'Fair Deal' nursing home law postponed

# 36

Posted: 06/09/2010 15:45

Thanks a mil, Paul 1234,

I have had the booklet a week and could not figure it out. I will do as you say and contact the nursing home support scheme, again thanks a mill.

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I DWELL IN POSSIBILITY

# 35

Posted: 06/09/2010 11:47

You may move choose to move into the Fair Deal from subvention. It means certainty for you going into the future re. fees. Basically the contribution of the person will remain the same whilst that of the HSE may rise or fall depending on what is agreed between the nursing home and the NTPF. Most residents of nursing homes have seen the contribution paid by the HSE rise significantly under Fair Deal compared to subvention.

My advice would be to apply for the Fair Deal. You will then be asked to choose to either remain as you are on subvention or move into the fair deal. The choice is yours then to make.

Given 4.5 years have been spent already in the nurisng home the principle private residence (house) will not be included in the fair deal assessment.

Note however that should you decide to sell the house now, then the proceeds of the house will be looked at as being cash assets, will need to be declared and will be assessed accordingly. Food for thought - maybe you should not sell the house.

I dont know what happens if you gift the house to a relative, but if you contact your local nursing home support scheme office they will let you know.

# 34

Posted: 04/09/2010 10:40

yahama

1.If you have been in a private nursing home for 4and a half years in the subvention scheme with less than 36 thousand assets, should you stay the way you are or go over to the state support fair deal,

 2. if you go fair deal can you stay in the same nursing home. 

3.  with the principal residence now empty can she gift it to her children to sell or if she sells it herself does the money become her assets.

if anyone can advise i would be very grateful........thanks

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I DWELL IN POSSIBILITY

# 33

Posted: 16/02/2010 14:54

No it just means that the principle primary residence is not taken into consideration after 3 years. All other payments by the residents will remain the same and will continue for the duration of their stay in a nursing home or their lifetime.

# 32

Posted: 16/02/2010 12:43

Does this mean that once a person has paid a contribution towards their nursing home for three years that they stop paying a contribution after the 3 years.

Does this mean the fair deal picks up the full cost after 3 years?

# 31

Posted: 15/02/2010 22:14

PatM, it's not worth the effort & cost of the "ancillary support" (i.e. effectively mortgaging the property) if your mother has already been in care two years, unless she has property OTHER than family home assessed against her. If the (empty) family home is her only property, then it will only be assessed against her for one more year as by then she'll be 3 years in care - in this case, easier to just pay the contribution for the year - that's what I decided in same circumstance.

If however, she has property OTHER than family home, that is a different matter as such property will be assessed indefinitely (ie not limited to 3 years cap ) as part of her means - in this case the "ancillary support" (loan) is worthwhile as it saves you making the aditional contribution while she is alive. Any loan will be backdated to date of application.

kb

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three kinds of disciples, those who impart Zen; those who tend the altars & temples; those who are the rice-bags & clothes-hangers

# 30

Posted: 15/02/2010 14:37

Its my understanding that it will be backdated to the date of the scheme's commencement if you were in a nursing home before 27th October 2009.

In any event your mother's principle primary residence should only be assessed for the period of time up until she is in a nursing home for 3 years.

You might want to weigh up whether it is worth going to the cost of appointing care representatives, swearing affadavids, getting valuations and getting the ancillary state support in place for a year or less.

You might be better off just applying for state support and forgetting about ancillary state support.

Ask the local office dealing with your application to let you know how much she would receive in state support and how much extra she would receive in ancillary state support.

I know that a number of people have done the sums and have worked out that it is not worth it.

# 29

Posted: 15/02/2010 13:24

Has anyone received a nursing home loan (ancillary support), and, if so, has the loan been backdated to the date of the commencement of the scheme?

My mother applied at the end of October 2009. She has been in a nursing home for 2 years, and her case is fairly straightforward. However we are still waiting for a decision from the HSE.

Thanks

# 28

Posted: 13/08/2009 16:15

Have a buddy in HSE section that deals with this...apparently..legislation has passed in both houses (Dail and Seand) Budget for this year has been set aside..due to come in on 1 Sept...so we wait...no doubt it will be delayed a wee bit 

Im actually waiting patiently for this to come in as my elderly mum in a home and we are struggling trying to sell her home to pay charges...and arrears...

So....we wait :-)

# 27

Posted: 13/08/2009 15:44

Have heard that Fair Deal will be in on Sept. 28th.

# 26

Posted: 13/08/2009 14:36

Phoned the HSE and they say it "should" be in by September 1 but they have been told nothing about it other than the legistaltion is in place.?????

Has anybody heard any different?

Do you need to fill out a form to transfer into the scheme?

Also, what happens if there is no money left to pay nursing home and fair deal does not come in, Has the person moved somewhere else?

# 25

Posted: 29/07/2009 08:17

Will the Fair Deal really be up and running in September in view of the need for excuses to save money? My wife was diagnosed 2 years ago with Alzheimers at 58 years of age, although she was showing the symptoms for a couple of years before that. The progression is very rapid, and I have been advised that I will need to be looking for care sooner rather than later. However, it seems that it is not permitted to contract this disease under the age of 65, as care institutions have a lower age limit. Notwithstanding that, I found the HSE professionals to be very helpful. Just don't know where to turn sometimes for answers. There seems to be a dishonesty in publications denying qualification criteria for assistance that subsequently turn out to available when pursued.

# 24

Posted: 07/06/2009 22:57

Fair Deal currently in the Seanad - due to be enacted later in June and up and running by Sept. Budget for 09 is c. 52 million - not alot of money. Maybe that they decide to sort people currently in nursing home's who are finding it hard to pay first along with bed blockers in hospitals. Might be worth applying for subvention now, entering a nursing home in August and then transferring into F.D. when it becomes available in September.

# 23

Posted: 06/06/2009 12:52

To "Citizen",

it would be disastrous to sell your mother's house, firstly because of low property values in present market, but more importantly because your mother's assets (money) from the sale of the house will be assessed as means by the HSE, which will disqualify her from all state help and she will receive no subvention at all!  Under the Fair Deal scheme however, the state would take only 15% of the value of the home, and pay the remainder of all NH costs.

For the sake of a few months can you not either (a) rent the house temporarily (even cheaply) to make at least some payment to the NH, or (b) obtain a re-mortgage from a bank or an equity release company? You would only need a very small loan for a few months' NH payments, and for only €100 a month you can borrow nearly €70,000 at present home loan interest rates. Or, at least come to an arrangement with the NH (through a solicitor) whereby in the event of failure to pay, they would have a charge on the house, (ie) they could recover their dues from eventual sale of house.

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three kinds of disciples, those who impart Zen; those who tend the altars & temples; those who are the rice-bags & clothes-hangers

# 22

Posted: 05/06/2009 11:57

I have also been told been told that Fair Deal is coming in during Sept/Oct...I have a friend in HSE Dept that will manage this and they also have been assured it's coming in..

Currently have mum's house for sale as we owe home a lot of money....maybe we should sit tight for a few months .....

# 21

Posted: 04/06/2009 22:18

I have just recently contacted the local HSE office to arrange a review of my mother's subvention. They told me that they were not currently doing reviews as the new 'fair deal' scheme is 'almost certainly' being introduced in September. We shall see....

# 20

Posted: 11/05/2009 15:57

I would contact your the public health nurse looking after the person in question and ask for her to be put on the waiting list for a public bed in a public nursing home such as St Mary's in The Phoenix Park or Cherry Orchard. Other than that I would apply for Fair Deal when it becomes available. Its scheduled for the committee and report stage in the Dail next week and looks likely to be in place by September. As I said before it will probably sort people out first who are in nursing homes at the moment rather than new applicants.

# 19

Posted: 08/05/2009 22:35

Hello - i am trying to get some subvention for a lady (over 80) in a nursing home costing 3,500 euro per month!! Her savings have now dwindled but because she owns a house in Dublin she is not entitled to either a pension (she has none) or subvention!! Does anyone know of any grant or help that she might be entitled to?? Someone mentioned that all over 70s are entitled to free Nursing Home -- where is this stated? -- and how should i go about claiming?? All help and ideas gratefully received!!

# 18

Posted: 14/02/2009 23:17

The 2nd stage of the bill was before the Dail on 10/02/09. TDs from all parties spoke on the bill and as usual had completly different takes on it. Its a pity that progressive legislation like this does not enjoy cross party support and positive discussion and contributions. I do beleive that the legislation will be enacted this year, however, the main problem with it is that there is a cap on the budget for the Fair Deal. By the time that people in severe financial need who are in nursing homes at the moment are sorted out it is unlikely that there will be any money left to help those that are in hospital or the community that need to enter nursing homes. Unless the scheme is properly resourced, the anomolies that are present at the moment up and down the country will definitly continue.

# 17

Posted: 05/02/2009 18:18

tilly, I agree 100% with you. I am waiting two years for the Fair Deal legislation, and now that it is finaly before the Dail, my local (Labour Party) TD Mary Upton tells me they are opposing it. It is beyond belief. It is because of these people that Mary Harney's exceptionally progressive legislation has been stalled all this time, costing relatives like my two elderly aunts infinitely more than it would ever have cost them under such legislation the provisions of which are extemely generous and reasonable by any sane standards. The sustained opposition to this legislation has caused an inestimable amount of hardship to those of us who have to pay for our relatives in a private NH and so far I have yet to hear any rational explanation for such opposition. kb

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three kinds of disciples, those who impart Zen; those who tend the altars & temples; those who are the rice-bags & clothes-hangers

# 16

Posted: 22/01/2009 08:43

The Fair Deal has been 'postponed' because of wrangling over the % 'take' by the HSE of an elderly person's assets. How nice it would be if all elderly people in nursing homes had such excess disposable assets. What seems to be entirely overlooked here is that the cases of genuine need i.e. those who have nothing but an insufficient income, are suffering great hardship because others wish to retain an "equitable" portion of their assets. I looked after my severely disabled mother for 15 years. She sold her home many years ago to provide additional capital to support herself - her pension was insufficient. Due to the severity of her disability she had to enter a nursing home 7 years ago. No public beds were available (she is still on 'the list') and she has used nearly all her capital to supplement her income so as to pay private nursing home fees (forget the "disregard" of €11,000, it just doesn't happen).She is 90 years old and her money will last another 7 months. What then? The county HSE will only allocate so much to her for additional help due to "insufficient funding" - believe me I have tried! Perhaps all of you who are agonizing over how much money will be left to you after the HSE pays you or your relatives' nursing home fees, just need to stop and reflect on this: your collective actions have delayed the implementation of the Fair Deal which would have provided a life line to people in genuine need like my mother. And please, no unpleasant responses to this comment, which will only add to my family's misery.

# 15

Posted: 12/09/2008 14:17

bizzy, in the case of joint ownership what you are querying is called the deferred contribution, it would work out as follows: where 1 person enters care, the deferred contribution will be 2.5% of the total valuse of the house for each year of care in the nursing home and it will be capped at 7.5%. I really do not think this fair deal scheme will come in at all.

# 14

Posted: 05/09/2008 15:30

Fair Deal has been parked...and I would imagine in the current economic climate will not be coming in at all...so unfortunately I don't think it will apply in your case..

Sorry I cant be of any assistance with your query...

# 13

Posted: 05/09/2008 15:11

Can somebody please help me. my elderly sister is 81 years of age and it going into a nursing home. we own our home jointly as joint tenants, and if she dies her shares goes to me and vice versa. where does the Fair Deal scheme leave me? will i have to pay 15% on half of the value of my home? Can somebody advise me

# 12

Posted: 19/05/2008 10:27

True, there are some people who would rather send their elderly relatives to a nursing home rather than look after them at home - where it is possible but you've got to ask yourself WHY that is the case.
Unfortunately Florry, sudden illness or injury to you would leave you in a position where you could not look after her.
any nursin homes have high dependany units, my great-aunt was in one for some months so altho it may never happen, it is worth keeping in mind and good an all as hospitals may be unless her condition worsened, most HDU's in nusing homes are far more pleasant than hospitals.

# 11

Posted: 16/05/2008 23:50

anonymous,i agree with you its not possible in some situations, but there are some families that would rather go on a holiday than come spend quality time with their relative. i just feel its an easy cop out to push an elderly relative into a nursing home if there is a chance of keeping them at home. i wont come to a situ where i cant look after her. the condition she is in now demands more care than she would get in a nursing home. she is not in good health and ive been told dont be suprised if you walk into the room and she is no longer with you. if she needs much more medically the hosp is there and than as she wished to die at home,and hell bent i will give her this wish with or without help from the others. she has come through so much to now it prob wouldnt be believed. I feel n.hs are ripping families off. if it costs 600wkly for respite care in a nursing home.how than do they reckon it costs 1000 or more. i would expect to get an itemized bill for every cent parted with from the assets house etc.how do we honestly know where this money goes.i never trust any nursing home again from the manager down.wait til you have an issue and see how fast they can hide things.and appear all concerned. never ever again a nh for mum.

# 10

Posted: 16/05/2008 10:23

Id love to have been able to have mum at home or with relatives..but there is only myself and my brother..Im separated and just in process of buying another house, so I couldnt take her and my only brother doesnt really care to be honest..so NH it had to be..
She's perfectly content there with lots of company and it is a lovely spot...so could be worse..
We are currently attempting to sell her home to pay fees..HSE have agreed to meet most of charges for 6 months till we sort things out...
Awful waste of her savings and home though...I think Fair Deal is a brilliant idea..can understand why age action etc have blocked it ???

# 9

Posted: 16/05/2008 10:00

Florry it would be nice if this were the case but for some people, relatives simply cannot rotate around care giving, it's simply not possible. And in cases where the elderly person is in the advanced stages of alzeihmers or dementia is also is not appropriate as they will need dedicated nursing care 24 X7.
You look after your Mum and it is great that you can do this but what happens if or when you come to a situation when you can't? What then? .
If your brothers and sisters can't do it now, will they be more likley to do it then?
Absolutely more, a heck of a lot more should be done for carers. Lets face it you're not asking for much.

# 8

Posted: 16/05/2008 01:46

Anonymous,i agree with you some elderly dont have a choice and thats sad, its as if these vunerable ones are preyed on because of their situ,if only relatives could rotate around care giving and this care in assoc with paying a carer for the hours where there is a gap maybe it would help and also give the elderly person the privilage to remain in their own home.i know i will prob be cut down for saying this,just a suggestion.Citizen,who will look aftr my mum if not a n.h?i do i gave up my job to care for her as she needs full care, hoisted in and out of bed,incont,stroke,etc...i have sisters and brothers but they dont come to lend a hand,but thankfully my own family are around to help if needed.i find the going tough at times as social life is so limited.if only the gov would give more funds to the carers assoc to provide more hours so i could get a little break one day each w/e it would be a great help.if only more elderly were giving the support to enable them to live out their lives in their own homes.my mum is so content with being surrounded with her grand children ,us,and all her familure things around her.its only fair the elderly be given every oppertunity to fulfill their wish.

# 7

Posted: 15/05/2008 11:55

So who wll look after your mum if not a NH??

# 6

Posted: 15/05/2008 11:24

Anonymous, you're lucky. Some people have NO choice but to find nursing home care for their elderly relatives and there are countless in a position where the elderly persons house cannot be sold to pay for care and the family cannot afford the fees themselves. This despite the fact that everyone over 70 is ENTITLED to nursing home care.

# 5

Posted: 15/05/2008 02:44

i will never place my mum into a n.h to have all her hard earned money and years of paying taxes for to be left short changed by the greedy nursing homes etc.her will is made to whom in the family i dont know but at least it isnt costing any thing like what these nursing homes are charging.and her care needs are family managed.

# 4

Posted: 14/05/2008 10:29

my husband has dementia, i am looking after him. i am in my 60s and my health is going down fast. if i put him in a home, what do i live off. our savings would be gone in no time and what then?

# 3

Posted: 18/02/2008 22:16

Re the 'Fair Deal'..
my 82 year old mum suffers quite badly from dementia..Last May (2007) myself and my brother admitted her to a private nursing home as she was a danger to herself, living alone and we arnt in a position to take her on..She is now extremely content and healthy in nursing home..
We assumed Fair Deal was coming in in Jan this year and she had enough savings to pay nursing home fees (€1075 per week!!) till feb this year...
Savings are now exhausted, Fair Deal is NOT coming in it appears, her home cannot be sold, to pay fees, by myself and brother as we do not own it. We believe we will have to apply to have her made a ward of court (10-14 week process) and then put house on market (this could take ANY length to sell)...In the meantime how are we expected to pay nursing home fees?? We cannot afford €1075 per week (who could?) We would have started this process last summer but for fact we were assured Fair Deal would be implemented in Jan 08..
Any ideas?? anyone? We may possibly be looking a YEAR before we can have house sold..
If it is true that all over 70 are entitled to free nursing home care how can we investigate this??

# 2

Posted: 10/12/2007 11:19

Anne, do you not realise that all those over 70 are entitled to free nursing home care.
If this legislation is brought in, elderly people in need of nursing home care will simply sign their assests over to an adult offspring before applying.

# 1

Posted: 08/12/2007 00:17

The govt. had one year to get this sorted. The delay is not helping many older people who are paying all their fees privately in private nursing homes. This group is hidden. There are many people in nursing homes paying up to 60,000 Euro per year. They share the nursing home with others, who were given private nursing home beds by the HSE to free up hospital beds. These people were put through no means test and are paying only 120 euro per week. They are in some cases wealthier than those paying the full fees. Some of these lucky people are also selling their homes after getting the nursing home bed having only been a few weeks in an acute hospital and there is no levy whatsoever on their assets. The current system is so unfair and inequitable. Surely here are the seeds of another repayment claim? Many are unaware that the HSE have placed people in private nursing homes with no means test for a fixed fee of 120 Euro per week while refusing others a subvention and putting them through intrusive means tests- in some cases looking for wills and deeds of houses etc.. Many paying full fees, who have been refused any financial help from the HSE, are depending on the introduction of the Fair Deal to ease the burden even a small amount. Many of these people have already sold property to pay the fees. The proposed levy is a maximum of 15% on the value of a house. There is also charge of 5% each year of stay in the nursing home from assets other than the house eg. cash on deposit. Therefore those who have paid so much and sold the house to fund fees are even further disadvantaged by having to pay 5% per year with no cap after three years and those who get to keep their home only pay for a maximum of three years. Your article does not make this point clear.