Women who flirt 'blamed' for rape
I think it is very important that we need some way of seeing a child in trouble. None of us seem to be able to cop it. I know there is an awful lot of secrecy and shame for the victim and I know in my case I managed to carry on being abused without anyone's knowledge. However when I was waiting for my abuser to come in his car at night - I wished with all my mind that someone would see what was going on. I even hoped that the guards would pick me up for soliciting. When I was in the car I remember so well looking constantly towards the window praying that someone would rescue me and I could never understand why God didn't come. How many children are in this position today? Surely a young girl standing in a doorway at night for an hour and then seen to be getting into a car should be spotted. Or a girl coming out of a building and going around the back of it crying her eyes out should be spotted. Or a girl who has stayed the night under a tree should also be spotted. All this happened to me and I was in an orgaisation that regularly did patrols yet no-one seemed to be around when I needed them. I think as a society it is imperative that we become aware of things like this happening.
I believe in all that is seen and unseen.
the justice in this country is shite, a woman raped, a teenager raped, a child abused, there absusers get away with it, any am who rapes a woman , child or a person abuses a child should be locked up, no trial, no justise, no jury.
Hi NME see my post from 2 years ago - I thought the same! I am not sure if anyone ever has, imagine it would be a landmark case if they did. And I certainly think its time someone did. Remember what happened to little Sarah Payne in Sussex? She was abducted an killed by Roy Whiting who had served only two years of a five year sentence for the abduction and rape of another 8 year old girl. How can the state justify letting a monster like this out to attack again? Her parents disn't sue the state but they campaigned for the introduction of "Sarah's Law" which would inform parents and schools if there was a registered sex offender in the area. As far as I know, its still on a trial basis in some areas of the UK.
Has anyone ever sued the Minister for Justice having been a victim of someone who has been released before the end of sentence for whatever reason OR out on bail?
Live and let live
I agree with you. I never pressed any charges against my offenders for personal reasons, however I do know quite a lot of people who have been raped/abused, who went to the guards or the courts and did not get justice. This is a disgrace. also repeat offenders who were let out on 'good behaviour'-they already behaved so badly that they ruined some child/womans/mans life so badly that they will never forget it. how can they say their pleases and thank yous in prison and the government says 'oh ok then, off you go' and lets them loose on society again??! Crazy. There should be a group developed to support the victims of repeat offenders and those who did not get justice and I do believe it should be brought to a European, not Irish, commitee of some sort who can sort this out. It is a disgusting, life destroying crime and the Irish government have NOTHING to say on it. They would rather spend money on building roads than a centre for victims of sexual assault.
I am sorry if you feel what you said was 'twisted', but looking back at the reaction to your message, it seems Buzz and Anonymous also took offence.
This is why I was upset by your comments:
Firstly you said 'not all rapes are committed by sexual deviants'. It doesn't matter what their job is, be they a priest, a teacher or a charity worker - if somebody is a rapist they most certainly are a sexual deviant. However by saying not all rapists are sexual deviants this implies that some are actually good people - they're not.
You said: "If certain women dress and act like hookers is it any wonder then that men treat them as such". This was your own comment, not one made by a man.
When commenting on what your friend said about a girl not wearing any knickers, you said 'What kind of signal is this sending out to men.' Again, your own comment, not somebody else's.
If you feel your message was 'twisted' then you need to be a bit more careful about your phrasing, because despite your later posts, your original comment comes across very badly and very insulting. You may think I'm over-reacting or as you told Anonymous 'getting on your high horse' but remember you are speaking to people who have ourselves been raped. By all means say what you feel, but please be more careful about how you say it if you think you were misunderstood.
As a survivor, I agree that men who prey on women (and children, as I was preyed on) ARE sick BUT we need to be very careful with this school of thought people. If we believe that these men (and lets not forget some women too!) are sick, then there will always be bleeding hearts who jump on the band wagon and insist of rehabilitation more than punishment. I do not believe that ANYONE who commits a sex crime should ever be trusted again, and no amount of "rehabilittion" will help them but inevitably, these people will be deemed fit for society under pressure from the "holy Marys" and will be released into society to do more damage to more women or children.
I have long maintained that a group should be set up by people who have been victims of attack by those who have not served their full sentence or who are out on bail. They should take our justice system to the European high court and hold it responsible. If these sick people were kept where they should be (in prison) and were not out on bail or out for good behaviour, then a lot of these attacks by repeat offenders could have been avoided.
NO that is NOT what i said and if you re-read what i said, it doesn't even say that. And i find it insulting that it was taken totally out of context and twisted around.
you have taken what i said out of context. To make it CLEAR. It indicates a lack of respect by certain types of men in society towards some women. i reiterated the comments made by men who, whether it's classed as right or wrong, have a lack of respect for certain types of women given the way they dress provacatively lose their inhibitions through excessive alcohol consumption and use their sexuality to play games with men. Which is why i said there are many different forms of rape. due to differing social structures and up-bringing. And OBVIOUSLY this doesn't imply that on account of this rape can be excused.That would be a stupid assumption to make.
Rape is never justified. Or excusable under any grounds.
And yes there are so called 'respected' members of society that are involved and have been involved for centuries in activities that we would view as abhorrant, deviant, base and sickening.
Dont get on your high horse and attack me over my comments. I NEVER MENTIONED rape being justified in any way shape or form. The comment i posted was what a man had stated. A man's OPINION on what they see as a social problem where men have stated that they see women dressed like hookers. a MANS not mine. that they in turn have NO RESPECT FOR SOME WOMEN. A Man's opinion, not mine.
What, you think men are so poorly socialised, badly brought up and regressively evolved that they somehow have not achieved a basic control over themselves??
Yes actually there are men out there in society who are exactly like that. They have no respect for women and treat them as sex objects. there are probably more rapes happen than get reported. i didn't say this gives them the right to rape anyone. Also not forgetting there are incidences of male rape also.
Does that mean some people who rape are actually well-to-do members of society? You have no idea how insulting that is.
Yes actually there are. and there are many true life stories that show this, because they have the power to get away with it.
at one time Priests were classed as respected. And it has been proven that there have been many high ranking police officials politicians and lawyers involved in sex scandals and sex assualts on children.
You may not acknowledge that there is a dark side in sociey but that doesn't mean it's not still there.
I DID NOT SAY RAPE IN ANY WAY IS ACCEPTABLE.
Unfortunately, the high levels of testosterone in males can result in testosterone-related crimes involving sex and violence among men who do not choose to control themselves. Unfortunately, this means that women can be vulnerable to abuse by men who are strangers as well as men they know and trust. Some men who commit such crimes are mentally ill men who need mental health treatment; however, many men who commit such crimes are non-mentally ill men who have not made the moral decision to control their animal impulses. These men are responding to their most basic physical level impulses and, therefore, it makes sense provide a very basic physical level punishment that works on the biological programming of all mammals to avoid pain. Many people are too quick to see lashing as uncivilized but it could be seen as something that promotes civilized conduct in men in the same way that even potentially dangerous circus lions behave in order to avoid the sting of the liontamer's whip.
Whipping can also be seen to be fitting punishment for serious crimes against women in that a man being whipped is stripped down, made to endure both physical and emotional distress, and is helpless to resist. Whipping also helps to even out the physical power imbalances between the genders in that a man who attacks a woman will know that he can end up badly physically hurt, just as if he attacked a man. Men use their physically stronger bodies to abuse women so why not take advantage of the fact that the male body strength makes men particularly physically well suited to endure the rigours of whipping? Is society really doing all it can do to protect women if society is not prepared to give some consideration to bringing back some form of whipping --whether it be a leather strap or rattan cane applied to the buttocks or a cat-o-nine tails applied to the back? (And to answer a previously asked question about some men enjoying such punishment, I would point out that legally applied corporal punishment is always too painful to be enjoyed by anyone who receives it.)
thank you for the support guys. being a SURVIVOR of rape not a victim it is comforting to know that other people out there understand that rape is a power crime not an urge by some man who cannot control the fact that he wants to...you know with a woman. I personally think that the men who commit these crimes do so because they cannot help the mental order to control a woman.
and as a survivor I think that it is also fair to say that it should be taken into account that MEN are not the enemy here, it is men who have an illness which leads to this behavior. It may be hard for people who have relatives or friends who have been subject to this awful, awful crime to understand that the people who commit these crimes are more than likely ill themselves. And i respect that, but I do think that it is important to realise that unless we as a society acknowledge the fact that mental illnesses are not dealt with accordingly in this country, then we can never expect a change. A girl I know who suffers from a mental illness was placed in an institution/hospital ward (they do not deserve the recognition of being an institution) where she was in a ward with a man who was a convicted rapist but who pleaded innocent due to insanity. She was subsequently followed into the "supervised" womens toilet by said man and assaulted. The main issue here is not that our society has rapists, but that they are completely, utterly not dealt with in a proactive, rehabilitative manner.
I have been recieving counselling for years because of my assaults, however I think that the overall message is that people like me need to be strong enough to encourage the funding etc for places like the Rape Crisis Network of Ireland. I could not have even contemplated living a normal life,or even living at all, had it not be for the counsellor that I see for free (HSE listen up) and I would love to do some sort of fund raising for these fabulous people.
Again, thank you for your support. Anybody that reads this and needs some sort of support I urge you to at least contact your local rape crisis centre. Honestly, they DO help.
Sammi, are you seriously saying that if a prostitute is raped then it doesn't count as rape? If they say no to a client or any man to that matter does that not count because they sell sex for a living? You say if someone acts and dresses like a hooker then it's not surprising they're treated like one. As Anonymous said, treating someone like a hooker means paying them for consensual sex, they have every right to turn someone down and not be raped.
Admittedly there are a lot of promiscuous, 'easy' girls out there. But they're 'easy' because they want to be, because they give consent to a high number of sexual partners. They have just as much of a right not to be raped as anyone else in this world, what they wear is immaterial.
And 'not all rapes are committed by sexual deviants'? What? Does that mean some people who rape are actually well-to-do members of society? You have no idea how insulting that is.
Sammi it doesnt matter what way women dress, that does not justify the act of rape. NOTHING does.
"Women dress and act like hookers-is it any wonder then that men treat them as such" - who do you think you are making such a denigrating comment? "Hookers" are paid for CONSENSUAL sex - so rape is not relevant here. Rape is NEVER NEVER justified. What, you think men are so poorly socialised, badly brought up and regressively evolved that they somehow have not achieved a basic control over themselves?? Would you cop yorself on. That attitiude insults men as much as women. It is well recognised that rape is about POWER. Bubbleboo has it right. It is a power crime and furthermore 50% of rape is done by someone KNOWN to the victim - not by a stranger ina dark alley, so underdeveloped that he is unable to control a basic urge which is the basis for socialisation.
there are different scenarios in a lot of rape cases and they need to be viewed differently. Not all rapes are committed by sexual deviants.
If certain women dress and act like hookers is it any wonder then that men treat them as such. Friend of mine told me he was out with his mates the other night and a young girl wearing a tiny skirt bent over and was wearing no knickers! What kind of signal is this sending out to men.
The only problem with that is that rape is not done because the men are turned on. It is not about sex, it is about control. Rapists usually commit these crimes because they feel out of control, for example in a relationship if a man is raping his girlfriend then it is probably because he is not comfortable with being equal with his partner and abusing her allows him to feel in control.
I think it is a disgusting crime. I think the rape crisis network do FANTASTIC work for a free service. It is not a womans fault if she appears sexy to a man, it is ridiculus to suggest that flirting is a bad thing to do. If men can do it and stay safe and in control of who touches them when, why can't we?!
Sounds like a great idea but unfortunately the pc brigade would have something to say about that, and also there are probably some sick perverts out there who would enjoy the punishment.
Women should not be blamed for rape if they flirt or wear revealling clothing. However, it should not be denied that flirtatious behaviour and revealling clothing do inspire sexual excitement in men, and some men (a small percentagbe of men) will feel impulses that they do not not chose to control. It is up to society to provide effective punishments that will increase the likelihood that morally weak men will chose to control themselves. I realize that it might sound harsh to some readers, but, as a male myself, I can see merit in bringing back some form of flogging, applied as humanely as possible, (in addition to time in prison) as a deterrent to sex crime for men. The effectivenss of caning in keeping rates of sex crime low in Singapore and Malaysia provides support for what I am saying. The thought of receiveing such strict discipline would help men to chose to control themselves in that the anticipated intense physical discomfort assoicated with lashing would be enough to outweigh the anticipated physical pleasure associated with the cirme Moreover, providing some form of caning, whipping, or strapping for non-mentally ill men who sexually abuse women would also give women the sense that justice was being done, send the message that sex crime will not be tolerated, and promote respect for women.
how is your daughter, i hope she is well
Unfortunately there can be a lot of prejudice as far as rape is concerned. I did explain further, but half my post wasn't posted unfortunately.
The problem with rape as far as the police and the courts are concerned is that in many cases it is simply a case of one person's word against another. In England a lot of evidence is needed for a case to even make it to court, let alone secure a conviction.
This is why I'd always advise victims and their families to think things through very carefully before reporting a rape. Going to court can be very traumatic and a victim must be ready to cope with all that this entails, including the very real possibility of not getting a conviction. Only the victim will know what is right for her/himself; some would hate themselves forever if they didn't report, others wouldn't be able to cope with a court case, no matter how good the chances of conviction were.
thats disgusting to think what that male officer made you go through. why didnt they give you a female officer,. males are all the same, they stick up for each other.
I agree with Sophie that she should maybe try to find another job. The thought of having to serve or even be near one of my attackers makes me feel physically sick, it must be tremendously hard for her. I know she obviously needs to earn a living, but it might be an idea for her to see if there's any other jobs going near by that are less likely to bring her into contact with him (a ladies clothes shop, for example)
I can understand that you want her to report this man, but I also very much understand why your daughter does not. Firstly and most importantly, she is simply not ready to make a report, with all that it involves. She clearly hasn't come to terms with the attack yet, and also still very much blames herself, both of which will make reporting the attack difficult if not impossible.
I hate to say it, but it often takes a very strong and seriously thick-skinned person to report a rape. I finally decided I wanted to report my ex around 3 years after the 'relationship' ended. I felt I was strong enough to deal with anything, even disbelief. I was wrong. The male officer I spoke to told me I had no case, no evidence, and patently didn't believe me (or had a twisted idea that he was giving me a rehearsal for court or something). He sat and watched me cry, tears and snot streaming down my face, in a glass room where members of the public could see me, without even offering a tissue. Humiliating to say the least.
This might sound extreme, but very often women will have to face disbelief and little or no sympathy before they even get to court. If the case does make it to court, the victim will then have to tell her story to strangers, face her conduct being questioned etc etc. It can be soul destroying and you need to be 100% sure you can cope with it mentally, otherwise the effects, especially if a conviction is not secured, can be devastating.
FLORENCE THANKS FOR THAT. YOUR DAUGHTER ATTUIDE HAS CHANGED BECAUSE OF WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO HER, SHE DOESNT MEAN THIS. SHE KNOES THAT YOU ARE ALL TRYING TO HELP, BUT ITS HARD, AS I HAVE SAI TO YOU ABOUT WHAT HAOPPENED TO ME, I WAS HIDING MY FEELING FOR SO LONG, I JUST CRIED OUT FOR HELP. AND YES I AM DOING OK, BUT IT WONT BRING BACK MY BABY, BUT NOT ONE DAY GOES BY THAT I DONT THINK OF THE BABY THAT WE LOST.PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING TO JUDGE YOUR DAUGHTER, AS I HAVE SAID GET HER FRIENDS TO HELP. PLEASE GOD SHE WILL DO THE RIGHT THING AND GO AND SEEK HELP GO TO THE POLICE AND HAVE HIM CHARGED. KISSEY
i have just read sophie mail, she is right , your daughter must get out of this job, to me he is a total B especially that he goes into the shop were she works, its like he is rubbing her noes in it all, and yes she should go and seek professional help. try and talk to her, or maybe her best friend will help you talk to her. so sorry again
sorry to read about what happened to your daughter. she should go to the gardai, not every rapist gets off free. and this girlfrined of his she should no better as to be going out with him as to what he has done to your daughter. i really feel for you, but yes she did right by going up to him and trying to slap him-it's her way of say you B for doing this to me/ this is not the same as what your daughter went through, but years ago i was coming home from a hen's party with my sister in law, and this man grabbed us both from behind, he robbed our bags, pull my sister in law to the ground, we screamed for help as we were on a few doors away from her father home, we got to the house and we called the guards, we couldn't find this man, but a few weeks later we found out that he was targeting woman and would jump on them,. i had found out that i was expecting and then with all the trauma i went through from being mugged i lost our child, i was devastated and my husband and some other went in search for this guy, he has since moved out of the area and never attacked another person again.
I really really feel your daughter needs to get out of that job as soon as she can. The fact that he still goes there knowing that she works there shows that he has no remorse over what he did to her. I realise it may not be financially possible for you to do this but perhaps you could suggest to her that you will give her a small allowance to keep her going until she finds another job? I can only imagine what it must be like for her seeing him all the time. It makes me sick to my stomach just thinking about what that must be like.
As for her lashing out on him, I can understand what she must be feeling. Rape makes you feel every negative emotion you can possibly think of and anger plays a huge part. But while slapping him may make her feel better at the time, she's still going to feel exactly how she did before. Has she said anything to you about talking to someone about this? It would be terrible if a scumbag like him made her into an angry person.
I know how she feels about not wanting to go to the Gardai. Unfortunately a lot of women don't get the justice they deserve in the courts. And while it would be great if she does eventually decide to report him, I think the most important thing right now is that she gets the help she needs.
I wish I had given counselling more of a chance as I feel it really helps people deal with their anger and self-hatred. Instead I can't even talk about it to those I love the most and while most of the time I'm OK, I still have low points. The people in this forum know far more about it than I will ever tell anyone in person! So I really do think the sooner she gets counselling the better. Try to gently bring up the possibility again and see how she reacts. If you're surprised at her actions at the night club I'm sure she is too and maybe she'll be more ready to talk to somebody professionally about what she's going through now.
Keep in touch Florance,
She has recently started going out to discos again and i was delighted that she made this break thanks to her friends,but i was shocked one night when she came home and told me what she had done,she was at the disco last w/e seen this guy there with his girl friend and walked up to him to give him a slap. her friends pulled her back,she said to me i dont know what came over me when i saw him i just wanted to hurt him.its not at all like her she was always a quiet natured girl never causes problems and helps others alot so it was completely out of context her behaviour that night,
Its hard trying to find all the answers if only i could convince her to go to the proper authorities and get it sorted.
I wish you and your daughter the very best, Florance. It will take time for her to learn how to deal with this, rape is a very, very hurtful thing to happen. Even three years on I find it difficult to say the word but life does move on and she will learn to trust men again.
I have really just said what Barbie already said but I just wanted to let you know that I am thinking about you and your daughter and if you have any questions or worries, I will try to help you in the best way that I can.
It's great your daughter is talking to you about how she feels; this is a step in the right direction, and will help her articulate her feelings, and take some of the weight off her shoulders. So this is something very positive.
There's a bulletin board that you can access through Truth About Rape: truthaboutrape.co.uk/index2.html
There are several people on here sharing their experiences. You should also be able to find lots of survivors forums by simply doing a google search: type in something like 'rape survivors' 'rape forums' etc. Some are better and more supportive than others. Your daughter could also set up a thread on a health site like this if she wanted to: there will be people like myself who will be more than happy to share their experiences and try to help if they can.
The feelings of 'was I/wasn't I to blame' are totally normal: sometimes, even though I know things weren't my fault, I can't help thinking 'what if I'd done x or not done y' etc. It's pointless, but it's human nature! And very soon after an attack, it's normal to blame yourself. Like I said in another post, there's a weird comfort in thinking 'well if I hadn't done x and y it wouldn't have happened'. It's scary accepting it wasn't your fault as it makes you realise there are some nasty people out there, and that it could possibly happen again.
It sounds to me like your daughter is dealing with everything pretty well so far. It was a long time before I could talk about my feelings and experiences, and I've only really put everything behind me recently: 6 1/2 years after the first rape, and 4 years since the end of an abusive relationship. It takes a long time for the emotional scars to heal, and talking about everything is the first big step on the road to recovery.
Stay positive, keep listening, and if your daughter does want to start a thread on here, I'll be happy to chat :-) And if you want any more advice, I'm here :-)
My advice would be to let her know you're there for her, and to listen to her if she needs to talk about any part of it. Do not push her to talk, as this can do more harm than good. Similarly don't push her into reporting this incident, or into things like counseling. Everything must be done in her own time, when she feels ready. Only she will know when this is. It could be weeks, it might be months, it could even be years.
Stress to her that she is NOT to blame for this. But understand that unfortunately feelings of self-blame are common and it can take a while to accept it wasn't your fault (this will probably sound very strange, but there is a weird comfort at first in thinking 'if I'd done x or y maybe it wouldn't have happened'; to accept you weren't in any way responsible means accepting that you were powerless, and this is VERY scary. It also opens up the idea that, because there wasn't anything you could have realistically done to stop it, it could happen again. This is how I felt, at any rate)
Mention counseling to her, as this can be a huge help. The fact she has opened up to you about it means she may well be ready to talk; and often it can be easier to talk to a stranger - it's less painful. Rape Crisis have centers all over; visit their website and have a look. They also offer practical advice to relatives and friends of victims, and have information on rape and sexual assault and how victims might feel, which might be helpful in understanding better what your daughter is going through.
Also suggest she tries on-line forums for support; I found talking to other victims INVALUABLE. I can't describe how much of a relief it is to say how you feel, which to anyone else might sound odd, and have other victims say 'yes, that's just how I feel': suddenly you're less alone; other people know what you're going through, you aren't a freak..!
Hope that helps, and if you need any more support, or have any more concerns or questions, I'll do my best to help.