Herb 'as effective' as anti-depressant

# 41

Posted: 07/03/2005 10:46

William, you have diliberately missed my point. I was NOT talking about food being on perscrition. I was asking by Vit C. (tablets or liquid) are not on perscription since they interfere (for example) with the absorbtion of the pill. Why do you prevaricate?

# 40

Posted: 07/03/2005 10:34

We are going around in circles here. The government decided to make St John’s Wort a prescription only “drug” because it interferes with other prescription drugs and that it was believed to be dangerous. The pill is prescribed for the very same reason. If a drug interferes with another drug or can be dangerous in certain circumstances it can be prescribed but one has suggested, as you seem to, to prescribe the food. Lots of things interfere with Calcium absorption. The hypocrisy of the “natural drugs” movement and its new age followers is obvious. When you buy St John’s Wort or any other manufactured product you support the industry that produces it. But for some reason people have got it into their heads that one set of manufacturers is to be preferred over the other. It’s a brilliant marketing ploy by the fake medicine people. One of the major reasons that “alternative medicine” is generally harmless is because it contains no active ingredients. It IS for the EFFECTIVE active ingredients that one should buy a drug and not because it is useless YET harmless. Homeopathic “medicine” BY EU LAW cannot contain an active ingredient. Therefore it is perfectly safe AND utterly useless. There is one danger and that is that ill people will depend on these useless and fake remedies and get more ill because they haven’t taken a proper drug or attended their local GP. There have been cases of people dying because they relied on “natural” remedies and stopped taking their life saving medical drugs. Furthermore there are confidence tricksters (I’ve seen their adds posted up in Post Offices) selling Homeopathic ‘flu remedy and this has the danger of encouraging vulnerable people to abstain from the effective recommended medical ‘flu vaccine and take the useless Homeopathic one, catch the ‘flu and DIE. Here is an excellent and balanced article on John’s Worth that is worth reading. http://www.psych.org/public_info/wort.cfm

# 39

Posted: 07/03/2005 09:21

William, yon choose to ,iss my point yet again. St John's Wort was not banned, it's simply not available over the counter. Your GP (provided he's bothered to inform himself) or a registered medical herbalist will perscribe it or you can get it over the border or in the UK. Your point about it being restricted because it interacts with other drugs is simply not valid. Vit C interacts with the pill, yet it's not perscription only. Alcohol interacts with calcium absorbtion yet no-one is suggestiong we should have to get it from the doctor and caffiene interferes with iron uptake yet is freely available in many OTC cold remedies

# 38

Posted: 04/03/2005 17:50

I’m a programmer with no connection whatsoever with “Big Pharma” as the conspiracy theorists call them. There is no evidence that St John’s Wort does anything. There is no known proven active ingredient in it. Any “evidence” is anecdotal. The type of condition it treats is hard to measure. This is typical of many CAM type treatments. Pain is another example. All very subjective. You mention that in sports supplements are important. But I am also aware that golfers are big fans of magnetic belts for back ailments and that is total nonsense so referring to sport as proof of effectiveness is a poor example. I vaguely remember reading that many supplements used in sports have no evidence of effectiveness either and it is possible that many individuals make a good living fooling athletes into thinking that their supplements, magic potions and all sorts of mind games work. There is little evidence that they do. To say, “it will be a sad day when the governments of the world outlaw all natural remedies in favour of man made drugs” is to make a common logical error. Whether weeds and plants are any use is not the slightest bit relevant to whether “man-made” drugs are effective or not. There is little or no connection. Man made drugs are based on Scientific research and therefore are proven to work and not to be unacceptably dangerous or they cannot be sold. If supplements are useless, and they mainly are, then that’s the end of the matter. Whether they are safer than drugs or less costly or “natural” is all totally irrelevant, other than to fool people with the notion that these useless plants and weeds and overdoses of trace minerals are good for them because they are “natural”. All this talk of natural is really related to paganism and magic. The worship of the Earth Goddess. The day the governments outlaw all this international billion dollar fraud I will celebrate.

# 37

Posted: 04/03/2005 16:55

This post seems to be dragging on somewhat. William you seem to have some sort of personal grudge towards the vitamin and supplement industry. Do you come from a background associated with the manufacture of pharmaceutical drugs by any chance? In any case, it seems the most danger with St Johns Wort is in its interaction with prescribed drugs. But on it's own it is safe. And yet many prescribed anti-dep's on their own have some major side-effects. And when mixed with St Johns Wort even more so. So is it a problem with SJW or with the anti-deps? I come from a background in sports nutrition where the use of effective supplements is huge. The use of creatine being one of the most effective and powerful supps around. There's 1000's of natural supplements derived from foods, herbs and weeds that can have profound effects safely and to discount them for what's available from the doctor is missing out on some of the earth's finest natural resources. There are some dubious ones also, and I know I'm not going to convince you to the good ones, however it will be a sad day when the governments of the world outlaw all natural remedies in favour of man made drugs.

# 36

Posted: 04/03/2005 16:03

Why mention “natural” if you don’t think it means something? If Aspirin is a drug then so is John’s Wort as aspirin can be got by chewing the bark of the “wild growing” Willow Tree which contains it. A chemical synthesized in a lab is identical in most cases to that chemical occurring in growing plants. Is buying cancer curing snake oil “consumer choice” then? It cannot be argued that ROI bases its laws on what the UK gets up to. I made this point vis a vis the smoking ban already. By banning John’s Wort we reduce dramatically its use and hopefully the Government sends out the message that it is dangerous. Those buying supplements incorrectly think they are good for you because they have been fooled into thinking this. The overwhelming Scientific opinion is that the vast majority of supplements and vitamins are totally useless for the vast majority of people and may be dangerous. One exception I can think of is Folic Acid for women who may get pregnant and a daily aspirin to reduce stroke and heart disease in those susceptible. There is an argument that “consumer choice” should be permitted and allow people to be defrauded, I do not subscribe to that cynical opinion. It IS a function of government to protect the population from scam merchants.

# 35

Posted: 04/03/2005 14:04

Of course buying vits or supplements is consumer choice. If course I didn't say that natural is good and lab produced is bad - that is arrant nonsense. I simply said that St. John's Wort is a herb - a natural product. Yes, aspirin or salicylic acid (sp) is a drug. A very useful and beneficial drug in certain conditions and harmful if overdosed. Balladona is a herb - a naturally occuring flower, in fact and a highly dangerous one. I simply meant that you can't nanny-state' legislate of every idiot out there who doesn't have the good sense to tell their doctor what supplements they're taking. Therefore it seems we have legislated to cover the backsides of doctors who are so vehemently anti- everything that doesn't suit their corporate agenda that they force consumers (we are health care consumers) to hide knowledge of any supplements they may be taking because they know their doctor support them or be partners in their healthcare. Therefore, the logic is, if consumers can't get they won't be taking it and therefore won't be in a position where they feel they have to hide the knowledge from a doctor. Of course as we don't live in 'spledid isolation' in the 26 counties, their idiology does not work.

# 34

Posted: 04/03/2005 13:33

What Anonymous 04/03/2005 08:31 is saying is that if something is "naturally occuring", whatever that means, it is OK then. Is Asprin a drug then? This is New Age Piffle. The concept where if it grows wild it's great and if it's made in a lab it's bad. What is it, bad karma man?

# 33

Posted: 04/03/2005 13:18

Do you believe in the crime of fraud? If you do then you also must accept that a con man cannot be allowed to fool someone into purchasing something that doesn’t do what is claimed of it. If I sell you a concoction that I claim say cures cancer, as some conmen do, but it doesn’t cure cancer. Is that fraud? Is that a crime or should that be regarded as “consumer choice”? People buy supplements, vitamin tablets, homeopathic remedies, magnetic belts and all sorts of other dubious products because they have become convinced that they confer a benefit. Is this not fraud? Where is the line between fraud and “consumer choice”? If a “Big Pharma” company sold a product that they claimed cured something based on shoddy or dishonest scientific tests and this was discovered they would rightly be sued. Why does this not apply to all the other “natural” products that have never been proven to do anything of use? Why is there one set of rules for “Big Pharma” and no rules at all for the snake oil salesmen? Odd isn’t it. Is that what you mean by “consumer choice”? Doctors were struck off recently for mall practice however while they cannot continue with their medical practice, the ridiculous irony is that they can carry on with the practice that they were struck off for in the first place. Daft isn’t it?

# 32

Posted: 04/03/2005 12:28

Similar to your view ona cigarette ban, the St. John's Work ban is alos not working considering the hundreds, maybe thousands who buy it over the border to order it from the UK. This is called consumer choice in a free market - like buying cigarettes or buying wine from France and bringing it back home.

# 31

Posted: 04/03/2005 11:05

"The main reason you have products like St Johns Wort being banned for OTC sale is due in my opinion to large pharmaceutical companies who wield a lot of power". What evidence do you have for this statement? You do agree that dangerous drugs should be banned don't you? John's Worth is dangerous so it should be banned, unless you think that dangerous drugs should NOT be banned because drug companies "have a lot of power". I would agree to a ban on cigarettes execpt it won't work. If they appeared today for the first time they would be banned. Alcohol in moderation is actually good for you, although I tend to subscribe to Oscar Wilde's injunction, "everything in moderation, including moderation."

# 30

Posted: 04/03/2005 10:01

The main reason you have products like St Johns Wort being banned for OTC sale is due in my opinion to large pharmaceutical companies who wield a lot of power. In 1989 L-tryptophan was banned for sale, at the same time a big push was made for Prozac. William - to say \"If your doctor doesn’t prescribe it – forget about it\" is idiotic - If your doctor prescribed you methamphetamine for weightloss would you use it? He certainly isn\'t going to prescribe exercise as he won\'t get any money out of that. Next time you\'re in your doctors office take a look at what product posters are on the wall. No doubt they will be Pfizer, Merck or similar, and what ever the next script is that you get, 9 times out of 10 it will be manufactured by one of the advertisers on the wall of your doctor.
One of the reasons that a product is prescription only is that the drug and parmaceutical companies, and hence the government get to profit. Currently the government doesn\'t profit from Vit C, yet there have been attempts in many countries to legislate vitamins to make them prescription only (Australia, NZ,France). True there\'s a lot of ****, snake water natural remedies out there, but there is a proportionate amount of dangerous prescribed drugs.

# 29

Posted: 04/03/2005 08:32

In reference to William's postign above. Alcohol and cigarettes are dangerous and many would say fulfill no useful function. Would you have these banned as well?

# 28

Posted: 04/03/2005 08:31

William, St.John's Wort is not a drug, it's a herb - and as such naturally occuring. In fact it grows wild.

# 27

Posted: 03/03/2005 17:05

You miss my point. The Pill, which is a drug, interferes with lots of things that's why it's on prescription just like St John's Wort, that's why they put it on prescription. Vit C is not a drug, it occurs naturally. If a drug interfered with caffine then it would have to be prescribed as otherwise patients would take it without knowing this and get ill. John's Wort IS dangerous and that is why it is prescribed. It should be banned alltogether however as there is no evidence it's any use.

# 26

Posted: 03/03/2005 16:55

You miss my point Willima,. Vit C, caffiene and calcium are NOT on perscription. Thankfully I don't suffer from headaches, perhaps becuase I drink 3 litres of water a day. Of course for those who do, this will not cure tension headaches

# 25

Posted: 03/03/2005 16:11

The pill IS on prescription. There is no such thing as "Big Pharma" other than in the minds of conspiracy theorists. The big money being made is by Homeopathic and Food Supplement manufacturers who sell what under EU law MUST BE water for €1,000 a litre. Also by those selling magnetic healing belts and other fraudulent devices. Drug companies have to spend millions of dollars to prove their drugs are safe AND effective. Those selling magic potions don’t. It’s a major loop hole in the law. Unfortunately gullible and sick people fall for labels that contain weasel words like, “believed to help”, “aids in the treatment of”, “natural”, “ancient Chinese”, “no side effects”, “tried and tested for centuries” etc. Recently a friend of mine wanted to “try” a magic potion, he said, “sure what is the harm in trying it for a while”? Of course that’s how these con artists make a lot of their money. People buy these products for a while because they are desperate and the snake oil salesmen clean up. If your doctor doesn’t prescribe it – forget about it. To be sure ask him and then follow his advice. If still in doubt get a second opinion or go to a medical specialist. Do not buy anything that even vaguely claims to cure any illness not prescribed by a doctor. Incidentally Paracetamol is mostly un-necessary. Apparently 60% of headaches are caused by dehydration. Drink a litre of water if you have a headache.

# 24

Posted: 03/03/2005 15:33

It interacts with other drugs - Vit C interacts with the pill. calcium interferes thyroxine. Even caffeine (found in manyold remedies) interferes with iron. Would you see them all on perscription.
Big Pharma don't like it because they can't make money out it, perhaps.

# 23

Posted: 03/03/2005 13:03

Paracetamol is ONLY dangerous if taken in excess of the stated dose and long term. Water is dangerous if taken in excess so is almost everything. St John’s Wort on the other hand is dangerous if taken in the NORMAL dosage as it can interfere with other drugs THAT is why it’s now on prescription. Each country decides what to allow and what to ban and that applies to everything including drugs. We correctly banned smoking in work places, the UK hasn’t. That doesn’t make us wrong. I do consider the people that cross the border to buy a dangerous and almost certainly useless drug. I think they are very very foolish to ignore the advice of their doctors and the various Irish health agencies. But lets fact it, they are depressed aren’t they and perhaps not thinking clearly and logically. This “big pharma” is a myth. If they could prove St John’s Wort worked and could synthesise the active ingredient they would do so and make a drug of it. There is no known active drug in it. It’s a myth like ALL the other hundreds of useless supplements that make billions for unscrupulous manufacturers. At least in the USA they jail the worst of these guys for fraud from time to time.

# 22

Posted: 03/03/2005 11:48

St. John's wort is no more dangerous than paracetamol, in fact much less so as there are many more deaths from paracetamol that St. John's Wort. Why thne is is not bannedin Britain. perhaps big pharmaceutical co's there did not get as upset about it as here. Before you go quoting your favourite website again, consider the hundreds and hundreds of people travelling over the border to get it (and indeed many other perscription based meds far cheaper than here).

# 21

Posted: 03/03/2005 10:36

In my opinion, St John\\\'s Wort is almost certainly useless. One problem with supplements that claim to \\\"cure\\\" subjective illnesses is the overwhelming importance of the placebo effect. I think it is now on prescription because it IS dangerous. Read Quackwatch on this http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/stjohn.html

# 20

Posted: 26/02/2005 16:55

I took Prozac for many years and had terrible side effects,was advised that St Johns Wort was the same and that i could swap from one to the other without a break i did this and found it was fantastic without side effects like other anti d's

# 19

Posted: 24/02/2005 10:26

Poorly worded above, re: deaths. I believe there are no known deaths as a result of side effects of St Johns Wort in hundreds of years of use. However there are deaths from many other OTC preparations as well as from pharmaceutical preparations.

# 18

Posted: 23/02/2005 19:45

ermmm.... there has been more than one trial, I believe. Dr Schwabe\'s stuff just shows up first in Google. St Johns Wort has been around for hundreds of years. We do not know if any people have died from side effects of it? It has the potential of lessening the effectiveness of some antibiotics (as do many other OTC preparations). That seems to be the big problem with it. I\'m not a medical professional by any stretch of the imagination, but I believe that the negatives on paroxetine listed above were contained on the manufacturer\'s website. Check the link for yourself. Nothing to do with Dr. William Schwabe. I get my St John\'s Wort from the US, bytheway. Don\'t care what Dr Schwabe says. People who ingest preparations in order to improve their health have a responsibility to read the labels, follow the directions and act like adults. We don\'t need pharmaceutical companies looking for restrictions from unwitting lawmakers in order to \"protect us\" from ourselves. If they are really worried, ban cigarettes and alcohol. Look up the side effects, deaths, etc from aspirin, johnwilliams.

# 17

Posted: 22/02/2005 21:17

The lack of understanding of science and scientific analysis in Ireland in amply demonstrated by many of the naive comments on this subject. Has anyone actually read the trial which compares st john's wort to paroxetine? There are a number of flaws in it. I am no expert on double-blind trials it seems that this one was not well constructed. Why was paroxetine chosen when there are other ssri's with a much better safety profile. Would it by any chance have anything to do with the fact that the trial was funded by Dr William Schwabe Pharmaceuticals, the largest manufacture of st john's wort in Europe?

# 16

Posted: 22/02/2005 08:58

It's true for Liam, next they'll want to put out iron pills and vit c. on perscription so you can hand out €5 to a GP in order to get thyem or a multi-vit tonic.

# 15

Posted: 21/02/2005 16:46

The ONLY reason (ultimately) that natural products are gradually being controlled by prescription is that they are a threat to pharmaceuticals because they work as well, or better, than the pharmaceuticals (especially in the case of St Johns Wort for mild depression - compare side effects, cost, etc). This takes MONEY away from the pharaceutical manufacturers. They have millions and millions to invest in digging up any problems which can be exaggerated and presented in a very slick and professional way to legislators. The "innocent" lawmakers cower when faced with the well-dressed, well-spoken powerful potential contributors to their campaigns, or opening plants in their constituencies. ANY "argument" presented well (with millions of euro or dollars behind the presentation) can convince people of anything. Look at all the patriotic American parents proudly sending their sons off to Iraq to "protect the American way of life." People who pay attention to their health in an educated way are in the minority. Minorities do not generally affect political decisions. That is the sad truth. Most people (doctors included) are sheep who believe what is told them, if it is presented in a professional and appealing way. Most voters are uneducated about their health and their options, and legislators and pharmaceutical companies know that. Follow the money and the power. The only way to make a difference is to have OUR OWN slick argument to counter the pharmaceuticals. But PR is their life, their job. We have other jobs, and not much money to counter it. I'm very frustrated with it all... and frightened, frankly.

# 14

Posted: 21/02/2005 16:27

Information on Paxil.... The following is from the manufacturer\'s webpage. \"Important Safety Information: _________
Prescription Paxil CR is not for everyone. Don\'t take with MAOIs or thioridazine. Paxil CR is generally well tolerated. As with many medications, there can be side effects. **************Some of the side effects may include infection, nausea, diarrhea, dry mouth, constipation, decreased appetite, dizziness, sweating, tremor, sexual side effects, injury, yawning, weakness, insomnia, abnormal vision or sleepiness.*****************
__________Paxil CR is approved only for adults 18 years and over. In some children and teens, antidepressants increase suicidal thoughts or actions. Whether or not you are taking antidepressants, you or your family should call the doctor right away if you have worsening depression, thoughts of suicide, or sudden or severe changes in mood or behavior (for example feeling anxious, agitated, panicky, irritable, hostile, aggressive, impulsive, severely restless, hyperactive, overly excited, or not being able to sleep), especially at the beginning of treatment or after a change in dose.
__________Don\'t stop taking Paxil CR before talking to your doctor since side effects may result from stopping the medicine, particularly when abrupt. ***************Symptoms some patients have reported on stopping Paxil CR include: dizziness, sensory disturbances (including electric shock sensations), abnormal dreams, agitation, anxiety, nausea, sweating, mood fluctuations, headache, fatigue, nervousness and sleep disturbances.********************
__________Tell your doctor if you are pregnant or plan to become pregnant. Babies born to mothers who have taken antidepressants in the third trimester of pregnancy, including SSRIs such as Paxil CR, have reported complications. These complications, which may appear at delivery, have included difficulties with breathing, turning blue, seizures, changing body temperature, feeding problems, vomiting, low blood sugar, floppiness, stiffness, tremor, shakiness, irritability or constant crying. Tube feeding, help with breathing, and longer hospitalization may be needed. There have also been reports of premature births in pregnant women exposed to SSRIs, including Paxil CR.
__________Like many antidepressants, Paxil CR can be present in breast milk so tell your doctor if you are nursing.\"
(website: http://www.paxilcr.com/Important_Safety_Info.jsp)

# 13

Posted: 19/02/2005 23:33

the side effects of prescriptin drugs are far more serious than that of st.johns wort, if the IMB can get away with banning this , then what next, watch your vit.c. and the likes they will all be banned , like they are doing in the uk.at the moment.talk about democracy, and free choice. the government is acting to gag the press, at the moment, this is only the start, we the people are being led up the garden path, and before long we will be sheep, doing as we are told by the high and mighty for our own good. do as your told we know best do not step out of line,to do so would be bad for your health.......

# 12

Posted: 18/02/2005 22:16

QUOTE \"Does any one know if it\'s still possible to order this by post or via the web from large UK health stores?\" .......... Yes, it is possible, though difficult, because it is illegal for us to receive any prescription drug sent from mail order. You have to find ways around it. Take a drive/train to Newry like HelenSP does (or get someone to pick it up for you when they go). The government eejits bowed to the \"superior knowledge\" of the professional pharmaceutical expert educators. ;-) I think they DO think we are stupid.

# 11

Posted: 18/02/2005 14:36

i think that it might be beneficial to list the side effects of St.Johns Wort and SEROXAT so that comparison could be made

# 10

Posted: 18/02/2005 14:04

St. John's Wort is available in the North of Ireland. I buy mine every 2 months in Newry in either Sainsburys (own brand) or in health stores. The government saw how popular this herb was and knew they could make money out of it.

# 9

Posted: 18/02/2005 12:03

It IS available on perscription. It's seems that your son's doctir is either uninformed or unwilling on that score.

# 8

Posted: 18/02/2005 11:27

Even though St. John's Wort has been shown to be affective it would seem that there is a legitimate reason to make it prescription only. So it's probably the case-as the first poster mentioned-that doctors don't know enought about it. In my experience of using Seroxat it did take more than 6 weeks to get the full benefit from it so it would be interesting to see a study with a longer time frame.

# 7

Posted: 18/02/2005 10:28

It's so laughable how the decision to make this herb "prescription only" is couched in concern for the consumer regarding side effects, blah,blah. Pharmaceutical companies are not that altruistic and the government obviously bowed to the pressure for purely economic reasons and maintaining the status quo of power in the hands of the medical profession. Do they think we're stupid??

# 6

Posted: 18/02/2005 08:19

Does any one know if it's still possible to order this by post or via the web from large UK health stores?

# 5

Posted: 17/02/2005 22:33

AMEN! to Anonymous at 16:51! Perhaps Rennies should be prescription only as they interfere with antibiotics. Aspirin can cause you to bleed to death. (Read up on the side effects of aspirin sometime. Scary stuff!) Alcohol can make you forget your birth control pill. Pharmaceuticals and insurance companies are running the medical BUSINESS. Doctors are frightened, overwhelmed and too lazy to do anything besides listen to the lines fed to them by pharm reps and insurance companies. They get taught in medical school that they are God. I found out recently that the legal definition of malpractice is not bad practice, but rather it is diverging from the accepted methods and procedures of one's peers! I haven't looked it up to verify, but I believe it! Sheep. No wonder they are afraid to try anything different or new. I am dismayed and disheartened, the more I find out. I get my St John's Wort in the US. It can also be obtained without prescription across the border.

# 4

Posted: 17/02/2005 19:42

When my son asked about the possibility of a prescription for St. John's Wort, his doctor told him it was unavailable, so it appears that one cannot obtain it either by prescription or over the counter.

# 3

Posted: 17/02/2005 16:53

Royal College of Alternative Medicine (RCAM) is currently aware of well over 100 Alternative Therapies which are far more safe and cost-effective than their Orthodox Counterparts: But who on earth at the Ministry of Health is actually listening to all of this Highly Eclectic News ?

# 2

Posted: 17/02/2005 16:51

Amazing that just after the study showing the benefits of St. Johns wort had more effect and less side effects than prescribed medication that the IMB banned it from over the counter. If people realised the benefits of John\'s wort and the side effects of the likes of Seroxat, the big Pharmaceutical boys would lose money, after all this is what it is all about .The earth has an abundance of herbs, all God given, all free.