How would you sum up Mary Harney's performance as Health Minister?

# 86

Posted: 04/07/2007 08:05

Agnes

I am not arguing the fact that an insurance company can refuse cover. I have never denied that.

What I am condoning is that in that particular case that a person should recieve legal advice as to their rights and options. I know i have done so in the past some times to my benefit some times not.

I dont trust insurace companies either. I have seen them deny or refuse and once confronted with a letter from a solicitor the situation has completely changed. Too many people just accept what they are told and dont challange it, most companies know this (not just in the insurance industry) and if it suits them will just play hardball. When someone does not accept it they will normally give in fairly easily.

I accept that not every case is like this but I personally would allways get advice before accpeting a decision I did not agree with.

In this case Lennie has already done so.

# 85

Posted: 02/07/2007 14:23

Interesting that the state of the art private hospital purpose built in the west of Ireland is not making a profit!
Where does that leave Ms Harney's proposals?

By the way, Knipex, if you suggest going to a solicitor and/or going down the court route regarding insurance, you are just wasting your money (and you need plenty of money in the first place to do that).
Having had a terrrible situation where my hubby could not get insurance for a 'perceived condition' which he still does not know anything about, I can tell you that you are completely wrong in your assumptions regarding insurance companies.
They are not there to insure you if you have any problem AT ALL.
Lennie, I fully sympathise with your predictament. Having tried my best to deal with the insurance companies regarding my own husband, I can tell you, you will get nowhere with them.
I agree totally with Pixie on this.
Knipex, I can only say, I too, was as naive as you UNTIL life got in the way, and realism took over!

# 84

Posted: 02/07/2007 00:41

Triad has several smaller companies who take care of the tendering process. They have all been given Irish private hospitals to run. To deal with your point on my insurance, I had top class insurance before I got ill, they ran a mile and I sued them. Took four years of slogging back and forth to courthouse. Eventually I got costs and my premium payments returned to me. Spent two years trying to find an Insurer to cover me but no luck as they think I am too much of a risk. One said that they would no problem so long as I got a hysterectomy in order to make sure I have no more kids (my cancer is triggered by pregnancy) Another company refused me on account of having a brain tumour removed put me at high risk of stroke, and one said ok so long as I could pay €5,000 per year for basic cover! All my consultants tell me that I have a normal survival rate of any healthy person, and they are the best in the business and have written numerous letters to insurance companies on my behalf regarding my health status. Took it up with the Ombudsman who is at present looking into my case. I have enough legal knowledge to fight my corner Knipex and enough education to look at our health system from all sides and from what I see, public healthcare is going to be phased out in favour of private healthcare, no politician wants the headache of running public healthcare and when it goes private they will have little or no imput as to how the system is run. All subscribing patients in the private system will be at the mercy of corporations who just care about profit and little else.

# 83

Posted: 28/06/2007 16:33

Not quite true Lennie. A company that Triad had dealings with were charged and had to pay a big sum but Triad itself has not been charged.

# 82

Posted: 28/06/2007 10:20

Pixie

I am sorry but aproid rantings are not an argument.

I did not challange Lennie to "take on" the insurance companies. I advised him to take legal advice as to his situation. If the legal advice is in his favour and he has a case then I would advise that he contact his insurance company and male them aware of the advice he has received. If nothing happens then there is an ombudsman and also the court system whcih despite your misgivings I still believe in.

I have and many dealings with insurance companies and indeed I have read the small print. Normally i do so BEFORE I sign any agreement and If I am not happy with a clause I say so and it is either changed or I find an alternative insurer. I have had reason to make a number of claims on my insurance and never had a problem.

And while we are not anywhere near our US cousins we are a litigant society.

As for your comments about public patients being treated in private hospitals. It happens every single day. Its called the TPF.

Lennie I am sorry (and dissapointed) about your inability to get insurance and am glad you did check out you entitlements.

Regarding the article in the Evening hearld. As I am not based in Dublin I do not have the oppertunity to read that particular paper very often but when I have read it I was not very impressed.

My understanding (which may be wrong) is that each private hospital is being tendered seperately and will be run independantly so I cannot see how one company will run them all.

# 81

Posted: 27/06/2007 22:44

Knipex, did you read the article in Tuesday night's Herald regarding the company hired from America to operate our upcoming co located private hospitals. They already do the Beacon Clinic? Triad are being investigated in the US for fraud, overcharging private insurance patients, and bribing doctors to do unnecessary treatments in order to suck more cash from insurance companies, which costs ultimately hit the patient? Do we really need this? Know the legal system inside out by the way, negligent doctors at the start of my illness forced me into office work and got an excellent job in Legal. Fine print is like ABC to me. And know exactly what my situation is. Just got cover for my kids, I'm disqualified.

# 80

Posted: 27/06/2007 19:59

Knipex, you seem to be very naive. I don't say that as a criticism but to suggest to Lennie that he 'take on' the insurance company is quite frankly a laugh.
You pay insurance on everything, even on your insurance but when you need to make a claim the small print ensures that you don't qualify for that claim. Thats how it works. It's just another business.
They say we are a litigant society but in fact, far from it, we are an insurance driven society.
Most of the insurance payments we make are tantamount to throwing your money down the nearest drain.

If anyone thinks that for a minute, the public patient will be treated right if private facilities are 'on site' then they are living in cloud cuckoo land.
Money is what drives the big boys and therefore money has to be taken out of the equation ensuring that patients are treated according to priority and not according to whether they have health insurance or not.
I agree totally with Advance. The joke is on us. Who do you think advises Mary Harney? The management in the HSE does and yet these are the very people that are inept, highly overpaid and totally unaccountable to anyone.
There is far too many of them, doing nothing or mis spending our money or indeed spending it on all the wrong areas.
Nothing will change in the Health Service until some of these 'guys' are gotten rid of and WITHOUT a handshake either.

# 79

Posted: 27/06/2007 10:19

For years the Public system screamed for money for services and it was given in the past ten years only to management, who did not know how to spend it. Two years ago 10000 euro was given for a job in December that would normally cost 1000 but the money had to be spent before the end of the year, whereas a doctor or nurse on the ward who needed a piece of equipment or extra pillows would have to fill out lengthy forms and it had to go through six layers of bureaucracy before a decision was made and then those same bureaucrats ad to tender for the product and it all had to go through 'due process' and two years later the equipment might be purchased. Mary Harney is not taking on the poor management and is afraid because of the strength of the union looking after the bureaucracy. That's where she needed to start but did not. The public would be more impressed with her taking on the doctors and nurses. Just wait for about three years and you will then discover the real cost of the NTPS and the co-located hospitals but alas - it will then be too late and you will pay up big time.

# 78

Posted: 25/06/2007 16:48

Lennie

Have you received legal advice regarding your insurace coverage?

Mary Harney is the first Minister of health to try and tackle the bureaucratic nightmare that is the HSE (I have some first hand experience with this). I think she is going in the right direction and 2.5 years is not enough time to judge the woman on her results.
I wish people would study the co location idea and look at the pro's and con's not just the ideology.
The current public system is a nightmare and will take years to fix. Looking at the private sector to provide temporary support (such as the TPS) is the only short term (and probably medium term) solution and will not result in public patients getting worse care. It cannot result in public patients getting worse care as I do not believe that is possible.
For years the public sector screamed that money would resolve the issues with health. Well guess what they got money, their budgets were over doubled and things didnt get better. Throwing money into a bottomless pit is not a solution you need to address the root cause of the problem and she seems to be trying to do that. Give the woman time.
Nurses pay is not an issue. Irish nurses are among the best paid in Europe, They also have some of the best conditions. In some threads they are complaining about the amount of overtime they work but if you read the thread on the nurses strike you would swear that no nurses work overtime or unsociable hours (which they get paid for).

# 77

Posted: 23/06/2007 17:05

I have travelled the world too, spent lots of time in the company of Michael Moore types and seen the health systems there, their governments and legal systems. Have also faced life threatening illness which has given me access to medical staff and their daily lives and opinions on their view of the health system. Experience of being a patient in several Irish hospitals and seeing docs and consultants forced by miniterial constraints and bad administration eating holes in budgets to do "McGuyver" jobs in order to try their very best for their patients and some who spend their days wishing for the golden job in private care and couldn't give a stuff for public patients has given me more than just "book" learning. I have on the floor experience. Another task for you is to check out how the wording on insurance application forms has changed in the past few years. It is harder to qualify now, especially if you have suffered major illness in your past, even if you are completely cured. I earn a tidy sum of money and no Insurance company will touch me with a barge pole and my previous Insurance company refused me cover when I got ill because they didn't cover my "type" of cancer. If it wasn't for public health care I would not be here today along with thousands of other people I have met in Ireland who suffered similar woes with our Insurance companies. Tell me it is alright Knipex, Tell me that one day everyone will get fair treatement. Wake up!!

# 76

Posted: 22/06/2007 19:32

Knipex, Firstly I didn't read up on the history of the PD's, I lived through it. What was the point in the PD's setting up in the first place when they are now in bed with FF? Even without that, I see them as a smaller branch of the same party.

Rachel, Good for you in your area but ours has gotten worse since Mary H. came into Health.
We never had anyone on trolleys before that, but now we do.
We have to wait for up to 3 months for a hospital appt. regardless of the symptoms.
Then when you do get seen they cannot find out what is wrong with you and rather than refer you to someone who might be able to help they discharge you, and tell you to go back to your G.P. for another referral to a different Cons.
(Cons. is a great abbreviation for CONSultants because unless you pay through the nose, you won't see one!).
If it wasn't for my luck in meeting some wise nurses I would be in total despair.
The CONS get paid TOO much and the nurses don't get paid enough as far as I'm concerned.
No wonder the nurses need a payrise because they see themselves that when they are ill they have to pay for private treatment because the public system is non existent.

# 75

Posted: 22/06/2007 13:44

I think that Mary Harney is an admirable woman, she is constantly on an uphill struggle trying to deal with the mess that is the Health Service in this country only to be met by brick walls and people who are terrified of change. People who at every opportunity have tried to bully Mary Harney into changing what she believes is the best for the Health Service as a whole.

Since she has taken over as Minister for Health I have experienced a huge decline in the A&E Waiting times from around 6 hours to roughly 2. This is a huge difference.

As for the bed situation, she is working to solve this issue as quickly as possible in a country whose population is increasing rapidly but it seems that any solutions she proposed is torn to shreds and pulled appart by someone and nothing she ever does will make everyone happy.

I think that regardless who has the role of Minister for Health they will meet the same attitude from the same people as Mary Harney and they will be hard pressed to find a solution to any issues with the health service.

# 74

Posted: 22/06/2007 11:55

Lennie

I have met and spoken Michael Moore. I have visited Flint, I have visited Detroit, I have read his books, I have actually done my own research on the subjects he writes about. I have also an idea of the amount of money he has made from his books and films.

My opions on the man are based on all these things, I didnt just pluck them out of fresh air.

As for Mary Harney. I have watched what she has done since entering the Dail. I have seen her as a face of integrity, I also read history and know why she left FF to join the PD's. I have studied the history of the PD's and her role in the party.

Who Mary Harney is married to makes no difference to anything I have ever learnt about her and spreading inuendo is not an argument. It does not even belong in an adult discussion and does nothing to advance any opinion.

# 73

Posted: 22/06/2007 10:24

Knipex. Do some research on the background of Michael Moore before you make comments like that. You obviously need to do this. I know exactly what Mary Harney is up to as I also have a very good educational knowledge of our governmental history. Also Mary Harney is married, and go check out what her husband does for a living, have a think about it and get back to me.

# 72

Posted: 21/06/2007 20:08

How??

I gave a figure for the cost of the TPF. I commented that I thought it was good value for money. I was called silly and now you call me ignorant of the facts.

You have yet to make an argument. Make one and I will argue it with you. Pass on line insults and I will ignore you.

# 71

Posted: 21/06/2007 17:06

knipex, there is no logic to your arguments and once again you appear to be ignorant of the facts.

# 70

Posted: 21/06/2007 09:28

Lennie

When you use a so called serious documentary maker who has been proven to be completely biased self serving and prone to ignoring points and arguments that disagree with his point of view it does nothign to help your argument.

John Williams.

How is it a silly comparison.

It demonstrates value for money. Im my book value for money is not silly.

# 69

Posted: 20/06/2007 19:19

You all need to have a good look at Michael Moore's new film "Sicko" when it hits our screens. Check out what private health care did to the Americans then come back and tell me that it is a good thing. Also please be reminded that Mary Harney is attempting to scale down public treatment and get us all just like the beleagured Americans. Our public health system is failing because she wants it to, not because she is not up to the job. There she was the other week smiling into the camera and gushing about the new state of the art cancer facility, it's the best in Europe absolutely world class, ahead of its time.. it's also a private facility and thousands of cancer patients will never get a chance to use it unless they want the token free breast check or have tons of insurance at their disposal. Thousands don't because it is too expensive or they have been refused due to previous health difficulties. Be also aware that we pay tax in this country specifically designed to go towards subsidised or free health care in this country and it should be put where it rightly belongs!

# 68

Posted: 20/06/2007 19:05

Knipex. What a silly comparison.

# 67

Posted: 20/06/2007 14:14

Appalling. Pure and simple. I have seen no improvements of any kind in the last five years.

# 66

Posted: 11/06/2007 10:25

Johnwilliams

The price of individual treatments is confidenttial.

The budget for the NTPF is not. 90million in 5 years reduced the waiting lists form years to months.

Ovethe same period billions ( need to double check the figure again but I think its 40 billion) have been spent on the HSE.

Which is better value for money ???

# 65

Posted: 08/06/2007 21:13

Furthermore the NTPF sends people outside the state for treatment so what is the cost of that?
A typical Irish solution for an Irish problem, pass it on to others rather than have the expertise and beds here to treat those very same patients.
I think its a scandal that someone who needs an operation for bunions can end up being treated in a top of the range private hospital outside the state and be paid for by the taxpayer when some of us cannot even get a damn x-ray for 12 weeks?!!!

# 64

Posted: 08/06/2007 18:48

Harney has been a disaster. Her objective is to provide money making opportunities for her friends and not provide a health service that all can access as need requires. Harney is creating a two tier system.

# 63

Posted: 31/05/2007 22:30

Knipex. Where did you get the information that procedures on the NTPS are cheaper than in the public service? The fees paid for NTPS treatment are not published for 'commercial' reasons. Many of us, knowing the present climate in the Dept of Health believe that the fees are not published because they are excessive. One other item: where will doctors, nurses, midwives, consultants, physiotherapists etc train if the private hospitals get the lion's share of medical procedues? No private hospital in Ireland , that I am aware of, is recognised as a teaching hospital. Why let a minor item like that get in the way of the money bags hovering like vultures over the sick people looking for treatment?

# 62

Posted: 31/05/2007 20:16

Perhaps you did not see the question mark after the 'public only contracts' but if there areno public only contracts then who is going to treat the public patients? How can you tell that the NTPS is cheaper? They will not release the cost of the various treatments under the the NTPS so we do not know what the real cost is. Mary Harney is the one with the ideology and when you are asked to pay more for your health services come back to me then and talk about logical.

# 61

Posted: 31/05/2007 09:16

Your argument is completely without basis.

There is no such thing as a private only contact. It has been proven by the NTPS that it is cheaper and faster to get patients treated in a private hospital.

People cry out for more public beds but when someone says "hey lets put the priave patients in private hospitlas and free up 20% of our public beds" people scream as well.

Your argument is based on ideology not logical argument.

# 60

Posted: 30/05/2007 17:29

Your argument does not make much sense but you have another mistake if you think that only 14billion has been spent in ten years. When the private patients leave the public system (which will not happen) who is supposed to treat the public patient? Public only contracts? The cream will be working in the private sector. The cost of having public patients treated in private facilities will be much greater than the current cost of having 20% private mix.

# 59

Posted: 30/05/2007 11:33

Advance

Sorry but I call Bull.

I did get my dates wrong on the intoduction of the NTPS.

However at a cost of 90 million since 2002 it has produced results and cut waiting lists.

In 10 years 14billion has been pumped into the public health sector if this thread is to be believed things are getting worse.

Currently 20% of all public beds are ring fenced for private patients. 20% of all public beds. What Harney wants to do is to take these public beds and make them available to public patients by moving the private patients out.

As for subsidising private patients. The cost of subsiding a private patient is much lower than paying for them as a public patient. The private patient pays the smae taxes and PRSI (probably more as they are supposed to be the higher paid wealthier people in Irish society) so are they not entitled to something back. What they get back is less that what a public patient would get.

# 58

Posted: 30/05/2007 10:54

Ann - 12 weeks for an xray? That's a very long time.

When my doc sent me for the cholesterol test he also sent me for an ECG and chest xray in the mater (I posted an anon post which you responded to, thanks). I went the following day at 8.30AM (no appt) and handed in the referral note, chest x ray was done in 15 minutes. I then went to the ECG dept and similar story, handed in referral letter waited for 5 minutes no queue and was again out in 15 minutes. I'd expected a long day of waiting but was out by 9.30AM.

Last year after I dislocated my shoulder I went to A&E, again it was morning time approx 8AM (I'd sat in a lot of pain for 12 hours as thought the shoulder was just sore). I was seen in record time, x rays done, sedated, shoulder popped back into socket and out by 12.

I can understand peoples frustration at being told to wait for 12 weeks for something as routine as an x ray but my own experience of hospitals and the health service has been a good one.

# 57

Posted: 29/05/2007 19:47

Actually the health service was not as bad before she took over. Granted it has been going downhill for a while but is most definitely worse now than it was even 2 years ago.
I have been treated up to that without any delays but now, just for a routine x-ray in my area now, the wait is a minimum of 12 weeks regardless of what is wrong with you.

# 56

Posted: 27/05/2007 22:20

Knipex - it is obvious your knowledge is deficient and so are your arguments. However now that Bertie is taking Mary on board again to continue her demolishing of the Public system and he will hide behind her knowing that we will all blame her is a cute move. It will be interesting to hear the comments from some of you when you realise that your taxes will have to go up to pay for the treatment of public patients in private facilities and through schemes like the NTPS. Then again these taxes will be gathered by stealth, where people cannot recognise charges as opposed to taxes, and the general gullible public will just pay up and complain from the bar stool.

# 55

Posted: 27/05/2007 18:05

Moderate success. Has not really taken on consultants as she implies, and has lost her way.
Siting Private & Public will not work, and the location of the children's hospital is a joke. Ask anyone trying to access this location from the west.

# 54

Posted: 26/05/2007 23:23

Anonymous Posted: 25/05/2007 17:19

the only good thing Micheal Martin did was ban smoking in pubic place (speaking as a smoker). Mary Harney is not Gandolf, she cannot wave a magic wand to fix the health service. The health serivece was in shit before she took over and these sort of things take time. She has my full support anyway.

Obviously people have confinence in her else she wouldn't havfe been voted back in.

# 53

Posted: 26/05/2007 20:04

still the same . no change in comment. bertie back again.i have to say he hung in there.the coming weeks will tell the tale. let them get on with runn..the country now.. the circus is over now/

# 52

Posted: 26/05/2007 08:25

Anon of 25.05.07. I agree with everything you wrote. Unfortunately many of the public are unaware of the details. They just listen to the sound bytes of spin.

# 51

Posted: 25/05/2007 17:19

Mary Harney will be remembered for years by the thousands of doctors and nurses, whom she has demonized, as a tyrannical propagandist, who spent millions on PR, "spin", "propaganda" and created a nightmarish chaos of distrust and conflict . Her hastily imposed and ill-conceived “reforms” (i.e. untested political stunts) will set the health service back even further than Ray (Mac the Knife) McSharry’s bed cuts and “belt-tightening” of the late 1980’s, from which the service was only beginning to recover over the past 5 years.

As a healthcare worker, I can confidently contradict those who suggest that Minister Martin did little for the health service. In fact, his self-effacing and understated approach was precisely the sort which is so desperately needed: he understood that a “horticultural” method is essential when it comes to human health. It takes years for the seeds of a good idea, invention or innovation to bear fruit. It takes years of patient nurturing, a few good years’ “weather” and dedication to see the kind of precious harvest which we will see in the coming decades with the Smoking Ban, the National Treatment Purchase Fund and the long-term planning which Micheal Martin introduced, and for which Madam Harney is so quick to seek the credit.

The dedication, compassion and trust that remain vital to the well-being of the people of this century, and which they so fully deserve, have never been so belittled and devalued as they have been by this minister and her wretched, high-flying “special advisers”. And the chronic shortage of beds and staff has paled into insignificance compared with the yawning deficit in truth, honesty and decency on the part of the small cabal who have seized control of the nation’s health care.

What we desperately needed from Mary Harney was real leadership;
what we got was the toxic fury of a woman scorned by history.

# 50

Posted: 25/05/2007 12:10

Knipex,
Mary Harney did not introduce the National Treatment Purchase Fund.
That was brought in in 2002 and she did not become Minister for Health until 2004.

# 49

Posted: 25/05/2007 08:53

I believe Mary Harney could have done better in health job in health if she had tried to get all the health workers to work together and not be running down the nurses and doctors.She could have been more patient friendly and reduce non- medical staff and enploy more doctors and nurses and also demand cleaner hospital and more friendly to patient attending hospital outpatients.Until the goverment bring back more beds in hospitals the health system will fail.

# 48

Posted: 24/05/2007 22:12

Hated her reign in politics, still do, everything she worked on in various departments turned into a spectacular mess. Firstly she destroyed the employment sector with her sham handouts and tax breaks to foreign companies then she brought the health system to its knees with her writing blank cheques to management consultant agencies. €1 million to a guy whose job was to check if beds were in the right positon in a ward! Ludicrous!!

# 47

Posted: 19/05/2007 18:20

What ever else she did remember she introduced the treatment purchace scheme.

90 million to the private sector reduced public waiting lists from years to months. 100 billion to the public health service bought us nothing.

And then people complain about private hospitals.