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Our costly love-affair with alcohol
By Niall Hunter-Editor
A leading Irish expert on alcohol abuse has called for a complete ban on the advertising of alcohol and for the introduction of random breath testing on the roads.
Dr Joe Barry, specialist in public health medicine with the HSE and senior lecturer in public health at TCD, has also condemned the selling of cheap alcohol in off licences and has said the abolition of the Groceries Order will bring down the price of drink further and encourage young people to drink even more.
In an interview with irishhealth.com, Dr Barry said the most logical advertising restriction to introduce on drink would be to have no advertising at all.
"This is what needs to be done if we are really serious about tackling the problem of alcohol abuse in Ireland. A more modest restriction has been looked for whereby there would be no alcohol advertising on TV before 9pm to limit the exposure of young people to the advertising. That was opposed successfully by the drinks industry. But alcohol causes a lot of harm and the most logical thing is not to have any advertising of alcohol."
Dr Barry denied that such a blanket restriction would be too paternalistic and restrictive. "It really depends on how serious we are in dealing with the problem. We have had a huge increase in our consumption patterns, the industry is spending millions and millions urging us to drink more, so if we think that's OK obviously we should continue with advertising, but if we really want to try to do something about alcohol abuse we should look at measures that would try to reduce the impact, and one possible way is to restrict the promotion of alcohol."
Dr Barry said the restricting the promotion of alcohol at sporting and music events should also be looked at. "Every summer in Ireland there are many music festivals and most of them are sponsored by drink companies. I think at sporting events, particularly events that attract young people, there should be no promotion of alcohol”
He said restricting or withdrawing drinks sponsorship from sporting events would not adversely affect those events or the organisations running them. "We have one of the wealthiest economies in Europe and plenty of other companies out there could fill the gap."
Dr Barry said that as an immediately measure to tackle alcohol abuse, the Government, if it wanted to, could introduce random breath testing.
"It has been talking about doing this for eight years but nothing has been done."
He said the Government could put in structures that would deal with alcohol abuse in the same way as it has structures to deal with tobacco and illicit drugs. However, he claims the Government is not doing anything on this due to lobbying by the drinks industry.
"A lot of people, particularly the drinks industry, claim there is a tiny minority which abuses alcohol, when in fact there is a lot of other problematic alcohol usage in Ireland that is not linked to dependence per se but is causing problems. For example, drink driving. Most people who drink and drive are not alcoholics. The blood alcohol limit in Ireland is 80 milligrammes and the first Government Taskforce report on alcohol in 2002 recommended that this be reduced to 50. The drinks industry issued a minority report to prevent this happening and succeeded in stopping it."
Dr Barry, while agreeing there is a role for education and advertising in dealing with alcohol abuse, stressed that restrictive measures are needed as well.
"The Department of Health/ HSE would spend around 500,000 euro on an alcohol awareness campaign, but the different drinks companies will spend several million euro for each individual campaign promoting a brand of alcohol. So it is impossible for state-based awareness campaigns to compete with this. The only logical thing to do, therefore, is to restrict the capacity of the drinks industry to promote its products."
Dr Barry said he did not believe the drinks companies should have a role in educating the public about moderate alcohol consumption. "The drinks companies' main responsibility is to their shareholders. If you listen to the industry people when they are on business programmes on the TV they talk about the type of double-digit growth they are looking for, and they are clearly trying to get people to drink more.
"That is incompatible with trying to lessen the harm. Their job is to sell drink. My job is to point out what the difficulties are and what can be done to limit the harm. The Government should decide what side of this debate they want to support."
Dr Barry said it was disappointing that the GAA had decided to continue its sponsorship agreement with Diageo. "It’s certainly regrettable that the premier sporting organisation in the country on the one hand sets up a group to deal with alcohol abuse as an issue and on the other hand their marketing people are chasing Diageo for money."
Dr Barry says the price we are paying as a nation in terms of our increasing levels of alcohol abuse is clear. "For the decade of the 1990s we had a 41% increase in per capita consumption of alcohol, and that was by far the highest increase in Europe. Many reports have shown the harm that is being caused. It is a major problem in A&E; it is linked to an increase in young adult suicide; there has been an increase in sexually transmitted infections in younger people; there has been an overall increase in alcohol-related mortality;an increase in chronic liver disease; public order offences are increasing; we continue to have too many deaths on the roads, deaths through house fires; deaths through drowning-they have all increased.”
Dr Barry says he is against penalising people who turn up drunk in A&Es, or that they should be shifted out of A&Es altogether and dealt with separately.
"A lot of people who are drunk have health needs and these have got to be dealt with. Drunk people in A&Es can aspirate and vomit and die and many people who are drunk have serious dangers to their own health in the immediate term so I don't think you can shift them off. If they come into A&E they have got to be seen like any other patient. Also, I do not think that charging them extra would be a disincentive.
"I would suggest that we try and bring in measures that would lessen the number of people who are turning up with alcohol problems at A&E."
Dr Barry said the café bars proposal from Justice Minister Michael Mc Dowell would have been a good idea in principle. "But the proposal was not really about café bars but about the liberalisation of the availability of alcohol overall and the plan was to add café bars to 'superpubs'. The 'spin' that was put on it was that we would replace superpubs with café bars, but the way the proposed legislation was presented, that would not have happened. The bill was ultimately withdrawn because the publications objected to it for other reasons."
He feels that drink is now often sold too cheaply in off-licences and this encourages more young people to drink. “Drink has in recent years become a lot cheaper in off-licences, Pubs in one sense are now a lot safer places from the point of view of the community. The abolition of the groceries order on below cost selling is obviously going to bring the price down further. Calls to exempt alcohol from the order were ignored by the relevant Minister, Micheal Martin. This was disappointing in terms of his history of being very positive on public health issues while Minister for Health. Another key factor is it is easier for an underage person to get alcohol in an off-licence. It should also be pointed out that the relative tax on alcohol has decreased over the past 15 years."
Dr Barry said he believes the drinks industry and vintners have too much power and influence but he feels this will change. "The public is getting more angry. I think things will change. I think a lot of people do want something done on alcohol abuse and the Government has not latched onto that yet. Some opinion polls have shown that the majority of people want something done on this.
"When it comes to alcohol, I believe the Government is bowing too much to the power of the drinks industry and is not really taking on the measures that have been shown to be effective and that would reduce our alcohol abuse problem.
“Most adults drink, so policy changes will have to be implemented in a slightly different way than is the case with tobacco or illicit drugs. Most adults do not now smoke; most adults do not use illicit drugs, so in a way it is easier to have policies in these areas. Effective policies on alcohol will impact on all drinkers so there is a question about whether the population is prepared to pay the price in order to have a better relationship with alcohol. I think the proportion of people who are prepared to tolerate measures across the board is increasing”.
John(OHL33440) Posted:
30/05/2006 22:06 |
| So, yet another "leading Irish expert on alcohol abuse" demonstrates tunnel vision by calling for a blanket ban on the advertising of alcohol! Dr Joe Barry - specialist in public health medicine, no less - advocates draconian legislative measures to control the symptoms while ignoring the causes. And, anyway, Dr Barry, where did you get hold of the notion that an advertising ban would result in a measurable decrease in the incidence of alcohol abuse by youngsters, or by anyone else for that matter? The reality is that young folk (or not-so-young folk) addicted to binge drinking will binge anyway - advertising or no advertising. Dr Barry seems to be speaking for that class of purists who would if they could shut down the pubs, clubs, breweries and distilleries. No, Dr Barry, there's only one way to to solve the problem of alcohol abuse. So stop pussy footing around the core problem and ask one simple question: what causes that insatiable and chronic thirst? |
|
Fiona(fionarb) Posted:
31/05/2006 22:56 |
| As the licensed premises is and always has been the main social gathering point, and when children see their parents and parents' friends drink, often to excess, is it any wonder that the cycle is perpetuated? For those who say 'it wasn't that bad in our day' - total crap and they know it. 25 years ago early teens drank - we attended house parties, school and parish discos awash with alcohol (but not drugs), A&E departments were pumping kids' stomachs, taxis were kicking kids out for messing up their cabs etc. And you know what, the vast, vast, vast majority grew out of it as quickly as we joined in. You can't blame the chronic problems of the health service on the kids - but what any easy target. The road carnage is far more to do with allowing learner drivers to ferry their friends around - something absolutely forbidden in my day. And the street behaviour - try acting more like parents and if your 14 year old wants to go into Temple Bar - just say no. If you've done your job right, that will work, or don't have kids if you can't control them, simple as that. |
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Barry(COG26553) Posted:
01/06/2006 13:45 |
| If joe Barry thinks that a ban on Alcohol advertising is the solution to the drink problem then hes living on a different planet. The drink problem starts at home and is the responsibility of parents and teachers throughout the country. |
|
Anonymous
Posted:
01/06/2006 13:53 |
| Given that pubs are not allowed do happy hours anymore, why should supermarkets and off-licences be allowed to discount alcohol. There should be a ban on all price promotion activity on alcohol in supermarkets etc if the government is serious about tackling alcohol abuse. Multibuy offers and heavily discounted price offers just make alcohol more accessible and encourage people to purchase more. |
|
Anonymous
Posted:
01/06/2006 14:13 |
| Totally agree. No advertising at all of alcohol and restrictions on points of sale for everyone. It's easier to buy wine than to buy milk at the moment Small sacrifice for social drinkers but big payoff if there is lesser amount of drunkenness and suicide and abuse of A&E. People don't need alcohol so no ads |
|
Anonymous
Posted:
01/06/2006 14:43 |
| Should we not look at why alcohol abuse is so common, particularly among our young people? Is it all down to commercial advertising of alcohol products? What is it about the Irish psyche or culture that is so different as to predispose us to such abuse? Or is that too simple an explanation. Have we not neglected for too long the provision, promotion and funding of alternative activities or leisure pursuits. It does seem as if we have as a society short-changed our youth. |
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P(PRafter) Posted:
01/06/2006 15:43 |
| John, you seem to think you know more about the problem than Joe Barry does. Reading your "contribution" gives the opposite impression. Thank you. |
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Muriel Posted:
01/06/2006 16:32 |
| Granted there is something to be said for Drinks companies not advertsing before nine and not sponsoring youth oriented sports events but this guy makes it sound as tho' have the country are raging alcoholics who drink-drive, turn up drunk in A&E regularly and have chronic liver disease which is patently a total exageration. No amount of smoking is good for ou wheras scietific research indicates that a certain reasonable amount of alcohol has positive health benefits. If the drinks industries cannot advertise at all the industry will stagnate and there will be no incentive to produce new products anyway. Sure they banned alcohol entirely in the US at one point and all that meant was bootlegging, speak-easy's and bathtub brewed gin. John, if there's only one way to to solve the problem of alcohol abuse, then tell us what it is as you seem to know. It would solve a host of problems. It' has got nothing to do with thirst by the way. If i'M thirsty I drink water. Some people drink soft -drinks. Alcoholic drinks don't quench thirst as they dehydrate. Brandy for example would not quash thirst at all I think some people binge drink to relieve stress - as they have not learned any other coping mechanisms. I know others who do it to block things out - dull emotional and mental pain. Fiona hs an excellen pooint, those of us who drank to experiment, uickly learned out limit and now, for the vst majority of he time - we stick to it. Fiona, I'm not sure how old you are, but in my father youth - (and he's 65 now) he as a learnr driver ferried his pals around. The vast majority of accients on our oads are caused by speed in combination with youth. There were plenty of 14 and 15 year old who, when told 'no' to going to the local disco, went the a froiends for the evening and went to the disco from there. The important thing is communiation. A responsible parent with be reasonable and explain. Sadly, so many paets don't think before they have kids. Anonymous - people don't need steak or designer shoes eithr. Should we ban advertising those as well. By the ay, there is already a restrition on point of sale and it is up to the retailer to enforce the over 18 rule. |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
01/06/2006 22:16 |
| Oh, yes, Murial - I can tell you what motivates so many of us to drink to excess, alright. And, paradoxically, it does have a lot to do with thirst sensation - despite the fact that alcohol causes water loss! Here's an outline of the problem: deep down in the primitive regions of the brain is a nucleus (about the size of a pea!) called the hypothalamus, a major component of the brain's appetitive and motivational apparatus. The hypothalamus is critically involved in the maintenance of homeostasis - a state of balance or equilibrium in the body's cells. For instance, body fluids falling below the critical level necessary for life triggers signals in the hypothalamus: these signals generate a sensation of thirst, which in turn compels us to drink water, thus restoring homeostasis. Normally, we stop drinking as soon as we have taken in enough water. The problem in alcoholism is very simple: the hypothalamus functions, not as a reliable indicator of body fluid status, but as a generator of a chronic thirst sensation. So powerful is this need to drink that in extreme cases it can be classed as a full-blown compulsion. Why is it that the alcoholic cannot be satisfied with water, like the rest of us (well, most of the time, anyway!)? Thirst sensation, having lost connection with homeostasis, exists as a monster, autonomous, eventually getting out of control as a succession of binges entrenches the full-blown compulsion. In the end, thirst per se ceases to be the motivation. The result is alcohol addiction. |
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Muriel Posted:
02/06/2006 12:25 |
| Surely it's to do with an addicive personality s well. If alcohol were not avialable, the same people would become addicted to smoking, cannabis, shopping, coffee or something else. If the cells are out of balance and need water, hen people drink ater or a water based beverage, not alcolol. A child will choose water, milk or fruit juice, not whisky or Vodka., Wheras binge drinkers in their teens do it not out of thirst but a need to escape or block something, be it mental physical or emotional |
|
John(OHL33440) Posted:
02/06/2006 13:04 |
| Well, yes, of course many of us drink alcohol to escape mental pain! That's one of the attractions to alcohol in the first place. But the insatiable thirst - something purely psychical - varies in intensity with the degree of CNS stress; the greater the stress the greater the disconnection between thirst and homeostatic equilibrium. The 'addictive personality' is a highly stressed person. Don't confuse him/her with the normal person, who is free of CNS stress. Still a few of them left but they are an endangered species these days! |
|
P(PRafter) Posted:
02/06/2006 14:27 |
| John, 'have to say I haven't heard such simplistic rubbish in a long time. Alcohol abuse is a serious matter and coming up with laughable head-banger theories that no one in their right mind would take seriously would suggest you have given the problem no thought whatever. Thank you. |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
02/06/2006 17:45 |
| Alright, Paddy - let's hear your argument. And be specific, please! |
|
Muriel Posted:
06/06/2006 09:27 |
| John, thirst is not caused by stress - thirst is cause by the body neeeding water - the cells gettign out of balance as yuu mentioned earlier. Stress causes a number of things - accelerated heart rate, headache, quesy stomach etc but it dows not cause thirst. Anyone who is thirsty will choose water or a water based beverage. Anyone who seems to have an insatiable thirst really does need to see a Dr. as this is indicative of a serious problem such as diabetes or a kidney problem. John, not everyone who experiences stress (all of us these days, except maybe cisterian monks) have addictive personalities. Don't confuse the two. |
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P(PRafter) Posted:
06/06/2006 14:58 |
| I must be missing something here, Johnny; are you seriously suggesting we should treat the drivel you've posted as some kind of reasoned argument? Thank you. |
|
John(OHL33440) Posted:
06/06/2006 15:22 |
| Specifics, Paddy, please - SPECIFICS! |
|
Muriel Posted:
06/06/2006 15:32 |
| John, that was pretty specific. P wants to know if we should treat what you posted as a reasoned argument and to me, that is a very valid question. |
|
P(PRafter) Posted:
06/06/2006 16:50 |
| Thanks for the ray of clarity, Muriel. Johnny, I think something more than your brand of philosophy is required when attempting to make a realistic comment on what is a complex and difficult problem. Anyone who thinks the question of alcohol abuse can be summed up in a couple of paragraphs of daft rhetoric needs their head examined. How\'s that for specificity! Thank you. |
|
John(OHL33440) Posted:
06/06/2006 19:48 |
| Alright, you win! So, congratulations, Paddy - you have won a phyrric victory! |
|
P(PRafter) Posted:
07/06/2006 20:09 |
| (Sigh!)Johnny, what can I say? This isn't *about* point-scoring! It's to do with differing views on alcohol abuse and its many adverse effects. Your scornful dismissal of points raised in the report seemed to point to a lack of awareness of the problem. Your follow-up posts, mired in pseudo-scientific clap-trap, indicated a flippant approach. Make no mistake, alcohol abuse has grown to such an extent that our society itself is threatened. The full consequences to health of the binge-drinking phenomenon will not become apparent for some time; when they do, our already beleaguered Health Service will implode. Legalising cannabis now will have little effect in the short-term, in the long-term it has potential to reduce alcohol consumption to a fraction of what it is now. Science is close to discovering that medical and recreational consumption of cannabis can have positive health effects on users, 'something I've suspected for over thirty years. Alcohol will continue its rampage until an alternative legal drug becomes available. People have an innate inclination to drugs which alter their perception of reality. A drug-free society has never existed anywhere, at any time! Thank you. |
|
John(OHL33440) Posted:
08/06/2006 13:21 |
| As for my flippant and scornful approach - you are right on that point! The ruling elite in Irish society long adopted a policy of burying their heads in the sand and pointing the finger at scapegoats like myself. I make no excuse for showing my utter contempt for the lot of them - politicians, church leaders, the top echelons of the medical profession included. And I will continue in the same vein for as long as they continue to bleed the rest of us. But I stand by the stress-reaction hypothesis. And I challenge you - and anyone else who dismisses it to put up a rational criticism of ANY SPECIFIC POINT. So put your brains where your big mouth is and stop this pernicious vague sniping. |
|
John(OHL33440) Posted:
08/06/2006 14:03 |
| And, Paddy, - do you know what a phyrric victory is? Your condescending tone suggests you don\'t! |
|
LifeHandle Posted:
08/06/2006 14:51 |
| The connection between the hypothalamus isn\'t as spurious as being suggested here. The hypothalamus is the executive aspect of out autonomic nervous system which implements our stress mechanism. Tbe problem with alcohol is that it has a temporary benefitical effect on stress most probably due to the effects it has on the hypothalamus. The problem with the hypothalamus is that in the relatively safe environment we currently live in, our stress mechanism is activated by self-esteem and economic threats. The upshot is that self-esteem issues or economic pressures (like saving for or paying a morgage) will induce stress and consequently encourage some/many people to drink too much. John |
|
Amanda Posted:
08/06/2006 15:04 |
| A victory achieved at great or excessive cost. Could you explain John, why you believe P has achieved a victory at great or excessive cost? |
|
ANON Posted:
08/06/2006 15:07 |
| As a 29 year old recovering Alcoholic I believe alcohol advertising should absolutely be banned the same way cigarette advertising was banned. I have not had a drink in over four years and have no problem with social drinkers or public houses but when I first stopped drinking the adds nearly killed me, the cravings I had after seeing an add on tv were unbearable, even to this day when I see a bulmers add I can nearly taste it, the advertisers glorify alcohol but they forget to mention that is is a deppressant and 1 in 3 familys in Ireland have an alcoholic living with them, they also forget to mention that according to the world health organisation alcoholism is one of the worlds top three killer diseases ( FACT ) that children are hungry and wives are beaten cars are crashed and innocent people are killed as a result of alcohol consumption. The adds just program people into thinking they are having a beautiful refreshing drink. |
|
P(PRafter) Posted:
08/06/2006 16:43 |
| Yes, Johnny, I know what a "Pyrrhic victory" is. Your spelling of the term might suggest you're the one with the deficit. As I said, it's not about victory, costly or otherwise. Thank you. |
|
Louise Posted:
08/06/2006 16:53 |
| I understand what ANON is saying so well: those Bulmer's adverts are totally seductive. All booze ads are seductive. But it's the same thing as adverts for, say, chocolate. Apart from the Chocolate Orange adverts, you never see an overweight person indulging, just as you never see a person buckled drunk advertising alcohol. As for the thirst/stress/mortgage repayments 'thang' about alcohol abuse. No, I don't buy it. I drank like a fish for years, and it had zero to do with thirst for God's sake! It has to do with getting as totally out of my head as I possibly could so that the real world receeded as far away from me as possible thanks very much. As for all societies since the beginning of time using drugs of some sort to alter their state of mind: very true. Just as the abuse of drugs didn't start today or yesterday. What's good for the goose can kill the gander. I firmly believe alcoholism is as much a spiritual disorder as it is physical, mental or emotional. Maybe that's why you have a high incidence of alcoholism amongst nations or peoples who have been disenfranchised: the Irish, the Australian Aborigines, the Native American Indians. |
|
John(OHL33440) Posted:
08/06/2006 18:09 |
| Ah, Paddy, how revealing it is that you should have to pick up on my typing error! I have your measure now that you refused my request for a valid rational criticism of any point I make in any of my postings. You seem to belong to that class which feels compelled to denounce anything and everything they object to - even when they can't find a valid reason for their intransigence. It's something we all are familiar with from our days attending Catholic schools - the black-and white mindset that damns to perdition anyone who expresses views unwelcome views. The victims were called heretics in days gone by even though many of them went on to make major contributions to the advancement of Western civilisation! |
|
John(OHL33440) Posted:
08/06/2006 18:17 |
| Amanda - if Paddy and his school succeed in stifling debate, rest assured the excessive cost will become clear in the long term. The warning signs are here already. I have just read that the incidence of some cancers can be expected to increase dramatically in the future. And I have just read that the Irish spend more on alcohol than any other nationality in the EU. And what are our leaders doing? Among other stratagems they are very keen on Awareness Days! |
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LifeHandle Posted:
08/06/2006 19:14 |
| The reference to morgages was made in relation to percieved threats of any nature. A percieved threat will activate our stress mechanism. The relation between stress and alcohol is well known. You mention wanting to get out of your head. That would suggest that while not drunk, you felt anxious or inadequate in some way, and alcohol dissolved these feelings. The relationship I was drawing was between stress and dirnking, and not thirst and drinking. |
|
Kevin Posted:
09/06/2006 01:38 |
| Louise, It makes sense that alcoholism is as much a spiritual problem as mental, physical and emotional ones. Maybe that is where all this binge drinking is coming from. People are confused particularly with the Catholic Church disintegrating and there isn't any solid foundation here for people to cling to. This generation at the moment are if you like in the height of it because us parents have become very wary of the church. But nothing has replaced this disintegration and we seem to be looking around as though we don't know what to do. So I think that there is a spiritual hunger around and this may explain the rise in all forms of drugs. |
|
fifi Posted:
09/06/2006 09:02 |
| Louise is correct. Drinking excessively is a form of escapism for those who do not want to be in this world or the problems associated with it. |
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Amanda Posted:
09/06/2006 10:36 |
| Oh for goodness Sake John, we spend more on alcohol than any EU country becuase it is four times dearer here than in any other EU country and we do not brew for out own consumption like parts of England, France, Spain, Italy, Greece and possibly more. That fact itself should be perfectly obvious. |
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P(PRafter) Posted:
09/06/2006 12:14 |
| Axehandle, or whatever your name is, you sound so like Johnny, it's uncanny! 'Anyone else notice? Thank you. |
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Mary Posted:
09/06/2006 14:03 |
| P., I think his name as life handle. I do think he has a point with regard to stress, some pople if they are prone to addiciton will seek to escape their worries in drink and feel it helps them relax. Of course there are two forms of stress. Adrenal related - fight or flight, which is essentially short-lived or cortisol related which over the longer term triggers chronic effects in the body. |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
10/06/2006 09:47 |
| Louise - your drinking "had zero to do with thirst for God's sake." Alcohol causes dehydration. The more you drink the more dehydrated you become. If your drink is 5% alchhol, the remaining 95% is mostly water, which compensates for the water loss caused by the alcohol. But you are a rare breed indeed if you can drink alcohol like a fish without experiencing thirst! |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
10/06/2006 17:20 |
| Interesting that so many contributers to this thread fail to see a link beween thirst sensation and alcoholism. In fact, look closely at anyone who is not alcoholic but has the predisposition (the addictive personality!) and you will see thirst sensation undergoing all sorts of transformations. I refer to PSYCHICAL thirst - the displaced excess of physiological thirst sensation left over after (and even more insatiable than physiological thirst) the body fluid balance has been restored by drinking water. Displacement is the key concept here. We all know that many of history's villians were (and continue to be) bloodTHIRSTY monsters. We don't always recognise this displaced psychical thirst in ourselves - one reason being that it lurks unseen in the midst of a tangle of negative emotions such as hate, rage and, yes, furious denial! Psychical hunger undergoes the same kind of displacement. Greed is a good example. The greedy shareholder is HUNGRY for money! And his/her hunger is, like thirst for blood, insatiable. Problem is that many unsung villians never manage to gratify their hunger for money or their thirst for blood. So, poor souls, they drown their sorrows in alcohol! |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
11/06/2006 18:38 |
| Help me out, Amanda - what fact should be perfectly obvious? |
|
John(OHL33440) Posted:
11/06/2006 18:44 |
| Kevin - the Catholic church "disintegrating"! Good news if it is but I can't see it. Maybe I'm missing something! |
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Amanda Posted:
12/06/2006 11:26 |
| Read my post again John - what I stated in that post was perfectly obvious. Compare Ireland today to Ireland of the 1950\'s the stranglehold of power of the institution of the Catholic church has disintegrated. That is another obvious fact. |
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Kevin Posted:
12/06/2006 13:02 |
| But John, the attendences at mass are after plummeting compared to what they used to be. The scandels in the church have made literally everyone question everything about the church. Nobody seems to have escaped this and their faith has indeed been shook. Who wants to go for the priesthood today? I'm sure that there was always a questioning of some parts of the Catholic Church before but for the majority of people it had a steadying influence on them. It literally fed them and satisfyed their thirst. So I believe that alcohol is not a physical thirst but a spiritual thirst. The increase in these type of drugs I think are an attempt to reach the mind of God again. Most people associate God with a loving being and that is the way they want to feel. Some of them though are under the illusion that the more they drink alcohol we'll say the more they will feel this connection. I think it is all as simple as this. |
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Mary Posted:
12/06/2006 14:27 |
| A spiritual thirst perhaps but not a physical one. Alcohol dehydrates. Thirsday people do not crave alcohol. As for John's talk about people being "blood-thirsty", this descends into the relam or monsters, myths and nonsense. |
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P(PRafter) Posted:
12/06/2006 15:05 |
| I agree, Mary, Johnny\'s long post is seriously weird. I haven\'t a clue what he\'s on about. Thank you. |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
12/06/2006 16:57 |
| Mary, have you not noticed displaced thirst/hunger in the Roman Catholic Eucharist? Roman Catholics cannot literally gratify their psychical thirst for the founder's blood; so they regress to a symbolic substitute! What's more the Church teaches that wine and wafer are LITERALLY transformrd into blood and flesh!Is that nonsense too, Mary? |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
12/06/2006 17:14 |
| Kevin - Yes, but where is the disintegration? The very least I would expect to see would bw somthing like churches closing their doors, wholesale resignation of priests, new religions taking hold, new-fangled cults gaining in popularity. I think you overstate - 'decline' might be a better word. |
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Mary Posted:
12/06/2006 17:41 |
| wine and wafer are LITERALLY transformed into blood and flesh Yes,John it is nonsense. But in my view, but in my view the vast majority of organised religion is just that. Some well meaning and merely symbolic. Others controlling and downright dangerous. Sotel me now - are you somehow blaming symbolism within the catholic religion for alcoholism??? |
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Kevin Posted:
13/06/2006 02:04 |
| Yes, John, maybe decline would be a better word and this decline is making people nervous whether they like to admit it or not. Thankfully there isn't other cults at the moment but I think that people are choosing to discover God for themselves. But some people cannot handle going alone like this by themselves and preferred something more organised and structured. Sometimes we don't help the likes of these people with all our differing opinions at the moment. These people feel safer following a certain belief and leave it at that. They don't want to start inquiring because it takes them out of their safety net and is an area that we need to be very sensitive with. Many of the youngsters growing up today have no structure what-so-ever to go on because us new parents are moving away. But the youngsters can feel this inside in them and have to be able to express this some way. I believe that they are expressing it through alcohol. |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
13/06/2006 13:25 |
| Mary - at last we agree on something! Thought I would go further any say that ALL religions are nonsense - pre-rational survivals, kept alive by the madness and ambitions of their ruling elites. It is in the pre-rational realm that we can see symbolism as the symbol dominant. The symbol is to pre-rational thinking what the concept is to the rational mind. But, no, I do not say that symbolism causes alcoholism - that would be nonsense! What I do hold is that the psychical hunger/thirst that energises symbolic canibalism is capable of infinite displacement on to an infinity of symbols and substitutes. Alcohol is a substitute in that it goes some way to relieve the mental pain associated with CNS stress. Guilt and anxiety prominent among them. |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
13/06/2006 13:31 |
| Kevin - the safety net you mention was all pervasive when I was growing up in the Clonmel area in the 50s. Anti-intellectualism was ramapant. We're paying a high price now! |
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Mary Posted:
13/06/2006 14:19 |
| "psychical hunger/thirst that energises symbolic canibalism is capable of infinite displacement on to an infinity of symbols and substitutes" - Can you please explain what this is? Ahhhh - so you DO think Alcohol is a substitute in that it goes some way to relieve the mental pain. ee agree on something else so. I don't know if it's all stress related, it may be to do with anxiety which you mention as well. I'm not sure about guilt tho, as an adult it's not something I generally experience any more. Ah yes, John, my father had a theory that the priests which taught in the schools did not want you to know "all the book", i.e. know too much because then you might quote it back at them. In other words, if you thought you knew as much as they presumed they did, then they could no longer attempt to use education at a form of social control. |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
13/06/2006 16:58 |
| Mary - Central nervous system stress seems to vary from one person to another - from mild to moderate to extreme. The mildly stressed person has minimal disruption of homeostasis. So it is difficult to say for sure how big a part psychical thirst sensation plays in his/her attraction to alcohol. What you may notice about many mildly stressed people is this: they drink alcohol but only for as long as they are enjoying the drink. They'll stop when they feel they have had enough. They know their limits. Most of them haven't got the head for binge drinking! Most alcoholics belong in the highly stressed group. The displacement problem: you'll have to be patient here - this is a vast subject! Cannibals don't have to displace. The cannibalistic serial killer, for instance, becomes fixated to such a degree that he is compulsion-driven to kill and devour human flesh again and again. That fact alone will give you a fair idea of the awsome power of that lurks behind symbolic cannibalism. And that power has its zenith at the pathological extreme of CNS stress. You may wonder how such a monster ever managed to find a home at the very heart of the Roman Catholic liturgy! We are entering the realm of intellectual taboo now. Are you sure you want to know more? |
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Mary Posted:
13/06/2006 17:39 |
| John, thewhole country with the exception of teetotalers and alcoholics, stop drinking when they stop enjoying it, are you therefore saying that teetotalers don't experience stress. I dispute this absolutely. And the rest of us only experience mild stress. This is think is highly disputable also whereas alcoholics have high stress? I do not get what you are talking about in relaiton to "symbolic canabalism". How doEs this relate to alcoholism? How do you belive it relates to stress? Are you saying that canibals are extremely stressed people? I wouldn't say their victims are partiucularly relaxed! How do you honestly make out this relates to Roman Catholicism? |
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Kevin Posted:
13/06/2006 22:13 |
| I can't make head or tail of this conversation. I think I'll move to an easier alcohol topic. Adios. |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
14/06/2006 14:19 |
| Teetotals often are very stressed people who react against a strong urge to drink and are fearful they may not control the urge if they start. They are people who swing to one extreme because they fear the opposite! You ask how symbolic cannibalism relates to alcoholism. IT DOESN'T! I was attempting to answer the question you asked in your earlier posting! The symbolic cannibalism you see in the Roman Catholic Eucharist is a DISPLACEMENT ON TO SUBSTITUTES of the same cannibalistic compulsion found at the root of many sacrificial religions where human victims are sacrificed and their blood drunk by priests - the Aztecs, for example. May I conclude this exchange as I can see it getting hopelessly bogged down. Meanwhile, if you want to understand the relation between cannibalism and sacrificial religion, I suggest you begin by studying the basic principles of synaptic transmission. You'll find them in any good neuroscience textbook. Don't give up, Kevin! Buy yourself a good textbook, too. |
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Mary Posted:
14/06/2006 16:47 |
| So Teetotals often are very stressed people who react against a strong urge to drink and are fearful they may not control the urge if they start. They are people who swing to one extreme because they fear the opposite! - I would agree. |
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Kevin Posted:
14/06/2006 23:26 |
| I would disagree entirely about teetotalers. I tried alcohol when I was young but every time I put it down my throat I felt I was putting poison down there. The best move I ever made was going up to the counter and ordering a lucozade for myself. At last I could be myself again and it felt great. I don't want any of those queer urges that go with alcohol. Without it I can be myself totally and have my wits about me which is the most important thing to have. There's nothing better in a pub then to have a few teetotallers around in case anything goes wrong. I just wish there were more of them at times. However I do love a cigarette. |
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Mary Posted:
15/06/2006 10:14 |
| Each to his own Kevin but I do know several teetotalers who are teetotals simply becuase they are afraid if they do start drinking that they won't be able to control it. I don't know about you but I have been talking a drink from thime to time for the last 15 years or so and I have never had any of hese "queer urges" you speak of. Do a lot of drinkers get them? Thankfully John, you seem to have gotten rid of the notion of tying cannabalism and religion in with the disease of alcoholism. |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
15/06/2006 11:51 |
| Mary - will you please stop provoking me! I haven't "got rid" of the notion of linking alcoholism with cannibalism. Here's a little anecdote from down our way long ago that may help you to get off my back: we had a parish priest who was without doubt the reacting type of alcoholic I mentioned earlier. Every Sunday morning he would mount the altar and deliver the stock diatribe against the demon drink. A very holy man was our pp. He loved to get behind the wheel of his little care and drive around the country roads of the Golden Vale. One spot in particular was a great favourite of his: he would park on the verge and just sit there reading his prayer book for hours on end. Years later, one of the brothers, out prowling the fields with the .22 (rabbits were a favourite dish then!). He came across a big pile of empty whiskey bottles just inside the hedge where the pp used to do his praying! So here is a classic case of swinging to one extreme and becaming a teetotelar denouncing the drink at every mass! But he couldn't control the demon. Little by little and year by year the insatiable thirst gained the upper hand. In the end, he became a full-blown lonely alcoholic. Yet, he still went on delivering his Sunday denunciations 'till the day he died! He could not bring himself to admit his total failure as a teetotaler! How many of our priests today find themselves the same downward slippery slope? Now, all of them indulge in symbolic cannibalism at the heart of the Eucharist. No, I'm not saying that every one of these priests harbours a latent thirst for actual cannibalism. What I can assert without fear or favour is that symbolic cannibalism is an INSTITUTIONALISED deflection on to substitutes of the latent cannibalism lurking at the heart of Roman Catholicism. Cardinals, bishops, priests - all have their degree of it, whether it be mild, moderate or extreme! Symbolic cannibalism became institutionalised for the very simple reason that the holy architects of the liturgy could not bring themselves to renounce entirely their pound of holy flesh and their swig of blood. Hence, a major symptom is elevated to virtue!! |
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Kevin Posted:
15/06/2006 12:51 |
| Well that is a new one for me. I have never come across anyone who was afraid to start drinking because they were afraid that they couldn't control it. How did you come to that conclusion when the majority of those people didn't even try drink in the first place? |
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P(PRafter) Posted:
15/06/2006 13:00 |
| These days, "queer urges" would be taken to mean homosexual urges but Kevin may mean something else. I'm puzzled too! Thank you. |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
15/06/2006 16:04 |
| Now, Mary, if your analytic faculty is up to speed and you are not in denial, you may rightly hold that the precise nature of the interaction between alcoholism and cannibalism (symbolic or otherwise) is difficult to pin down. But there is a link: both the cannibal and the lapsed teetotaler(like our PP!) have a very high degree of CNS stress! |
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P(PRafter) Posted:
15/06/2006 17:05 |
| You seem to be an inexhaustable source of junk-intellectualism, Johnny, but keep it coming anyway; it's entertaining and cringe-making at the same time. The stiltedness of your "style" is a hoot, too. Thank you. |
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Mary Posted:
21/06/2006 14:10 |
| Gosh John, I'm not provoking anyone - relax, nor am I "on anyones' back". Your anecdote is not unusal. An awful lot of alcoholics are in denial in the initial stages of the disease. It's probably worse for someone who is celebate, as it is, I imagine a lonely life anyway and even more so when you are addicted. I doubt the man was thirsty. Whiskey is a fine drink but it wouldn't quench my thirst. I prefer water for that. The "cannabilism", you refer to, is ONLY symbolic. No-one actually eats anyone else's flesh or blood. They eat wafer and drink water & wine. Why do you imagine tho' that this symbolism would be required because the centre of the catholic organisation has canibalism lurking in it? |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
21/06/2006 15:44 |
| No, I am not saying that a cannibalistic cabal lurks at the heart of the papacy and nowhere else! A cannibalistic urge (sometimes amounting to a full-blown compulsion) lurks deep down in the psyche of everyone who has had a few frustration-rages in his/her infancy. Onset of the first frustration-rage disrupts the infant\'s suckling reflex by initiating its transformation into an enraged biting that has nothing to do with teething. The greater the number of rages throughout infancy, the more this enraged biting takes the breast itself (as opposed to its contents) as an object to be devoured. How many mothers do you know who in desperation gave up breast feeding because the infant bit her nipple again and again? Nipple-biting is a sure sign that a series of rage reactions has disrupted normal sucking and ushered in a premature and pathological biting. |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
21/06/2006 16:05 |
| Mary, I keep on saying it but you just won't pay attention! Please - try to make a distinction between actual physiological thirst, the kind we all experience when water in the body's cells falls below a certain level. Drinking water quenches this thirst. Then there's the insatiable variety - the cannibalistic excess established by the frustration-rages, initially finding expression in breast biting and later, among other things, in actual cannibalism and metaphorical expression. |
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Mary Posted:
21/06/2006 16:26 |
| I get your point about biting. I wonder what it is tho', that causing the the frustration rages in babies. Has that ever been investigated. Back to the point about alcohol tho. I ampaying attention perfectly and would undersanfd as such if only you would be clear. I know that actual physical thirst is but it was you who said that stress causes the homeostatic balance in the bodies cells to be altered and thus for thirst to occur and that this somehow causes alcoholism.. Okay, these frustration rages cause infants to bite and I can understand how a person might extrapolate this to cannabalism somehow but, and I ask this again - how does this relates to the disease of alcoholism (alcohol addiction). |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
21/06/2006 16:47 |
| No, as far as I know nobody has ever investigated frustration-rages - no doubt because nobody understood the possible connection between these rages and the etiology of chronic CNS stress. The relationship to alcohol abuse: the neuronal pathways that carry hunger/thirst signals to the hypothalamus become hyperpotentiated by repetition of the rage-reaction - that is, the pathways become so sensitive that the activate spontaneously in extreme cases and INDEPENDENTLY OF THE FLUID STATUS OF THE BODY'S CELLS. This is the case with both hunger and thirst circuits. So you often see hyperphagia as well as alcoholism. |
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P(PRafter) Posted:
21/06/2006 17:09 |
| Having read the latest posts, I thought I might need counselling. 'Thought too, we were talking about drinking alcohol, *not* blood. At any rate, I think I'll have to lie down for a while. Thank you. |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
21/06/2006 19:50 |
| Paddy, read my last post again - it is about alcoholism! Odd that you should read 'blood' where I wrote 'alcohol'!! |
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Mary Posted:
22/06/2006 08:39 |
| By hyperphagia - I asume you are referring to binge eating. So, the frustration rages, which trigger the biting, upset these neural pathways and trigger them to activate spontaneously and can cause binge eating or susceptibility to it. But how does this relate to alcoholism. While babies and children eat and drink, and some babies breastfeed. Babies, do not afterall, drink alcohol. Is it becuase, when these stress surges occur, people having discovered that a drink makes them relax, turn to drink to ease the stress?? |
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Carol Posted:
22/06/2006 08:45 |
| I have never heard such nonsense in my life about equating a baby accidentally biting their mothers breast - to cannibalism. The majority of women give up breastfeeding at 6 months - becuase they go BACK TO WORK. Those who continue beyond 6 months give up when the baby gets their first couple of teeth becuase at that point the child is ready to move onto solids and no longer needs to breastfeed exclusively and much of the time (as they are now walking by that point anyway) the child looses interest in breastfeeding. A child DOES bite on things when they start teething. This is a unversally recognised fact. Also, as any lactation consultant will tell yu - or even a mother who has breatfed a couple of chiildrne. when a cchild gets teeth, the nature of their latch changes and so it is easir for biting accidents to occur. |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
22/06/2006 14:59 |
| Now, Mary, we really have reached a crossroads! So, once again, I must ask you to read up on the basic principles of synaptic transmission. Without that modicum of basic knowledge you will never answer the question you pose (How frustration relates to alcoholism) and you will end up becoming one of those tiresome 'researchers' who base their views on what others (usually some 'authority' or other) tells them. But I will leave you with a clue: the answer to your question gives you a foothold in the origin of a faculty unique to homo sapiens: PSYCHE! But you need another rare faculty to spot the answer: INSIGHT! So, there's you test. If your response tells me that you have a degree of insight, we can make progress. If you fail the test - then you can join the swollen ranks of mediocre 'researchers' who for ever remain ON THE OUTSIDE TRYING TO LOOK IN and who have nothing of value to contribute. |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
22/06/2006 15:04 |
| Carol does your "any lactation consultant" know that the frustration-rages of infancy are stress reactions? Maybe you would like to ask him/her! |
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Carol Posted:
22/06/2006 16:41 |
| John, infants who bite, do not do so, generally becuase of frustration rages. |
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Anonymous
Posted:
22/06/2006 16:42 |
| John, why don't you start up your own website where you can discuss all your theories and where supposed researchers won't 'fail your test'. This is for people who just want to discuss alcohol. I'm going to make a wild guess here - nobody has a clue what you're talking about. If you want to continue here, can you speak in lay terms please! |
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Mary Posted:
22/06/2006 16:45 |
| John I do not have a scientific backgound of that nature so you will need to explain the basics of synaptic transmission - if you can. OF COURSE it's o do with the Phyche, the origins or addiction are in the mind becuase no-one needs alcohol (or tobacco or heroin or whatever). I'd be happy to try your test, IF you can answer the question I asked. Or ae you one of these tiresome people who poses a lot of questions they cannot understand peppered with jargon and then refuse to answer then. If you can anwer, you will have contributed something of value to this discussion. |
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P(PRafter) Posted:
22/06/2006 19:06 |
| Yes, Johnny, put a sock in it! Your parents, if they're listening, will I hope, take the keyboard away from you and give everyone a break. Thank you. |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
22/06/2006 19:31 |
| Anonymous, no, as a matter of fact, I don't want to continue here! And, yes, I had intended to set up my own website. But before I went to the expence and trouble, I wanted to run a test to see if the Irish people (down at the grass roots where I come from) would be interested in studying how brain and mind (psyche) interact - and maybe even to solve a few current problems along the way. Well, to put it mildly, my little survey was disappointing! So, no web site, after all! Mary - don't bother replying to this - but the answer to your question is simple: MEMORY! The alcoholic's insatiable thirst (just like the ravenous hunger of the binge eater) derives from CUMULATIVE effects on memory of many enraged experiences in his/her infancy. So, you see, the unfortunate alcoholic has a pathological memory (not conscious!) burdened by numerous traumatic experiences of past frustrations! He cannot esacpe his past! That's it in a nutshell. Thank you all for your time! John Doheny |
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Kevin Posted:
22/06/2006 21:23 |
| Hey, hold on a second John! Don't go for a while. I think I know where you are coming from. Maybe all addictions stem from this memory that you are talking about. Give us a chance to try and understand it will you? And maybe we could ask you to explain it a bit better as you go along. |
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P(PRafter) Posted:
22/06/2006 23:21 |
| Don't go, Johnny, I've gotten used to your verbosity! 'Don't know about the others, but I enjoyed the bit of banter too. The discussion will look pretty anorectic if you gather up the marbles and leave now. Thank you. |
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Mary Posted:
23/06/2006 10:12 |
| Actualy, I WILL reply. Sure the infant remembrs biting and the child may remember over-eating as a result of the stress triggered by frustration rages but they don't either conciously or subconciously, remember dinking alcohol bacause, as I said, babies don't drink alcohol. Could you please explain (finally) then what you mean exactly? |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
24/06/2006 12:34 |
| Kevin - bingo! Now you're motorin'! The neuron is like the proverbial elephant - it never forgets anything. Often, the hyper-sensitivity in one neuronal pathway can impose massive inhibition in another pathway. And if the inhibited pathway NORMALLY secretes a chemical such as an opiate (the brain makes its own opiates) the opiate shortfall experienced as a craving, which if indulged can end in addiction. I'm not sure, but I think I have read somewhere that alcohol many contain opiate-like substances! |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
24/06/2006 17:03 |
| Kevin - I don't know what happened to a key point in the previous posting - I must have deleted it by accident! Here it is: "So you can see how a CRAVING functons as memory; it relates present time (no matter how old you are!)to remotest infancy. And you can see how craving caused by a chemical defecit, can give rise to addiction. The same principal applies to hunger sensation: the frustration rages disrupt the normal leptin/ghrelin aspect of homeostasis. Here the memory function comes into play in the form of ravenous hunger, which as I emphasised above has nothing to do with physiological needs. And also, as I have grown weary of repeating, nobody can expect to understand this vital aspect of neuronal memory function without a good grounding in the basic principles of synaptic transmission and with special emphasis on what the neuroscientists call POTENTIATION. What - you don't know what that is? Don't ask me - buy yourself a textbook! |
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Mary Posted:
26/06/2006 13:54 |
| Ah, so there's an inhibited pathway which secretes an opiate? Is this a bit like dopamine? So the lack to this acts as a craving. You never mentioned this before. Now, you're becoming clearer. Then the lack-of-opiate triggers craving relates to the stress-reaction, cused by frutration rages in infancy? Do you know what potentiation is? If so, then suely you can explain it? |
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Kevin Posted:
26/06/2006 14:24 |
| John, Lets just look at the memory part only. You say that it works in present time right back to remotest infancy. Well, I would be inclined to think that it is working back further than infancy but that is a theory that I use in my life all the time. That's why there is a connection with our Creator and no matter how much we try to dismiss the thought of a creator it keeps popping up from time to time. I would put any craving down (in my simple language) to this. The craving to be as close as possible to this being. That is the whole reason that addiction exists in my mind. Everyone of us are finding some way to keep this connection and sometimes we go to extremes to keep it as in alcoholism. In my experience of alcoholics they have a thirst for this type of knowledge and I believe that there is a type of rage in not being able to acquire it. I have watched conversations with alcoholics very very closely. Talk about everyday matters and they are not interested but bring up the subject of God and there is a sudden huge interest. The other surprising thing about this conversation is that they tend to drink less while the conversation is ongoing. It has a weird calming effect on them and they become absorbed. |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
27/06/2006 17:07 |
| Kevin - Creationism!! What's a creationist doing in this thread? Is the Editor asleep, or is he a closet creationist like you? We really are plummeting the depths now! Clarification, please, Ed. |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
27/06/2006 17:14 |
| Mary - my apoligies - I should have made the point clearer. The opiate shortfall occurs in the INHIBITED pathway! |
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Mary Posted:
27/06/2006 17:53 |
| I imagine a creationist is as much entitled to post as anyone else. Kevin, do you have any back up for your theories? |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
28/06/2006 13:48 |
| Yes, I agree, creationists are entitled to be heard. The problem is that once you inject creationism into a biology-oriented thread, focus gets lost in the fog. Worse, we run the risk of relapsing into pre-rational thinking and pre-rational thinking all too easily gives rise to pre-rational medicine. Here's an illustration of what I mean: You'll remember - I think it was in 2002 - St Therese's skeletal remains ("relics") toured Ireland. And you'll also remember the crowds filing past the reliquary (bone box) at each of the many venues. How many of these devotees filed past the saint's remains hoping for a miraculous cure for one ailment or another? Most, if not all, of them! This is an example of pre-rational medicine at work on a national scale in 21st-century Western Europe. The danger is that people are losing faith in modern science-based medicine and in despair are beginning to regress to the pre-rational world of miracles. |
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Mary Posted:
28/06/2006 16:26 |
| Good Grief John do you really think hat all those people whilr filed past the bones of this lady, were hoping for some sort of miraculous cure for some ailment????? Personally I thought the whole process of sending someone bones around the country - either to church to to be stored in a museum as rather morbid (weird) and some might call it disrespectful but to really expect it to cure something?? That said every year as small child my Nan used to take me to a ceremony called the blessing of the throats or somesuch, I kid you not. A saint, by the name of St. Blaize was involved and it as supposed to protect one from sore throats!!! |
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fifi Posted:
28/06/2006 16:54 |
| Thats right Mary - St. Blaize.. got my gullet blessed many a time. I wonder is there a saint to protect us from the downfalls of drink? |
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Kevin Posted:
28/06/2006 17:46 |
| Why does it have to be pre-rational thinking John? If anything people are looking to go forward in this direction and not backwards. People are entitled to go in their own directions and maybe they are disillusioned with the medical profession. There are theories around since time began and they too are always evolving. The subject is popping up more and more again but I find the alcoholic is especially intrigued by it. In fact he always has and he is very uncomfortable with the situation as it stands. I cannot back up any theory like you can in the sense of statistics or whatever. I cannot prove anything at all nor do I want to. My job is to listen to people and to see the way they judge the world. An alcoholic needs to be nourished constantly in a spiritual way and no amount of drugs will satisfy that. He is lacking the patience and control to see creation all around him. He is only in a state of blindness but I have seen many of them turn their lives around when they found something to really appreciate. I know two particular individuals who found love and remarried. They literally packed up alcohol there and then and are completly new individuals. Their eyes then were opened to a beauty that they had never seen before because they had no patience. None of them needed any medical intervention afterwards. |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
29/06/2006 13:58 |
| Not only modern rational medicine but rationality in general had to struggle for centuries before freeing itself from pre-rational thinking. Yet, here we are in the opening years of the 21st-century, still fighting the same old battle! The pre-rational thinker, as Kevin makes clear, doesn't feel the need to prove anything. He prefers to wallow in it and to Hell with rationality and scientific method! Nobody in his right mind would bother to argue against such hopeless intransigence. I certainly won't! |
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Kevin Posted:
29/06/2006 16:54 |
| Where has modern medicine got all it's ideas John down through the years? It came from ideas and knowledge passed on down the generations. Much of this knowledge was found purely by chance and some of it had no rational thinking in it at all. Many discoveries were made accidentally or stumbled upon. Much more of the knowledge has come from 'picking the brains of someone else' or making connections with a higher brain. Even you must see this. An insight can strike us at any time and many of them come out of the blue. It took me years to 'see' the alcoholics that I have come across in my lifetime. A person studying nature will spend a long long time observing animals before he can let us all see a programme about them on television. It works the same way with an alcoholic. You have to spend years getting to know him and finding out what makes him tick. This is why I have come to the above theories myself because I have interacted with them for a long long time. An alcoholic seeking help in a hospital goes in as a stranger and no-one really understands him in a few days or a couple of weeks. |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
29/06/2006 18:58 |
| Jaysus, Kevin is a mystic! Keep up the good work O Anointed One! One day, you never can tell, the crowds will venerate your bleached bones. Meanwhile, don't forget the vital first step: get your devotees to send a petition to the Kraut in Rome! |
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Mary Posted:
30/06/2006 10:28 |
| John, please stop talking about bleached bones wondering around the country, You've put me right off my cuppa! |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
30/06/2006 13:15 |
| Alright, Mary, I yield to your gentler sensibilities! I lost mine years ago. What worries me is this: I cannot rid myself of the suspicion that the bishops deliberately timed St Therese's visit to test their grip on the minds of the Irish people. The bums on pews test is not the best barometer of clerical power! Many people who stay in bed on Sunday mornings nevertheless will flock to a ceremony or shrine that offers hope of relief from ailments that the doctors have failed to cure. So, do a bit of research and keep an eye on your seemingly lapsed Catholic neighbours as the Health crisis deepens over the next few years. My guess is that many of them will return to the fold and be more than happy to do penance in return for the possibility of a miraculous cure! |
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Kevin Posted:
30/06/2006 13:17 |
| Criky, I'm a creationist and a mystic now all of a sudden. I've never had so many compliments in all my life. Wouldn't fancy anyone worshiping my bleached bones though John especially when they have their own bones. They can buzz off. You sound like a little child John not being able to get his own way in this conversation. You're probably one of those ingrained scientists who cannot open their minds to anything else. Still, you are probably not supposed to because it would only upset your applecart. Your world must stay focused on a certain area and not move beyond it whereas I can look around everywhere. I guess I'm a bit luckier in this lifetime. |
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Mary Posted:
30/06/2006 15:27 |
| Kevin, if I were you I really wouldn't view the term 'creationist' as a compliment AT ALL. |
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Kevin Posted:
30/06/2006 16:37 |
| Anyone that wants to call me names of any kind Mary can do so with my full permission. I'll take everything as a compliment. |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
30/06/2006 16:59 |
| Oh Anointed One, why bother excoriating wretched mortals like myself! We are beyond redemption for we are guilty of that most heinous of all sins - daring to let our rational minds dwell on matters taboo! I wouldn\'t dare ask by what miraculous means you managed to cure, not one, but two alcoholics! You should set up your own shrine - Knock is a good site. Plenty of disappointed pilgrims there already. Believe me, it would be refreshing to see someone with your abilities going into business in opposition to the Catholic church. Watch out for the heavy mob, though. Bishops don\'t like competition. |
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Mary Posted:
03/07/2006 10:53 |
| As far as I am aware John, Alcoholics Anonymous have some measure of success in assisting those alcoholics who want to recover, to do so. |
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Kevin Posted:
03/07/2006 14:41 |
| Dear John, Your eyes are indeed blinded by your rational thinking. I never claimed to cure two alcoholics. They cured themselves. However they could have been helped alright by being in my prescence alone. I kinda like the idea of that. Maybe I had a halo around me and didn't realise it and it could have had a huge effect on these alcoholics for all I know. Then again maybe I spoke rationally to them and they saw the light that way. To be quite honest I don't know what way I influenced them because half the time none of us know what we are doing anyway. Believe it or not one can still be rational and come up with insights at the same time. I haven't spotted yours yet though John. Any chance you could throw me a few hints? |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
04/07/2006 12:09 |
| Haven't spotted any insights of mine yet! Here's one I have repeated time and time again in this thread: the frustration-rages of infancy are acute stress reactions. Insight is nothing more than an intuition that drives research in a new direction. Insights in this sense don't provide SOLUTIONS to problems; they do provide new premises to be developed and tested. That the frustration-rages are stress reactions hardly needs to be tested - you can see and hear the superficial signs of stress. Yet, nobody - not even our small army of 'leading experts' suspected a connection between stress reactions in infancy and the multiplicity of syndromes (including alcoholism) that chronic stress creates! |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
04/07/2006 15:47 |
| Crikey, Mary: "...some measure of success..."! "...in assisting..."! The magic word is CURE! |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
04/07/2006 16:27 |
| Insight is a wonderful faculty, Kevin, but it seems to have gotten out of control with you. Still, too much is infinitely better than none at all! It is a faculty that is easily lost. In fact, the higher the degree of CNS stress, the more attention is directed outwards - as you would expect given that cognition in fight-or-flight mode is fine-tuned to search the environment for signs of danger, thus improving chances of survival. Inwardly directed attention has no survival value in these circumstances. Now, take a careful look at some of Ireland's "leading experts" in alcoholism. Most of them have high CNS stress, and a few have very high stress. Consequently, insight is compromised to a greater or lesser degree in most, if not all, of them! These "experts" may well be good at passing examinations and remembering facts. But their lack of insight stops them thinking innovatively; they don't know how to jump out of the box. And that's where the EUREKA moments happen - outside the box! |
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Mary Posted:
04/07/2006 17:20 |
| Alcoholics themselves will tell you (and there's one in evey extended family) that they are never "cured", but they don ecover. If they were truely cured, they would be able to drink in moderation like the rest of us but they can never take a drink again. Oh "outside the box", please don't let this dicussion descend into meaningless "Americanisms" that nobody in the real world actually takes seriously for a moment. |
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Kevin Posted:
05/07/2006 00:17 |
| John, I am trying to understand your infancy frustration rages but maybe the suspicion needs to be felt more about those studying this area. Everybody talks about stress but no-one actually understands it. We have this image that we are angry and find life hard but that's all. This is the only connection that I can get as well with your frustration rages. Anger. Something that we all feel from time to time. Some more than others. Insight does not indeed cure anything but it is the very first step on the pathway and is one of the most important ones. Insight gives us the courage to move forward and drives us on. But insight doesn't come easily and takes years of observation sometimes. I would disagree that it goes as quickly as it comes. It might if there was no action following it maybe but when there is action it stays forever. I now know conversations that make alcoholics tick and I try my best to bring these up when they are around. Sometimes I am very serious and other times I am funny. My goal is to make the alcoholic feel good about himself and bring him back into equilibuium. Mary is right when she says that if an alcoholic is supposed to be cured then why can he never enjoy a drink. This is another area that I can see frustration rages in. The alcoholic is still out of control if he cannot have one drink. Yet there are millions of others out there who would have been considered alcoholics at one stage of their lives but now only drink one or two days a week. In my opinion then the alcoholic can be cured and be able to control himself in the future. Maybe his frustration rages subsided to such a point where he felt much more in control of his life. |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
06/07/2006 22:18 |
| Mary, certainly given the present state of knowledge, there can be no cure for alcoholism. Like every other syndrome, before you can find a cure, you have to know the cause. Surely, it must be as plain as day that alcoholism originates in a functional disruption of the brain's appetitive homeostatic controls. So, cure is possible. Question is whether anyone wants to find it! After all, the pharmaceutical industry can (and do) make fortunes out of drugs that do no more than suppress symptoms. A genuine cure would threaten profits! |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
07/07/2006 08:55 |
| Kevin - I didn't say that insight is a faculty that "goes as quickly as it comes". I said it is a faculty that is easily lost. If you have it as an adult, you won't lose it. But it can be obliterated in infancy - before you get a chance to develop and exercise it. The normal fight-or-flight response in adulthood shuts down or changes any function antagonistic to maximum fight/flight efficiency. Cognition is one such. Sharp focus and outwardly directed attention are necessary for the high degree of alertness necessary for survival in a threatening situation. Normally, this emergency cognitive mode subsides as soon as the threat has either been avoided or disposed of. In conditions of chronic CNS stress, however, (and varying with the degree) sharply focused outwardly directed attention has become a chronic condition. This is a problem in some circumstences but not in others! Hard science demands sharp focus to cope with the mass of fine detail that confronts the scientist at every turn. But the hard scientist gets stuck whenever there is need for the organising hypothesis - that vital generalisation that enables all of us to put the mass of detail into one context or another. The problem is - and it is a very old problem - the hard scientist just cannot bring himself to trust the theorist. Look at the history of science and you will soon see that progress hs been stalled again and again by scientists who refuse to give the heretic a fair hearing! That's what is happening in Ireland right now! Alcoholism joins a raft of syndromes crying out to be solved. And intransigence by scientists is causing the hold-up! |
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Kevin Posted:
10/07/2006 04:06 |
| But sure of course alcoholism is being held up John. A scientist goes in with the intention of curing a disease but prefers to work with something in the air like germs. They do not see alcoholism in the same light as an alcoholic appears to be self-inflicting. Alcoholism is a distraction to the scientists many of whom are so dedicated to their jobs that I doubt if too many of them have drink problems themselves. Alcoholism is seen as a 'lower' problem to them and I bet many of them would prefer not to deal with the problem at all. The only person that can rightly understand the alcoholic is the most obvious one. The publican. These are the people that need to be gathered together to give their insights into the causes and the problems that the alcoholic has. People are trying to solve this problem on their own when so much more could be discovered. Questionaires and data could be given to many publicans to organise and collect specifically towards the real alcoholics. Publicans should be allowed to sponser their own alcoholics and follow their drinking as well as their thought patterns. And it has to be dedicated publicans for this task. I could see enormous strides being made in this area if the right people were picked. Then you would be enhancing this area with some form of sharp focus and directed attention as well. I understand what you mean by this in threatening situations in particular. I remember particularly being like this when my father died. I was acutly aware of who exactly came to the funeral and I listened far more carefully to what was said at the mass. Marriage ironically produces this heightened sense as well (even though it's supposed to be a happy time) but maybe we can see the threats ahead! |
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Mary Posted:
10/07/2006 09:42 |
| Perhaps John, the answer could be ina drug. Could a drug be developed to restore homeostatic control or indeed a drug or therapy be developed to prevent homeostic conntrol from going out of balance and research done to find out what causes it to go out of balance i.e. what cuases the CNS stress to occur and which people are susceptible to the kind of reaction that causes a CNS stres response. You must remember that there are two types of stres hormone - adrenalin, which we get a rush as part of the fight or flight response and cortisol, which if release long term overa period of chronic stress reacts with the fat in the liver to increase our cholesterol levels and in suspected in CFS abd ME, as well as causing adrenal exhaustion / burnout. |
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Mary Posted:
10/07/2006 10:50 |
| Kevin, I'm not really sure where you're coming from with regard to your point about marriage and funerals? The idea with regard to piublicans might appear to be god but you forget that many alcoholics drink at home and many drink alone. |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
10/07/2006 13:17 |
| Mary - you understand the endocrine system? Great if you do - I gave up on hormones years ago! Perhaps you would throw light on a problem - peripheral to my area of interest but nevertheless relevant to the stress reaction hypothesis: I understand that the adrenal medullary hormone adrenaline is secreted into the circulation in response to hypothalamic stimulation at the onset of the fight-or flight stress reaction. If so, adrenaline secretion would revert to a basal rate as soon as the stress reaction subsides?? And if so - what happens to adrenaline in conditions of chronic CNS stress? Do the adrenal medullae continue to pump out this stress hormone even though there's no longer an objective environmental threat?? |
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Kevin Posted:
10/07/2006 14:04 |
| The majority of alcoholics in the home are women. Men living on their own tend to come out in the neighbourhood in bursts and a rough estimate could be judged against the females. Also, those drinking at home would be feeling a lot lonier and this could be taken into account. |
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Mary Posted:
10/07/2006 14:22 |
| Oh Gosh John, I wouldn't say I understand the endocrine system. We all have hormones - all they are is brain chemicals at a basic level really. Yes, adrenalin is secreted into the circulation in response to the fight-or flight stress reaction. Yes adrenalin secretion would revert to a basal rate as soon as the stress reaction subsides, this is true but in chronic long term stress, cortisol is also secreted. As I understand it, when cortisol is secreted over the long term, this cna result in adrenal fatigue / burnout. High levels of cortisol also react with fat in the liver to raise cholesterol levels. While adrenalin gives you that butterfly sensation, if you've hada near miss with a car accident. Cortisol gives you that dull sick feelign ihn he pit of your stomach when you wake in the morning knowing, for example that you're goign into a high stress job you hate and have a lot of bills / debts. |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
10/07/2006 18:54 |
| Kevin - there you go again. This time you want to recruit publicans! Leave me out - I don't want to know what publicans know about alcoholics, and I don't want to know what alcoholics think they know about themselves or their condition! You remind me now of a scientist I used to know. When asked how his research was going, he always gave the same reply:" I'm waiting 'till all the facts are in."! So how many publicans would you canvass? would it be a local, regional, or national survey? Who pays your research assistants? And who interprets the results? And how would you know when you have enough facts? Etc., Etc., Listen, we have enough facts already - too many I think. And we have a sound working hypothesis. What's needed are more researchers who would be willing to trawl the neuroscience literature for data which could be used to support it. Believe me, there's plenty of supporting data out there. Finding it takes time. But, please, let's keep the publicans out of it. Most of them are probably drunk, anyway! |
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Kevin Posted:
11/07/2006 02:20 |
| That cortisol is an interesting one Mary. I had that sick feeling in my stomach all the time until I started smoking. Then it disappeared completely. Maybe alcohol has the same effect. When that feeling goes you would feel much more confident in yourself. |
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Mary Posted:
11/07/2006 10:38 |
| John, you don't want to know what publicans know about alcoholics, and don't want to know what alcoholics know about themselves. ut surely now it is you who are being closed-minded. If you want to treat the disease which you know relatively little about then surely you must know the victim and their symptoms and how it affects their life. Unless you have buy-in fromthe victim you 'tell' approach wll never work as well asa 'sell' approach. Tell me and I forget, show me and I remember but involve me and I understand. Kevin if your endocrine system is disrupted to the extent that you have excessive cortisol prduction on a daily basis only two things will stop that - massive lifestyle change or corto-blockers. |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
11/07/2006 11:43 |
| No, Mary, I am not being closed minded! Anecdotal evidence doubtless has its place in research but not at the stage I find myself in right now. I need, as I have said, solid support - the kind pouring in torrents out of research labs around the world right now. Try keeping abreast of that avalanche and you'll have little time left for anecdotes!I'm all in favour of listening to victims of alcohol addiction. But would it not be better to postpone listening until I think I know why I am listening in the first place? |
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Mary Posted:
11/07/2006 14:00 |
| Ah I see what you mean John. It s the case, I understand that the Central Nervous System is divided into four areas. the peripheral Nervous System. the autonomic Nervous System. the Sympathetic and the Parasympathetic Nervous System. |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
11/07/2006 15:56 |
| Mary, are you trying to bait me? Whoever told you that the peripheral nervous system is a division of the Central Nervous System? The four divisions of the CNS are (1) the spinal cord; (2) the brainstem (medulla, pons, midbrain); (3) the diencephalon (thalamus, hypothalamus); (4) the telencephalon (cerebral cortices). |
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Mary Posted:
11/07/2006 16:23 |
| No, I'm not tryign to bait anyone - why would I. This informaiton as part of a sci/med discussion on another discusion board. |
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Kevin Posted:
11/07/2006 18:00 |
| Oh, well, John, a door isn't much good without a key. That's probably why most things don't get cured in this country or around the world for that matter. It's probably the reason why the whole health service is so bad. Every area has to be tied up and there can be no vital outside interference at all. Typical of course. Most businesses and professions are the same. They think they know better than anyone else. If it came down to it though I bet we publicans have cured more alcoholics then any of the medical profession together. It's okey you can laugh away at this if you like but there is far better truth out there waiting to be discovered. Maybe some day more intelligent people will recognise that they really cannot open a door without a key. |
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Kevin Posted:
12/07/2006 02:26 |
| Mary, I did make a lifestyle change to stop this exessive cortison production. I started smoking and it got rid of it. Don't you recommend smoking at all Mary??? |
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Mary Posted:
12/07/2006 12:20 |
| KEVIN, HOW ARE PUBLICANS GOING TO CURE ALCOHOLICS? I was referrign to cortisol not cortisone, quite different tho; an easy typo to make. No I would not ecommend smoking to anyone. It puts people at risk of far too many serious illnesses bu then we know that already. The first thing I would do, is have a panel of blood tests taken to determine if you are over-producing cortisol or underproducing adrenalin and then find out te root cause as to WHY, not self medicate the symtoms with cigarettes. Smoking is not more a lifestyle change than alcoholism. Both are addictions and it doesn't cue excess cortisol production anymore than alcohol cures shyness or stress, or the CNS stress than John is suggesting is at the root cause of it. |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
12/07/2006 12:35 |
| Kevin - how right you are! The Health system in this country is a closed system, jeaously guarded by an ambitious elite. Remember what happened to Dr. Noel Browne in the \'fifties? He was the only genuine reform-minded Health minister this country has ever seen or is ever likely to see. His heart was in the right place but unfortunatly for him (and the rest of us) he was politically naive. Church and state (the other closed systems) united against him, relegating him to the back benches for the rest of his life. There\'s a lesson to be learned from Noel Browne\'s fate, Kevin: don\'t waste your time using a key to open the door - kick the thing in! It can be done. |
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Mary Posted:
12/07/2006 15:26 |
| You know John, re: our comment about Noel Browne, my father would be the first in line tro agree with you and unliek myself, he was actually around in the 50's and remembers them. |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
12/07/2006 15:51 |
| And, anyway, if we want to find the most important key - the one that unlocks the root cause of the predisposition to alcoholism -we must look beyond the typical symptoms of that particular syndrome. We have to put aside the sharp focus that enables us to isolate the symptoms. We must adopt a more global cognitive mode - one that throws into sharp relief the background neuronal events that create the symptoms. In other words, if we want to understand one tree (alcoholism), we have to first understand the forest. And that precisely is where researchers the world over have a big problem. They understand the need to see the forest. But they have been so blinded by rigid focus on their individual trees that they neglected the forest. The forest in this case turns out to be Chronic Central Nervous System Stress; and the various syndromes are the symptoms. So, now you can see why nobody - not even a publican! - can hope to cure alcoholism. But if our medical people can find a way to cure chronic CNS stress - then, as if by magic - not only the predisposition to alcoholism but all the other symptoms would vanish! |
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P(PRafter) Posted:
12/07/2006 21:18 |
| I've read a few of the new posts and I can honestly say they're unlike anything I've ever seen. I don't know what's being said here and I don't think anyone else does, including the "authors". 'Symptoms of terminal Malapropist Syndrome are scattered throughout. I now need a stiff drink(even though I'm off it)and some soothing music! Thank you. |
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Kevin Posted:
13/07/2006 02:12 |
| John, You describe your forest as being the Chronic Central Nervous System Stress and its various syndromes as its symptoms. My forest is a belief in a God with its various syndromes as its symtoms. The biggest question on everybody's mind since time began is - Is there a God there and if so why doesn't he show himself? The second largest question is - What is death and do I go somewhere after? This is where all stress is coming from after. All those seriously ill people and all those people heavily addicted to drugs are carrying this 'can' for everyone else. I see this fear of not knowing in people every day of my life. People are terrified of death and what might Not be there afterwards when they die. Some are so afraid of it that they have to take their own lives because they cannot bear the waiting. It is no surprise that this has increased in Ireland because people are more afraid now than they ever were. They have no decent rock to hold unto at the moment. The alcoholic (not the one in the home, he is hiding from it) is searching for answers all the time. He searches through drink hoping to find someone or something on the way to give him clues. Everyday he does it moving from place to place. While you may think it's because he doesn't want to be seen drinking and is ashamed of what he does, I would say different. He moves around looking and searching for information that could put his mind at rest. Having watched the alcoholic for years I know what he is looking for and that is why I will bring up this conversation at every opportunity that I can. I word it in such a way that allows him to have input into it and I know that the alcoholic is calmer afterwards. There is a way but it takes observation, commitment and patience to help the alcoholic and it does pay off. There isn't a publican in the country who doesn't want to see a person hurt by a product that he sells. That is like a doctor not being able to save a patient from a heart attack. More than anything else we want to see the alcoholic enjoying his drink rather than being controlled by it. But first of all the alcoholic must be understood. |
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Mary Posted:
13/07/2006 11:41 |
| Ah but John, surely to cure CNS stress, we must find out what causes it. Certainly in he last 20 years we have become more time-poor than we ever were. We must be up early to beat the ver growing traffic. we have tighter deadlines in the workplace and overtime is expected. We have longer queues and less time to wait in them, we have to rush home to collect the children. We prepare meals and eat them in a hurry. We do all the laundry on the fast cycle, we go to the pub early in order to get a seat, we rush through phone conversations. This surely is contributing to the cause of CNS stress. P, could your 'Symptoms of terminal Malapropist Syndrome' becuased by CNS stress too do you think? :-) |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
13/07/2006 12:39 |
| Paddy - keep the postings coming! Your last one illustrates to perfection how eager your kind are to transform a symptom into virtue: you admit you don't understand a word written here. But instead of admitting your ignorance, you invent a new syndrome for the authors! Paddy, do the sensible thing and go back to your comics! |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
14/07/2006 12:42 |
| Ah, Mary - trust you to open Pandora's box! Maybe, we can cope with stressful careers, stressful family life, etc., because the chronic CNS stress we acquire as infants adds to the stress we inherit from our parents. Stressed people tend to create stressful lifestyles, not only for themselves, but for everyone else as well. The great innovators in every walk of life have been 'driven' individuals even as youngsters, tireless, energetic, impatient. The rest of us - well, we have no choice but to adapt as best we can! |
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Mary Posted:
14/07/2006 14:10 |
| Wasn't intending to open with anything. So are you saying our ability to cope is acquired from the CNS stress we experience as infants and the stress you say we inherit? Could CNS stres then be said to be a good thing? Why is interesting is what causes this CNS stress in infancy. Also, how do we inherit stress form out parents? Is it genetic? Is it becaUse they also experienced CNS stress as children , internalised it and are passing it on or is it in out upbringing. Becuase they were stressed, we pick up their stressful patterns and methods of coping - or not coping as the case may be? Funny, your comment about stressed people creating stressful lives but is it not the case that daily we witness more and moe people becoming stressed. A god friend of mine is an example perhaps. Her father is your typical Type A, high tempered perfectionist. She too is stressed and worried aobut every little thing and seems to be permanently on the edge of a panic, Now her father got a wake up call in the fom of a massive heart attacj 5 yars ago and changed his outlook totally but this has not benefitted her at all. |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
14/07/2006 18:04 |
| We don't need stress to enable us to cope in a stress-free society. A mild to moderate degree of CNS stress can be beneficial. It makes us more alert, more energetic, more ambitious, and we can get by with less sleep. But there's a price to be paid in the long term. The more we deprive ourselves of deep sleep, the less time we give our bodies to recover from wear and tear. And damage is cumulative! That's why many stressed people can burn the midnight oil as young men and women but as they get older the danger of succumbing to heart attacks and strokes increases. The short-tempered perfectionist (Type A) occupies the pathological extreme in the stress stakes. |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
14/07/2006 18:10 |
| Kevin - so, your forest is a belief in God? Well, you're welcome to your belief! Maybe one day you'll wake up to find yourself living, not in a metaphorical forest, but in a pre-rational jungle! |
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Kevin Posted:
15/07/2006 03:16 |
| John, maybe you'll find the same except in the opposite direction. My forest is not a belief in God but is there a God there? If there is you can believe in him and if not you needn't bother. Trouble is no-one seems to know and this is where the confusion lies within each individual. That's where all stress originates from. Everyone is trying to be as good as they can in order to win favor from others. Or... Are they really trying to win favor from God or whoever made them? Most people are convinced that they were 'made' by someone or something. They see this someone or something after making something incredible all around them. So they drive themselves on to match this perfection. This automatically creates stress as many of their dreams and ambitions fall apart. They get the impression that they have failed in the eyes of themselves, everyone around them and God. So they fall into traps of despondancy and despair at times and find it increasingly hard to be happy. On top of all that you have material wealth but this only comes on top of what is originally there. And so layers and layers of stress are created. There is no difference in personalities afterwards. Your type A only shows this stress outwardly and type B shows it inwardly although I would believe that there are 'carriers' of stress as well. |
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Kevin Posted:
17/07/2006 02:34 |
| John, I couldn't be more focused on this topic. You just don't agree with my theories or cannot see what I am saying. I get the impression that you must think that I am one of these religious freaks but I can assure you that I am not. I just see this subject as the one that confuses everybody and I understand their fear. People want to talk about this and so I am willing to converse with them always on this subject. Other people like to avoid this subject but that does nothing to eliminate or diminish the fear in people. By opening up this discussion you see so many ways that a person looks at life and the problems that they see in it. For instance an alcoholic said to me one time that he believes in a loving God. His image of a loving God though was one that allowed him to drink. One has to be extremely careful then in answering this particular thoughtform that this person has. You still want him to hold the vision of a loving God but not so loving that he allows him to do what he likes. This is why these conversations are so important. Maybe now you can see where I am coming from. |
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Mary Posted:
17/07/2006 09:00 |
| But John, we don't have a stress free society, you only have to look around you to see that is quite obvious. Kevin, do you seriously believe stress originates from people trying to figure out if there's a God or not? Why then are all commited believers and commited athesits not stress-free as they appear to themselves to have the whole thing figured out. I am convinved I was "made by" an ovum, fertilzed by a sperm and grown in a uterus. This is the most humans are made in fact. Not everyone is a perfectionist and not everyone "carries" stress. |
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Kevin Posted:
17/07/2006 12:52 |
| Mary, there is no such thing as a stress free person in my eyes. Anyone that claims they are are only codding themselves. Some of these committed believers are lunatics or have you not noticed? And some of the scientists are lunatics as well. But no-one escapes stress at all because it is part of our make-up. If one just listened to the thoughts of their minds they would find a nice few stress ones coming through. Everyone is sensitive to something and some people carry more than others. While you believe that you were 'made' by an ovum and fertilized by a sperm there are many out there who would ask who made the ovum and who made the sperm? |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
17/07/2006 13:05 |
| Mary - yes, I know! We don't have a stress-free society. To find a society that is completely without CNS stress, we have to go back in time to the small bands of hunter-gatherers of the Upper Paleolithic and beyond. Infanticide was widespread because these groups were semi-nomadic; mothers could not cope with more than one child at a time. CNS stress set in with the improved food supply and resulting population increase during the Early Neolithic, and continues to increase during the Bronze Age. By the time of the Iron Age, in most societies, stress has reached epidemic proportions. You can get a good idea of any society's CNS stress level from from aggression. The lower the stress, the more pacifiic a people tends to be; as stress increases, warfare becomes endemic - the Iron Age was one of the most bloodthirsty periods in human history. Now, we Irish have been brainwashed to believe that large families are the Roman Catholic ideal! Now can you see why so many Irish suffer from chronic CNS stress. Catholic virtue is - literally - killing us! |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
17/07/2006 13:08 |
| I won\'t try to keep track of Kevin\'s meanderings any more! |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
17/07/2006 15:37 |
| Kevin - as a matter of fact stress-free people do exist. Not many of us left though! |
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Mary Posted:
17/07/2006 16:26 |
| So John, are you now saying that CNS stres is caused by couples and women having more children than they can cope with - hence it is causign addiction problems. I have no children and still feel stressed from time to time. |
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John(OHL33440) Posted:
17/07/2006 17:20 |
| Mary, read a few of my earlier posts! CNS stress originates in the frustration-rages of infancy. The more children a mother has the greater the likelihood that youngest repeatedly suffers excessive CNS excitation and a series of stress reactions. Down our way, hard pressed mothers routinely shut a raging infant into a room and closed the door! |
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Kevin Posted:
17/07/2006 18:03 |
| John, I doubt that you are a stress free person! You can't handle me at all! I don't know why. I'd agree with you though on one thing though. The more children a mother has the more the youngest can show up these tendencies. Some of the alcoholics that I know are in fact the youngest in families as well would you believe. Still, it was the second of my children that stressed me out the most and I do remember walking away from the room once or twice. I never did it with the younger crowd though. |
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Mary Posted:
18/07/2006 08:47 |
| Ah, but now we are back to the original question - what causes these frustration rages in infancy? If the mother, or indeed the father as both parties are co-parents no in the much truer sense than they were since pre-industrial times, has more children, how does this cause the youngest to suffer repeated CNS stress? Is it lack of attention as the parents devote more atention to the demnding toddlers and the older childrens increasing needs? Down your way, hard pressed mothers routinely shut a raging infant into a room and closed the door!!!!! Oh Good grief. That sounds so completely cruel. I have no children, as I don't perticularly want any but even I, altho' I am not maternal could never do that to another human being. Heck, I couldn't even do that to an animal. Why sign off tho' John? Aren't you interested in further discussion? If you have no more theories, it doesn't matter. You could always discuss / debate ours. |
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Kevin Posted:
18/07/2006 12:55 |
| Mary, John is probably suffering from frustration rages coming from infancy. If you were to take John's theory then the mothers are also suffering from these infantile frustration rages when they walk out of the room! So this is quite natural then and you can't blame the mothers when they can't cope with their kids. Even then, when the mother walks out, she still has the frustration rage controlled somewhat. If she stays in the room with the child screaming her head off after maybe an hour trying to calm it down she could get so frustrated that she would end up hitting the child. Mothers walk out of the room to try and calm themselves down first so that they can go back and try again more composed. They are walking out for both their sakes. The youngest ends up getting most of the attention from the parents I think Mary. At least that is what is happening in our house and one tends to give into the youngest more and end up protecting them more. The reason for the younger one's stress I think comes from his older siblings who tend to make fun of him a lot. There can be quite a bit of jealousy towards the younger one as well as the siblings notice the parents more protective towards him. The older siblings can also end up having the youngest 'hanging off' them as they are made to mind him as well. On the one hand he appears to be more loved and on the other hand he appears to be a nuisance. This must create a conflict in the youngest. |
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Mary Posted:
18/07/2006 17:21 |
| I cannot imagine any justification Kevin for anyone caring for a child to leave them alone in a room crying hysterically. Remember, a child does not know the person is going to come back. How do you know that a child does not in fact "cry it out" but rather blacks out from either panic or some sort of frustration overload in the brain due to prolonged stress reaction. Tell me Kevin, would you as an adult like to be shut in a room, crying in hysterical panic? Well if you would not like it, why on earth could you imagine doing it to a child who does not have the reasoning of an adult? The older siblings in your house, make fun of the baby? Really? That must be very upsetting. John, there is no-one here writing a textbok. Are you also having an infantile frusration rage of your own perhaps and that is why you are leaving? If there are certain questions you cannot answer, I don't think anyone will mind. No one is a walking encyclopdia. |
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Kevin Posted:
19/07/2006 00:20 |
| Mary, it is easy to know that you have no kids by your last post and I don't mean that as an insult. When I go out of the room Mary, I am within earshot of the child. I am outside there because it is I who is in a panic trying to cope! While I catch my breath and control myself I will be back inside in that room within five-10 minutes. Hopefully that few minutes will send me in much calmer. I remember standing in my cot Mary wailing my head off for my mother to come in and get me in the mornings and I'm sure every child has gone through that at least for the tiniest of minutes. We mothers are only human and are trying the best we can. Most of the time we can cope very well but other times we are cross, tired and hungry just like any other human being. Many women are left with all this work as well and many men avoid it like the plague. I don't know what is wrong with John. We are fully on his subject now and instead he decides to do a runner. Maybe he is running away from his own theories. |
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Mary Posted:
19/07/2006 15:52 |
| But Kevin, it is the child who is in a panic - don't you remember being a child? He or she does not know you you are going to come back in. All they know is that they are terribly terribly distressed and the person they trust and love has left them. If a woman is left with the work and her partner avoids it then it is something in the partnership that's wrong, not something in the child. Pity John didn't stick around alright, I thought we were finally managing to tease a bit of sense out of his theories. |
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Kevin Posted:
20/07/2006 02:19 |
| Yes, Mary, I remember being a child but I can assure you that adults experience far worse panic than a child does especially when they become parents! You must also remember that when a mother has walked out of a room she could have spent a full hour or two trying to settle the child already. Sometimes it's not always about the child screaming and roaring either. It's about trying to get them off to sleep and about singing songs lulling them to sleep for ages and ages. You should have a chat with the nurses as well in the nursery wards Mary who have ignored babies crying many times. Thankfully some of us mothers recognise our child's cry and go down and take them up. But the nurses are supposed to be giving us a break while we are recovering after the birth. Lots of men don't want to get involved in children anyway Mary. Here in modern day Ireland men still think that this area is a woman's job. If a child then turns out to be a nuisance to society it is the mother who feels that she is to blame. |
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Mary Posted:
20/07/2006 12:49 |
| Don't you remember feeling any panic like that when you were a child. The parent KNOWS she or he will come back into the room but the child doens not neccessarily know. If a child is not ready to go to sleep, why not pop them in a baby sling or wrap (you know, one of the ones you sort of wear around you.) This works for several friends of mine, (3 mums and a Dad). It seems the sound of the heartbeat, which the baby would have become used to in the womb anyway) and any movement lulls them to sleep. Baby massage also helps according to a cousin of mine. A nursery nurse, i think, should also be one of the last people to ignore a childs cry, takin care of newborns (those who are not rooming in obviously) is part of the nurses fulltime job, surely. If a man does not want to get involved with HIS OWN child, then he should NOT become a father, until he is ready and willing to do so. |
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Kevin Posted:
21/07/2006 03:04 |
| But Mary, we do all those things. I remember having a baby sling on and holding two others on either arm and another one clung unto my leg! I was like Hercules around the place! Try doing all your housework as well with all that Mary and you have to turn into Superman as well! Then you have to try and become Spiderman to try and get a break from them! If by chance the father decides to mind them for an hour or so while you have a nap then you wish that you were like Sleeping Beauty but you have to have an ear still cocked when you are asleep! Some days you could have three or four of them like Rumplestilskins around the place with their temper tantrums or like Sylvester the cat trying to watch the mouse all the time to see where he goes! Then you have a long haul ahead of you at night when you have to read Each one of them a story or sing nursery rhymes and eventually when you do try to get some sleep 'Baa, baa black sheep' keeps repeating itself over and over in your mind and it takes ages for you to go off. Then you are no sooner asleep when the baby wakes up for it's feed at night and then the second feed and then they are all in on top of you at 6a.m in the morning bouncing on top of the bed and on our heads as if there is no tomorrow!! Criky, maybe there is some truth all the same in these frusration rages!! |
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Mary Posted:
21/07/2006 10:47 |
| "Try doing all your housework as well with all that" But Kevin, if you are taking care of all the children - and four is a lot at one time, why would you be doing the houework as well? There are two parents in the situation, if one is taking care of the children, what is the other one doing. S/he has responsibility too. "If by chance the father decides to mind them for an hour or so while you have a nap" - Well what on earth else would he be doing except taking care of them - they are HIS children. Why isn't their father reading to some of them? My Dad wasn't a great reader but he used to tell me great stories at night before I went to sleep. |
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Kevin Posted:
22/07/2006 03:47 |
| Ah, Mary, who else is going to do the housework? To be fair to the father he has to bring in the money so he's wrapped up in this area. When you are self-employed as well the hours can be very very long. In our case if I wanted a break from the kids I would have to go to work to get it! And when I had to go to town I used to call my mother-in-law to mind them but I used to feel guilty giving her not four of them but seven of them because my older three would have been too young to leave on their own as well. I couldn't afford a babysitter Mary and that is being honest. So yes the going can be very tough at times and one could easily reach breaking point. But then they were an easy bunch overall and got on very well as brothers and sisters. It has all been worthwhile and they are growing up into lovely people. Sometimes they can be easier to deal with when they are small rather than when they become teenagers when more complex issues come into play. With regards to alcohol they have a very healthy attitude towards it, don't make any great deal about it and never go overboard only on a very rare occasion. We've never made any big deal about their drinking and at the same time never encouraged them either. We just stay indifferent about alcohol and it works. They are indifferent too and it isn't a big part in their lives. We concentrate on encouraging outside interests or aiming for a handsome job and we pour all our energies in here. This distracts them from alcohol and keeps them aiming higher in a focused and interested way. Education and encouragment mixed with an indifference towards alcohol is the key to staying on the right path. |
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Mary Posted:
24/07/2006 13:00 |
| I'm neithr sniping nor snarling, simplky looking for answers - which you rfuse to give. Your attitude with 'be silent!' is quite typicla also - of those who wish to appear as tho' they occupy the intellectual high gound. |
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Kevin Posted:
24/07/2006 13:56 |
| Welcome back Johnny! I thought you were going missing for six months. Me and Mary are on a discovery route and you'd never know what we might find. We might just happen to stumble across your synaptic transmission unless of course you want to give us some kind of grounding on it yourself. |
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Xray Posted:
09/10/2007 16:46 |
| I hear a lot of fear and denial, this is no time for cowardice. Commercial advertising was invented to push consumers to buy things they do not 'need'. Everyone is a consumer, unless you are 100% self-sufficient. If alcohol is a good thing in itself then why does it need to be pushed so intensively? Mostly people abuse themselves with alcohol in order to compensate for their feelings of inadequecies. Through becoming drunk they seperate themselves from reality and play out their alter ego. Here they can be that happy, likeable person who laughs at every joke and tells stories about nearly crashing their car into a ditch/wall/tree/car etc. Damaging your IQ, liver and general health become things to be reveled in; 'we are young and we don't give a f***, we are rebels, we will live for ever....' or 'I'm too old to change my ways.....' At some point those who chose to be cowardly will have to live with the consequences of the limited lives enforced on all our children. Life is a decision you make every day. Stay Positive, Simon |
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