Poll: After Cloyne, should the Catholic church be allowed maintain any involvement in healthcare?
 
Yes
22%  
No
75%  
Unsure
  3%


AH22  Posted: 04/08/2011 14:13

I wont argue on guilt of those who are responsible. What I am saying is that the church aspect is but a corner of the whole picture and right now the full picture is more than Irish people can currently bare or comprehend. Especially as it is 'their' church that is being destroyed from inside out. The point of the state holding open the door. Those dark forces operating inside the church new that the society in which their madness evolved had no interest or care to stop them.. They Knew this..No inspection that uncovered wrong was going to stop them. No report to Garda or to Health Boards was going to stop them. Because all these people knew. And all the child agencies know. That politically the 'right' (to us and any normal perspective 'right' actual meant here despicable) people were put in the most senior roles and they were 'right' because they could be relied on to do the 'right' thing around this issue. Many court cases will prove and testify. If I name them I name the 'right' (despicable) people in charge. They still have the law on their side. So far.. They held the door in that they were the state authority. The regulators (sound familiar pattern no?). They also helped atrocious vicious people many who would have even greater positions where access to vulnerable children were operate with immunity over and over again. But they did not have to help church people hide or escape. They left that the church authorities to take care of that. Which they did and did with the same level of sinister expertise. But they did help and do help known beyond our humane comprehension evil units escape and live freely. Always until they get into to much trouble they cant help them. Like when a child dies.. My point is not to exonerate those who used the area of genuine faith and spirituality of a whole people and foully polluted it. My point is to say that the Rock that gathered their filth is still rolling. Those that pushed the rock away from church authorities and worked hard to protect other evil units are retiring on massive pensions. The system as we speak is the same as it always was. I could give an example even up today it would break your heart. My point is just because those in a section of society who have been called to book. Those who facilitated their growth and immunity are still at large. Hence all we have done is take away branches. The rot still stands and operates today. They main agencies have gone for ground. You may well ask why. Because they have no answers that will ever be anything close to the truth. They like to get paid and keep their jobs just like everyone else. They did not condone. They just stayed silent and did nothing to alert the public or to organise a force of good against evil. Believe me when I say they are operating today and there is nowhere anyone in this country can go to stop them. They are the authority. They make the rules. They hide the filth.

CAET  Posted: 04/08/2011 12:07

AH22 - well said - it is a terrible mess - the State was involved of course. The Nuns certainly kept a strict regimen of cleanliness in hospitals - but then they had a good grounding in total authority and the expectation of being obeyed. The hospitals were also not as over-crowded due to our rapidly increasing population in those days, and being under-resourced in all areas does not help with staff morale either. Any good manager, given the correct number of properly trained cleaning staff armed with the right equipment - would be able to achieve the same standards as the Nuns did.

Anonymous  Posted: 04/08/2011 11:54

Yes the state is culpable for not pursuing them as criminals but is IS the Church who held the door open for those evil abusers to enter and it was members of that church who did the abusing and it was their superiors who moved them and hid them and even today have the outrageous insulting attitude of not imagining they are above the law and not co-operatiugn with invesatigations.

AH22  Posted: 03/08/2011 21:52

All of the above is totally understandable.  And true the only reason 'catholic' church got involved in education or hospital was for power. Going back to colonial influenced formats back to battle around the time of Reformation and on to the Instruction from Rome to form Diocese church taking away hermits and spiritual Christianity replacing it with an authoritarian model.

Reaction is justified and enevitable conclusion.  Just One Big Massive Large Problem.  Its was not the Church that held the door open for those who can only be described as evil to enter the church.  It was not ordinary decent religious who genuinely compassionately gave up their lives for which fortunate generations have individually benefited.  For the evil ones their guardian Angel was the state. Without their nodd and go they would not have been able to know that they would never be bothered by issues like law.  Not only not stopped but a whole system that already existed in which they could act with immunity. 

Sadly like a giant rock coming down a hill so is the state issue.  Today those in the highest roles are hired for there ability to turn a blind eye and to organise ways in which a little is done as possible to facilitate people who want to harm children.  They ran out of excuses of finance long long ago.  Also the main child agencies are very well aware of this going back nearly twenty years.  I asked each why they accept it.  All responses were same.  There is nothing we can do.  They sort of carry on within the system.  To me I understand if they 'rock the boat' then they would have difficulty as organisations.  To me the only choice they professionally and moraly had and have is to cause mass protests.  Untill those people working within the state especially those so well known that several court cases have been high profile and with their full prints all over.  But they so far are free.  They have amassed small fourtunes on the high wages that served to keep key people quiet as much as anything else.  All they have belongs to the state and like the church all their earnings, homes and any bank accounts should be frozen and returned along with pensions under proper criminal/fraud/ or malpractice charges.

Until we get to grips with the full picture we may not see the wood for the trees.  Think about how pathetic these people were they did not hide.  They were direct, open and in places they would always be caught.  It was not just the church that said hide.  It was a whole hoard of reports, inspectors, public condemers.  Going back to Fr Brown the american priest in the 1940s who read the riot act on the state here and the church.  If you want to throw out you have to include the political associations and the professional classes involved also.  Otherwise you just pruning branches.

Battle  Posted: 03/08/2011 19:25

"Divine Creator". Oh please! C'mon folks, I don't mean to upset anyone, but what have the following got in common: a) Santa; b) Easter Bunny; and c) God? Yes, that's right.

The Tooth Fairy seems to have had a key role in drafting our 1937 Constitution, the preamble to which reads as follows:

"In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,

We, the people of Éire, Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial...."

 We (rightly) accuse our US cousins of being Bible thumpin' rednecks, but at least they had the good sense to explicity keep this silliness out of their written Constitution.

Article 6 reads: "All powers of government, legislative, executive and judicial, derive, under God, from the people, whose right it is to designate the rulers of the State and, in final appeal, to decide all questions of national policy, according to the requirements of the common good".

Ireland's President and all our Judges are also compelled by this Constitution to swear alliegance to the invisible Space God whom noone has ever seen, who never does or says anything, and whose last (semi-reliable) possible sighting dates back over 2,000 years.

If you think that disrespectful, how would you feel if our Constitution were instead to confirm our devotion to ridding our bodies of Thetans, who, as any Scientologist will tell you, were brought to Earth 75 million years ago by Xenu of the Galactic Confederacy, in spacecraft resembling commercial airliners, stacked them around volcanoes and detonated hydrogen bombs in the volcanoes. The Thetans then clustered together, stuck to the bodies of the living, and continue to do this today.  

Ireland's long era of infantalism is over; wake up and smell the coffee. Believe in yourself and try to stop listening to the fairy stories we all had forced upon us from earliest childhood. They just ain't so.

C77  Posted: 03/08/2011 16:20

Our Divine Creator (name unimportant) name of religion UNIMPORTANT to

ME.  What I do want to emphasise is the fact that when NUNS were in charge

of nursing and cleaning, hospitals were practically germ free.

Oh! for those days to return.

One last comment, I have no time for organised religion.  God is in us each

and every one, if you can't do good for somebody, don't do anything...

CAET  Posted: 03/08/2011 13:58

Any Pope who is elected in Rome, sits on and with the help of his staff, controls a huge amount of wealth in many forms - some centuries old and other more recently gathered wealth - still ongoing in it's income from many sources. How does this sit with Jesus I wonder? The treasures and wealth should have been used long ago to assist those in need. The public (in Ireland and anywhere else for that matter), should not be made to pay part or the whole of the costs of the SINS and COVER UPS of this religious organisation! The Catholic Church was founded by MEN/MAN as Jamie correctly says, and JESUS was a JEW - he was not a CATHOLIC at all and had never heard of such an organisation. It is high time that this organisation paid to put things right, and this should go through the Justice system - if not in Ireland then perhaps through the European Court of Human Rights - so that hopefully, a less biased outcome might be reached! The Catholic Church has influenced medical care in this country and many other countries - and not always for the betterment of the patients concerned. Let's face it - the bottom line is this - the people of Ireland and the rest of the world MUST struggle out from under the suffocating cloak of the Catholic Church - which conducts itself as if it is answerable to NOBODY! The Catholic Church has no place in Medicine - unless as a medically qualified employee of a hospital run by lay people and without a religious ethos attached to the hospital of any kind. Surely this wealthy Church could still make themselves feel good by giving huge donations in the name of JESUS CHRIST (and not the Catholic Church) - to hospitals if they want to help! (Consider Jesus - who helped the poor and sick but did not cover himself in wealth and grandeur or pomp and ceremony)! There are good organisations and St V.dP is definitely one of the best, but ... that hardly makes up for all the bad and the rotten core - where the pain of many is located. Religion or chosen lack thereof, is one facet of a person's life, medical care is a science and should be run with UNTAINTED ethics, by properly qualified scientists and medically qualified staff and have no input from clergy of any description.

Battle  Posted: 02/08/2011 12:50

We "need" the help of the voluntary religious organisations the way Japan needs earthquakes, New Orelans needs floods and China needs more air pollution. What we DO NEED from these 'voluntary religious organisations' is their money.

That would include the hundreds of millions they pocketed by selling off property to speculators during the bubble, not to mention the many millions they trousered from the proceeds operating forced labour gulags (Magdelene launderies and other similar "industrial" prisons).

Oh, and there were the "donations" from all those middle class families, many American, who paid over wodges of cash to get nice healthy white babies that the she-devils stole from defenceless girls and young women. Not to mention the fact that the egregious wealth of the bloated Roman Catholic Church has come straight out of the pennies handed over by the poor, the property willed to the church by poor idiots nearing death by way of "buying their way into heaven".

The Criminal Assets Bureau could and should spend the next 10-20 years examining the ill-gotten gains of this profoundly, unfixably corrupt institution and seeking to recover as much as possible to compensate its hundreds of thousands of victims and families, not to mention reimbursing the State for having forced it to spend around 150 million euros simply trying to get answers that Rome could have provided at any time.

Shame on all concerned. And double shame on the dupes who continue to prop up this rotten edifice by supporting it and defending the indefensible. Where, oh where is your humanity?

C77  Posted: 29/07/2011 21:56

With no money left in the coffers, you have to ask should we refuse the help of the voluntary religious organisations?  Thats like refusing the fire brigade when your house is on fire.

As for tarring all with the one brush, not a good idea.

Anonymous  Posted: 29/07/2011 11:49

bUT c77, in allowing the church to run hospitals you ARE imposing their ideologies on others. Wwhere exactly did I mention abortions? Nowhere. You are reading that into my post based on YOUR implications not mine. Do you really think abortion is easy for anyone? Indeed there a wide rage of contraceptive option and sterilisations and it this healthcare right which was DENIED to women for years when religious were allowed to meddle in healthcare which had absolutely NOTHING to do with them. By the way, I was in hospital in the 70'S which was not run by or involved any religious order and it was immaculate, there were no hospital acquired infections.

zebedee  Posted: 29/07/2011 11:00

C77 - were those pristine white sheets and bed linen cleaned in the Magdelene laundries?

So many very good and accurate comments here. If you disagree with them, you're simply doing the old Irish 'head in the sand' and showing your ignorance.

The Catholic church has no place running hospitals, schools or any other 'public necessity or service'. For want of repeating some of the comments here, it's time they were brought to account and forced to provide compensation for the disgusting damage for which they are responsible, not only in commiting, but covering up, continually denying and actign beyond the law.

Ireland, for too long has allowed people in positions of power to abuse it and even when discovered, get away without facing real consequences. This culture is in a large part derived from the influence and example of the catholic church. They have held Ireland back in so many ways, it's time to end it once and for all.

It is long overdue for the church to be removed from influencing the running of peoples lives here, (less from those who choose to attend their churches and follow the religion). Abusers and those within who stood by or covered-up should be brought to justice and punished severely. Perhaps some new 'old style' laundries and work houses should be opened and they could serve out the rest of their lives there. Heck, you could privatise them and it wouldn't even cost the state money to run them.

Zebedee

C77  Posted: 28/07/2011 16:14

In answer to ANONYMOUS.  When I wrote in this I was referring to the hygiene aspect, nothing to do with the medical ethos.

You mentioned the fact that women should be allowed have abortions. Do you not think that is an easy solution to a careless act.  If a couple want to have intercourse there are so many contraceptive devices and pills, they would make your head spin.  Prevention is better than "cure"

Battle  Posted: 28/07/2011 16:00

Jamie, there is perfectly good 'Incitement to Hatred' legislation on our statute books. An ideal place to start would be to prosecute this collar-wearing thug for his outrageous comments regarding An Taoiseach. The astonishing lack of respect these clerics have for our democratically elected representatives is breathtaking...

I can only suggest that if that's how they feel, they should all feck off back to Rome and leave Ireland to find its way as a REPUBLIC, free at last from their medievalism, secrecy, corruption, outrageous and puerile sexual obsessions and intractable condescension. Missin' you already!

Jamie  Posted: 28/07/2011 14:46

Battle, turns out you were right, they can sink lower. A priest in Louth has compared Enda Kenny to hitler because he criticized the Vatican!

leen  Posted: 28/07/2011 12:45

There is going to be another set of rules to PROTECT children from priests. My own view would be a very simple way of protecting our children. KEEP THEM AWAY FROM THE CLERGY. It is impossible to select the good from the bad as the ones who comitted the crimes "and crimes they did commit" were ptotected by all others from the highest down. How dare they walk about in their dresses and pink hats and look down their noses at our government and laws of our country.  They should all be behind bars for comitting such henious crimes against our children.

Anonymous  Posted: 28/07/2011 12:01

Battle, Witofine, Caet and Jamie, I agee entirely. Theistic ideologies have NO place in the sphere of medicine. The ONLY focus of the church is having in their RIDICULOUS postion in healthcare is CONTROL, to have twisted control over the bodies and thus lives of independant automous people. Unless a person is a medically qualified, scientifically educated Dr or Nurse, they have no business involving themselves in medical care. After all, would you let a circus clown run a school? The notion that a non-medically qualified priest sat on the board of a MATERNTIY!! hospital and can use his brainwashed non-medical ideology to influence the care which a woman gets is frankly nothing short of demented. If a person wants a priests opinion, they can consult him in a church - not have him meddle and control the lives of independent autonomous persons which he has NO ethical right to do.

Peter, If a patient has gangareen in a couple of toes - is a medically ignorant person permitted to consult a religious text to influence his care? NO - in the same way the church should not be allowed to control medical care.

C77 - The religoius orders knew how to run hospitals did they? When they denied women medically necessary c-sentions and destroyed their bodies with medieval symphisiotomies? When they denied contraception to women who's next pregnancy would be fatal? When they denied sterilsation operations to women who had more children than they could care for? You call THAT knowing how to run a hospital? DELUDED at best.

Jamie  Posted: 28/07/2011 10:27

Aemilian, the catholic church wasn't founded by Jesus Christ, it's completely man made with man made rules. There's plenty of other non catholic religions which include Jesus. Is there any reason why the church should run out hospitals? They have shown throughout history that they abuse any power they have. I see no reason to give then any more.

C77  Posted: 28/07/2011 04:32

When our hospitals were run by the religious orders, we never had the

problems we have now.  Okay I do remember the bed sheets and covers

were so tight I could hardly breathe but, the wards were so germ free,

floors shining, bedlinen snow white, everything was in pristine condition.

The religious orders know HOW TO run hospitals, give them back in to

their care, if they will accept them.

Peter 47  Posted: 27/07/2011 19:07

I thaught long and hard before I answered YES to the poll !

The question asked if ANY connection between healthcare and the catholic church should be maintained.

I have read the whole Cloyne report, and a few members of the clergy DID volounteer information to the authorities, they were not involving health care !

Also there was a lot of information which was not acted on by both Health boards and the Gardi.    We now have the HSE, if they will be ny better, and do we consider disbanding the Gardi, and the Justice system.

The Cloyne report has no mention of abuse of minors in medical institutions..........

Lest not to forget the GOOD orginisations which have religeous afiliations.. St V D Paul; Legion of Mary, The teaching hospitals for missionary Nuns, and doctors. The alcahol and drug clinics run by St John of God,. consider also the Order of Malta Ambulance Corps, and their Disabled trainiong workshops.......... to mention but a few.

Yes in context to Clyne, the majority of people who clasify them selves as church going Catholics, will answer NO to the poll, but not to forget, the people who have been through schools run by religeous orders, they know that there were allways the "FEW" collars and habbits who were suspect if not proven to have "designs " on children, some well founded,,,. but no more so than lay teachers with the same inkling towards the vulnerable child.

As a person who was abused by an employee of a hospital run by religeous, I can clearly diferenciate between good and bad.   BUT all should not be tarred with the same brush.

If a patient has gangareen in a couple of toes,,,. do you cut off his head ?

The Cloyne report was regarding the system , which was set out to pass on complaints of clerical child abuse to the Health boards and the Gardi, over a period of time. 12,000 reports were mentioned as discovered,  which were not reported, that is among the bniggest scandals,  equaly as bad as those who perpetrated the sexual acts,,,, but again when will there be any prosecution or time spent behind bars.

There are many volountary groups around the country who are supporting abused people, one of which is "Dignity 4 Patients" a national, group who get a minimum of funding, and do a fantastic job on behalf of people who have no individual voice to take their case to the notice of the courts.

They do need your support    www.dignity4patients.org

"All it takes for evil to prevail,. is for good men to do nothing"

Hold that thaught

Peter  47

Carol  Posted: 27/07/2011 18:04

No way should the Clergy EVER have control again, They ruled this land with pure terror . I never had much time for them, now, I loathe them. I dont need a Priest etc to talk with God, to think what they had been at for years? abusing children, cruelty etc, the list is endless. Let s get rid of them all...

Aemilian  Posted: 27/07/2011 17:34

I may be a lone voice but I am a very serious one in favour of the Catholic Church running our hospitals. The Enda speech was a good one in many respects but no credit to anybody for kicking a weakened object, though that object in this instance will outlive us all and will become strong again when those who have let it down are no longer in control. That will take time, much time, too much for me to see it as I am over eighty years of age. I agree entirely with a recent commentator on an Irish Times article, Sat 23 July, who said that Enda making that speech was similar to entering the ring with a Mohammed Ali affected with Parkinson's. The Catholic church was founded by Jesus Christ who showed us clearly that some of his close friends would betray him. They did that at the time and they have done it since. However, most of them are faithful to him and to their calling. It needs to be more widely known that child abuse by religious constitutes about five per cent of all child abuse. The remaining ninety-five per cent occurs in families, in care, in state institutions etc. Child abuse is a horrific crime and I do not condone it in any way. If Enda were not in a coalition situation I wonder would he have risked saying all that he did; I have my doubts.

Battle  Posted: 27/07/2011 16:41

@ Jamie

"Can they sink any lower?" You betcha! This lot are lower than the proverbial snake's belly. There is no person, ideal, moral or shred of decency so precious that the Roman Catholic Church wouldn't throw to the wolves to preserve even a mere thimbleful of its power and wealth. 

Don't forget: the only reason this lot aren't still operating the Inquisition, burning women as witches and operating torture chambers is that society, ie. secular society in the western world forced them to stop. Don't for one minute think any "reform" of the Catholic Church ever emanated from within.

It's far, far too rotten to reform itself. All we can do is protect our children, and society at large, from its malign influence. As for all the "good" priests and nuns, how many of them stood up against the criminality within the Church? How many resigned sooner than go along with the heinous crimes being perpetrated in their midst? How many went to the Gardai and reported this criminality? So much for our "good" priests then!

SCEPTIC  Posted: 27/07/2011 14:56

The Roman Catholic Church shouldn't be allowed to be in charge of a doghouse.

Jamie  Posted: 26/07/2011 15:35

I see the catholic church are trying to weasel their way out of it legally by saying priests technically aren't employees of the church. Can they sink any lower? Oh yes, they can. They say we're "over-reacting", and are surprised and disappointed with our reaction!

CAET  Posted: 26/07/2011 15:16

Absolutely agree with Witofire! What a splendid idea - and very appropriate - they are criminals and their assets should be seized - and in fact with the reputation the Church has given Ireland regarding the rape and torture of children and adults (Magdalene laundry slavery and torture), it is a wonder that we are even allowed in the European Union (given that Turkey is not granted entry because of its Human Rights history)! We need to collectively put our foot down on this evil collection of clerics and their protectors.

zebedee  Posted: 26/07/2011 15:03

Witofire

Exceptionally well said and extremely apt

Zebedee

Witofire  Posted: 25/07/2011 23:48

All assets of the Catholic Church should be seized just as the assets of criminals are seized by the Criminal Assets Bureau. The Catholic Church is a criminal organization because it was complicit in shielding its members from the law thus allowing them to continue with the rape and torture of children. The proceeds should be used to compensate surviving victims.

It is heartening to see that 88% of those polled are sophisticated enough to overcome the brainwashing of our childhood and see the clergy for what they really are and realize that it would be extremely dangerous to allow them to have any access to any aspects of our, or our children's' lives.

 

Battle  Posted: 25/07/2011 19:18

A good start, a damn good start, by Enda Kenny on the long overdue path of declaring Ireland to be a Republic in the true meaning of the word. 

Thomas Jefferson, one of the founding fathers of the US and among the key draughtsmen of its Constitution, knew a thing or two about religion and the state. Here are just a few of his observations. Pity Ireland's founding fathers were so spineless as to cave in to the clerics back in the 1920s:

“In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.”

“Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies”

“The Christian God is a being of terrific character - cruel, vindictive, capricious, and unjust”

“The loathsome combination of Church and State”

CAET  Posted: 25/07/2011 16:02

Religion should not have anything to do with healthcare - it is just another way of controlling treatment (sterilisations for example), to go along with the church's views on birth control. Not to mention the Pope's ban on the use of condoms - what kind of healthcare system would we be talking about? All Catholic run schools and hospitals (if there are any left), should either be privatised or run by the Government. The Pope in the Vatican sits on a huge amount of wealth - achieving what? Some of this money should be realised and paid out as redress to the victims of the Catholic Church.

zebedee  Posted: 25/07/2011 16:02

Enda Kenny's speech was great - alas, I fear it is just that 'a great speech'. There are many perpatrators of these terrible crimes and they are known, but yet how many have been prosecuted?

These people should be named, shamed, prosecuted and punished with punishments so severe they really do put 'the fear of god' into these people. Forget about human rights, these people gave up any such rights.

Lets' see some punishment and deterrents!

Zebedee

Jamie  Posted: 25/07/2011 11:35

Religion should be kept entirely seperate from the state and that includes healthcare. It finally looks like the cosy relationship between the catholic church and the state may finally end.

alo1  Posted: 25/07/2011 01:19

I must give praise to the leader of our government and what he had to say last week. its about time that someone in high standing told them their time is up in Ireland 

Witofire  Posted: 22/07/2011 22:12

No! The Catholic Church cannot be trusted with any role in society.

The priests who committed those heinous crimes against children were protected by their organization, the Catholic Church. Civil law takes precedence over Canon law and no clergyman should be protected under Canon law from investigation by the gardai. Just remember that those priests and brothers raped and tortured children in their care. The Taoiseach, Enda Kenny got it right when he called a spade a spade. Organized religion is the greatest con of all time. We need to wake up and realize what has been done to us.

 

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