honest about their food quantities, sound like food is a way of passing time. The quantities consumed are excessive and when they get a sense of 'normal' food quantities, they are so shocked. They think they will starve to death when they correct their excessive consumption and always struggle with the initial volume reduction/adjustment as there stomach and bowels have been overstretched with the large volumes of food consumed. I am afraid the majority of overweight people, caused by overeating, are lazy people. My sister was one and admits it now. She never did a days exercise since she was 15yrs old and 20 years passed. SHe tipped the scale at something like 18 stone and decided enough was enough as she felt her body clock 'had wear and tear before its time and she was tired of not doing something about it'.. She got informed about what she was misinformed about and exercises 3 times a week. She no longer eats a large dinner and watching tv for the evening. There was no reason other than overeating and lack of exercise-her words not mine. She has lost 3 stone and makes correct food choices now and looks at other heavy people wishing they would tackle a problem they themselves have created.With three stone more to lose and she will do it, as she said she is no longer a lazy lump-again her words not mine. Her tip to someone who is overweight is to stop overeating and get moving. She said it is that simple. The problem is huge, and the solution is small-stop overeating.

# 63

Posted: 06/10/2010 15:53

Yes James and it is its obviousness which makes it silly. But if you really really need me to waste my time answering it for you then  yes, of course we should all take what responsibility we can for our health, just as we should for our wellbeing, our safety and our financial security but that does not mean we should be so smug as to throw around perjorative terms instead of actually trying to help simply because others are less fortunate than ourselves. I am not telling anyone they they are free to do anything - I don't have the right to do so any more than you. I am not the one with the attitude that feeds (no pun intended) perjorative remarks like lazy, simple laziness or sitting on the couch eating rubbish  - which of course you cannot definitively know. Nor do I claim to definitely know peoples' reasons for what they do. Rubbish incidentally is what people put in their bins. You say you are not at all uncomfortable with a psycho-analytical approach but you still brush it off and talk about obese people being passive, lazy and blaming others. THAT is a blame aproach which achieves little or nothing other than putting people off. 

# 62

Posted: 06/10/2010 13:47

Anon, First off there is no such thing as a silly questions; only silly answers. The answer to my question re us all taking responsibility for our health should by rights be obvious. However, given the history of your contributions so far, it is not at all obvious to me that you accept that we each have a responsibility to take action regarding our health. In fact the reverse is indicated in your contributions. You imply that if a person is overweight, they are free to sit on the couch eating rubbish, because it is not their fault, it has nothing to do with calorie intake matching exercise taken and that they can passively sit there waiting for somebody else to sort it out. You are correct in one thing, when you say that without an attitude change there will be no progress. Progress is not a passive activity; blaming others for your problems is a passive activity that will achieve little. Finally I am not at all uncomfortable with addressing your points and your psycho-analytical approach. It is you who are uncomfortable with the blatantly obvious truth that for significant numbers, the answer to why do they continue to sit on the couch is down to simple laziness. You are uncomfortable with the fact that this can by a reason in itself and needs no further analysis, but rather needs the individual to accept responsibility for their health and take action.

# 61

Posted: 05/10/2010 14:58

James the very fact that you are so demeaning as to use expressions like "go all pseud-psychological" makes it clear that not only do you not get the point but you don't want to get the point and in fact it makes you unconfortable to the extent that you'd rather dismiss it with yet more demeaning remarks than recognise it. With attiitudes like that is it any wonder it is almost impossible to make progresssOh and please don't ask queations which are so obvous as to make them almost silly.

# 60

Posted: 04/10/2010 23:36

Anon, Can you even go so far as saying that each of us as a responsibility to take care of our bodies? It would be a pleasant change (and progress) to get such an acknowledgment from you. Please don't go all pseud-psychological on us and simply answer the question.

# 59

Posted: 04/10/2010 16:55

Yet again, James, you completely miss the point. No-one is askingn you to boil spuds or take walks for anyone but yourself. But before action must come knowledge and before knowing what, one must know why - the underlying reason why they don't take the healthy oiption. Without knowing why a person is far less likely to take any meaningful long term action.

Telling people it is "simple laziness" which of course you cannot possibly know but even if it were "simple laziness" telling poeple this is uttterly useless without finding out WHY. In fact it is worse than useless if if it just puts them off and turns them away. While you continue to do this instead of helping people, the problem will just continue to get worse. Yes attitude is one key, finally after multiple posts you seem to be 'getting it'

# 58

Posted: 04/10/2010 09:50

Anon, I see you continue with your persistence that each individual does not have a responsibility to take action themselves. I cannot boil spuds for all the overweight people in Ireland. I cannot take their 20 min walk for them; they must take that responsibility themselves. You refuse to accept this simple fact. You refuse to accept that every individual must exercise that responsibility. You refuse to accept the blatantly obvious fact that the �why� in a significant number of cases is simple laziness. While we have enablers like yourself giving people permission to abuse their body, the problem will not go away. Again I recommend looking at Jamie Oliver in America on C4 tonight; very insightful into where poor attitude to food can lead.

# 57

Posted: 01/10/2010 14:18

Yes, suggestions like 20mins walk or boiling spuds is only half the equation.

The other half is not simply that the individual must actually take that walk or boil that spud, instead of "lounging on the couch in front of the TV" but discovering WHY they "lounging on the couch in front of the TV" rahter than simply dismiss with perjorative remarks like laziness becuase until you why the how will never be meaningful and until something meaningful it does not retain its relevance

# 56

Posted: 28/09/2010 20:30

Anon, giving suggestions like 20mins walk or boiling spuds is only half the equation. The next step that you refuse to accept is that the individual human being must actually take responsiility for their actions and actually take that walk or boil that spud, instead of lounging on the couch in front of the TV.

# 55

Posted: 28/09/2010 15:03

James, as I've said before many times, unless you or I know all the people you refer to as lazy, then it is impossible, logically, to know tha ttheyt are in fact lazy and indulging in judgementalism will do far more harm than good. Granted, it would seem that  some do not go out and and get the information needed but it is not enough to state this and declare the job, done. If you really want to help, you must ask why. Without getting to the root cause, we can never tackkle the issue. Nothing to do with political correctness. The next question of course is what to do about it. I agree of course that education on healthy eating and exercise is most important and that is where schools have a major role to play. Suggestions such as a 20 min walk each day after dinner, in conjunction with some healthy substitutions in diet; walkign up stairs and boiling or bakig in stead of frying is exactly what we need and will do far more to help than perjorative labelling.

# 54

Posted: 23/09/2010 14:19

Anon, I think that I will take Lil’s advice and get off this roundabout. For some obscure reason you seem incapable of accepting that for some people, it is a case of laziness in not taking responsibility for their own health, not going out and getting the information and not taking responsibility to take action, get some exercise and eat healthy. To shy away from this truth is to bring political correctness to an extreme that is not helpful and is actually harmful. The next question of course is what to do about it. I think that there we do have some agreement and I think Lil’s suggestions are also helpful. People need to understand the very basic principle that at the core of the issue is a balance between calorie intake and exercise (while acknowledging there is a percentage of cases where the issue is medical or mental). Again for political correctness a lot of people want to shy away from this core fundamental. Once that core principal is acknowledged, then the way forward is education on healthy eating habits and exercise. This does not have to be grandiose; a 20 min walk each day after dinner, in conjunction with some healthy substitutions in diet would work wonders in a short number of months. This is all bringing the horse to water; the individual human being must then take responsibility for their own health and actually take action. They must decide to walk up that couple of flights of stairs, or boil those spuds instead of frying the chips. Every individual must take responsibility for themselves.

# 53

Posted: 22/09/2010 16:33

Are you deliberately choosing to miss my point James? I am perfectly aware than you do not know every obese person in the world. I am, as I have previously said, referring only to all the obese or overweight people YOU claim are lazy and "simply choose to sit on the couch eating rubbish" - do you know all of these people you make such claims about? Becuase unless you do, you cannot claim to know they are lazy or actually choose to "sit on the couch eating rubbish" and even if you do know all the people whom you specifically make such cliams about, then the point is to get to the underlying root cause as to why - and not simply write it off as laziness,  oversimplify and call the job done. That does not help people.Lil, my points do in fact relate if you read them. But thank you for making valid contribtions which actulaly help. The point about supermarkets getting involved and making it finanacially viable for familes is a very salient one. The community care nurse could provide a very helpful role too.

# 52

Posted: 22/09/2010 14:09

Could JamesH and Anonymous please close this tedious debate which no longer relates to the topic under discussion. The way forward is through the implementation of healthy eating programmes for children and adults and compliance of the likes of supermarkets in promoting healthy eating that is cost effective for families who may be financially challenged. The use of the community nurse/care services in helping new parents develop and continue best health/eating advice for their children could be a cost effective way for the HSE in reducing the financial burden that obesity related illnesses has placed (and will continue to do so) on health services. I am not advocating policing of homes to ensure that all parents are complying with healthy eating practice but I would be in favour of parents who allow their children become obese through feeding them junk food and not encouraging a healthy lifestyle to be challenged as behaving negligently toward their children. After all if a child who is malnourished through lack of food is taken into care due to negligence then surely the same law must apply to a child whose health is being compromised by unhealthy eating causing obesity.

# 51

Posted: 21/09/2010 23:13

Anon How many times must I say that I obviously do not know every overweight person in the world? You don’t have to presume at all that I don’t know them all, because I have said numerous time that I don’t know them all. Please get over your ludricous obsession with whether or not I know ALL the overweight people in the world.

Now can you answer my question with a simple YES or NO. Are you denying that there are significant amounts of overweight people, who simply choose to sit on the couch eating rubbish rather than go for a walk or make a decent healthy meal.

# 50

Posted: 21/09/2010 14:02

James, I have already asked you if you personally know all these people you claim are lazy - you have not answered but I can presume you don;t.

But you continue to refuse to see my point.

Aas I have said beforel, whether they actually choose to "sit on the couch eating rubbish" or not I cannot know wthout knowing them but even with the massive assumption that you know them all and theyt actually do make that choice then the point is to get to the underlying root cause as to why - and not simply write it off as laziness, throw perjorative terms, oversimplify and call the job done. That does not help people.

# 49

Posted: 21/09/2010 11:29

Anon, answer me one thing. Are you denying that there are significant amounts of overweight people, who simply choose to sit on the couch eating rubbish rather than go for a walk or make a decent healthy meal. Yes or No will suffice.

# 48

Posted: 21/09/2010 09:54

Again James, unless you know, personally, all of the people to whom youn are referring to as lazy, then you cannot possibly know whether they are or not.

I am not "absolving" anyone. I am not in the business of absolving anyone of anything however, I do know that help and encouragement will do far more than judgementalism.  

I missed that program (I may have been gone out for a walk at the time) but prhaps you could share some of its insights.

# 47

Posted: 20/09/2010 14:02

Anon, Please stop putting words in my mouth. I have never once said that �ALL� people who sit on the couch eating rubbish are lazy. I have a number of times said that obviously I don�t know �ALL� these people. However it is a self-evident fact that for significant numbers of these people (not all) it is down to laziness. You are absolving them of their responsibility to look after their health. You are absolving them of taking the responsibility to make the choice to get up of the couch and go for a walk. You are absolving them of taking the responsibility to make a decent healthy meal instead of eating rubbish. If the truth is pejorative than I am being pejorative. There is a new Jamie Oliver in America programme in C4 tonight; it is worth a look to see how some people eat and how they look on food and how they refuse to acknowledge that there is a problem with their diet and where it can lead.

# 46

Posted: 20/09/2010 11:55

And as I have said before James, unless you know all of these people personally, their circumstanceas and their lives, you cannot logically know that it is simply laziness and that is the sort of over-simplification and refusal to look past the surface issues, which does a disservice to obese people and it IS perjorative, whether you like it or not, which of course does far more to push people away than help them - which only compunds the problem.

# 45

Posted: 17/09/2010 15:11

Anon, In my last message 43, I described how you are enabling overweight people to continue abusing their body. You want to know why people choose to sit on the couch eating rubbish. Anon unless you live in some utopia, it should be obvious that the answer to that question for a significant portion is simply laziness. That is not being “pejorative”, unless stating a simple blunt fact is considered “pejorative”. Sometimes the truth hurts, but it still remains the truth and in order to face a problem you must face the truth.

# 44

Posted: 17/09/2010 14:20

I am not sure how you would define the term 'enable'. Accepting factors is of little or no use unless you are willing to try to figure out the underlying cause (wthout oversimplifying) and actually help people without throwing aroudn perjorative terms.

Things like DO people actually conciously choose to "sit on the couch and eat rubbish" and if you know for a fact that they do, then why?

Do you really think attitudes which use perjorative judgemental terms really help obese people?

# 43

Posted: 16/09/2010 17:19

Anon, Obviously I agree 100% that laziness and irresponsibility are not the cause for 100% of the overweight people. I have never once indicated that I thought this. Where would you get such a ludricious idea? Thank you for finally accepting that there are people (I would contend significant numbers) who make poor choices and do not take responsibility for their health. This is in fact the first time while we have been debating this issue that you have openly accepted this. You want to know when you have enabled people to be overweight. You enable people to be overweight when you imply that being overweight is not your fault; when you imply that it was not a question of people choosing to sit on the couch and eat rubbish; when you imply it is beyond their control: when you refuse to point out that they have a responsibility to make the healthy choices. These are all atitudes that let the overweight person think that their actions are ok, and that enables them to carry on abusing their body.

# 42

Posted: 16/09/2010 15:43

Yes, I accept that some people do not make healthy choices - I have always accepted this but I do not accept that you or anyone else knows with absoute certainty the reason for this in 100% of cases. Not logically possible. James, where exactly have I enabled anyone or said anything is ok. What I have done is refuse to engage in perjorative remarks which help no-one and hinder many.

# 41

Posted: 16/09/2010 14:16

I've seen people giving young kids (about 4 or 5 years old) those big 500ml cans of monster energy drink! Some parents have no cop on at all. I feel sorry for the kids. Parents have a lot to answer for, there's no reason your child should be over weight, you control their food intake.

# 40

Posted: 16/09/2010 11:58

Anon, I have many times accepted that some people have medical or mental issues. It is not new for me to accept this; just look back at all my posts on this issue. It would be a pleasant change if you could accept the blatant truth that for many people it is merely not taking responsibility for their own health and not making the healthy choices. Instead you seem content to enable them to and say it is ok for them not to take responsibility. We are going around in circles at this stage, I have accepted your points re medical mental issue, but you are unable to accept my point that for many people it is laziness and irresponsibility. I think we can say that the debate between the two of us in concluded.

# 39

Posted: 16/09/2010 10:01

Obesity in children is a problem which becomes bigger. I completely agree with James. The food and exercise habits come from the family. If the parents spend their time in front of the telly or computer eating fast food in enormous quantities, that's what the child will do. And obesity is a problem. It stops children from enjoying activities, playing games, makes socialising a lot harder. They sit at home eating, watching tv and playing computer games because they are scared to go outside and play with other children.

Although it is not easy to break the circle and change, it is still possible. The solution is for parents to change their lives and the lives of their children by introducing healthy diet, active lifestyle and actually enjoying the life.

And the justification of not having time doesn't work really. We all work and have people to care for and relationships. If you want to find time, you will. It's not the impossibility, it's unwillingness.

Good luck and best wishes to those who decided to change their life and become happier, more confident and successful!