Women who flirt 'blamed' for rape

By Deborah Condon

A new poll in the UK has found that 34% of people believe that a women is partially or totally responsible for being raped if she has behaved in a flirtatious manner. However the Rape Crisis Network Ireland (RCNI) has said it is not surprised by the results and would expect similar findings if such a poll was carried out here.

The opinion poll, which was carried out by Amnesty International UK, found that:

-26% of people thought a woman was partially or totally responsible for being raped if she was wearing sexy or revealing clothing.

-30% held this view if a woman was drunk.

-37% held this view if the woman had failed to clearly say 'no' to a man.

-22% held this view if a woman had many sexual partners.

Furthermore around one in 12 people (8%) believed that a woman was totally responsible for being raped if she had had many sexual partners.

"We are not surprised by these figures and if a similar poll was held in Ireland, the results wouldn't be much different", Cliona Saidlear of the RCNI told irishhealth.com.

According to Ms Saidlear, nowadays, if a woman dresses up and drinks alcohol while out, it is often seen as if she is 'pre-consenting' to have sex.

"We thought we had moved away from this years ago - the idea that if a woman wears a short skirt, she is somehow asking to be raped. However this seems to be the case again. This is something that must be addressed in education. Young people need to learn the importance of respect for each other", she said.

The UK poll involved over 1,000 adults aged 18 and over.


Anonymous - 21/11/2005 14:57

At discos it is said that if a young girl has her knickers on under her short skirt then she doesn't want sex. However those who want to give sex keep their knickers off! I think short skirts should be banned completely!

Rachel - 21/11/2005 15:51

I think it's horrible that some people actually believe that a woman is totally responsible for being raped, i think it's terrible that a man can wrongly assume that just because a woman is wearing a short skirt that she is his for the taking whether she agrees or not, i actually find it very hard to believe that that's the mentality of so many people. It's ridiculus, any man that thinks like that must be a neanderthal and deserves to be castrated. BUT i do feel the need to mention that in my opinion it is wrong of women (and i see it all the time when i am out) to come on very strongly to multiple guys, strangers at that, and then tell them to take a hike and laugh about it (i'm putting all of this mildly btw) Please don't get me wrong, i am not saying these girls are asking for it, but it's looking for trouble in many different ways, girl's like that have no respect for themselves so can't expect other to treat them with respect, nobody deserves to be raped but SOME women should be careful.

John(johnwilliams) - 21/11/2005 18:38

Polls can be used to prove anything. I would very much doubt if such a high percentage of people believed that a woman in a short skirt was asking to be raped. What was the breakdown of the interviewees? Some older women may take an extreme view because of what they see as promiscuity among younger women. As a male I find short skirts attractive.

Diana - 21/11/2005 18:57

Let's get real and own up to things once and for all. When a woman wears a short skirt, fancy tights and high heels then she is feeling sexy herself. She cannot feel otherwise. This then is picked up by men. It would be far better if the long skirt was promoted for the romantic feel instead of the sexy style. Keep those skirts for the husband's alone at home.

Anonymous - 24/11/2005 16:19

Girls should be aloud wear what they want. I agree that some girls wear more going swimming that they do going out sometimes but thats there choice and fair play to them for been so confident and that should'nt be a reason why someone gets raped thats just making excuses. Its a controll thing he just wants to be in charge.

Anonymous - 24/11/2005 18:32

Diana, so because a woman is feeling confident and good about herself, then this gives men a right to misread this confidence for 'I am anyone's, even if I say no'? That is complete rubbish. I was raped about 8 months ago by a group of four men at a party. I was wearing a short skirt and I was drunk. However, I also firmly said no repeatedly. It absolutely disgusts me what they did to me. It further disgusts me that this new poll shows that almost one third of Irish adults would actually say that I deserved to be treated in this manner. I am happy with the way I look and I chose to show this confidence that night, but that night I was punished for doing so. I was by no means dressed like a 'slut' or acting like one, I was merely wearing a skirt only slightly above my knees. It is because of attitudes like this that led me never to report it and I more than likely never will. Those men raped me and I couldn't stop them, they made me feel cheap and dirty. I have blamed myself over and over for that night but the truth is they took advantage of me and even though I kept saying no they still did it. It wasn't my fault, it was theirs.

Gazebo - 24/11/2005 20:50

Dear Anonymous, what happened to you is horrible, and I say that as a man. Please, please, please report this criminal assault to the Gardai and make sure the scumbags who did this to you get what they are due. I know it's hard to face into, but apart from what they did to you, scum like this are a menace to other people as well, and will almost certainly do this to some other defenceless person - you may well not have been their first victim. Having a few jars is not 'consent'. If a man had a few pints, was talking a load of crap, was then pounced on by 4 guys and raped, you wouldn't hear too many men saying "well, there you go, with the nice little arse on him, what did he expect, sure he was gagging for it". That's the reality. Be calm but firm with the Gardai. Get a solicitor or trusted friend to help you, get the assistance of the Rape Crisis Centre, but DO report these criminals. I wish you the very best with it.

Diana - 25/11/2005 01:56

There's a difference between feeling confident and feeling sexy. Many women are unsure of themselves in a mini-skirt as well but go along with it because it is the norm. A confident woman on the other hand doesn't have to resort to a mini-skirt and doesn't have to resort to getting drunk either. Those women who get drunk I believe are the ones that are lacking in confidence. I find it hard to believe that a woman who was supposedly confident and who enjoys the way she looks also being afraid to report getting raped by four men! I know that I would definately have gone to the guards if it was only one man. If it was four I would have gone to the government!

Green eyes - 25/11/2005 07:44

Anonymous,my heart goes out to you..I cannot believe that you had to go through such an ordeal..As a woman we should have the right to wear whatever we want..if that means wearing a skirt, see through top whatever it is, it is our choice..I cannot understand how any one could ever see that you were at fault by wearing what you did that night..it is a disgrace that because you show a piece of flesh that some men think they have the right to rape you..You are a very brave woman but you should try and take that step forward and report the indispicable crime that was commited to you..I know that it is hard but in my opinion it will give you some closure..i was mugged years ago by a number of girls and lets just say that girls know where to hurt another girl..i didn't want to take it further but i decided it was the right thing to do..Yes it was hard but knowing that those girls(one was 8 months pregnant) paid for what they did made it seem that little bit easier..i cannot imagine the pain that you are going through but be as strong as what you are being now and take that step further to reporting that awful crime.. Best of luck to you and know that i, as well as the majority of people don't think for one second that you deserved anything that happened to you..Well done for telling your story here..

fifi - 25/11/2005 10:26

Listen, women should be able to walk around naked if they so wish without the threat of being raped. Is this 2005? Im not sure to be honest. I cant believe in this day & age people can say a woman looks to be raped. Is a woman not allowed to feel good, confident & sexy in herself without men thinking she is up for grabs. Ireland needs to come out of the dark ages.

Anonymous - 25/11/2005 12:30

Diana, firstly, I did not 'resort' to drink, I was enjoying a normal night out with my friends. I was drunk like every other 23 year old gets. And because I was feeling confident, I felt I could wear a short skirt and look good. However, the confidence I have now is a mere shadow of that which I had when I left my house that night. Those men took away that confidence, they made me feel like nothing. I was repulsed that four men could actually do that to me, when until then, I had regarded myself as a strong, self-assured woman. Quite the opposite from still feeling confident, I felt completely ashamed. So you can see that going to the government and having this brought to the public eye would not have been a very attractive route for me to take. And I worry that by bringing it to the Gardaí, I would lose my case. Quite apart from the fact that I severely doubt ever being able to find out who those men were as their friends undoubtedly would protect their names, if they were found, I do not believe that I would win my case. A drunk girl wearing a short skirt at a late party full of men, surely she was asking for it. It sickens me that they have gotten away with it and I really do appreciate the support everybody on this site has given me. But it is polls like this that deter women from reporting rape and serve to strengthen the shame and agony that we are already feeling.

Anonymous - 25/11/2005 17:15

If the law won't provide protection for incidents like as happened to the girl who was raped, I think it is time that peole took it upon themselves to sort out losers/cowards who attack women. I know if this happened to me that it would be easy to find a group of males who would find these filthbags and physically sort them out. No doubt they would cry and beg for mercy as such inadequete wimps are not real men and will only pick on women.

Anonymous - 28/11/2005 22:14

Yeah I know, of my male friends who know about it, they have all offered on numerous occasions to teach them a lesson they'll remember. I guess I just thought the less big a deal I make of it, the quicker I can get over it. I suppose by taking action, whether it be physical or through the law, it would have made it all the more real to me. Even now, though I have had counselling to try to deal with it, it still seems almost surreal. But when I saw this survey, I got so worked up that it became real again. I just can't believe how cold some people can be, they really have no idea what it's like at all. Being raped completely destroys you, no girl or woman ever goes looking for or deserves that.

Diana - 29/11/2005 02:23

Anon 12:30 In my opinion, you could just as easily win the case as well. So nothing should stop you especially if you don\'t want other young women to experience this problem. A lot of other women have done it so you can actually travel this route too.

Anonymous - 29/11/2005 12:48

Diana, just curious - have you seen the new figures from the Rape Crisis Network of Ireland which show that just 1% of sexual crimes, including rapes, end in conviction. Where exactly are you getting the idea that this woman could easily win a case?? I like to think I'd report such a crime but the current system can hardly be considered encouraging...

liam(lcollins) - 29/11/2005 22:01

lets get this into perspective, females attract males, males are attracted to females, its the evolution of the species that counts, this is survival instinct, to survive we must cupulate, modern standards stifle this natural instinct. rape is an invented phrase, invented by a society that is so proper and involved with themselves that they are perverted into oblivion. rape is unwanted copulation and just because females are giving off endomorphrines by the trillion, they should not be in the vicinity of males during this phase, because the attraction is unendruable to the male species, it tells them that its time to coupluate, they are programmed to react to populate the world its human nature, and if females are not sure of what to do , they should not make themselves attractive to the males, in these circumstances, the arab countries have a point in having women dress completly with only their eyes showing, it takes two to tango the male species should not be totally to blame./

Diana - 29/11/2005 23:28

Well, I wouldn't walk away from it either! Think of all the courage that you'll get back for yourself alone! I'd go into that courtroom with my boxing gloves on and I am dead serious! What is it? Are you one of these strong modern women who fight for every right that she is entitled to. Or do you want to stay as one of those meek, mild, do-as-you-are-told and say nothing kind of women. For God's sake! Wake up! If you have The Rape Crisis Centre behind you, you should stand a great chance anyway!

Anonymous - 30/11/2005 12:04

Liam- women are entilted to were what they want and I nice genuine guy is able to controll there \"urges\" Men do attract women & Women attract men but that doesnt give anyone the right to do what they want to a person, if a women says NO she means NO & you cant say well I taught she ment yes because she was wearing a short skirt and she was giving off endomorphrines so I taught it would be ok. We were not put on this earth to reproduce as you seem to think! Most women do themselves up for themselves not to attract men and even if they do go out on the \"pull\" that doesnt mean they want sex it means they want a gud evening with a nice guy (i.e a chat & a laugh). Im just thankfull that not all men are like you and if you are attached (which I\'d say is very doubtfull)I pitty your partner because she will have a long hard and ungratefull life!

Anonymous - 30/11/2005 16:07

Liam, I cannot believe what I have just read. You clearly have absolutely no idea what it is like to be raped and also no compassion whatsoever. I had said NO to them repeatedly, they all knew full well that I was scared and didn't want them to do what they were doing, I had also never ever given them any signal that I was interested in any of them, not ever. I hadn't even been talking to them, I had no idea who they were. All this talk about 'endomorphines' and 'unendurable' attraction is complete rubbish. Just because men are attracted to women, this does not give them a God-given right to force sex upon them. Do you know what the word 'force' means? I couldn't get them off me, I was terrified. And then you come and tell me that it takes two to tango? Have you any idea how hurtful and insulting that is? I feel sick to my stomach at what you have just said.

Trish - 30/11/2005 16:29

Liam your post seems to say that you feel that when a man is attracted to a woman he has no choice but to have sex with her. That forcing himself on to her is a natural instinct and that he is blameless. If I have understood you then I am amazed, I didn’t think anyone held such ridiculous feelings. Please try to imagine telling a woman you love that she was raped because she made herself pretty. I do not believe that all men are potential rapists.

Trish - 30/11/2005 16:42

Just to have a more in depth look at Liam’s post “modern standards stifle this natural instinct” people do have natural sexual urges if they are attracted to someone but I’m fairly certain that throughout history it was never acceptable for people to just strip off and have sex whenever, wherever with whomever they choose. “rape is unwanted copulation and just because females are giving off endomorphrines by the trillion, they should not be in the vicinity of males during this phase,” During this phase? What phase? How are we supposed to know when this phase, in which people cannot be held responsible for their actions is? Or should we only be around members of the opposite sex whenever we’re happy to “copulate” with anyone going “because the attraction is unendruable to the male species” Because the attraction is intolerable…….have people no self restraint in your opinion? “it takes two to tango the male species should not be totally to blame” You said previously that rape is “unwanted copulation” if you agree that rape is something a woman or man does not want then how are they part of the tango. Many studies have shown that rape is rarely about sex anyway, it’s about an attempt to exercise control over a person. Anyway, I’m convinced Liam(lcollins) is trying to pull our legs with that post, but that’s my reply all the same.

Chuckles - 30/11/2005 16:45

Liam, how would you feel if a woman you know was raped? It could be a friend, a sister, a girlfriend! Think about that! I just cannot believe you wrote what you did or even thought it. The majority of men I know have respect for women and would be horrified at what you have just said.

Diana - 30/11/2005 18:51

I agree with Liam 100%. Women don't doll themselves up for themselves, they do it to attract men. I'll be the first to admit it! If I put on a mini-skirt then I am definately in that phase that Liam talks about. I won't wear it otherwise! That's how you know when you are in that phase. When you feel more daring and feel really sexy when those type of clothes are on you! Very few married women go out looking like this because they have already attracted their mate and if they still do then they've picked the wrong one! Bring back the long skirt I say. Get the men guessing instead. Sure in this day and age they don't need any imagination anymore. God be with the days when men were turned on by the sight of an ankle!!

Green eyes - 01/12/2005 11:42

Diana get over yourself..I'm married 6 years and if i want to wear nothing going out its my business and nobody elses ..i cannot believe that people are living in the iron ages ..

Trish - 01/12/2005 13:18

Diana, when you are in this "phase" you talk of, do you feel that any man has the right to have sex with you?

Anonymous - 01/12/2005 13:29

Diana, contrary to what you may think, women do dress for themselves. Perhaps you may be a slave to adhering to men's desires but a truly confident woman will not dress for a man but for herself. Whatever a woman chooses to wear is entirely up to herself. She shouldn't have to worry about whether or not some low life will force himself on her just because she is looking sexy. You may not be aware of this but men do actually have brains and 99.9% of them, whether they are attracted to a woman or not, will understand what the word 'no' means. You say that with the Rape Crisis Centre behind me, I stand a good chance of winning my case. However, you are now suggesting that what happened to me was brought upon by myself. You want me to be an independent woman but when it comes down to it you are just conforming to the misogynistic world Liam seems to be living in.

Diana - 01/12/2005 15:03

Green eyes, If you go out wearing nothing you'll get arrested!!

Green eyes - 01/12/2005 18:23

you'd be surprised what you can conceal under a coat !!!!!!!

Rachel - 01/12/2005 22:03

Wow, Diana, you must be a very elderly lady to have such a strange (wrong) view on women\'s behaviour. I have never heard such a load of rubbish as i\'ve read here from Liam and i could\'ve respected Diana\'s views before she agreed with that person as i thought she must be just really old but now i just think you both should just move to iraq together and do all of us girls in this country a big favour, Diana you could go around wrapped up from head to toe and Liam you could have your way with her whenever you wanted!!!

Diana - 02/12/2005 12:25

Anon: I don't care what anyone says! Women do not dress for themselves. They dress to impress men! If I was to dress for myself I wouldn't be wearing a mini-skirt in the height of winter! I would keep myself good and warm in a nice long flowing skirt, lacy blouse and a warm cardigan or jumper over it. I would wear boots with nice fur on the inside. That would be dressing for myself. Why would I go out for myself dressed in a piece of cloth wrapped around my breasts and an even smaller cloth around my hips. On top of that I may have long boots but no tights! It would have to be tanned legs! Tanned legs in the freezing cold! There's usually no sign of a coat because it will take the look off the rigout! And you call this dressing for yourself! You must be mad!!

Green eyes - 02/12/2005 13:17

Diana, In all honesty how old are you? maybe if you were in your 70's i could understand your complete lack of knowledge of the younger womans fashion ..I am in my 30's and seriously if i want to put on a mini skirt and a low cut top it dosen't mean i have a sign saying "Come and get me"..You really should get it together..Its not right that you honestly think that a woman should almost go out wearing a polo neck covering every piece of visible flesh on her..Its a shame that you don't know what its like to dress in a way that makes you feel nice..

Anonymous - 02/12/2005 14:02

While it was not the dead of winter I was nevertheless wearing long boots, thick black warm tights, a skirt that was about 5 inches above my knee and a short sleeved top which barely went low enough to show my collar bone let alone my cleavage. You clearly have a completely misguided preconception of what women/girls who get raped act like or wear, which is exactly why you started your last post saying 'I don't care what anyone says'. You have no idea. You stand there on your high horse thinking you know everything but you don't. You think you can turn this discussion into a little light-hearted banter when all you are doing is being deeply offensive and hurtful. I pray that rape is something that never touches you, anybody in your family of any of your friends. I wouldn't wish it upon anybody. And I would appreciate if you had the respect not to call me 'mad' when I am trying to get through the hardest thing I have ever had to deal with.

Diana - 02/12/2005 17:22

Anon, It sounds as though you are well able to talk up for yourself! I wasn't referring to you when I mentioned the word "mad"! I am talking about the subject in general. However you seem to be under the impression that this topic is all about you! Well, it's not! And if you are so fired up about my views why don't you use your anger to go into court and get the fellows that came after you! You are quite capable! My attitude may not suit you but there are a few other views out there like mine. So I'm only repeating what is out there!

Green eyes - 02/12/2005 18:09

Diana, i think you're on the wrong discussion..You have no clue what its like to be violated by a man not alone 4..respect Anon ..She is talking from her heart give her and us a break..Go back to darning some thermal knickers..Its cold out there..

Rachel - 02/12/2005 19:35

It's so ridiculus really when you think about it. This isn't about 'what not to wear', Everybody in the world should have the right to wear what ever they want whenever they want! But saying that women who wear less deserve it is just plain stupid! That would be like murdering some one who really got one your nerves!! We might feel like it sometimes but we have to practice self restraint. It's exactly the same. The people who do not practice self restraint are the ones who get locked up (and probably get raped in prison) i like that irony.

Diana - 03/12/2005 03:05

Green Eyes, You know nothing about my life or any of the events inside in it. We all handle problems in our life the best way we can. If anon feels that I have no respect for her then that is her problem. The only lack of respect that I have is the fact that she cannot report this matter! I'm being accused of standing on my high horse, well I tell you this much, if I was raped by four men my high horse would come in very handy! When it comes to clothes you have to face the reality that there are a nice few queer hawks out there who feed into what vibes a woman can give off. To pretend that they do not exist is to leave yourself open to abuse! We are not living in an ideal world so we have to be extremely careful. And this means being careful with clothes whether you like it or not. Of course I would prefer if a woman could wear anything she likes! But because I live in the real world it's just not possible. There is too much danger out there! And I know that you could be all covered up and still get raped! However I genuinely believe that going out half-dressed is far more risky and far more likely to attract the wrong kind of people. But I tell you this much, there is no-one that would rape me and get away with it! By the way, green eyes what is wrong with wearing thermal knickers?

Green eyes - 05/12/2005 13:14

diana, the biggest lesson that you should learn in all of this is when to keep your opinions to yourself..Thank God i know nothing about you and you about me..I would choose not to know anything about you..Tell me does the same apply so in the summer..Don't wear shorts, t-shirts etc for fear people will look at you..I think you should respect the fact that some people are terrified of reporting crimes..I've been there i know what its like as no doubt a number of people reading this have too..I don't have a clue about your past but you should at least be supportive to anon in this very difficult you're like someone on a pulpit preaching down on the rest of us..sure we all know the reality that is this day and age but give her some respect ..

Diana - 05/12/2005 15:50

Green eyes, By replying to my posts you are choosing to know me. My opinion can't be that bad when the editor allows it to be posted. I also suspect that you are trying to see more in my posts than is actually there. There is nothing at all wrong with shorts and t-shirts for the summer but if you go out of your way to deliberatly appear sexy in them, then yes, there is. You can wear a pair of shorts and have all your bottom covered up or you can choose to have half of your cheeks showing! The same with t-shirts. Everybody can see what you are trying to do and you are actually dressing like this for attention. Nothing else. What kind of respect do you want me to show anon? That it's okey not to report rape or that I understand how she is feeling. Tell me this. Would you have respect for someone that allowed these four men to carry on and do it to another four women or more? Is that what you would prefer?

fifi - 05/12/2005 17:21

This is for Liam from the cave. I should be able to wiggle my pheromone laden bottom in front of your face without the fear of you jumping on me. Dont you realise that humankind are supposed to have become civilised? We have moved on from the cave & the club. Do you not think women get "horny"? Of course they do but they, like civilised men are able to control their emotions. Rape is about power. Cowards rape. Its the only way they get to feel control in their own sad dismal lives. As for muslim women being covered up? Give me a break. Muslims treat their women with absolute cometempt. Women to them are worthless, they come way down the pecking order, well after cows, sheep, dogs & anything else with a pulse. You & your words offend women. Im surprised your post was allowed at all.

Miryam - 06/12/2005 10:42

Anon 14:57 - I have never read sush nonsense in my life. You cannot in a free and democratic society go about \'BANNING\' this item of clothing or that. Do you really imagien woman who wear jeans or suits never get raped? WAKE UP. Diana - you say Keep those skirts for the husband\'s alone at home? What about woman who do not have a husband, boyfriend or partner. re these woman not entitled to dress up in a way that makes them feel good when they go out with their female friends? By the way, the last thing I would wear in the depths of winter is a flowing skirt - ooh that nasty breeze and I don\'t think i\'VE EVER WORN ANYTHING LACY EXCEPT PERHAPS AS A SMALL BABY. A nice pair of well cut trousers, warm boots and socks and figure hugging warm top. I might wear a jacket (I dislike coats) - if I felt like it. But, considering I have a partner for many yars now, when I go out with my girlfrinds, I dress for ME, so as I feel good. Sometimes I dress to show off something pretty to them also. LCollins. I have never heard such sick drivel in my life. So you would take us back into the middle ages, make every woman cover up completely in black all the time, while men can go about as they wish. This is not only discrimindation in all its forms but a warped and twisted view of human sexuality. RAPE is a power crime. If it were purely about sex why then would femle rape of males not be higher. Afterall males give off phermones too do they not. Tell us, how do you imagine modern standards (which humanity have evolved to) stifle the instinct to copulate? Afterall, sex is everwhere, T.V. MAGAZINES, ADVERTISING, MUSIC ETC. So would you have all females locked up all the time due to their pheremones wheras males and their pheremones can go where they wish? You really think all men are so utterly helpless that they cannot control themselves? Nonsense. Men are not PROGRAMMED ro rape any more then women are. How then do you explain the rape of elderly woman, the rape of women who are not considerd to be conventionally attractivce or the rape of children? Do you also believe that men should not make themselves attractive to women. Some women afterall dress attractively for their own self esteem and self worth and are entitled in a free and dempocratic society to do so. Not all arab countries observe the man-made convention of forcing women (another male domonated power struggle) to cover up but of the more extreme ones, do you REALY THINK RAPE NEVER OCCURS THERE? C O P O N. Of course in some of those more extreme societies it is the victim who is executed for the \"crime\" of sex. Maybe you believe in beheading, flogging and mutiliaion as well do you? No woman or indeed man, ever deserves to be raped EVER. I do think tho\', that young girls need to be aware going out that they should look after each other, so that the group knows where each other is and if a girl does get drunk that a taxi home is organised for her.

Diana - 06/12/2005 12:45

Miryam, How do men stick with shirts and trousers all the winter long or maybe a proper pair of shorts and a t-shirt in the summer. The only reason that women do not go mad after them and rape them is that they are properly covered up and don't actually turn us on. However the female makes sure that she exposes a lot of her body and what messages does this then give out. Maybe some men ARE actually programmed to rape. Maybe this has come down from the stone age. After all the men then seemed to be pretty rough. Maybe it's in their genes. Maybe there is nothing anyone can do about it. Maybe it will take another few centuries for this to actually shift if it will at all. If we are atually descended from the ape then the way we act would be fairly understandable!

Miryam - 06/12/2005 16:49

Diana men wear lighter shirts and trousers or shorts and t-shirts in summer and heavier tousers and even jumpers in Winter The only reason that women do not go mad after them and rape them is because rape is a POWER CRIME. Women do not have the same physical power as men. You call a sleevless t-shirt and cut off jeans on a well tomed guy in Summer, 'properly covered up' - interesting definition. And that does not actually turn us on - heck it turns me on. The sight of a sexy fit older guy in jeans and t-shirt even turns my Mam on and she's 62! That's becuase we're normal healthy females. We do not rape the guy in question becuase we are NORMAL. NO some men are NOT actually "programmed" to rape any more than either sex are 'programmed to be murderers, cannibals, abuse children or torture people. THIS IS CRAP of the first order. We no longer live in the stone age (except perhasp Liam) No we are NOT descended from the ape. Evolution suggests that we and the ape had a common ancestor and couple of million years ago.

Diana - 06/12/2005 22:44

Rape covers a larger area than power Miryam. Years ago I was asleep in bed when my husband was gone on a trip and I was woken up by a neighbour of mine feeling me in the bed. I was absolutly shocked! I gave him a dig and quickly pushed him out of the bed! This particularly individual is as weak as water and was very easy to shift. Just before I pushed him out of the door he looked at me with pleading eyes and told me that he was in a bad way (whilst hanging unto his privates!) and begged me to allow him to have his way! One great push and I had him out and I stood holding myself up against the door with my heart thumping like crazy! Thankfully he went away. Some men just can't control themselves this way and so it is not necessarily about power. My neighbour actually looked as though he was in agony! What do you make of this one? What's the big deal about a guy with a sleevless t-shirt and cut off jeans? All you are admiring here is a bit of arm and a bit of leg. Nothing extraordinary at all in my eyes! I'm not sure about your NORMAL definition. Are you trying to say that females are normal and men are abnormal. If both of us were NORMAL probably half of us wouldn't even be here now! Many things are passed down from generation to generation, through the genes and through breeding and rearing ect. How can you say that they are not when all the acts that you mentioned above happened long ago and are still happening on a daily basis today. To me that is CRAP! Incidentally who is to say that this common ancestor that the ape and ourselves were supposed to share wasn't a pure monster! The ape could be mild!

Anonymous - 07/12/2005 02:03

Diana, please don't tell me that rape is 'understandable', there is nothing 'understandable' about it. It doesn't happen because men are programmed to rape and it doesn't happen because of the stone age- it happens because there are some sick, sick people out there who think they have the authority to take away a woman's right to saying no and her dignity, by raping her. It is not an impulsive thing, it is a disgusting crime which a rapist CHOOSES to do. As for you thinking that I am interpreting this to be all about me, I do not think that for a second, I am merely responding with my experience and my own opinion. Seeing as your view is so distorted, I am using the knowledge of my own experience to show to you that rape is never ever asked for. You asked Green Eyes the question 'what kind of respect do you want me to show anon' as I 'let' these four men 'carry on' by not reporting it. You still have absolutely no idea. You weren't there. You don't see what I see every time I think of it. You don't go through what I do every day. You know nothing about it. They took my pride, my confidence, my strength- everything away from me. So don't start putting the blame on me and saying what is 'ok' and not ok for me to do. Frankly, your lack of understanding astounds me. Not only your lack of understanding towards my situation but also the entire issue of rape. You seem to completely trivialise the horror that rape is and rather than blame the man who carries out the rape, you are blaming the woman.

Diana - 07/12/2005 14:58

Anon: How are you picking up that I am blaming women? Why would I do that? How am I trivilising rape? I could use a question for everything that you said in your post! In your case you have a duty to report rape for the sake of your fellow women! If your pride, your confidence and your strength are taken away from you, are you going to allow other women to become weak over this as well. By reporting rape and stopping these men your strengths will come back. They have to! Think about that first person who reported child sex abuse by the priests. He was scared too! But more than likely now children will be far more protected in the future and will be listened to far better than they ever were. Rape by men is the same thing. Think how many women could be saved from the potential abuse of these four men. I am not trivilising rape at all!! I wouldn't dream of it! But in order to stop this women have to become more careful of these lunatics and they have to stand up for themselves more!

Miryam - 07/12/2005 14:59

So Diana, you neighbour came onto you - ina pretty gross fashion perhaps and you told him no and pushed him away. He asked again and you shoved him out the door. you were shocked repulsed and frightened but you were not raped. Had you said to him "Yes, go ahead so", you would not have been raped either as you had given consent (nless of course he threatened you - which is different). How I explain that is that he clearly had sexual tension / urges but seeing as he didn't over power and rape you he did clearly on that occasion, control him self. He was a man perhaps who had never heard of mastub*tion or pornography (or even prostitutes) to relieve his urges the way many single men (and woman) do. Some men DO NOT control themselves this way. They are certainly capable of it but are pathological - hence rape. No big deal about a guy with a sleevless t-shirt and cut off jeans. What big deal do you have then with a woman in skimpy clothes. No, I am saying that the vast majority or men and women are normal, except those who rape. They ae ABNORMAL, just like those who commit murder or child abuse. Can you please explain what you mean by youre statement: "If both of us were NORMAL probably half of us wouldn't even be here now" ? What do you mean by that? I am aware that the ape is capable of being mild and gentle, e.g. as they rear and care for theit young, just as humans can be.

Diana - 08/12/2005 00:13

Miryam, This man certainly had sexual tension all right but he wouldn't be so backward as to not know about pornography or masturbation. His wife (who had to be told of his actions) said it was my fault. That I must have led him on. Who knows? Maybe I did unconsiously! He went to counselling afterwards I was told. So I really don't know what his problem was. He did have a certain amount of control because this action was obviously thought out and he waited until my husband was gone on his trip. He also went as far as getting into the bed and starting to feel me. And that is as far as he got. A woman's legs, feet, toes, half-thighs, arms, hands, fingers, face, neck, hair and back no big deal. What's left after that, yes! Same goes for men! It's nice to see men a little bit agressive, not in the league of rape now mind you. But you said that women don't rape because they are normal. Men and women though are very different. So your normal cannot be applied to men. It's the aggressive nature of man that tends to keep the population going. We women control it. Oh, yes the ape can be very gentle. But in the case of rape you have to look on the ape at one of his most aggressive times.

Miryam - 08/12/2005 14:10

Diane, I don't think you vculd have led him on. Afterall, you were asleep in bed when he broke in. And given that he had a wife - with whom, he was, presumably, having sex on a fairly regular basis, his frustration could not have been that great. No, I don't think there is anything "nice" about aggression in men. There is physicality in sports but that is not same thing as pure aggresion (born of misdirection engergy - anger - which has been frustrated). Of course a man will be aggressive if he of indeed his family or threatening but that reaction is borne out of percieved neccessity. Of course, if her infant is threatening and woman can be aggressive too - up to the point of killing or destroying to save her child, which is part of her instinct as a mother and carer. A minimum of normal human standard of behaviour applies to all human beings regardless of the chemicals their brain produces or the contents of their underwear. These standards include a prohibition on rape, murder, canibalism, torture, incest and child abuse. Can you tell me how on earth you claim that the aggessive nature of man keeps the population going?? That's the greatest nonsense I've ever heard. AGRESSION IN IT'S EXTREME FORM KILLS - WHICH TENDS TO REDUCE THE POPULATION. Also, how on earth do women control the population, afterall, we ar ethe ones who give birth? Unless you are talking about contracpetives?? Are you? If so, remember also that men use condoms and also can get vasectomies.

Diana - 08/12/2005 17:55

Miryam, Perhaps I'm not explaining myself very well. I have used the wrong word really in agression. I just think that men in love especially have this kind of urgency for women and gets women going for having children. Even now, I'm probably not explaining this very well, but I think that men have more of a say in populating the planet than we realise. When men love us women they do it very well. This urges us on to have their children. It builds up an excitement that we wouldn't otherwise have. This is what I admire in men. When men are truly in love with women the look on their faces when you announce that you are pregnant is absolutely amazing. So it is not actually agression that I am talking about here, it is probably excitement. But we are going off the topic a bit here, we're supposed to be going along the lines of rape. This is just what I saw when you mentioned about women being normal because they don't rape. And even what I read in that sentence could be totally out. I also think that women are not put out as much about sex as men are. Yes, there are certainly some very sexy women out there but if you looked at the overall picture women tend to be the lesser of the two. My real message in this post though is that we women have to be more aware and more careful in the way that we dress out there whether we like it or not. There will always be other opportunities to dress the way we really want to e.g in the home with a boyfriend or whatever. But out on the streets particularly if you are on your own is really only looking for trouble if you are going to go around half-naked. And I am sure that if you had teenage daughters you would be equally upset about this as well.

Miryam - 09/12/2005 09:10

But woman in love also have an urgency - for the men they are in love with. This to me is separate from maternal instinct. I love my partner very much but I do not want children and I could name at least 9 women and 4 men who feel exactly the same way. Yet I know two women who have a huge maternal instnact and would go down the route of IVF by doner to have a child as these woman currently do not have a partner. Remember tho, that not matter how much a man may love or a woman may love, Love IS NOT rape. and Rape IS NOT Love - but just the opposite. No, what I said was that woman and men who do not rape, do not do so, becuase they are normal psychologically balanced and properly socialised human beings in this respect. Those who do commit rape, just like those who commit murder or child abuse are not normal human beings. Can you please explain what you mean by the statement the you \"think that women are not put out as much about sex as men are\" If you mena the we don\'t enjoy it or want it as much then I\'m afraid you\'re very wrong there. If you mean that we aren\'t put when we are not have sex ina relationship, then you are WAY wrong. But perhaps you can explain exactly what you DO mean. A woman sdoes not have to look conventionally sexy in order to want or enjoy sex. Honestly if it were down to dress, womanis sutis would not be raped. Women in Jeans would not be raped. Woman in trousers and sweaters would not be raped. Why should the way we dress be confined by some sort of moral code in society to our homes, only when we have partners. How can you say that a woman dressing up, who does not have a partner is \"looking for trouble\". This is the typically misogynistic attitude that eeds into the rapist mindset which irrationally and illogically seeks to blame the victim. How would you feel if you went out one day with a handbag on our shoulder and it was robbed and when discussing it on a forum, I said to you. \'Ah Diane, you only have yourself to blame, didn\'t you go out wiht it on your shoulder for all to see. You should have tucked it away under some long volumous clothing so no-one could see it.\' I know many woman with young daughters and sure, they advise them to look out for each other - especially if one of the group does end up having too much to drink (ok, it\'s not ideal but it happens to us all) and to make sure they all arange to meet up at a set time and place atthe end of the night if they et seperated. But these mothers do not turn inot the \'clothes police\' as you suggest they should.

fifi - 09/12/2005 12:05

Diane, I cant believe the words you say. There is NO NO NO excuse for rape. Rape is not about urgency or love or being in love. Its a power & control thing. To be honest, & ye can all slap me down here but I think men have a chink, a weakness within them in general. Why do we never hear of women raping or molesting? We just have the better nature. Dont give me this crap about cave men & urges. Men who rape are actually afraid of women. They see women as a threat. They are incapable of communicating & handling their own emotions. A woman should be able to walk down the street naked if she likes & not get pounced on. Simple as that.

Miryam - 09/12/2005 14:02

Actually, in south american trbal societies - where they do not have hang-ups about the human body, men and woman both go about, at all ages, with very little covering them and their rate of rape - stunningly is very much lower than ours. nd indeed a rare man who does commit it, is shunned by his group and treated as an outcast.

ReddFoxx52 - 11/12/2005 19:03

liam(lcollins) Posted: 29/11/2005 22:01 Liam, not all women will dress the way you dictate it just because you order them to! women have the right to wear what ever the want to because we have freedom of choice unlike some arab countries that treat women like a scratching post! we now live in 2005 and not in the dark ages... although i think i wont bother getting my time machine out and coming to get you, because you disgust me and every other woman who have read this page!!! as far as i am concerned, your belief that women are there for the taking is completely and utterly outdated and chauvanistic!!!

Rachel - 12/12/2005 11:15

Diana, i think everyone including myself have been picking up from this forum that you are blaming women, and because you are a woman everyone is finding that even harder to swallow, maybe i am way off here but i think you blame yourself for what happened to you, and i think you feel sorry for your neighbour and his family and somehow you feel responsible for it which you definately shouldn't. Even though you weren't raped i don't think it's fair to say your experience was any better or worse than someone who had been raped, no one else can understand how that effected you. I wasn't raped but i was abused as a child and it has messed me up a bit, and the biggest issue i had was that i felt so bad for hurting so much because i thought there was other people out there who have been through worse like rape and i felt that i didn't have a right to be so upset but i have always been assured that i do because it's my experience and no one could tell me i'm not hurting as much as the next person because they're not me. Sorry to go on a bit, i don't know if you get my point.

Diana - 12/12/2005 12:47

Rachel, It wouldn't be that I blame women at all but we all nearly do get bad frights in our lifetime and it makes us very cautious. That story that I gave was only one of many different episodes that I came across. My experience tells me that men do genuinely pick-up different messages off a woman when she is dressed scantily. This is what happened to me. When I had these clothes on, I got more looks and comments than I ever would have if I was covered up. One time in my twenties I was walking down a street with high boots and fishnet tights and mini-skirt and I was stopped by the guards and asked was I a hooker! I was horrified! Was that the impression that I was giving off with my clothes? I find today, being able to dress in my long skirts and frilly shirts (I know some people don't like them) that I can go about my life in a much more peaceful and safer way.

Miryam - 12/12/2005 15:04

Diane, sadly woman in long sirts and frilly shirts also get raped. AS DO WOMAN IN JEANS WOMAN IN SUITS AND WOMAN IN TOUSERS AND SWEATERS. Can you please explain what you mean by the statement the you "think that women are not put out as much about sex as men are"? Why should the way we dress be confined by some sort of moral code in society to our homes, only when we have partners? How can you say that a woman dressing up, who does not have a partner is "looking for trouble"? This is the typically misogynistic attitude that Feeds into the rapist mindset which irrationally and illogically seeks to blame the victim. Tell me, how would you feel if you went out one day with a handbag on our shoulder and it was robbed and when discussing it on a forum, I said to you. 'Ah Diane, you only have yourself to blame, didn't you go out wiht it on your shoulder for all to see. You should have tucked it away under some long volumous clothing so no-one could see it.' As for long skirts and frilly shirts - of course you are entitled to wear them. Aside from the fact that I would look qite ridculous in them, hey are just not me - so I choose not to wear them, and I am equally entitled to do so. Just out of interest Diane, what age bracket do you belong to? I'm 32.

Diana - 12/12/2005 18:38

miryam, I am 46 years of age. Maybe I am still feeding into the times that I grew up with and your group may have more of a modern outlook than I have. When I was about 15 or 16 and dressed scantily in our town, one was regarded as a slut and a whore. I know these are terrible words that women were subjected to and maybe I got conditioned into believing this somewhat. We got desperate looks for the way we dressed and were subjected to gossip all the time. Out here in the country where I live this attitude still prevails. In the business that I am in at the moment I was accused by women of trying to take their husbands off them for 'showing off my tits'. When I wore a mini-skirt you should have seen the women sneer at me. I eventually couldn't stick this any longer and decided that I had better blend in with my tracksuit bottoms, baggy sweatshirts and long skirts. Now I'm their friend would you believe and am no longer looked on as a threat! Having said that I have also eliminated those sleazy men that I never even wanted to associate with. So there is a certain amount of truth in this. You talk about blame and you gave an example about a handbag being robbed. You also said that it would be awful if you said that I only had myself to blame. Well, blame I can assure you is ripe and well in this day and age. I am involved in conversations on smoking and all that is drummed down my throat is that it is my own fault for smoking!

ReddFoxx52 - 12/12/2005 23:46

im 19 and i dont go out mini skirts and low cut tops yet i dont go out in frilly shirts and long skirts.

Miryam - 13/12/2005 11:26

46!!, it's hardly ancient - Diane you are only 14 yeas older than myself. A whore, is someone who has s*x for money, it;s is not a maner of dress. A slut, is a man or woman, who, (as far as I know anyway) regularly has more than one sexual partner at the ame period of time. I don't belive you that out in the country, this attitude still prevails!!! Obviously, I'm not calling you a liar but I too live in the country and just find that so hard to believe in this day and age. And I'm astounded at the attitude of the women who accused you of stealing their husbands. Presumably these woman had various body parts of theoir own that their husbands could happily look at. There attitudes were pure small-mindedness. Promiscuity is not in an item of clothing or a style but in a persons mindset. Personally, I think tracksuit bottoms and baggy sweatshirts look slovenly and most unbusinesslike. I don't wear them anywhere except the gym (or perhaps old ones whne I'm painting) As for smoking, well maybe you started 30 years ago when there wasn't as much known as now about the dangers. And maybe you cannoyt stop becuase ou are addicted becuase of the nicotene the manufactueres have added to keep you smoking. Or maybe you enjoy smokign and feel it calms your nerves and helps you socialise. In which case sure smoke away!

Diana - 13/12/2005 23:47

miyam, That was the attitude that I encountered when I came out to the country over 20 years ago. I was definately seen as a threat after coming from a town myself. I wore stuff that they had never seen before but I swear to you that you genuinely could not keep wearing them because of the awful looks from the women. It just wasn't worth the hassle and I had loved clothes I really did. Now my interest I must say is quite poor and I do honestly find my whole wardrobe boring. Acceptance of one's clothing can move into many areas and can be quite unexpected ones. Think of the ad on the telly at the moment where a girl goes into work too dressed up to be a waitress! It is fairly comical. Well, this is the way people form opinions of all of us outside in the world. You may think that you look stunning but others see differently. This is why you certainly can give a different impression simply by the way that you dress.

Miryam - 14/12/2005 11:52

Diane, I would be fascinated to know what pat of the country you moved to. Sure 20 years ago was only early to mid-80's. I was heading towards my teens then growing up in a country area. We wore, shocking pink mini's, bright yellow tops, acid green leggings. Ok the colours probasbly looked a fright on us but it was the fashion at the time and we loved it. I suppose it depends on what stage in life your at. As little children we love having Mammy's approval and being told we look like a princess in our frilly dress. As a teen the groups approval is crucial and we waer what ever's in vogue. (Really I MUST HAVE LOOKED A FRIGHT IN SHOCKING PINK!) In our 20's, out attire must be appropriate to whatever career we are in and the position we aspire to. When we hit out 30's and have a chunk of life as well as career experience we cop ourseles on, stop giving a damn about what the jo in the street thinks about what we wear and wear whatever WE feel comfortable in. I would be fascinated as to know what you wore that any part of the country would not have seen in the mid 80's. A pal of mine wore all black skin-tight everything, including black lipstick and nail polish except her hair, which was BRIGHT GREEN!! Of couse she was the ripe old age of 16! Another girl loved burnt orange and ochre yellow kaftan style clothing. Ah she got odd looks but it never seemed to bother her. Actually now I think of it, it wasn't just the youth. My dad wore the loudest checks I've ever seen (and he was a big big fellow) usually with bright primary colour shirts! I think we would all have to be pretty shallow (or just very young) to form an opinion on some one just by what they wear.

Diana - 14/12/2005 15:58

Miryam, It sounds like you were more of a fashionable dresser than I was. I was wary of bright colors but I did like bright pink. It was in my 20's that I dressed my best. I was great at putting colors together and this is where I got most of my compliments. My biggest asset was my long blonde hair and I never had to do anything with it. Wearing it long and flowing was always the best way. When I came out to the country I was a very feminine dresser. It always had to be skirts and frilly shirts. Romantic, romantic and romantic was my scene. I loved short skirts and extra long skirts in particular. I hated knee-length skirts or below the knee. They had to be above the knee or right down to my ankles. I loved tights and high heels. Not huge high heels now, mind you, just enough to feel comfortable. The long skirt had to have movement so it would have to fan out at the end. A stright skirt would give me the horrors! I hated trousers with a passion and I still do. No woman should be in a pants except for tight leggings. These are more feminine I think. But these leggings got me into trouble with the women as well. They looked on them as tights and I got many a look or whisper from these as well. One man told me that I was too sexy in them! The women that come into my business rarely wear skirts or dresses. It would have to be a wedding or communion or very special occasion. It is nearly always pants and jumpers. Nothing else. I would say that the country areas are very backward when it comes to clothing. But now I look the same as them and I have lost my identity! And to make it worse my long blonde hair is always tied up in a pony tail now! At this stage I need a miracle!

Miryam - 14/12/2005 17:08

Gosh Thanks very mich Diane, Looking back at old photos I think I looked a fright but I have the ability to laugh at myself! Personally I HATED anything frilly, still do except for lingerie. An on the knee skirt is very unflattering to my leg line. That said, I don't weat skirts very often as I found short ones very cold and long ones unwieldy. High heels I like, but not for business wear. Tights I HATE (I wear stocking instead) as they feel so unhygenic to me. Trousers I love, especially for business wear but great for casual socialising too. They're warm and comfy and shapely. Nothing wrong with leggings either but I find them very casual. But if you have the figure for them and like them, I say go ahead. dresses - I own two. But semi-formal for parties. jumpers - ughh!! Ok, it it;s sub-zero i suppose. I have long hair too but in work I nearly always wear it in a bun or a pony tail but that's just conveneince and for the sake of tidiness. But I mean it's only CLOTHES. I say ear whatever makes you feel good.

Diana - 15/12/2005 00:02

miryam, It would be just great if you could wear what you liked in this world. But you would have to find a special group of friends who felt the same way. In life though we are constantly moving, picking up new people here and there and casting off other people. There is no way in the wide world can you possibly wear what you want because there is only a certain amount of acceptance out there. It starts off in school. You are being conditioned to wear a certain uniform and at all times you must have the whole outfit together. Why they have women wearing ties in school beats me? Where are they going to be wearing these ever in the workplace? In the secondary school where I send my kids they have to wear the skirt short. I have no problem with that but the tights that they wear under them have to be green and green tights are impossible to get. So then you have to resort to bobby socks. All through the winter they are often perished going to school while the boys are in their warm trousers with maybe long johns underneath! Surely this should be stopped and our girls should be allowed to keep themselves warmer for the winter! They can't wear several earings or studs in their noses or change their hairstyles to different colors. No creativity at all can come into play for our girls when they are inside in secondary school. My guess then is that they go stone mad when they leave school and that is why some of them go around half-naked! In fact we all came under that bracket, so I reckon that we have two extremes here. The workplace is the same way. If there was more freedom overall in both of these areas I think that we would be on the road to really being able to be ourselves and be more comfortable in what we wear. Being at this extreme especially after leaving schools creates a type of shock in society as well and maybe that is where all the nasty looks and comments are coming from. In the long run though it stifles everyone's creativity (having to conform) and you never really find yourself clotheswise.

Miryam - 15/12/2005 16:01

I dunno, generallyt I do wear what I like. I get some great comments in work as I have odd taste in shirts, but then I wear very plain trousers and fitted pinstripe jackets. Generally my friends accept me for me. We long ago stopped judging each other by our clothes or hairstyles. Certainly we give advice and opinions but that is all. But then we all have very different (and somewhat eclectic) styles. In work we pick up new people here and there and cast off other people. But true friends and family genrally stay with us, I find. Nowadays and certainly since I HIT MY LATE 20'S, I do wear what I want and if people look at my clothes before decidin to accept me then they really miust be very shallo and I would have to think - do I really want this persons acceptance? Exvcellent point about the school uniform. It is designed to enforce conformity and stifle creativity and take awayt individuality bt of course it dosn't work. Kids go to more and moe extremes to compete on hairstyles, shoes, sports kit and jewellery. women wearing ties in school? Utter stupidity. Take a look at schools in germany or France. Students wear jeans or whatever they want. here ois no competition and nothing I saw anayway looked outrageous. In my secondary school, we could wear the skirt any lenght with tights or socks I'm very surptrised to hear hat tights skirts atre compulsary for the girls wheras the boys wear trousers. In the little community schools near me, the girls can wear skirts or trousers as they wish. Anythign else would be rightly regarded as sexual discrimination and woman in the workplace cannot be forced to wear skirts where the option to wear trousers is available. It would not be an infringement of rules if your girls wore uniform trousrs as it is permissable for the boys. When I ws in secondary school long earings weren't allowed (somethign to do with safety during sports) but sevral girls wore nose rings and one had a pierced eyebrow. It's JUST JEWELLERY Make-up had to be 'discreet'. Not sure what that was supposed to man as I never wore it in seconary school. We coiuld have any hair colour or style we want to and when I look at my niece, it seems that even these days she seemas to have a different hair colour every week! I remember one girl in my secondary school had her hair died pink! The head nun expressedher displeasre at this so the following week the same girl had it died blue - ELECTRIC BLUE!! I don't see the workplace as being restrivtive at all. UNLESS OF COURSE YOU WEAR A UNIFORM LIKE IN THE BANK OR WORK IN A SOLICITORS OFFICE WHERE SUITS ARE REQUIRED. In work I tend to wear what is confortable and flatteres me as well as what I like.

Diana - 16/12/2005 01:49

Miryam, Your secondary schools sounded a lot less stricter than the one that I have my girls going to. I had a huge argument with the head teacher about a nose piercing that I had allowed my daughter to get during the summer holidays. But it was no good, she wouldn't give in at all. I left the office disgusted. Your own style of clothing doesn't seem too far out of order except for the odd looking shirt of course but tell me this Miryam, would you have the courage to go into work with say your buttons opened half ways down, an 18 inch mini-skirt, stockings that would show off the top of them if you bent over and 4 inch high-heels. Tell me honestly and truly if you would be able to do this and your working colleagues wouldn't blink an eye. Remember now that you are not half-naked but more of a tease than anything else. Wouldn't that rig-out be enough to go out on the town with? Why then do somegirls insist on putting a bare bit of cloth around them, and a 'belt' around the waist. No bra and completly backless at the back. You wouldn't see the tops of anything because they wouldn't have them on but you could see her knickers plainly when she bends over! Surely this is taking things too far and has to give out some strange messages especially when it is in the height of winter?

Miryam - 16/12/2005 11:56

No, I would not wear a mini skirt, stocking and a shirt unbuttoned half way down, into the office as I feel it would unprofessional on me and four inch heels worn all day are a total no-no for me. Th there are woman who wear dungarees (and not when they're pregnan), long flowly cardigans, frillyshirts and even little demin mini-dresses and no-one seems to bat an eyelid. The outfit you describe, I might wear on a night out tho. Wouldn't go bra-less and I tend to flop. No problem showing off my middle in a casual social situation, provided it's above 18 degrees ouside tho'.

Flame - 20/12/2005 00:24

Oh my god , how can tis discussion even be happening? As a woman i feel sorry for any woman that has been raped for being "a flirt" .Im sorry but where is the line ,is it a smile ? A chat n a smile at the bar ? What ? Please tell me because i,ll stop going out in case i might smile r sumting .Rape is an awful terrible crime under any circumstance but please dnt try and justify it .

Diana - 20/12/2005 23:52

Flame, no-one is trying to justify rape! We are just trying to stop people attracting these kind of people. We are not sure how the rapist mind works. But maybe scanty clothing drives him on. How do we know? I would prefer to be safe than sorry. You would have to set up a kind of experiment for a certain length of time in order to see would rape fall. The only possible way you could do this is to ban this type of clothing for a while but I can't see this happening can you? And I know that some people would wonder why they should. But rape is in pretty high figures so something is definately adding to the problem.

Miryam - 21/12/2005 10:49

Diane, you say 'We are just trying to stop people attracting these kind of people'. What about elderly woman who are raped, how do we stop them "attracting these kind of people" What about women in jeans and jumpers who are raped how do we stop them "attracting these kind of people" What about women who are not conventionally attractive who are rapd how do we stop them "attracting these kind of people" What about woman in suits, who are raped, how do we stop them "attracting these kind of people" What about mentally disabled women who are raped, how do we stop them "attracting these kind of people" What about women who are raped by their husbands, how do we stop them "attracting these kind of people"? This kind of "experiment" is ewell under way in countries which demand that woman be totaly covered up and believe me, rape is sadly very much in existence. But becuase a cultue hat covers up womans bodies enourages an ideology of shame about the natural body and about sex, rape is hoorrifically under-reported to the authorites in these places. The only cuntries which seek to "ban this typoe of clothing" are misgynistc theorcracies. Is that really where you want to live? Is that where you want to bring up your daughters? Oh yes, somehtHinG is adding to the problem of rape. IT'S CALLED RAPISTS.

Diana - 21/12/2005 14:19

Miryam, I get what you are saying but when my daughter goes out scantily clothing why have I got warning bells in my head? How come I am more relaxed if she goes out better clothing? It's because I know deep down that the risk is higher of her being raped. We don't get these warning bells for nothing and my experience has shown me that there is truth in this. Much more men will look at you when you are scantily dressed than without. Men want to see breasts in particular and seeing a knickers could drive them mad! So if you walk into a bar full of men you can be guaranteed that nearly every man in that room will go out of his way to have a look at you. And if you watch the scene carefully there will be a few of them who will keep turning to have a look.

Miryam - 21/12/2005 15:42

Diane - you say "seeing a knickers could drive them mad" - what sort of savages do ou take men for? Do you really know a whole lot of men like that?? If that's the case, yu have my sympathy you really do. what is it that men don't go mad altogher when they see an actress scantily cld on telly, or a lingerie ad or the underwear section of the clothign catalog and heaven forbid they should wander into the bra and pantis section of the local department store.

Diana - 21/12/2005 22:59

Miryam, I grew up in a town that had many of these kind of men. We were all told as children to watch out for them. I was followed home by one very dangerous man in particular but I challenged him and he ran away. But that same man went on to kill two prostitutes a few years later. While he was in the town he used to tie up young kids to poles and strip them naked. He was very very dangerous. On another occasion I was down on our strand when another well known pervert came on the scene and starting winking at me. I was 12 years of age at the time but thankfully I knew the rocks in the area very well, raced over them and flew up a hidden pathway that I knew. From the road above I could see him coming over the rocks after me! There are plenty of those kind of men out there Miryam. We had a great laugh at one particular individual who only came on the scene in the summertime. He used to peep over this very high wall at all the women and children below in the strand. When he was finished looking he used to play with himself up against the wall! We used to find this hilarious and used to throw stones down at him to move him on. So Miryam, I certainly do know what I am talking about! That is why men like these wouldn\'t want to be given an inch. If you don\'t know men like this Miryam, then you also have my sympathy because you haven\'t seen what reality is really like. If you honestly think that women and children are safe here in Ireland and that we can all go out and dress whatever way we like then I am afraid that you are living in a fantasy world. We have to be more careful and anyway an awful lot of rapes are carried out by people that we know! How scary is that?

JOHNNY - 22/12/2005 02:29

women should be able to walk around naked,if they wish to and remain unmolested.unless a man receives express permission to have sex with a woman he should nt touch her or molest her physically of verbally. we are not out of control animals.

Miryam - 22/12/2005 10:51

Gosh Diane, sounds like you grew up in a really horrible area (no offence or insult or disrespect intended). But it seems to me that your town was filled with all sorts of pervs and horrid fellows who had deep psychological problems. You have my sympathy. If you honestly think that you can protect woman by covering them in head to toe then I am afraid it is you who are living in a fantasy world. In countries where women are covered from head to toe, the female body becomes somethign mysterious and sex becomes forbidden - rape figures are truely shocking. YES - many rapes occur where the woman knows her attacker. Do you really thing a long skirt and polo neck jumper would protect her from a sicko who could do that to a woman he knows.

Diana - 22/12/2005 13:42

Miryam, The women in those countries that you speak of are at another extreme. If one can't see anything at all there would be a major curiosity element to that. What I would be saying is to follow the middle ground and be reasonable in your clothing. Yes, you could be right when you say that the men in my town had psychological problems and probably most men who do rape actually come under this bracket. But you have to be suspicious and you have to be able to discriminate. Growing up in a town with these kind of people gave me an insight into the way they look and the kind of actions that show what kind of people that they are.

killia - 09/01/2006 15:28

I agree with Diana. Rapists are out there and women seem to forget this. It's understandable and of course we should be able to do what we want, I'm all for that, but the world isn't like that. It's a dangerous and unjust world if you're a woman. We surely know by now that our society and having rights etc does not automatically protect women from all the bad things. We're better off looking out for ourselves the old fashioned way! Because it's the only way as the unfortunate previous poster is finding out. I'm a young woman but was always aware of perverts around the town that you'd have to stay away from. Everyone knew. It breaks my heart to see vulnerable young women dressing in very provocative ways, not realising how dangerous it is.

Miryam - 10/01/2006 09:33

Diane, what eactly would you describe as reasonable clothing. Those living under sharia law regard a burqua as reasonable. I think this is totally unreasonable. Those on the nudist colonly regard no clothing at all as reasonable - do you think this is reasonable. It seems very reasonable in tribal societies also.

Diana - 10/01/2006 12:42

Miryam, The burqua seems to be following a religious set-up really doesn't it. I think here in Ireland some of us want to find the tribal society! I admire all the different societies in the world but they could also be watching us on the way we dress. My kind of clothing would be to show off a very small amount if you are going out at night. I can't see the need to show off mostly everything. Killea describes it well up above. Dressing provocatively is designed to attract. If anything we should be detracting maybe not to the point of wearing burques (although we have never actually tried this one) but in order to attract genunine people. It's really your personality rather than your clothes that should dominate. There are very few women who can even feel comfortable in their clothes when they are dressed inappropriatly. The majority of them feel self-conscious or uncomfortable anyway. But they are trying to be different and to appear as if they are oozing in confidence. My experience however tells me different. It is the person who picks comfortable warm clothing with little or nothing showing that is the more confident after.

Rob - 10/01/2006 20:07

I have just come accross this thread while I was looking up 20 most recenly postings, I started reading from the top and there was too much reading to go through all the entries. I did get the jist of it, The unfortunate anonomous who had a little too much to drink being raped by 4 cowerds, Liam's ranting, Diana's replies. I think liam and Diana may be the same person, or at least diana is a Male. Liam or Diana how would you feel if your Mother, wife, or sister were taken by 1 never mind 4 crazed male cowerds and subjected to a voilent attack of any kind? I personally would have no problem dealing with this type of cowerd, once I was sure they were the culprit. They would not be in a position to repeat their crime. I would not depend on the law if the victim was one of my family. They would know why they were being dealt with. I'll say no more for now except that we should give the original annomomous as much support as possible and totally ignore the likes of Liam and Diana, they (or he)are just thriving your replies.

fifi - 11/01/2006 12:56

Rob I like your reply. theres a lot to be said for taking the law into your own hands if justice doesnt prevail.

Diana - 11/01/2006 13:49

Rob, we're not entitled to our opinions now at all are we?

Miryam - 11/01/2006 14:31

Sorry, am replying spasmodically as I don't seem to be getting mail updates on new postings Does this happen to anyone else? Yes, Diane, your kind of clothing would be to show off a very small amount going out at night. And you are entitled to do this. Am I and other not also entitled to wear whatever clohign we feel comfortable in. As for a burqua, and any other form of clothign denoting a woman as unequal is insyulting and degrading to me as a female.

Diana - 11/01/2006 16:51

Miryam, I'm half afraid to reply after what Bob said about me thriving on replies. I just enjoy writing and talking about various topics but it seems that I am upsetting people. That's half the problems we have in this country. There is really no such thing as free speech because people get insulted too easily and take everything personal. Surely we should be celebrating people's opinions after all variety is the spice of life and it gives us an insight into why there are bigger problems in the world like war and rape. Of course Miryam, you are entitled to wear what you like if you really feel comfortable. All I am trying to do is to warn you and keep you safe in this uncertain world. We are only all trying to look out for one another afterwards.

killia - 11/01/2006 17:39

Miryam makes a good point earlier on about all sorts of women getting raped no matter what they're wearing. I've been reading recently about the new Global women's rights iniative that Mary Robinson is involved in. The whole thinking behind it is that women's basic human rights just aren't where they should be, all around the world. I think that it's certainly the sad case here in our own country. Just look around at the other threads about women being raped and others being virtual prisoners in their own house or being beaten by family members. Most of the time there just seems to be no way out for them because they're afraid, liklihood of prosecutions etc. Surely women's rights are in the stone age when there are laws but women can't make any decent use of them because they don't protect us.

Rob - 11/01/2006 21:02

Diana you are of course entitled to your opinion, but be honest do you really agree 100% with Liam? the only way anyone could agree 100% with Liam would be if they were liam, or at least a badly informed male. I wont say a man because his attitude is imature to say the least and a male is not a man untill he is mature. Lets not give any encouregment to the rapists by expressing that type of opinion. Should a person not have a hand-bag in case there is a snatcher about, or a nice car incase a thife thinks they are asking for it to be robbed. I could go on and on, you must see that we don't want a society like that. Lets root out the criminals and we'll have less victims, don't blame the victims. Where would it end.

Diana - 12/01/2006 01:29

Killea, There is no doubt that women's rights are in the stone age and one of the main reasons I think is because women are too afraid. I am very fond of Mary Robinson because she is a very genuine human rights person and seems to have great empathy with people. Women I believe are at a disadvantage because of their physical strength which doesn't match the males. This I think is at the root of problems. Bob, no I am not Liam and I am not male. So being a woman I have to be on my guard where rapists are concerned. But I can understand what Liam is trying to say. Some women can give out the wrong signals and can confuse males. I have often just been friendly with some men and they have got the impression that I was interested in them sexually. And it would have been the furthest thought from my mind! I can't see any encouragement here towards rapists. If anything I would be telling them that they are being watched and we know who you are. We women have to be stronger in cases like this and we have to stop being afraid once and for all. In anon's case above I am trying to empower her to take action rather than being afraid but maybe it is too much for her to do at this moment in time.

Miryam - 12/01/2006 08:50

Diane, please don't be afraid to reply. Sure, I get upset / annoyed or even irritated - there are certain thongs I am passionate about but I don't easily get insulted. I don't know about vcelebrating all opinions. I cerainly wouldn't clebrate Liam's opinion on this. Thanks for looking out for us all tho'.

Naomi - 12/01/2006 11:56

I have read previous posts and am in awe of some of the opinions being addressed. Firstly I would like to point out that if we were to subscribe to the notion that people like Liam seem to subscribe to the world would certainly be an even scarier and darker place than it is now and at the moment it seems quite bleak. A couple were this week jailed for the rape of a 12 week old baby , tell me Liam was this caused by some primal need to procreate??. I went out last weekend with my friend she wore a high neck top and a short skirt and I wore jeans and a low cut top. Do you think that this is a good compromise for us , we were both just half exposed, so therefore were we only half as likely to be raped ??? A man as old as my own father grabbed my breasts as I crossed the dance floor, tell me Liam was I wrong to feel violated and upset by this?? should I just have accepted that it was my fault because of what I chose to wear?? should I be happy that he was able to control his urges and refrain from having unconsentual sexual intercourse with me?? Phew… thank god I wore jeans last weekend. I have no qualms in admitting that I love how it feels to get dressed up and like any female I appreciate the admiring glances I get dressed up because it makes me feel good about myself I get dressed up to make myself attractive. I am a 24 year old woman with a strong career and my own home I work hard and I am entitled to feel good am I not? Rob is the only other man I have seen in this conversation , and I would hope that he and not Liam is a far better reflection of the men in Irish society. Incidentally my neighbour put up a new fence and I hate it my primal need to protect my territory has kicked in would it be ok Liam if I attacked him with a club from behind and tore down the fence, (only of course if I get an uncontrollable urge to do so)??

Diana - 12/01/2006 13:54

Miryam, Thanks for your post. Went back up along the line to read Liam's post again. I still understand what he is trying to say but more importantly he made me think of how some men could come to his conclusion. I don't know whether you agree with this or not but if you watch nature programmes they show up what Liam says very well. The animals are most often shown to be domineering the female. Only recently I watched one about an unusual ape who was king of the forest and he had every woman falling at his feet! I mean what do human beings pick up from these programmes and when science tells us that we descended from apes humans could be taking this on board and make connections in the real world with humans. We all know the great pop stars or football stars who have women falling at their feet. We need to wake up from this and get over ourselves as women!

Miryam - 12/01/2006 15:17

Diane, this is EXACTLY the attitude I MEAN. You have often just been friendly with some men and they have got the impression that you were interested in them sexually. Their confusion and wrong interpretation of signals is NOT your fault. And you making it so just gives them credence.

Rob - 13/01/2006 00:17

Good on ya Naomi, you put it very well. I can't get with these ladies who hold with the animal instinct thing. Some animals eat their young, The biggest Bull gets all the cows etc. We have moved on since this. This idea of women falling down at famous footballers these are not your average women but silly minded imature girls who think they can ride the wave of fame, a few make it but rarly will the relationship stand the test of time. I just despair of some of these postings. Real men want real women for their lifelong partner. Back to the animal thing, vicious animals would be shot on sight, maybe this is what we should do with the model of male that Liam describes.

Diana - 13/01/2006 03:23

Yes, That is the way it is here in Ireland. It will always be your fault if something goes wrong and there is nothing anyone can do about it. So you either ignore them or you give them nothing to say. It is your choice. When that man handled your breasts some would say that it was because your blouse was too low. Some will say that he is a dirty old man. Others will claim that he was only fooling. But no-one will go over and intervene on your behalf. And yes, your friends will tell you that it could have been worse and he could have raped you! God forbid if you were drunk and got raped because again it is your fault for being drunk. And whatever you do don't smoke because you might be out there on your own and some fella might come along and attack you and again it will be your fault for smoking in the first place! Go for a walk on your own? No way. I have often tried that only to be told that I must be mad for going on my own in case I would be attacked. So yes. That is the way it is for us women. We can never do anything right!

Naomi - 13/01/2006 09:52

Thank you Liam and your absolutely right Diana, and the sad thing is if we were to follow all the "rules" to protect ourselves we would be under constant house arrest and dressed like women in the Victorian London covered neck to ankles but rape exists in all facets of society clothing has little to do with it women are raped and assaulted in kimonos in short skirts in jeans in shorts in bikinis in habits in dresses in saris in uniforms, drunk , unconscious conscious the list is endless BUT when we hear that a woman was attacked while wearing a short skirt or after having had a few drinks we suddenly semi-justify the actions of the assailant . this is not the way to address this problem, I make a very concious effort to avoid classically dangerous scenarios and situations ie. I dont walk alone at night , I stay in well lit areas with plenty of people I always have my house alarm on when I am in my house alone , I sleep with my mobile phone beside my bed , if I am walking alone I often pretend to be talking on the phone and if I pass a man or a group of men I say out loud to my imaginary friend on the phone exactly where I am silly little things like that I do to make myself that bit safer and even at that it shouldnt be necessary. If we continue to perpetuate the MYTH that men cannot control their urges we are giving them permission to carry out these heinous acts , and in perpertuating this myth we are even perhaps convincing men and boys coming into manhood (who otherwise would not have thought of it) that the desires they feel are URGES and PRIMAL UNCONTROLLABLE INSTINCTS. there is a big difference between desires and needs for example were I to meet a gentleman in person who express the views that Liam did in his above posts I would have a strong desire to kick him very hard in an unmentionable place HOWEVER as a person with morals and scruples who suffers from no mental illness or disability I am in complete control of my actions and take complete responsibility for them no matter how strong my desires may be.

Rocky - 13/01/2006 10:53

Nobody deserves to be raped, full stop. However this is the real world and people need to take responsibility for their actions. If a female goes out wearing provoctive clothing and flirting then she may be putting herself in a dangerous position. She may be feeling confident, making a statement etc. but she may be also attracting attention for all the wrong reasons. Of course everybody has a right to wear what they wish. A Celtic football suporter has a right to wear his/her team colours, but it would be irresponsible and down right stupid to wear these colours while walking down the Shankill road! If sombody actually did this and got attacked or even killed, would they deserve it? Same logic applies.

Miryam - 13/01/2006 11:41

No no no Diane, it is NOT always your fault if something goes wrong and there IS something we can do about it. This is EXACTLY the sort of attitude that feeds into the mind of the rapist and gives credence to his abominable and deplorable actions. As for nature programs - we are not animals in he wild. WE (most of us anyway) HAVE EVOLVED inot civilised decent human beings - but not from the ape. The theory is that Humans and the ape had a common ancestor. Some women might like men to be dominating / domineering type but I certainly do not. I have a man that sees me as his partner and equal in life. All I see in Liams posts, I'm sad to say, is the arrogant ignorant misogynistic nonsensical riubbish that it is - the type of thing that also gives license to the sick and twisted rapist mindset. Liam (he never seems to follow up any posts by the way) is it your fault if your nice shiny new car gets broken into becuase you didn't cover it in black and took it out when it was all shiny and washed and new - hece giving theives and uncontrollable urge to break into it? Or will the judge say that no, it is he fault of those who broke into it?

Diana - 13/01/2006 13:27

Naomi What you appear to say is that what women wear has nothing to do with rape. You then go on to say that you would never walk alone at night and if you were walking alone during the day then you would pretend that you were talking on the phone. To this I would say why not? Why can't a woman walk anywhere on her own? Why should a woman feel that she has to pretend to be on the phone? This is another type of fear for a woman. So maybe us women have our own classical dangerous scenarios. Mine would be going out half-naked and yours would be walking alone.

Naomi - 13/01/2006 13:56

I dont think that Diana actually thinks that it is the womans fault she is just pointing out that this is the way people see it... It does not mean it is true. and Rocky as to your post which basically says that a woman is inviting negative attention in dressin herself attractively I would say to you that this is total an utter rubbish, again the point that WE SHOULD NOT HAVE TO WORRY about these things needs to be addressed , the solution is not to change the way women conduct themselves/dress the solution is to eliminate these men from our soceity by making it clear that NO MATTER what a woman wears there is no case to be made for forcing yourself on her are you seriously suggesting that in every pub/club/cinema or any number of other social or even work situations that women should dress like nuns? If this is the case you are suggesting wiping out almost every advancement feminists have made over the last 50 years. If we give in to this we are condoning it. Your comparison to a man walking down the shankhill road in a celtic jersey is ( and please believe that I genuinely do not mean to sound rude) absurd you cannot compare the two. You are taking one very specific set of criteria and I believe your example is completely out of context

Naomi - 13/01/2006 17:07

Diana that is exactly my point is not that I dont think dress is a relevant factor my point is no matter how you dress there are men who will find different things attractive for many rapists the illusion of innocence or prudishness is a huge turn on so if a woman is to go out in reserved clothing is she then responsible for her rape if this is the kind of attire that attracts her rapist there is no way of dettering a rapist other than to instill in men the notion that it is inherently wrong and inexcusable if we were to look at 100 rapes there would almost certainly be no real common thread in terms of the clothing the women wear. To say that a woman is attracting rapists because of her attractive clothing is tandemount to saying a paedophile is attracted to a child because we let them wear shorts in the summer!! it is not a factor it is an excuse. I am just as likely to be attacked in my jogging tracksuit as I am in a skirt.

Diana - 13/01/2006 17:56

But how do you propose to instill the subject of no rape what-so-ever Naomi into men. In some cases you may only be giving them ideas. How do you teach this one? We women have to genuinely ask ourselves questions with regard to clothing as well I believe. What exactly are we trying to accomplish with our clothing? If we are trying to attract a male and feel that we have a better chance by the clothing we wear, then we have to acknowledge that one. A problem can start when we may have attracted someone whilst wearing provocative clothing for even one night but hadn't attracted someone before with more conventional clothing. This then tells us that we have to dress a certain way otherwise things won't happen. But how can we truly be ourselves then? The challenge I believe is to be able to attract people whatever you are wearing and this would include the long skirts, frilly blouses, tracksuits, suits ect. Young girls in this day and age are actually feeling under pressure to dress provocatively because everybody does it and they won't fit in if they are more covered up. Surely this is not a good thing especially for those women who feel uncomfortable in this type of clothing. Rape of course is a horrific crime but I would still have severe reservations that our clothing (for several different) reasons) could be unhelpful here. Sometimes it is our life experiences that determine the way we look at the world and in the interim we are inclined to warn others in case the same thing happens to them.

Barbara - 14/01/2006 10:39

Hi Naomi. You Posted: 13/01/2006 "Thank you Liam and your absolutely right Diane" Did you mean that for Liam? and after the very colourfull posting by Rob? Not a word from Liam these days, maybe he is a r**ist who is trying to justify on these pages what he is feeling guilty about in his head???

Miryam - 16/01/2006 09:20

I don't know bout you Dianbe, but I dress to make myself feel good. I don't dress to attract men (I have one already and have no need of another) so when I go out, I dress in way that I like. Sometimes I might wear something I bought recently to show t my girlfriends. Of course I dress differently for business than I do for a night out. This in not beucase I am "not being myself" but simply becuase I am in an ofice for 8+ hours and thgerfore what I wear needs to be lower maintenance, comfortable and reasonably prefessional looking.

fifi - 20/01/2006 17:10

Rob, excellent posting. You took the words right out of my mouth. One thing I'd like to say though, and I know Im going off on a tangent here but about 15 years ago when I was a teenager. If you didnt mess around with boys you were a frigid B***h. If you did mess around you were a slag. Women have always been caught in the middle. Girls trying to fit in, to be wanted both by their own friends and by guys but being damned either way. I tried both routes and was damned either way. Pretty soon after that, I gave up on the whole guy thing anyway :-)

Diana - 22/01/2006 00:39

Fifi, I don't think that it is any different today although when I was growing up there was a third type named. The Respectable! These were always the real wealthy ones so if she played around it would be no good. She would still be Respectable!

Rob - 22/01/2006 19:03

The way I remember it. If boys or young men were having it off with various girls sure they were just sowing their wild oats. While the girls they were with were considered to be scrubbers. A very two faced and jaundiced view by certain people. Of course when these lads wanted a wife they expected their chosen partner to be a virgin. Now it seems things have taken a 180 deg. turn and the ladies appear to be calling the shots. There were then, and there are now other boys and girls who were not so forward, call it shy if you like, who have respect for each other or have a sence of responsibilty that prevents them from just using the oposite sex as cheap thrill. None of this excuses any body from forcing another person to have sex with them against their will, and any-way as no precautions are 100% safe except abstanance couples should not be having full sexual intercourse unless they are in a lasting relationship, as they are taking a chance with another human being's life, namely the potential baby or babies. It is difficult enough to grow up in this world with two loving parents.

Naomi - 22/01/2006 22:27

Hi Miriam I actually meant ROB not liam, what a slip up!! I meant to say thank you to Rob as he paid me a compliment....

Mary - 23/01/2006 09:22

Those two types I\'m sure existed when I was a teen also but I had my own standards and decided what was right for me and if people thought I was frigid or whatever, so what. That was their own problem.

fifi - 31/01/2006 16:47

Yes Diana, I know the type you refer to. In my eyes and in the eyes of an ever growing population of other women who feel the same, a man who plays about is also a slag. No one likes someone who "puts it around" regardless of gender or sexual orientation.

Diana - 01/02/2006 02:14

Fifi, I haven't much of a problem with the male that has the name of being a slag. At least he comes out in the open and his actions can be seen. He is very easily spotted and can easily be refused. It's the dark horse that I have reservations about. Like the boss who is 20 years older than his victim, catches her when she is alone and puts her in a position where she feels that if she refuses him she may lose her job.

Mary - 01/02/2006 10:03

The incident in quesiton is sexual harrassment and is illegal, It is the perpretrator who risks losing his job

fifi - 01/02/2006 11:37

Diana, if you are referring to yourself here please dont put up with it. If its a friend you refer to, encourage her to speak up. Sorry, but is any job worth that sort of abuse? No way!There are laws protecting people now against this sort of thing. Creeps like this guy need their comeuppance and sharpish.

Diana - 01/02/2006 17:46

I'm afraid I am talking about myself. It happened 30 years ago when I was 15 years of age. I left school early to take up a job and help out at home. I worked a 72 hour week and used to work late hours. One night the boss pinned me up against the door on my way home and declared his undying love to me and promised to give me a raise if I went along with him. I didn't want him but I felt that I had no choice. Eventually I swallowed a load of alcohol one day and got suspended by higher bosses than my own boss. The suspension gave me the incentive to leave the job and move on. And no. I never reported this so I am a hypocrite when I tell others to do so.

Rob - 02/02/2006 00:24

Diana you are not a hypocrit, in 30 years things have moved on. Labour law now is much stronger, and you were only 15, very few children of 15 are working in jobs where their boss can take advantage of them, kids of 15 are in eduaction these days. I also was at work at that age, as a boy of 15 I did not have the problem of sexual intimidation. I am sorry I thought you were Liam earlier, I don't know what you ment when you said you agreed 100% with him, his attitude is not good. You are a woman of experience, you grew up and learnt in the school of hard knocks and you are right to advise others, keep up the good work.

Miryam - 02/02/2006 09:06

Diane, that is horrendous. Even in 1976, there surely mus have been a law against sexual harrassment and even if there wasn't, such conduct with a 15 year old is unlawful carnal knowledger and in the case where intercourse occured, it is statutory rape. Aside form that, it was illegal even then to employ anyone under 15 in full time work outside the family business and no-one regardless of age is permitted to work those kind of hours. No, I don't think you;re a hypocrite, you were young, inexperienced of the world and maybe afraid to report it but great couage to you for telling yuor story, it may inspire others to report such incidents.

Diana - 02/02/2006 13:02

No, I am definately not Liam. The reason I agreed with him was because I could see what he was saying all around me. I don\'t know what it was about me but I could seem to attract these kind of men. Between being followed home by queer hawks (one being a killer) and others being married men I found my home town quite disturbing. The huge mistake that I made I believe was coming out of school too early. I would love to see the Leaving Cert being made compulsory and a whole programme given over to this type of problem in the schools. Advice should be given on how to handle these situations in particular to women. Maybe it could be incorporated into a self-defence course and many different scenarios given. I have had two major incidents that make me so suspicious all my life. But a lonely birth and putting my child up for adoption actually gave me a whole load of courage afterwards and no-one came near me after that without my permission. No young girl should come out of school lacking in the kind of courage that I had.

Anonymous - 02/02/2006 22:19

Diana, please explain your numerous comments at the start of this discussion when you said to me, and I quote: ''I know I would definitely have gone to the guards if it was only one man.'' You then later said ''...Or do you want to stay as one of those meek, mild, do-as-you-are-told and say nothing kind of women. For God's sake! Wake up!'' And then... ''The only lack of respect i have is the fact that she cannot report this matter!'' And then... ''But I tell you this much, there is no-one who would rape me and get away with it.'' I could go on. Yet now you are saying that this in fact HAS happened to you but you were too scared to report it. Hypocrite? Perhaps. What worries me far more however, is the fact that I fear you are not being genuine.

Miryam - 03/02/2006 12:35

Gosh Dianbe, you had a lonely birth and put your child up for adoption. That sounds horrendous - even for the 70\'s or 80\'s. Aterall, they are not the dark ages. was the father of the baby aware of this. Sorry that is none of my business but have you recieved counsellign for this and also, you may be able to trace your child thru birth and adoption records.

Diana - 03/02/2006 14:01

Anon 22:19 Yes, I certainly did say all those comments. When I said that I would definately have gone to the guards, what I was actually saying was that I wish I had myself. When I mentioned the meek and mild comment, again, I was talking about myself because this is the kind of person that I was. When someone cannot report this matter this is where the person becomes disgusted with themselves. I know that I was disgusted. I felt that I had let myself down in the biggest way possible. When I said that no-one would rape me and get away with it, I was coming from a place inside of me that now had courage. I remember when I wrote that comment that I was saying that a bit late at this stage. I should have had that thought at the time. My biggest problem at the time was that I didn't know how to say no. And it genuinely came from a sheer lack of confidence. I see the same fault in one of my daughters. She would do anything for you and never refuses work that I give her. She wouldn't even use a swear word. Yet, I am telling her that she needs to stop being too willing to do things and I actually celebrate if she can show even a small bit of annoyance at a request. She would be the child that would concern me the most whereas the others are a bit more brazen. And so anon, I certainly do know what I am talking about and I am hoping that on this site, someone may see what they need to do in order to stop this happening to them.

Diana - 03/02/2006 16:01

Miryam, That adoption came some years later and wasn't connected with the first incident. There was something else that I wanted to say but half my post was cut out. I'm still trying to figure out what I said wrong but there is one word that I could have slipped up on or mentioned out of context.

JackOH - 10/02/2006 11:04

I have just been reading through the previous letters sent to this Topic. Diana, you made some mistakes in the past, some were not even mistakes you were too young to cope with the situation you were faced with. Put as much of that behind as you possibly can. What you do in the future is more important, if you havn't already been to an assertiveness course consider going to one. If there are things that have happened in the past that you feel you handled badly and you are able to deal with now then concentrate on that which bothers you most talk it over with someone and do what you can to resolve it. If it is too late leave it be and move on to the next. Don't keep beating yourself for the wrongs of others. I may have the wrong idea alltogether, if so excuse me. You seem like a realy nice person and we could do with a few more like you in this world.

Anonymous - 12/02/2006 02:41

What would you think of a young girl who has to stay in somebody's house for a while and the man in the house comes up to her bedroom when she is asleep or pretending to be asleep. He then lifts up her nightdress and starts to feel her breasts, doesn't touch her down below and walks back out of the room again. What kind of a person is this? What does the young girl do if she is dependent on these people?

Chana - 13/02/2006 11:27

No child has to be dependany on a pervert like that. She should report the situation immediaely, To a parent, teacher or social worker. And if it happens again, she should raise the alarm instantly.

Rob - 13/02/2006 13:55

Anomous,This is not acceptable behaviour, tell two adult women, one of whom who knows the man. To save confusion pick a name for yourself instead of anonomous. Do not let this situation develope.

fifi - 13/02/2006 15:49

Anon, please encourage this young woman to tell someone NOW. She doesnt have to put up with this ABUSE no matter her situation. He is not touching her breasts for now but what if that changes, and it probably will. Act now please.

Victoria - 13/02/2006 18:24

But what if this family was arranged by a social worker but the girl cannot bring herself to tell the social worker because the woman of the house is so good to her. How can she destroy that woman's world? If these two people i.e., the young girl and the woman get on so well together, then it is impossible to do this. Look how much she would be cut up by this and a great friendship would be destroyed. How could anyone get out of such a predicament then? It would mean that the young girl would have to be shifted to a different home again and this may be terrifying for her.

the mad nurse - 13/02/2006 20:31

Anon 12/02/2006 No one has the right to touch anyone else in a way they dont invite or welcome, so of course this should be reported, it's probably only a matter of time before he goes farther and then it'll be too late. I have three daughters and I can tell you, if I thought somebody even touched them regardless of who it was I would make them pay for it. I can see where the earlier anon who was raped is coming from by not reporting it, because the powerlessness of rape victims is such an awful feeling it tends to continue after the event,rapists know this and this is part of the thrill for them, exerting their power over who they think is a helpless female, who they try to break and make more helpless. Therefore it must take a lot of courage to report something like this after your courage and self respect has been so severly hurt. So to Anon who was raped please try and sum up the power to get them back and make them pay. To 2nd Anon who wrote re the young person, Can you not speak for this young person before it's too late????????????

the mad nurse - 13/02/2006 20:33

Also re the discussion on dressind one way or another I wont even comment on Liam\'s remarks other than to say, did you change your name on this site, are you the usual Liam I dread seeing postings from????

Aquarian - 14/02/2006 22:56

This started with the remark, "Women who flirt 'blamed' for rape" Let me tell you Rapists are to blame for rape and no one else. Rapists should be operated on, a labotomy carried out and a ballectomy would do the job. This would put a stop to it. Ocasionally false charges are brought by females, this is the only reason I would have doubts about imposing the death penelty. I have more to write and will be back

Miryam - 15/02/2006 09:42

Aquarian, aside from the fact that a lobotomy is and always was highly questionably procedure, which has no been banned in most civilised countries - it is NOT a cure for anything , certainly not perversion towards sexual attacts. As for a 'ballectomy' - I assume you are referring to castration, have you any comprehension that this could result in their anger (as afterall rape is a crime of power) being channeled instead of towards sexual attack - but to brutal murder. So this would mean just transferrance from one brutal crime to another. To me the death penalty is nothing other than legalised murder perpretated by the state. It brings the state down to the level of the lowest criminal. Aside from the fact that it says the criminal can never be turned around - I know this is not always possible, it leaves no room for error by thr state or even by the victim and it does not ever allow for corruption either of the state, the jury or tampered evidence. By the way, do you have any idea what is involved, physically in either a lobotomy or the various means of carrying out the death penalty.

Aquarian - 15/02/2006 10:55

Miriam, I am aware that none of the punishments I outlined in my rant were a runner, I was simply expressing my abhorance at any man who would rape a woman. I as a man would not even consider him as a man. I have had many woman in my life, My Mother and Grand Mothers who have passed away My lovely wife and Daughters who are alive and healthy Thank God, my sisters and many female aquaintances, none of whom have been raped as far as I know. I just hate the thought that there are wild creatures out there that could change all that.

Miryam - 15/02/2006 11:41

I agree Aquarian. It is abhorent and appalling and I'm sorry if I seemed to come on too strong or defensive. To me there is no ay to defend rape - EVER. I have just heard so many of the "hang 'em and flog 'em" brigade on so many postings who are so 'gung ho' about these issues that they don't stop to think thru whether their proposals are really relevant or appropriate or even effective.

Diana - 15/02/2006 13:35

One of the main reasons I think that rapists are out there or perverts is because us women have to find a better way to defend ourselves. While some rapists are brutal there are many many more that are sneaky types. It is hard to believe that we women can't even stand up to the sneaky type for fear of upsetting a whole household as Victoria says above. There was a major point made here and this is at the root of many a problem. How many more incidents like this are happening out there, right now at this very moment? This is going to go on forever if we don't find a better way. Even here some posts are being rejected and have to be worded differently in order to bring out some information. This means that we are still giving power to these rapists in case they are given ideas. So it is a fearful subject for everyone.

miryam - 15/02/2006 16:59

Dinae, there is no way a defenceless little child should have the responsibility foisted upon hoim or her to have to think up way to defend themselves against an attacker (that I can only describe as a monster). Defending the child, is the reponsibiliy of parents, carers or ultimaely, if neccessary the law - to make sure sickening perverts never have access to children again

Diana - 16/02/2006 15:34

Miryam, We are not talking just about little children here. We are talking about all ages of women who feel defenceless in situations like this. Who feel that they cannot say this to anyone? They cannot even give a sign that something is happening and social workers cannot see what is wrong. In this age of technology there should be at least a place that someone can text and report an incident even if it was done annoymously. Not everyone can go to the guards and of course not everyone might have a phone. But some people cannot speak these words at all whereas they may be able to write them. I think that this could be a very helpful area. Maybe someone could text them back with some advice. There are ways and means of helping people. Even essays in schools can be an insight into what way a child is feeling. We need to become more observant as well.

Miryam - 17/02/2006 09:26

Diana, it was indeed Victoria who was talking about a child being molested by one of her carers. There is a place that someone can report an incident like this - The rape crisis centre for one or childline for those under age and of course the guards. The Samaritans will listen also. What do you mean, no everyone can go to the guards. Any adult or even adolescent can go to the guards (as you said we weren\'t just talking about children). The vast majority of the population have a phone or landline - even young children of 10 or 12 have mobiles now. Yes, I agree, if a victim cannot give voive to what has happened a text line is a very god idea and you (and other posters) may not know this but the Samaritans now have a text and email service. I think (do check this) it\'s called jo@samaritans.ie. And yes, essays in school are also hugely important I agree and another area, esp. for very young children might be drawing, would you think?

Diana - 22/02/2006 13:57

Miryam, I was delighted to see that the Samaritans have a text service. I also think that plenty of drawing for young kids in school gives a great insight. My own young fellow proved this in a drawing when he was fighting with another fellow in school. But more than anything else I think that karate or something along those lines for girls would be the ideal. One of my own daughters went as far as going for her black belt and my God the amount of strength that she has today is incredible. She broke up two fights in the city and terrified the young fellows! I feel a lot more comfortable at home knowing that she can defend herself so well. I'v often run out of the kitchen when she was in a bad mood! This is our major problem I believe as women. The very fact that we feel we cannot match a man's strength is a huge drawback. But having something behind you brings that strength to the fore and the beauty about karate is that it trains the mind and has a disciplinery approach as well. In my view it would be great nourishment for women. I don't think that we should wait for these men to stop, but for us women to be there first before anything ever happens. Imagine if we got to the stage where it would actually help us to go around half naked because we would have more room to manoever and be able to kick them where it really hurts. A long skirt or a pair of jeans might get in our way!

Miryam - 22/02/2006 16:34

Well siad Diane, as well as being a means of defense and building strength karate also gives young women great confidence.

JackOH - 27/02/2006 16:51

I hear from the news that another young lady was abducted by four rapists. Who would agree that these thugs need more than the average sentence as handed by the courts, is any going to defend them by saying she was asking for it?

Diana - 27/02/2006 18:46

Well, at least this young lady reported the incident immediatly and went to the sexual assault unit in the South Infirmary. I don't think that there should be any sentencing for the likes of these fellows. Instead a group of local people should be called on to sort them out and the sooner they can do it the better. Why use the nice way to sort these fellows out? Pointless.

Miryam - 28/02/2006 09:39

Diana, why on earth do you think we have a judicial system at all if you people are just going to resort to vigilantism and others are going to encourage it.

Diana - 28/02/2006 13:02

What judical system? When young women feel that they cannot even report these incidences then there is none. They then have to relive the whole scene in front of a jury, have it hanging over here for two or three years and then the rapist gets about one and a half years on good behaviour. Then she wonders if he will come after her again.

Miryam - 28/02/2006 13:52

That women are in fear of reporting is a whole attitudinal system that needs to be changed. The court system where the woman doesn't bring charges for herself but is a witness for the state in prosecuting, is, I believe totally wrong as his her being subjected to trauma in the court room and indeed the huge delays in bringing to trial are awful too but that does not mean we don't have a judicial system.

Diana - 28/02/2006 16:18

Miryam, Whose attitude needs to change? The terrified woman or the man's? The judicial system as it stands at the moment is designed to keep the woman terrified. I don't hear anything of the cross examining that is given to the man in describing what he has done to his victim. It is the woman that has to do all the describing. A good beating would sort these fellows out far better and would send a good clear message to a lot of others out there. Put him on display just like the olden days where we could all cheer at his lashings. It might sound cruel but too many women are fed up of all this.

Blath - 02/03/2006 10:11

Rapists are criminals. They have been known to rape elderly women in their homes after breaking in and robbing them. Such a woman is unlikely to be wearing a low cut top and a miniskirt! If the rapist in this case is caught he will more than likely be prosecuted for robbery and the rape is merely incidental. I don't think scanty clothing or flirtatious behaviour makes any difference to these thugs. Naturally if women are walking alone at night they are an easier target for gangs of rapists on the prowl (this is becoming frighteningly common), but what women wear isn't the issue, what rapists know they can get away with is. Rape should be treated as a crime in ALL cases and the perpetrators brought to justice, otherwise the incidence of rape will increase. As the law stands rapists know they have a fair chance of getting away with their behaviour and women are afraid to report rape for fear of not being taken seriously. If rapists know that they are more likely to get away with rape when a woman is scantily dressed naturally that's the sort of victim they will choose. But they will still rape the elderly woman in her home if they think they can get away with it. Having said that, there are cultural issues involved. Men from other cultures may not regard rape as a crime. It is the responsibility of our legal system to hammer it home to such people that rape is a crime in this country, and anyone who carries out a rape here will be punished. Like any other crime, rape will continue if the perpetrators think they can get away with it.

60s girl - 02/03/2006 14:46

In the 60s, women campaigned to achieve equality in education, employment, law, availability of family planning, etc. Many highly motivated women worked hard to achieve these aims for the sisterhood, and young women today are enjoying the fruits of their efforts. Based on what I have just read from presumably educated young women, I am sad that we were wasting out time. Some modern women have achieved personal success, both in their working and personal lives, but we never intended that equality should mean that women should relinquish responsibility for their own well-being and that of their families. Personal freedom must be tempered with control and personal responsibility. If women get drunk and dress in a provocative way, a message is sent to men that they may be "available". Blaming men for responding naturally is simply dishonest.

Miryam - 02/03/2006 14:51

"Cultural issues" havce been used to excuse all sorts of horrors for far too long. It does not excuse rape. Nothing ever excuses rape. It is always wrong.

60s girl - 02/03/2006 20:03

Miryam, of course rape is one of the most obscene crimes which can be committed. However, if young women get drunk, which causes a loss of control, while dressing provocatively, they cannot expect the kind of respect which is given to those who behave with a little decorum. Women must protect themselves by being aware of the dangers of behaving irresponsibly. Women also must protect themselves from the charge that they "asked for it". If a young woman is drunk, people will always have a question about her own level of compliance when she screams "rape". That is the way of human nature.

sea otter - 10/03/2006 02:24

What if she is not simply drunk, but passed out on a bed in? Is she still responsible? God's law clearly says no. It is a man's responsibility to obey the law even in this circumstance. Otherwise, he becomes worthy of death. Tough words, but squarely within the Judaeo-Christian tradition of law. There is no crime of "asking to be raped"!

Diana - 10/03/2006 13:43

Sea otter, Death is too good for the likes of these fellows. A good flogging and make him live with the consequences of his actions. Let the people see him for the rest of his life. You are only allowing him to escape by putting him to death and he could go straight to heaven!

Miryam - 10/03/2006 14:18

I would be inclind to agree sa otter, tho', perhaps the deah penalty is rather harsh. So, 60's girl, you think women are worthy of respect only according to her behaviour, not simply becuase she is woman, a human being. What about if her drink is spiked? Would you judge her then also - and simply blame "human nature".

sea otter - 10/03/2006 19:11

Diana: Straight to heaven? I think not! "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders" I think that includes rapists! [1 Corinthians 6:9]

Mary - 14/03/2006 16:27

Sexually immoral? Now tell me Sea otter, how do you define sexually immoral - your standards? my standards? Someone elses standards, jewish standards, Hindu standards, humanist standards? Also, can you please specify what you mean by idolators? Why only male prostitutes? Are female prostitutes exempt? Is it somehow worse according to your standards to be a male prostitute? Personally I feel that prostitution, must be an awful thing for either a man or woman to be a position where they feel that have to prostitute themselves. Also, what exactly is a "homosexual offender"? Is this a homosexual who commits acts such as murder or theft, or indeed rape? I should think that a heterosexual who commits these acts would be just as much an offender as a homosexual. Why would you not agree?

Diana - 14/03/2006 21:20

Sea otter, Corinthians seems to have forgotten that there is an all forgiving God out there as well and that Jesus came to save sinners. Everyone of us could come under the sexually immoral ect., just by thinking about them at all! Remember we have sexual fantasies and dreams as well. Jesus warned us of how our thoughts can be just as bad. So they could easily go to heaven.

Mary - 15/03/2006 10:57

To clarify The King James Version of the Bible translates as follows: Corithians 6:9-10: "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." fornicators - those who have sex with moe than one partner. idolaters - those whom idolise (worship) their car, yacht, weath, power or anything which is not God. adulterers - those who have affairs or sex with someone other than their spouse. nor effeminate - that includes 95% of women I know and number of fine featured slightly built men. abusers of themselves with mankind - I have no idea what this means, except maybe those who abuse other people in any way. thieves - those who steal anything, including pilfering the office stationary or stealing time from their employer. covetous - those who covet or wish their had something which they don't - a nicer car, bigger house, baby, wife, money drunkards - clearly the Corintians didn't know alcohol was a disease. revilers - those who hate extortioners - one could say unkind things here about the Revenue Dept or insurance compaines. Well - lookign around me, I would say thse Corinthians must be very lonely in this kigdown becuase it must be very empty. Just for the record it did not say anything about homosexual offenders. I take it that anyoen who offends against these regulations would be subject to the same exclusion regardless of their sexual orientation. Nor was their any direct reference to prostitution.

60s girl - 15/03/2006 20:33

Miryam, I am simple enough to believe that if a woman is dressed provocatively, and is drinking too much, she is likely to be seen as having little responsibility for her own safety. Spiked drinks are another discussion entirely.

sea otter - 16/03/2006 17:51

Mary & Diana: Where to begin? First: Scripture interprets scripture. Don't read into it what we think of it today, but what it says. Oh yes, the plain language sense of it, too, not some tortured interpretation! Definitions: adulterers:those who engage in sexual contact with someone else's spouse; idolaters:those who worship anything but God; effeminate:cross-dressers, male prostitutes [remember we are talking Greco-Roman society]; abusers of themselves with mankind: men on men, esp. men who used the effeminate ones to satisfy their urges; drunkards:just that!; revilers:those who gossip and spread tales, slanderers; extortioners:mostly tax collectors who squeezed the weaker folks for more than they should pay; fornicators:those who engage in sexual contact outside of marriage. Homosexuals are singled out in this and many other places in Old and New Testaments as vile sinners, worthy of death and not to be found in God's kingdom. But, I was not singling them out. I was instead pointing to a scripture that reminds us that the law of God has not changed and does, indeed, exclude a large number of people who engage in acts which God has warned us against. The Pope agrees with me, by the way!

sea otter - 16/03/2006 18:01

Diana: The concept of an all-forgiving God is one that I come across often. I consider it one of Satan's most effective tools! Have you not read of the death of Koresh, who, with his entire family and all who stood against Moses, was swallowed up by the earth? Have you not read of Sodom and Gomorrah? God has given us His law and we have no excuse for not doing His will. The loving, forgiving God is one who beholds sinners who have repented and turned away from their sins, who have turned to God and desire to follow His ways, to do His will. The unrepentant have no claim on His mercy and will never enter into His rest. These may seem to be hard words, but they are as clear as can be when you read the whole of the Bible and don't "cherry-pick" the parts that seem to say what you would like to hear.

sea otter - 16/03/2006 18:19

We have gotten way off topic here! At the risk of sounding liked a bearded prophet of doom, I have stated a case for abiding by God's law. The crux of the matter is that under His law we must never do to someone else, that which we find hateful if done to us. That's another way to state Jesus' reply when asked what was the greatest of the laws. The way He put it is often said to be the "Love God and love your neighbor rule." Rape is fairly and absolutely excluded by this rule, no matter the dress, level of intoxication or state of helplessness of the woman. Men know this without even being told. It is built into us and we have no excuse for violating the chastity of any woman unless we are invited, encouraged and permitted by her when she is fully aware of her options and in control of her senses.

Diana - 18/03/2006 03:22

Actually sea otter, I don't think that you have gone off the topic at all. I suppose everything that we believe in reverts back to the Bible in some way. No matter what there will be some parts of the Bible that we will interpret to suit ourselves. I have found myself already doing that here on this health site. I have a funny feeling that I know what you are doing and I am finding it very amusing! If I am right, I would say fair play to you! You are much smarter than I thought you were! I'll have to go back and try and rub out the comments that you spotted and look let's just forget about the Bible will we?? Let's just pretend that we all just got here and make up our own rules as we go along. We'll try and slot God in there somewhere as well, shall we?

sea otter - 20/03/2006 03:27

Diana: Possibly I misunderstand your comments. You say that you have a feeling that you know \"what I am doing\". I was offering my comments as a man, as a pastor to injured women and as a husband, father and grandfather of lovely women. I have helped pick up the pieces of shattered lives after rape and other violent assaults. It doesn\'t take great compassion to learn to cry when confronted with such things. It does take a great deal of faith to let the justice system deal with the rapists. I rather favor the fair trial and stoning that God prescribes. We need to send an unequivocal message: Women are not sex toys for you to use and abuse at will.

Mary - 20/03/2006 09:22

sea otter - why do you regard male prostitutes as effeminate? abusers of themselves with mankind - what has this got to do with men on men. In a consenting relationship, no-one is being abused. Nor does that particular piece say anything about effeminacy. Homosexuals were NOT singled out in this piece of scripture. Might I remind you that the "law of God" des not supercede the law of the country as we do not live in a theocracy. Therfore I am not in the slightest interested in what the catholic pope agrees or disagrees with. Incidentally, a woman, even drunk and half-naked (tho' I wouldn't recommend this behaviour for anyone, male or female) would be perfectly safe from rape in an entire room full of gay men. Just for the record we do not live in Greco Roman society or ancient judean society for that matter. So "the concept of an all-forgiving God is one that I come across often". How unfortunate, so many Christians I know, come accross the kind loving merciful all-forgiving God regularly in their daily lives. Both Moses and the cities or Soddom and Gomorrah were of the old testament. Have you read the new testament - I understand that that is the one Chritians are intended to follow. Yes - do unto others as you would have them do unto you. This was the abiding commandment given to all Christians. I do not dispute this as being anything other than very good advice. I agree absolutely, we have no excuse for violating anyone - ever. Consensual intercourse between sensate adults, being of course a totally different matter. Actually, Diana, I disagree that everything we believe goes back to the bible. It might instead go back to the Tor'ah, Talmud, Quaran or indeed whatever book the Hindu's, Taoist, shintoist, animists or pagans follow. And indeed many Humanists do not follow any oranist religion. Personally, I feel the values we initially have we get from our parents and our peer group and these are rejected or accepted and evolve as we develop as human beings.

Mary - 20/03/2006 11:26

God has never advocating stoning in the new testament. Nor has the Irish justice system.

Miryam - 20/03/2006 14:41

If someone walks down a dark alley drunk and flashing jewelery and then gets mugged. The mugger is still guilty of wrong doing and is prosecuted under the law, as such. If a woman takes a stranger home, she is PERFECTLY within her rights to only wants kissing or touching. Kissing and touching do NOT EVER give then man the right to rape a woman. YAre you now blaming rape on the lifestyle a woman leads - this sound to me as if yuou are blaming rape on the woman. Would you also blame car theft on a car owner? This to me is an utterly sickening attitude and it is this type on mindset which allows the justice system to treat women the way thay are treated. A women accepting drinks for the whole evening from male strangers DOES not advertise anything (except perhaps that the woman us a little mean - but this is only my opinion) and NEVER gives permission for anyone to perpetrate rape.

Diana - 22/03/2006 13:29

Yes, but Miryam, if a woman takes a stranger home with her and allows him to kiss and touch her she is putting herself into a position where she can be persuaded. Men are very good at this and her protests can sound weak giving the impression that she doesn't really mean what she says. It can give out confused signals and I think it would be far better if women got to know their strangers first before ever kissing them. This is responsibility on the womans part.

sea otter - 23/03/2006 02:45

Mary: The New Testament has no prohibitions of several things that we probably agree are beyond the pale of civilized behavior. It was never intended to be a "stand alone" guide, but simply part of the whole Bible. The law of God is the same throughout the Bible, not severed by the arrival and life of Christ.

sea otter - 23/03/2006 03:00

Andra, Miryam and Diana: I think that we agree that playing with fire often leads to burns and playing with sex, alcohol and situations as you have described often leads to rape. The problem is that we are too often playing with very strong emotions whilst the alcohol has loosened our inhibitions. With men, as with rugby players, there is a strong drive to score a goal once the game progresses to the point that we can "see it". With a marked advantage in strength, weight and absolute singleminded drive, the rape is often done before her feeble protests register on us. Yes, women must realize that they cannot control men like a light bulb. They should avoid situations where they can become victims. Yes, men are still responsible for their actions. No excuses!

sea otter - 23/03/2006 03:12

To all of you: The wreckage left behind by violent rapes and even the more gentle "date rapes" is forbidding. We need to teach our daughters to be chaste and prim, to always wear their knickers in public and to be aware that the world isn't a safe place when you are drunk and don't have really good friends taking care of you. The rest of it is quite beyond our power to change, but we can start by demanding that rape be prosecuted and rapists punished in every case. A zero tolerance policy must start with the attitude of the public. You see that we have away to go! God bless you all for discussing this issue and hearing all sides. The last thing we need is for the gardia to decide that the silly twit had it coming to her! I'm off on holiday until after Easter. No computers, no telly, no cares. Blessings to all!

Miryam - 23/03/2006 08:49

I also think it would be better to get to know someone before taking them home - simply from a safety point of view, they could be the next serial killer but I do not find anything confusing or ambiguous about the follow words: No Stop that I don\'t want to. To me these give very clear signals indeed.

MIryam - 23/03/2006 15:08

Andrea, it could not be clearer. Consensual sex is not rape. Rape occurs where consent has not been given. No ambiuity, no confusion. Quite simple in fact. If a man co-erces a womne into having sex where she hs said no then this isnot consensual sex as she has not consented.

Rob - 23/03/2006 15:58

Andra You make a good point, a female who is forced into a car and taken by four males and forced to do anything at all sexual should come under the heading RAPE. The same applies to even one male forcing a female to do anything at all sexual. This is a long way from a couple messing about with mutial consent even if a few drinks have been taken. But a male who has penetrive sex must be very carefull that the female is giving full consent, I personally think they should not be going this far unless they are prepard to raise a child together as the best laid plans can go wrong. There is a huge grey area between the two seanarios that might or might-not be Rape. Don't do it lads except with a loving wife or a stable girlfriend you want to live with into the forseeable future.

Miryam - 23/03/2006 17:13

I think that we agree that playing with fire often leads to burns. Fire however is not an individual which is bound to be reponsible for his own bhaviour. Men ARE. As for comparig sex to rugby, that is both simplistic and insultign in my view. No man (or woman) is entitled to "score" (I really only thought teeens used that phrase in relation to sex) sexually against the wishes of anyone. Are you implying that a woman does not have a singleminded drive to prevent the rape?? As for "feeble protests" There is nothing feeble about the words No Stop or Don't. "Chaste and prim". Not sure what you mean by "prim", but seeing as men are primarily the perpetrators, should ee not be teaching our sons to be chaste as well as respectful? Incidentally, I do not have any repressive notions about sex before marriage being wrong. Sex, I believe must always be between consensual adults and for me must always be with someone I love and intend on having a long term relationship with - but these are just my standards and I don't pesume to impose on the whole country. Sadly the world isn't even a safe place sober either. Yes of course rape be prosecuted and rapists punished in every case. A zero tolerance policy must start with the attitude of the public. But men must be educated on this just like women. Enjoy your holiday by the way - No computers, no telly, no cares, sounds like bliss.

Mary - 23/03/2006 17:16

Good advice in the main Rob but I personally know many people who have consensual sex with their life partner on a regular basis but are in no way prepared to raise a chld together (some are CBC) - which is why they take the greatest of care to prevent this.

Miryam - 24/03/2006 08:54

Andrea, I completely and utterly disagree. No woman would put herself through court and all that involves - and really, judging by your opinion, you know very ery little about what that involves, being asked themost personal qistions about her life an personal history and being made to feel almost as tho' she is on trial and defending herself, if she had not in fact been raped. A woman who has consensual sex with aman and regrets it the following day has not been raped. She has perhaps not used her judgemetn very well and been ather unwise but if she consented than she has not been raped. I cannot believe any women would take an accusation of rape to court to get custody of children. I know there are malicious women who make accusations of violence to get custody of kids, regardless of whether the man is rich or not and where no violence atually took place, to do this is just plain WRONG on the woman part. I am not sure which papers you red but I don't see this constantly happening to famous or rich men. As for the courts ruining mens lives, he ay rape is treated in thi country it is the womens lives who are ruined. Perhaps you should do some research into the judicial system regarding rape in this country. Has it ever occured to you that the numbe rof convicions have droppd becuase the judicila system is so biasd aainst women that many of them do not have the support they need to go all the way to trial? Tell me, what mens rights exactly is the Iirsh judicial sysem violating?? Could you list them. I can think of one. Can you tell us the rest? Also, as you seem to have a chip on your shoulder - can you tell us why? I think it would be good if you had all and any vested interests out on the table so to speak.

val - 24/03/2006 19:32

Ladies, Don't miss the point and get bogged down in a slagging match. Lets face it there are rapists out there, they don't need encouregment. Inspite of the fact that some women may bring falce alegations of rape, there are plenty of genuine victims who need our support, this type of argument must be rubbing salt in their wounds. I would hate to be a man who was falcely accused. I would alsohate to be the one who was raped and unable to prove the fact while fingers were pointed and whispers of she was asking for it were echoing in my ears and I would have to see the man smirking and roaming free. I think as I knew the truth I would seek justice in another type of court.

Diana - 25/03/2006 01:25

I couldn't possibly see the amount of false accusations on the rise. But I would certainly think that there would be some. I do also believe that if a man was proven innocent there is no need what-so-ever for his name to be printed. He should be protected against this and the person who falsely accused him should be highlighted. His innocence is only counter-productive if his name is printed because it only casts doubts in the minds of the public and he could be subjected to scorn and ridicule on the street. Having said that, there are many many women who are suffering in silence today for not only being raped but being taken advantage of because of their age or because they were afraid of the individual. A work-place boss is someone that you could easily be afraid of in case you would lose your job. This is the position that I was in. I was genuinely afraid that I would lose my job. But this is it, isn't it? We need to stop being afraid.

Miryam - 27/03/2006 08:46

The DIFFERENCE between you accusing someone of stealign and or rape is that, if you accuse someone of stealing something - you must prove it. If you accuse someone of rape, you are merely a witness for the state in their prosecution. That is the difference. Do you actually know what gos on in a rape trial, becuase you sound to me to be completely deluded. The reason I say you seem to have a chip on your shoulder is becuase that is exactly the way it sounds.

Miryam - 27/03/2006 17:05

the accused would have faced if convicted, is patently ridiculous. Rape and perjury re two totally different offences. How are men being blamd for all the ills ij society> Csn you give examples? Do you have any evidence to sugest that Crimes commited by women especially when it comes to abusing children is so underreported it's ludicrous? am certainly not branding all men as rapist and I don;'t think anyone lse is either. Of course rape in proson is serious. No one said otherwise. So now you think it is the fault of the womnes lifestyle? That is sikening. Repeat rape or any rape is the fault of the sk individula who perpetrated it. No exceptions. A pat on a womens bum in the street or a club IS actually sexual assault and whether she will need counselling depends on the woman. Would it bother me? No, I'd probably just tell the fellow in question to go and feck off with himself. The legal definition of assualt is an unanted touch of any sort. Flirtiugn and teasing is just that - it's not an open invitation and no amount of prolytising will make it one, You think a womens past in a rape trial should be able to be used as evidence because if she has been raped numerous times on seperate occasions by seperate men completey independent of one another it is suspicious. That frnakign is disgustingly misogynistic. If your home is broken into more than once (becuase for xampole you live in a socially deprive area) is it then your fault instead of the burglars? Of course not and no court in the land would deem it so. why does this then differ in your mind when it comes to women being raped

Mary - 28/03/2006 17:08

Ah yes, one always knows when one's opponent in argument feels hey have lost when hey withdraw from discussion. That and the fact that you can't seem to answer too many of my questions. Yes the owner is responsible for the houses' security but she is not reponsible for the illegal actions of society and no court would deem her so, just as no woman is responsible for the acitosn of a rapist. Your analogy is aintly ridiculpous as it is not possible to be insured against rape.

Rob - 29/03/2006 08:40

I have been trying to follow how this argument was going, and could not understand how Andra could have such a distorted view. Now I see Andra is a male, this explains a lot, but any normal male could not think quite like that unless they have suffered at the hands(or words) of a bad woman. If this has happened to you Andra you have my sympathy, but don't take it out on the rest of woman-kind. The women in my life are wonderful people, and there are bad men as well as bad women. We should be united against both. Even bad women do not deserve anything as bad as rape. Rapists should be removed from society and I don't mean for just a couple of years.

fifi - 27/04/2006 13:02

Well spoken Rob. Andra I feel most definitely has had bad experiences with women. If it is a woman speaking and not a man, I wonder how a member of the fairer sex could become so aloof and cold in her thinking?

Onlooker - 02/05/2006 10:27

Fifi, when you say the fairer sex, is this an a sugestion that men are generally less fair than women? and is this a fair observation as some nen will be fairer than some women, in other words are you being fair in making that observation, and if you are wrong you yourself are not being fair. if this is the accepted view of most women then as most women were not being fair it would be wrong to describe women as the fairer sex. Do we have a parodox

Andra - 04/05/2006 11:57

Yes I am male and no I have not ever been accused of rape. The idea that I must be male to have these views is preposterous! I am happily married with a female in her twenties and she agrees 100% with these views. We are also a highly qualfied couple so you wouldnt be able to say we are coming from an uneducated point of view, truth is I brought this discussion up amongst friends and we all agreed that females should take responsibility for their actions and way of dress. A female cannot expect political correctness to be more powerful than nature. If an attractive female is flirting and revealing alot of body a male will get turned on and perhaps \"leer\". Now since we consider leering sexual harassement then this particular male leering would be considered a sexual preditor and thats the mad feminised world we live in. I dont do political correctnes I do logic. I am not talking about violent/forced rape - that is a gross crime however I do not consider it a bigger crime than a female falsely accusing a man of rape and destroying his life. I have had experiences were the girl panicked and then lied as a result. AT about 15 years old staying with family friends the daughter also 15 and I got intimate. Nothing much just kissing and fondling. 2 days later her parents come visit my parents to inform them that I fondled their daughter in her sleep!! Fortunately my parents believed their own son and told the family the same. I am not sure a court of law however would react the same. Automatically they would believe the female . Society has put immense responsibility on males and relieved females of their responsibility. Just look at suicide rates and boys falling behind at school.Look at media where all males are either rapists murderers or just simple fools, compare that to how females are shown as confident , powerful and smart. This gives young girls and boys a false sense of reality. Heres a thought or perhaps a shock for you. Why not, teach our daughters to respect men, teach our daughters never to strike a man no matter how upset they are, never ever to hit a man in the groin.

fifi - 04/05/2006 16:39

Onlooker... did it take you long to write that? Have you been watching tonguetwisters on bosco again? Come on now, own up!

Mary - 05/05/2006 09:49

You speak of "nature". I personally don't consider leering to be at all "natural", whatever you consider "natural" to be. Thne in the next breath you spak of logic. Well educated you may be but clarly you are not well qualified to speak on this topic. Your say "i am not talking about violent/forced rape". THAT IS WHAT RAPE IS - violent and forced. An act of violence where someone is forced into a sexula act against their will. A man rapes a woman - destrys her life Vs a woman falsely accusing a man of rape and destroying his life. Two lives destroyed, ow can you ay perjurt is less of a crime than rape? Ah, so you did ave an experiece which coloured you view. That sayas so very much more than all of your posts. A where all males are either rapists murderers or just simple fools?? Clearly whatever media you view / listen hads a ery "unique" view of the world compared to everyone else. Indeed why not, teach our daughters to respect men, teach our daughters never to strike a man no matter how upset they are, never ever to hit a man in the groin. I would agree, the exception of course being cases of self defence. And while we're at it, why not teach our sons to respect women, regardless of how they dress or appear, teach our sons never to strike a woman and never ever to rape a woman. Just for the record attempted suicides rates are considerable higher among women and girls

Andra - 05/05/2006 11:18

Mary here we go again! Please look at television series a little closer ok and tell me who the criminals are. We have been drumming it into males for years not to hit and to respect women. Yes attempted suicides are higher amongst females but really what do you consider more of a crisis succesful suicides or attempted?? Please dont repeat what you said in an earlier post that some of those attempted suicides then become actual suicides because we know that already and we also know that suicide rate amongst males is 6 times more than females and in some age groups 10 times more. You seem to be full of yourself and blatantly misandric. You are typical of many of the so called "modern females" all that concerns you is the female well being. Thats the problem people like you dont want equality you want selective equility - just the parts that suit you and your gender. Equality means equal funding in health for both genders and if you even try to suggest that is happening you living in your own little world. All this rape campaigning is to keep feminist organisations their funding, because if these organisations had to reveal the truth ie that there is no rape crisis they would loose the funding and we couldnt possibly have that now. Also if the government had to end this mass funding they would be considered mysoginist and they couldnt have that cause then they loose votes. So either way the female gender just keeps benefiting continously to the detrement of males. Also when people put females in minority groups is that not a little strange? Females make up more than 50% of the population!

Mary - 05/05/2006 14:25

Andra, read your posts again - I am not the one who is misandric. My first concern is my well-being and they of my family, as is the case with most people on the planet. I care also about my collagues and my community.Yes, of course I want equal health funding for mos genders. I imganine in the REAL world that that is something eveyone wants. The rape crisi centre is not a femist organisation - that is a conspiracy theor that seems to exist only in your own mind. It exists to assist people affected by rape. Male and female. Also, if you think that rape is not a crisis situation, I am sad to say you really have lost your grip on reality. Can you explain how the rapew crisis centre exists to the deriment of males. Remember that many women who are raped has a father / partner, perhaps brother who care about them just as many men who are raped has a mother / partner and perhaps sisters who are about them.

Andra - 05/05/2006 17:30

I didnt say rape is not a crisis mary. I said there is no rape-crisis. Get the difference?

Rob - 05/05/2006 17:39

Andra amd Mary cool it a bit, I know Mary you are well eduacated and genuine in your feelings and beliefes regarding rapists, and I am sure Andra would not approve of rapists either, he might even feel stronger if his young wife was attacked by a rapist, Mary you are getting excited and I can see it in your spelling. Andra even the uneducated are entittled to have an opinion, and some of the well eduacated seem to remain uncivelized. Only an uncivelized Individual could contemplate rape and remember this crime is often performed against older women in their own home. Their state of dress has nothing to do with it.

HairyBare - 05/05/2006 19:06

Yes the state of dress of the victim is no defence by the perpetrator of this heanous act. I have spent many a holiday in naturist resorts where men and women of all ages are moving around nude, and in various states of dress depending on weather they are going to the restaurant or the beach, or if it is a cool evening or hot sunny day. I have never heard of any one being raped, men young and old are able to control their "nature" as Andra puts it. So give us a break Andra if a man or men decide to rape a person it is not because they have lost control it's because they are selfish bstrds who don't care for anything or anyone except self gratifacation, and burning at the stake would be too good for them.

Mary - 08/05/2006 09:38

Yes, you're right Rob - my spelling was appalling. Apologies for that. HairyBare has a point. At naturist resorts ther are men and women goign about theit business in various states of undress or dress and attacks are unheard of.

Anonymous - 17/05/2006 21:04

Read some of the above post, in a ideal world a woman should be able to wear anything that she wants without the fear of being raped but we are not living in a ideal world I would like to say to all women to go and take lessons in self defence then let a man try it on and see what he gets, beat the bloody crap out of him this would soon put a stop to the rape of women who in the first instance said no, some women are trained in some form of defence but as we see the women that suffer at the hands of these brutes were not all women from a early age should have this skill.

fifi - 07/06/2006 16:45

I think men in general believe that they have a god given right to grope women when they feel like it.

Diana - 08/06/2006 03:27

Yes, but Fifi, some of us women don't mind being groped either. We do tend to coax men on when we are in the mood. It is in our nature. I have done it myself I must admit and as soon as he fell into the trap I told him to buzz off. Sorry but it's a game I like to play at times.

SL - 08/06/2006 15:21

That's a very dangerous game Diana and one you should hope doesn't backfire someday. The last thing you want is to be another stastitic. Take more care of yourself in future and I mean that in the nicest possible way.

Tommy - 08/06/2006 16:29

Diana, you are playing a dangerous game. There are plenty out there who wont just buzz off. Besides its not a good idea to make fools out of people. Not everyone will be interested in playing your silly little games!

Andra - 08/06/2006 16:44

At last we have a some truth coming out here. Thanks Diana, this is what I have been saying all along. It is your nature as a female to do that and it is our nature as males to chase. Its hard wired in humans. Most females do this but dont want to admit it.

Diana - 08/06/2006 17:12

Well, I think that we have to acknowledge this part in ourselves. Women love to be admired and no woman would argue with me on this one. It makes us feel good and beautiful. Sometimes the more admiring looks a woman gets the more it goes to her head. She then feels like this queen amongst her clan. I think most women would secretly like to be a queen bee and it would be like a goal for some women. Or the spider who draws the men into her web and then eats them! That's what I like to be. I'll bring them so far and then by showing a complete lack of interest in them I am eating them! Then I move on to my next conquest and treat him the same (unless of course that I really fancy him). Maybe it is the men that need to be taught not to be so vulnerable because women can be far more cruel than men at times.

louthchick - 08/06/2006 17:20

Yes, but Fifi, some of us women don't mind being groped either. We do tend to coax men on when we are in the mood. It is in our nature. I have done it myself I must admit and as soon as he fell into the trap I told him to buzz off. Sorry but it's a game I like to play at times. Thankfully Diana not all of us women are like you! to be honest the statement you made ' to coax men on when we are in the mood' is disgusting and women like you are trouble. When youre in the mood there are other options, dont just try to get a guy into bed.. and You like to be groped!! You sound so cheap! How can you make a statement like that?? How dare you put 'us' women who ''respect ourselves'' in the same box!! I feel sorry for the guy that meets you. You may like to play games Diana but just be careful, you know the saying ''play with fire + you get burned'' You most certainly are the ''fire''.

Diana - 09/06/2006 02:04

God, Are there still people around that call some women cheap? And who said anything about getting men into bed? That's your dirty mind presuming that louthchick so you are not as respectable as you think you are. It takes an awful lot for any man to get me into bed. I just like him to THINK that he can get me in there. Look at it this way. By flirting with men you bring out a lot in him. Where would all our love songs or love poems be if we didn't allow them the chase? When they are chasing they have to make a huge effort. They have to have that adoring look in their eyes, charm me with their words, buy some flowers maybe or bits of jewellry, dress nicely and most of all wash themselves! I have a very high standard that they have to meet and if they don't meet it then they have to go. Simple as that. So flirting is very important and necessary for the survival of the human race. If a man decides to rape me because of my flirting all that has happened is that he failed the test and couldn't take his beating. It is the weak man that rapes whereas the strongest man holds his patience and ups his efforts to woo the woman.

Mary - 09/06/2006 10:47

I don't know about you Andra, but it's not in my nature, nor my mohers nor any of my female friends to lead any man on just to attempt to make him look foolish. Sure, if I fancied a guy I would chat him up, eye him up - be flirtatious, whatever you like to call it. If he liked me in turn he would respond. If he didn't, that was that. Sure it might be in a mans (or indeed a womans) natutre to chase but case is NOT rape. And never will be. Sure, I like to be admired, and complimented - by male and female friends as well as my partner. But that does not mean I want to lead men on just to make them look foolish. I want to be neither a bee nor a spider, nor any othetr insect thank you, nice and all as they are I'm sure. What you ae doing Diana is cruel and may I say, plain nasty and would feel likewise were a man to do this to a woman. Maybe it is women such as yourself who should be taught from an early age not to be so cruel and nasty to other human beings. Just for the record, I DO NOT LIKE BEING GROPED nor do I know anyone who does. Sure I like affection and I enjoy sexual contact with my partner but I do not like groping or sleaze.

Razor - 12/06/2006 11:50

Louthchick, well said! I dont imagine the pond life that would be attracted to the likes of Diana's cheap shots would be up to much either?

Mary - 12/06/2006 12:17

Why do you like a man to think he can get you into bed? Why do you like to play with peoples feeling like that? Does it amuse you? I'm not sue how young you are but it' a long long time (maybe my mid-teens) since I was naieve enough to be taken in by charming words. I expect any man I'm dating with to wash themselves and dress properly but leading a man on to get flowers or jewelery is cheap - by any standards. If a man decides to rape you because of your flirting, he hasn't failed - he has perpertrated and appalling act and you would be the vistim of it.

Diana - 12/06/2006 17:25

Attracting a mate is indeed a game we play. It's fun and it's enjoyable and people who claim it isn't doesn't know anything about this game afterwards. If I was to go by your theory I would be sitting down in a public place stony faced and afraid to look at any man. Attracting a mate is a two-way system. I have to work hard as well remember to attract him. If he misinterprets what I am doing then that is his own fault. He should be able to cop rejection as well as attraction and most of all he should be able to handle it just as women have to handle that too. We already know what it is like to win some games in sport and lose others. Dating and mating is the exact same. You are only playing a game of feelings and it doesn't have to be so serious. This game is necessary for all of us to experience feelings and find those that we are most comfortable. Eventually this does happen but you have to play the game first and play it to the best of your ability.

Mary - 12/06/2006 17:47

Attracting a mate is indeed fun and enjoyable but you admitted to purposely lad him on only to dump him. That is playing nasty manipulative mind games and as you just admitted, playign with peoples feelings. That game is not necessary for anyone to experience feelings unless you count cruelty to others as being a feeling you like to experience.

Diana - 13/06/2006 01:48

Yes, but Mary, you have to admit that some men are just so gullible that you just have to end up being cruel. Some of them are just too easy to catch and you have to teach them a lesson. Some of them put you up on this pedastal and worship you as if you are some kind of a goddess. They make you their territory and woe betide any fella that comes near! I remember one fellow that I dated and if I looked over at another fellow he would catch my chin and turn it around to face him only. Then he'd send a dirty look over to the fellow he glanced at. Imagine being married to the likes of him Mary! He'd have me chained to the bed and wouldn't let me outside of the house at all. In the end he bashed my face in because of that very same reason walking down the street. You tell me that I am being cruel then. A woman has to be if she is to find the proper mate to father her children. Women have to be extrememly discriminating when it comes to that area and should never enter a relationship until she is absolutely certain. So as far as I'm concerned their feelings do not matter only mine. So yes, I will play mind games until I am satisfied with the person I am with.

Mary - 13/06/2006 11:55

Men are "just too easy to catch and you have to teach them a lesson". You make some men sound like runaway puppies or the like. That to me is downright insulting to the vast majority of men. Men have never "put me up on a pedestal", in fact I would be rather amused if they did. I like to be treated as an equal - niethr inferior nor superior. As for "territory", I am wondering which 17th century western-style novel you took that silly notion from. Diane, the man you described who didn't like you lookign at other men - marriy him? Date him? I wouldn't even walk into the same room as him. The fact that you didn't gie him hi marching orders long before he assualted you is just awful. I sincerely hope you had him charged. There is no excuse whatsoever for violence - I don't cae if you looked an entire troupe of other men. I don't agree that a women has to be cruel to find a proper mate - egardlss of whether she wants children or not. A man like that, I would play games with, In fact I wouldn't walk down the road with him. I have very short patience with anyone who would treat me in that possessive belittling manner.

Diana - 13/06/2006 23:00

Ah, come on now Mary. Some of them are indeed like runaway puppies! All you have to do with some of them is say "Hi", and they fall madly in love with you. Or go out for one date and they are yours forever! They 'jump' miles ahead in the relationship whereas you are still at the starting line. They are like the hare and I am the tortoise. But who won the race in the end Mary? It was the tortoise. That kind of thing exasperates me. How can you go to that level when you don't feel it yourself? The best thing of all is to get rid of them as quickly as you can. That territory is still alive and well today Mary. Try chatting for a good while with another fellow some night and you will see it rear it's ugly head from your husband. The fellow who you thought was your equal and who's always nice and calm! The reason that I stayed long with that batterer was because I enjoyed his attentions and I was very amused over it. In a funny sort of way I felt powerful having this effect on him. He made me feel like a queeny bee! I didn't bother going to the guards either that time. I sent my four brothers after him! I doubt if he ever hit a woman again after that.

Mary - 14/06/2006 10:42

I don't care much for analogies to childrens novels but in my experience it is women who used to jump way ahead in a relationship. He is at the dating stage, wheras some women are almost planning what a wedding might be like!!!!! I talk to men all day in work and in socila settigns I regularly chat male friends and acquantances. Occasionally my husband might tease m and say the fellow was tryign to chat me up and we'd have a laugh about it. My husband is secure and therefore has no need of jealousies or possessiveness (or any other typew of psychotic behavour) and yes, he is my equal. You were amised and enjoyed the attentions of a batterer??? Thats the last type of attention I'd enjoy from anyone. I'm not sure about volence being the answer to violence but I'm glad you took some action.

Sophie - 14/06/2006 11:01

Diana, this is anonymous from the original discussion. I am using a pseudonym to avoid confusion. Your recent posts have left me comletely enraged. While you and your opinions are the reason I left this discussion, I cannot remain silent having read the posts you left in the past week or so. At the start of the discussion, you told me that it was wrong to feel sexy, that a woman should feel confident in herself but never sexy. Therefore, I was wrong for being aware that men find me attractive. Your reasoning for this was the clearly erred understanding that men are 'programmed to rape'. However, if you believe this to be true, why then to you boast about cajoling men and teasing them? Given that once again, referring to the start of this discussion, you were campaigning for the return of polo neck jumpers and long flowy skirts which you claimed to wear night and day. That there is any truth in what you have written in the past week I find highly unlikely, especially if one is to refer to the exceptionally conservative views you displayed previously. I find it phenomenal how your story has changed throughout this discussion and quite frankly I find your lack of sincerity insulting to those of us who are still dealing with the pain of rape.

Diana - 15/06/2006 02:27

Sopie, At the start of this weeks discussion I mentioned that we have to acknowledge the part where we do tend to lead men on. And that is what I am doing. There is nothing at all insincere about it. The discussion was leading in that direction and so I had to put in that a flirty part of myself does exist. My earlier posts were referring to bad experiences that I had with some men. These latest ones if you like are the part that I played with other men. We are multi-faceted beings and plenty of times we will appear to be hypocritical. But if you understand what I am trying to say then you won't see it like that. I am just bringing out the part of me that exists at other times. I'm sure that you do the same and sometimes without even realising that you do it. All of us women travel on thin lines and I know that at any time in my life that I could be raped too. My flirting could indeed lead to rape but it doesn't stop me playing this game at times. Mary, that was a silly statement you made when you said that I enjoyed the attentions of a batterer. I didn't know he was a batterer until I got my face bashed in. That is the position that many women find themselves in. They didn't realise that the man could go so far. If some people see a woman beaten up for the first time then they presume that she was being beaten all the time when that wouldn't have been the case at all.

Mary - 15/06/2006 10:25

How can you possibly say you're leading men on and then say it;s not insincere - this is a contradiction in terms.

Diana - 15/06/2006 12:25

How is it a contradition Mary? I would play this game when I am in safer situations or where my judgement of that person is not a fearful one. All women lead men on just by being in their prescence alone. They in turn turn us on. Why the need to deny this when it is part of being human? You could be covered from top to toe and still be able to flirt expertly. When you go out scantily clad you are allowing the clothes to 'talk' for you which I don't think is necessary at all. It is your personality that should be able to do it. After all most of the time you won't be scantily clad with your partner anyway.

fifi - 16/06/2006 10:30

Diana..just out of interest, why do you like to lead men on? Dont you know they are simple creatures & are easily led? I dont say this in a patronising way, I mean they are more straight forward than women. you will also find that a woman can get a man easier than a man can get a woman. I wonder why you get such a thrill out of your ways? It obviously makes you feel good about yourself.. makes you feel desirable.. sexual.. wanted.. do you mind me asking what age you are? Could it be the years are fleeting on you & you need this constant "idolisation" to keep feeling like a goddess?

Anonymous - 16/06/2006 21:21

Diana what do you call safe situations this game as you call it can be very dangerous this I hope will not happen to you but you can make a very big mistake with some guy that will not take no and ending up in a not to safe situation no one like's to get led by acarrot only to have the carrot taken away before the game is up.?

Diana - 19/06/2006 00:10

Fifi, They say a woman should never tell her age so you are not getting it. I'm not exactly talking about present day flirting that I do. I'm talking about the flirting that we do throughout our lives. Of course we women love to feel desirable. Doesn't any person? Each and everyone of us have a God or Goddess within us anyway just as each of us are capable of having a genius inside in us. I don't find all men too easy to get either Fifi. Some men are but others will always be out of your reach. Sometimes these men can be the most attractive and are a challenge for women. I believe that no woman will flirt with a man unless she actually likes him. Sometimes you will find a man attracted to you that you just can't bear yourself. That man has to be got rid of as well as the man that comes on too strong. The man that is violent has to be got rid of and sometimes it takes a while to see his violence. Flirting is fun particularly with people that you like and most of us love to talk about sex. It is necessary to use when attracting a mate but of course we always have to be careful in situations. That is all that I am saying. We have to be careful but we also have to acknowledge the part of us that wants to flirt and have a bit of fun when circumstances allow it.

Shelly - 19/06/2006 14:11

Fifi Diane is 46 as she posted her age in an earlier post but seriously Diane I think you need serious help I really feel sorry for you, you have been through so much in your life and you can tell by the way you started posting and by your original posts the way your personality has changed its unbelievable sophie good luck in your struggle I hope you eventually find the strenght to bring these animals to justice and thats putting it nicely.

Diana - 19/06/2006 19:08

Shelly, I would love to know where you came from seeing as you never contributed before in this topic. If you looked at the title it says, "Women who flirt 'blamed' for rape which doesn't actually suggest rape but suggests the possible reasons behind rape. I don't know about anyone else but that is definately what I am trying to do here. It's extraordinary how it is taken up that I need some kind of help. It seems like one cannot introduce other angles to this topic. More's the pity.

Mary - 20/06/2006 09:44

With all respect Diana, the situation you were in with a batterer was not a safe one at all. If a man is 'lead on' just b being inthe presence of a woamn, then he really does need to step back, take a good look at himsefl and grow UP.

Shelly - 20/06/2006 14:01

Diane I have been following the post from the start but didn't think I could get involved until now and I'm only giving my opinion if you go back and read your posts from the start you will see where I am coming from and I didn't think you had to be in on the discussion from the start to voice your opinion, as I said previous its amazing how your attitude change throughout the whole discussion. Diane you start of giving sophie loads about the way girls dress then about girls flirting and then about not reporting it and throughout the discussion it turns out that you yourself have gone through all this torment and have had no help now to me I can't believe that anyone going through this can get through this alone without talking to friends family or a councilor sometimes friends and family are the best for counciling and diane theres no need to be negative towards me i'm only giving my opinion because I myself couldn't go through what you have and not seek some help and by reading your posts I think that you would benifit from this how can one live with all of that for so many years and not crack up so if it hasn't affected your life well fair play but to me it has affected you by not being honest in the start and for being dead against sophies choices tells that.

Diana - 20/06/2006 16:50

Okey, then Shelly. What angle do you want me to stay on? Admittedly I have had horrible teenage years and wouldn't like to repeat them for the world. If I could wipe that part of my life out completely it would be great but I suppose in one way it has made me tougher. Maybe that is why I like to play games. As a form of protection. Maybe I do tend to go to one extreme to another without realising it. This is what you could be seeing that I can't. I could even be looking for a type of revenge but of that I am not sure. I do tend to treat men a bit carelessly preferring my own feelings over their's. But there are some monsters out there many in hidden clothes. I'v been there and I'm wary. So I like to bring them so far and then put them in their place. That's because I will never allow them to put me in the positions that they did when I was young and vulnerable.

Shelly - 21/06/2006 10:51

Fair play to you Diane for admitting what you are doing but you have to try understand not all men are like this there are alot out there that are genuine and maybe alot of these men you are playing are genuinly interested in you maybe you should stop trying to play games do yourself up the way you normaly would when you had the confidence get out there and be yourself and see what reaction you get just be you and nobody else. Give it a try.

Diana - 22/06/2006 02:22

In this day and age Shelly a woman has to dress herself down instead of up to attract genuine men. Many women have spoken of this. The more they dress up the more monsters they catch. In an ideal world that obviously should not be the case but we are not living in an ideal world are we? Some women cannot even glance around a room without someone winking or giving them the eye. When a woman is bitten once she will always be twice shy. If you got a belt from a car but survived it then you will go out of your way to ensure that it never happens again. It's the same with men. They come in all kinds of disguises just as there is such a huge variety of cars. Playing games is like judging how far a car is back crossing that road. If he comes too close and you sense any kind of danger then you will leave him pass on just like the car. When women are not able to match the strength that men have physically then she has to use other tactics that are equally effective. We women can be just as powerful as men when we play our cards right.

bhne - 27/06/2006 19:39

hi, i just wanted to let you know about a self defence course i did recently, its called 'fight like a girl' (rape escape), you can find details about it on www.defendu.ie i found it really brillient, it was fun, and very sreious at the same time. teaches you what to do in the worst situation, and how to avoid getting in to one, it was easy to understand and the teachers were fantastic. best bit was at the end of each class the teacher puts on a full body armour suit, and you get to practice all the moves on him, a great way to relieve stress!!!! but really, i thought this class was deffinte for all women of all ages, and it isn't all fighting either, it was more about being aware of yourself and your personal space, and how to not make yourself an easy target.

FINN - 29/06/2006 22:18

wake up Diane what planet are you on?that poor girl did not asked to be raped just because she was wearing a skirt she did not even no them for gods sake

Diana - 01/07/2006 03:32

Finn, I'm on planet Earth, the place where men do get led on by the clothes we women wear. Why? What planet are you on? The one where every woman can walk around naked and the men will take off their hats and say "Good evening Ma'am"!. That's probably Paradise that you are thinking of. Of course that woman didn't want to be raped. Who's saying that? I'm certainly not. I'm doing my best to prevent rape here in case you didn't notice.

Ann - 01/07/2006 14:10

Poor Anon, how anyone can justify what happened to her is beyond me. A crime was committed. Liam, it is an insult to all men to say they cannot control themselves, highly insulting. But for 4 men to rape a girl is unforgivable. I don't blame you at all Anon for not reporting it, as that would have been another ordeal. I believe if you had reported it at the time they would have caught the criminals but you didn't so no point beating yourself up over that. At least you went to counselling. I truly hope you get over this & understand that you did nothing to warrent this attack on yourself. They were just scumbags. Don't let them take any more of your life. Diane, All I can say to you is that life is not black & white. A little understanding & sympathy would go a long way. Rape is not a new crime & has nothing to do with short skirts, more to do with lack of respect & warped thinking. If we followed your line of thinking we would all dress as paupers to avoid muggings! Nobody askes for a crime to be perpetrated on them. We can't all go around scared because there are sicko's out there, afraid if we do certain things we are asking for it!

Diana - 03/07/2006 14:30

Ann, short skirts have an awful lot to do with encouraging rape. How many young women are going to discos nowadays wearing short skirts with nothing on underneath? What are they looking for? I get the impression that you don't seem to know what is going on at all. A mini-skirt will make a woman feel sexy and that can lead to all sorts of temptation after within the woman herself. I wear mini-skirts particularly to enhance this feeling. What other reason would I wear it? That is the part that you are missing. The woman has an input into this but you are trying to make her blameless. Yet I will acknowledge that I do indeed contribute to this and therefore I must be wary and on the look-out to avoid attracting the wrong people.

FINN - 03/07/2006 15:45

good on you ann ,if you cant wear what you like whats the world coming too,so if your going out for a night out you put on a skirt so you Dian would say better take it off i might get raped if i wore a skirt?

Mary - 03/07/2006 16:12

Diane, short skirts have sweet fizz all to do with rpae they never had. Rape is commited by severly warped twisted sick individuals. It happens to women in jeans, women in long skirts, women in overcosts and it even happens in the type of countries where women are forced to cover from head to toe. What a women is earing underneath or what she is "looking for" does not justify rape. Lookin for a one night stand or whatever dos not justify sick twisted behaviour from any man or woman. Does a Scotsman who wears nothing under his kilt give a woman the right to rape him? OF COURSE not. What are you talkin about with "all sorts of temptation". I am wearing a new top and nivce perfume today and that meakes me feel sexy, what sort of "temptation" will that lead me to to do you think? It certainly won't tempt to rape any man on the way home, I assure you. I wear a mini-skirt (and other things too) to feel good about myself not to "lead to temptation". There is NO BLAME ateched to any women or man who is raped be they young, old, attrative, unatrative, ressed up or dressed down and the suggestion that their is only fuels the sick myth that is perpetrated by rapists. Are you a rich lady Diane. Perhaps you dive a nice car? Are you "asking" so for the car to be robbed or for your house to be burgled or your possesions stolen. Is it your fault if an unscrupulous theif breaks into your home? Of course, it's not.

Sophie - 03/07/2006 17:22

"You are trying to make her blameless"... Diana, this comment directly implies that the man who rapes a woman is not solely to blame as the woman is to blame also. I will ask you a direct question and I want a direct answer, ie. no avoiding the question by talking your way around it. A simple yes or no answer will suffice. So Diana, am I, whether partially or completely, to be held responsible for being raped? I am very interested to hear your answer as I am sure everybody else in this discussion will be also.

Diana - 03/07/2006 17:25

That was a good comparison you made about the car Mary. My car is indeed nice enough and it did get robbed. It was missing for 10 days and when I eventually got it back someone was after attempting to burn it. To try and prevent that happening in the future I installed an alarm and I keep the keys near me in bed. However this may not be enough but it certainly makes the job more difficult. It's the same with rape and those unexpected individuals out there. You have to set up 'alarms' within and without yourself to prevent this happening in the future. For those who have been raped in the past they will know what could have added to this already. You have to be consious of any particular part you had to play in yourself no matter how little. Being afraid to say no is one of those areas. If you can't say it a man could get the impression that it is okey to go ahead. You have to watch your messages. If you are dressed very scantily and give some men the 'eye' you will do the same. Being drunk and walking down lonely streets by yourself is another one. You know that as well as I do Mary and by saying that every woman should be able to wear anything regardless is only encouraging something to happen to them I think. We have to be careful and a small bit sensible here, surely be to God. The majority of men are indeed more turned on by mini-skirts rather than trousers or long skirts and while women can still be raped regardless of her clothing her risk has to be higher with scimpy clothes.

FINN - 03/07/2006 19:48

Diana, you said earlyer in your notes that you like playing games with men when you go out?like flirting with them ,then giving them the bruse off,that too gives out the wrong messages to men ,so you dont have to wear short skirts to send out wrong messages?

Diana - 03/07/2006 20:03

Sophie, you asked me a question and my answer is yes. If you want you can see my reasons for that yes above. It is also a partial yes.

Mary - 04/07/2006 09:00

"You have to be consious of any particular part you had to play in yourself no matter how little" - What about the old lady who is raped walking down the street? - The middle aged women wo is raped in her own home - The nine year old child who is raped on her way home from schoo? Are you sayign all these people had some part to play in them being raped? What if they were mugged, or murdered? Would that be theri fault too? To try to shift the blame for such a despicable crime onto the victim is despicable. Yes, of course a women should be able to say no. I agree. It's something she should never be afraid to do say. - To a stranger, to a colleague or to her partner. Dressing scantily and giving some men the 'eye' does not give any man the right to rape - ever. Nothing ever gives a man (or indeed a woman) that right any more than it gives them the right to rob or kill. Being drunk and walking down lonely streets by yourself does sadly put people, both men and women, at risk of coming to harm. That sadly, is the society we live in. Young girls and indeed guys on a night out should be advised, I think, to stay with the group or if they become seperated, get a taxi home - for the sake of safety. Yes, every woman should be able to wear anything. As for that "encouraging something to happen to them" - again you are shifting blame from a very sick twisted individual - onto the victim. Next, you'll be saying that a women should not wear make up, should not wear jewellery, should not go out after dark, should not go out unaccompanied. And that Diane, is starting to sound dangerously like certain middle-eastern extremist threocracies where women ae forced to be covered from head to two and treated worse than cattle.

Mary - 04/07/2006 12:52

Oh no no no, Sophie. You are NOT responsible for what hapened to you. Those horrible vicious dare I say evil perpetrators are responsible. Never ever blame yourself. Any more than you are responsible if you get mugged or atacked

Diana - 04/07/2006 12:52

Yes, Finn. My games can send out the wrong messages all right and that's why I have admitted that I do it. It can be very dangerous but it doesn't stop me doing it at times. A lot of this is down to our monthly cycle and we are following our hormones at times. We have our urges too believe it or not and they can drive us on to be extra flirty. Wearing a mini-skirt adds to this feeling without a shadow of a doubt or at least it does for me. Legs can give extra messages remember particularly when they are on display. You don't see much of us women wearing flat shoes either with the mini-skirts. The high-heels are deliberately worn to make the legs look far longer. So we do dress up deliberately to attract and I think every woman would admit this afterwards.

Mary - 04/07/2006 17:38

"A lot of this is down to our monthly cycle and we are following our hormones at times" Oh gimme a BREAK please. I thought we had spent so long freeing ourselves and others of he pathetic notion that we are somehow tied to our hormones. Next you'll be saying that the last time you cried as because "of your hormones" instead of just admitting it as hissy fit or that somehow upset you. Of course we have urges but we ae not so foolish as to believe that this is all down to our hormones. This does not drive me or indeed many of us to be flirty. Bear in mind also, with som many of us on artifical contraception, this completely negates whatever flimy excuse "our hormones" might have been. Unless your pubescent, that, as an excuse doesn't wash. The last time I dressed up, to feel good - about ME. I was out with four female (partnered) pals and I think the only guyS we had any chat with all night wre the waiter and two lads behind the bar. Apart from my partner who collected me and to be fair I'm always talking to him.

Diana - 04/07/2006 17:46

Mary, I cannot understand the rape of an old woman or the rape of a child. This is a bigger step again above rape. I'm not even going to go there. I'm coming from ordinary everyday experiences. When I was sixteen and couldn't say no, then I was effectively raped. I knew it myself at the time but I was too afraid to say no. I don't want any woman to be in this position again. I cannot understand why you cannot see this. This straight away can prevent many rapes that are happening around the world at the moment. I allowed myself to be raped when I could have been stronger and said no. I know that he wouldn't have forced me if I said no but he was my employer and I thought I might lose my job. You have admitted that it is dangerous to walk down a road by oneself yet you see no problem with the way a woman dresses. Why do we women give some men the 'eye'? It's because we fancy them. This leaves us open to be cajoled into giving sex. So we women do have a part to play here. You are trying to tell me that I am some sort of a prude and that next I won't allow this or that. It seems to be that the next thing you will want women to do is to walk naked down through the streets just to see what will happen. If so, why don't you try it yourself?

Mary - 06/07/2006 11:11

I cannot understand the rape of anyone, male female, middle aged, child or senior citizen. You were in a truely awful postion where you felt you couldn't say no and you are perfectly right in not wanting any women to be in that position again. Every women has the right to say no, to anyone regardless of her age or their status. Nor shoudl any women be "cajoled" into sex. No means no. Givign men "the eye" does not give them the right to rape. It never has and never will. I want women to be safe and comfortable regardless of what she wears.

Diana - 06/07/2006 13:19

Mary, Maybe you didn't feel your hormones but I certainly did. You can't look for a break from these when it is part of your physical make-up. And yes, there are times of the month that we are more emotional than other times. I'm not afraid of our hormones Mary. That's what makes me female. Sure without them I'd have no breasts or curvy waist. I'm very grateful to them and I respect them and when I am ovulating I do feel extra sexy. You can dismiss your ones if you like but I'm not. Contraception certainly dulls these hormones. I was on the coil myself and I never felt sexy. Now I have it out again and thanks be to God I feel a bit normal again. That was a nightmare in that sense but at least I didn't get any periods. But now that they are back again I have a comparison again to make in that some days I feel sexy and some days I don't. It's not an excuse then Mary. It is a fact.

Mary - 06/07/2006 16:56

I'm not afraid of my hormones but I'm certainly not a slave to them nor do I use them as an excuse for irrational / temeramental behaviour. I haven't ovulated in about 17 years. This does not stop me feelign sexy but I don't use that feeling to claim I am a slave to my hormones. Contraception certainly dulls these hormones but it doesn't dtop me feeling good about myself or feelinf feminine. In fact if anythign it frees me and most other women from the worry of pregnancy. I was on the coil (IUD) at the moment (my second one) and it doesn't stop me feeling sexy. In fact the carefree feeling I have from it adds to that. I plan on continuing on it as long as I can. Actually, strangley enough my period is almost non-existent. Two friends of mine reckong this is fantastic and would consider it just for that reason but I miss them - probably they were a reassuance from when I was on the pill for so long. I'm not sure that I feel sexier when I have mine, I just look on them as a fact of life. A day like any other.

Sophie - 06/07/2006 21:53

Diana, thanks so much for putting only part of the blame on me. I'd hate to think that the entire event was wholly my fault... I would firstly like to say, while I did expect that exact response, how dare you put any blame on me for a trauma that was forced upon me and will live with me for the rest of my life. You know very little about what happened that night and therefore you simply don't have a significant amount of information in order to pass judgement. You seem to have some kind of mutated conception that any woman who is raped is either a) asking for it or b) doesn't have the ability to say no. Rape is never asked for and is and act of force whereby the woman simply cannot get the man or men to cease, despite her desperate and ardent efforts. If you think the fact that I am confident and that I was wearing a skirt above the knee somehow gives the message that I would just love four men to force themselves on me, once again you are severely wrong. It makes me sick to the stomach that you could even suggest this. What exactly do you expect me to do, Diana? Canel my gym membership, start eating take aways and junk food in the hope that I get bad skin and become overweight? Perhaps I could wear clothes three sizes too big for me to hide my figure. Such notions are preposterous. We live in a time when girls and women are becoming increasingly self conscious and depressed about the way they look and you are encouraging this. Women need to learn to be more confident and to be able to go out and feel sexy. This is not so that they will attract more men but so that they will feel better within themselves. I work hard to be fit and healthy and you can be damned sure that I want to show off my hard work. Never have I dressed like a slut or even close to it. The fact that I wear skirts above my knee does not instantly make me a man-eating monster. It merely means that I am proud of who I am and how I look. The fact that you rebuke this attitude makes you a very backward person indeed. Never once did I advocate what happened to me that night. Never did I give any of those pigs the eye, I had barely spoken to them as I was in my own group of friends. I was neither flirtatious nor encouraging towards them. I blamed myself for so long over this but through counselling I came to realise that I didn't actually know why I was to blame. The reason I didn't know is that I am not to blame. Mary, thanks for your support and understanding. Friends and family have to be supportive but it is encouraging to know that people who are not obliged to be so are understanding also.

Diana - 07/07/2006 18:20

Sophie, It sounds to me as though your counselling sessions weren't much good because you are still looking for some sort of approval on your part. Yet you have the cheek to condemn women that cannot say no. A woman that cannot say no cannot stop a man going all the way at all. Do you realise that? You dismissed that as if it meant nothing at all. For a person who was already raped you would think that there was some understanding within you but it appears that there is not. I would be quite sceptical then in believing that you were raped at all because you seem to be hell bent on condemning my views preferring to add sarcastic undertones instead. Maybe you should go back to your counselling sessions and tell them that they did a bad job.

Mary - 10/07/2006 11:23

Diana, I don't think Spohie is looking for any sort of approval and certainly not from you or I. Good grief, she doesn't even know us. She was merely asking you for your opinion. As for women who feel they cannot say no. his is where self-esteem and assertiveness have a huge part to play I believe. This is whewre we must educate girls (and indeed boys) that it is their body and their their right to say no regardless of where the person is older, stronger, a colleague, a partner or anyone else for that matter.

louthchick - 10/07/2006 11:29

No woman should ever take any part of the blame for rape or sexual assualt....Maybe some should have been more careful but never blame yourself.. To Diana, you said I was not as respectable as I think, I sure am. I was not the one who said in a post that \'I liked being groped\'.

louthchick - 10/07/2006 12:02

SOPHIE, You Keep your head held high. It wasn't your fault. I'm so angry at those individuals who think otherwise. Its bad enough being raped never mind some IDIOT telling you it was the victims fault... Thankfully you sound like a strong individual... Ignore the ignorant stupid individuals here, someday the might change their tune........ Take Care...

Shelly - 10/07/2006 13:55

Diane, I think it is you that should go and get some councilling by god your so bitter against sophie this girl has done absolutely nothing wrong and all you are doing since this post was started is critising this girl you should be ashamed to call yourself a woman and theres no point in writing back trying to justify your taughts because thats all you've done since the start if anybody that has written on here I think your the one with serious and screwed up problems maybe you should give councilling a shot I can't understand why you have been so hard on this girl she has been through the mill and you are being so cruel to her. Sophie I wish you the best of luck in the future hopefully you can get your life back to some sort of normality good luck.

Diana - 10/07/2006 15:44

Self-esteem and assertiveness is quite hard for 15 and 16 year olds to have Mary. Their bodies are either still developing and their emotions can be all over the place. Many of them are only beginning to notice the opposite sex (some earlier) and do not know how to handle situations like this at all. Then it also depends on who they meet. Some girls at this stage go out of their way to try and pull boyfriends so that they can appear to be more popular to their friends. Others are moving out into the workplace which is a place that is foreign and alien to them and can be at their most vulnerable. They are not sure how the rules work and some can get the impression that they must do certain things to stay in employment. This I believe is what happened to me. If I was to leave at that stage how could I go home and tell my parents (who had great hopes for me) that I left my job. At 15 years of age I would not have had the courage at all to go through with trying to bring my boss up for assault or rape. You would have to have some great system in schools or homes to overcome this problem. Many many examples would have to be shown and tactics employed to get the message across to young girls. But I agree that it is hugely necessary but a concentration on feelings would have to be enacted. It is our feelings that seem to leave us down in these situations.

Diana - 10/07/2006 19:34

Louthchick and Shelly. The next time a judgement happens and some fellow is left off with rape maybe you should take a moment to consider why he was left off. Maybe the judges are Iat fault. I hope that ye will have the courage to go up and say that to the judge just as you have in the same way to me. It is so obvious that you haven\'t heard my messages throughout this topic.

Sophie - 10/07/2006 22:07

Diana, if that post was written with the sole intention of insulting me you have achieved just that. You deliberately misread my post and twisted it to suit your own argument. The accusation that I would actually dismiss any woman who has been raped, no matter what the circumstances, is deeply offensive. It is in fact you who is condemning women who are raped, myself included, if they do not follow your ideal way of living. Never could I insult a woman who has been raped by trivialising her situation. I initially stopped counselling after one session believing that nobody could help me. Deciding to go back helped immensely and I made huge progress which I could not have achieved by myself. My counsellor got me to where I am now and while you may not believe so, I feel that it is a damn sight better place than I was in 15 months ago. Mary is right, I wasn't looking for your approval in the least, I was merely asking a frank question. I can't get over how cruel your remarks in that post were. My sarcasm in my previous post was in response to your partial blaming of me for being raped. However, while that may have been insulting, I never expected you to actually accuse me of making this whole thing up. You may think a lot of things about me but I am not a liar and I am not so twisted as to make something so disgusting up. People who cry rape who haven't been raped sicken me. I don't understand it and I never will. It is these exact people who stop me from reporting it. The likelihood of a conviction is just too small to go through the pain of reporting it. Other than that Diana I don't know what to say to you other than repeat how hurtful that post was. It was always clear to me that our perspectives were polar opposites but I never expected you to come out with such brutal comments as that.

Ann - 11/07/2006 01:07

Diane, A girl can say 'No' as long and as often as she likes but when there are 4 guys to say 'no' to then what is the point? This is the situation here with Sophie. What happened to her was not her fault in any way, no matter what she was wearing, saying, doing. There are girls who go around in mini skirts & belly tops that turn all men off as they don't have the figures for it & there are also girls who go around with trousers and/or long skirts who would turn any man on. Its nothing to do with clothing. I reckon you are trying to say that we should all be responsible for our part in what happens to us, which I agree with to a point but in the case of Sophie she had absolutely no part whatsoever to play in what happened to her. 4 males versus 1 (non compliant)female is a crime. They were bully boys who overpowered a girl & nothing can be said to justify what they put her through. When you think of it, if you really genuinely believe that Sophie was responsible for absolutely any part in this sad debacle then is it any wonder she never felt she could go to the Gardai or take it to court. What on earth would she then be subjecting herself to? Men who are brought up to respect women do not go around intimidating them or raping them so to me, the problem lies soley with those 4 guys who perpetrated a crime on this young girl. They are not safe to have roaming around in our society. I just hope that Sophie does, in time, diferentiate between a crime that was perpetrated on her and not think that all men are the same. My heart goes out to her as I feel she is coping very well with it all, indeed better than most and I hope that continues.

Mary - 11/07/2006 09:06

Oh yes Self-esteem and assertiveness is quite hard for 15 and 16 year olds to have and this I believe is where schools and indeed parents have a huge part to play. Teens must be made aware that their bodies are their own and it's not acceptable for anyone to try to cajole them into doing something they don't want to do. I think most of us noticed what a boy was before 16 altho' we may not have been particularly interested in them. Parents then must be aware that their teens are going to get into situations with the opposite sex and really have to overcome their embarrassment (if they are embarrassed) at talking about these things and help their teens get the confidence they need in handling these types of situations. Peer influence is huge too. I remember "concerned pals" asking me (many years ago) when I had my first boyfriend, 'what do you mean you haven't kissed him yet, he mustn't fancy you?'. Very few 15 and 16 year old Diane are moving out into the workplace. In fact I don't think it's even legal to work under 16 anymore. But for when they do, they will, hopefully, be older and more confident in themselves, but still they must (and again schools have a part to play) always know their rights, as employees and as people. In reality, if your boss attempted to dismiss you becuase you resisted him or said no, he would have been doing so unlawfully but of course you didn't know that - which was my point about knowing your rights. Not your fault at all, of course, that's not what I meant but as you mention, a system should be in place so people know their rights.

louthchick - 11/07/2006 09:22

DIANA, Please 15 + 16 Year old girls are a lot more 'street wise' than you seem to think... Do you not see them hanging about wearing next to nothing??? It's up to the parents to take control, of course only the parents that give a damm will advise their daughters as much as possible...I don't know if you got any talk like that judging from your previous posts..... ''hormones'' + ''not being able to say no''!!!

FINN - 11/07/2006 10:51

Diana you should,nt have been working at a young age,what about school?

Diana - 11/07/2006 13:50

Sophie, all I was trying to say when I mentioned your part or in fact any woman's part in rape would be the circumstances that led up to it. What are your intentions in the future to avoid this happening again? I don't want to see any woman raped and never had. How any of you picked up these messages is beyond me. I have made it as plain as pie. Of course no man should be allowed to rape anyone but try telling that to every man in the country and especially those who have psychiatric problems as well. It is also taking us women to solve these type of problems. Very little men get involved in matters of rape. Why is'nt there a proper education system with regards to teaching men not to do this to women? It's all very fine saying that women can do this or do that but the reality is that we end up attracting the likes of these people to us. Until it comes to the stage where no man will ever rape a woman then we have to be on our guard and we have to be aware of everything we do in order to prevent this. That's the first stop always. Awareness. Awareness of everything. The different types of men, the way we flirt, our clothes, our talk, their talk, our body language, their body language, the way we leave pubs, where we go walking ect. We should all be equipped with skills in self-defence and assertiveness in saying no. We should have some kind of a code set up on a mobile phone so that we could be traced or some kind of an alarm button to say that we are in trouble. There is much we can do but many of us are not doing it. That's all I have ever been saying and will continue to say.

Ann - 11/07/2006 19:47

Diane, I can see where you are coming from but the message is a little mixed. No amount of awareness or indeed no amount of self defence would ward off 4 blokes against 1 girl unless she was Superwoman. Indeed it may well have put her in even more danger.

Diana - 12/07/2006 02:20

Finn, You are right. If I had stayed on in school more than likely I would never have come up against this awful predicament. That is why I would love to see the Leaving Certificate become compulsory here in Ireland. I know that more than likely I would have been a lot safer and I would have been more mature going out into the workplace. I never reached my potential at all by leaving school early.

louthchick - 12/07/2006 09:09

DIANA, It is so 'obvious' that I havn't understood your comments?? I understood loud and clear DIANA. It's very obvious, U made yourself quite clear in earlier posts.... 'An education system teaching men not to do this to women' What??? I think a lot of it should come from the home... No man is taught to abuse women or people. Assertivness in saying no?? No to what exactly?? No woman I know is afraid of saying NO!! Anyone being raped I'm sure screams no but will that stop the Rapist?? NO. ''We should have some kind of a code set up on a mobile phone so that we could be traced or some kind of an alarm button to say that we are in trouble.'' ''That's all I have ever been saying and will continue to say.'' DIANA, I suggest you read over your earlier posts. 'Keep those skirts for the husband's alone at home.' Is one example.. I also suggest you read 'Sophie Posted: 10/07/2006 22:07' It says it all...

louthchick - 12/07/2006 12:35

Diana Posted: 12/07/2006 02:20 Your last comment is even more ridiculous than the others! Do you read over before submitting for posting? Come on Diana, leaving school early means nothing. Many people leave school early and still achieve fantastic careers. I am one of those people. You can do anything you want to do. It's all up to the individual. Do not try putting the blame on 'If I had stayed on in school more than likely I would never have come up against this awful predicament.' Many leave school + lead a sucessful life or career, Its called 'Drive' some people are just determined some NOT!!!!

Diana - 12/07/2006 14:39

Louthchick, Of course much teaching goes on in the home but it is obviously not enough. Everyone of us are on the agreement that a comprehensive sex education in the schools is needed. Why would we want this if children were being educated properly in the home? What makes you think that every woman that you know can say No? Are you a mind-reader now or something and are you there in their prescence when they are in these circumstances? That was one of the silliest statements I have seen you writing so far. You know damn well what the 'no' that I was talking about was and if not go back and read my posts. What was wrong with the mobile phone set up? I would love something like this. I could have it hooked up to my husband's phone or a friends and it would only be a matter of pressing a particular button rather than having to make a phone call. Have you seen or heard the talk about some young girls going to discos with nothing on underneath? Would you like to see your daughter carrying on like this? Of course you wouldn't. I don't think that you are in tune with today's teenagers at all or what they get up to. But when someone keeps applauding the mini-skirt all the time then what would you expect.

Diana - 12/07/2006 16:51

Well done Louthchick. You were obviously more mature than I was. For that you should congratulate yourself. It must be great to know that you are more advanced than others. God only knows what you think of me. I must be very ignorant in your eyes when I didn't do as well as you did. Sorry for not having that great drive that you had. I'll try better in my next life at that particular age.

Mary - 12/07/2006 17:09

Louth, the vast majority of those who leave school early - before the legal age of 16 do not go on to achieve well career/earnigns wise and the statistics prove that. You are the exception. Congratulations You can do anything you want to do, with sufficient intelligence, confidence and education but the majority of those who leave school early do not have the educaton or often the confidence. And no I'm not talking about your or Diane or anyone specific Perhaps if Diane had stayed at school longer she would have had more confidence when she left and would have been more sure of herself. Tho' it goes without saying that lack of confidence does not ever excuse a rapist, or theif or murderer for that matter. Nothing does. The majority of of those with a sucessful life or career have continued or advanced their education and had the drive and motivation to do so. No amount of determination will replace an education

Sophie - 12/07/2006 21:37

Diana. I would firstly like to point out that you are a complete hypocrite. You rebuked to me for using sarcasm in my argument, however, your entire last post (16:51) is riddled with it. Furthermore, don't think for a second that education automatically prevents women from being raped. I have my Leaving Cert, an honours degree and am now awaiting the results of my Masters. Great, so I am well educated, but this did not prevent me from being raped. Yes, I was able to say 'no', but look how far that got me. I wholeheartedly agree that all women and girls need to learn and know how to say 'no' to unwanted advances but having a good education under your belt by no means acts as a deterrant. Much of my confidence and ability to say no comes not from my education but my family, particularly my parents. My education provides me with a good CV but it is through everyday life and my family that I have learnt to recognise when I am in trouble. Unfortunately the problem with rape is that it happens so quickly and so unexpectedly that knowing how to say 'no' just isn't enough. I am not saying that an education may not have helped in your situation, but I agree with Louthchick that confidence and intuition are, in my experience at least, virtues which are born of a good up-bringing, not a good education.

Diana - 13/07/2006 00:53

Mary, it's not so bad leaving school either if you think that you are useless there or always getting low marks. A job can take you out of this and bring you up. But if you leave school early after already doing very well there it is a lot worse. You will feel after a while that you let yourself down especially if you take on a job that doesn't match your capabilities. Your education stays stagnant at a certain level for the rest of your life as well unless you do something to try and increase it. I felt that I threw all my talent away when I left school early and this automatically knocks ones confidence. If I had stayed on at least I wouldn't have had that feeling of leaving myself down so I would just have to be a bit more confident in a job then I was when I left early. After doing the leaving cert the 'drive' that Louthchick talks about would probably have been there for me at least. If education didn't mean so much to me I would not be determined today to get all my children to do the Leaving Cert. One of my boys wanted to leave school early and was very persistant so I agreed on the condition that he would learn a trade. This he has done and is a fine builder today and very happy with his work. So maybe my drive came later and I passed it unto my kids instead.

FINN - 13/07/2006 18:03

a married woman got raped last weekin my area,she was 35 walking home a man grabed her raped her,a man came across the atacker and beat him up and put him in hosptal now his been brought up for beating him.The atacker deserved every thing he got,That poor bloke was only helping the women and he got locked up for it.

Diana - 13/07/2006 18:29

Sophie, you are just as much of a hypocrite as I am. That particular post was for Louthchick and not you. Or are you Louthchick now as well? It also seems that you are speaking for someone who was raped rather than yourself. At least I had a real life experience and I would know by your posts that you would know where I was coming from. You don't seem to know at all though, do you?

FINN - 13/07/2006 20:53

Diana,its not to late to go back to school, my husband is 35 and his going back in sept for 3 years,anyway skirts are nothing to do with rape,i think its the law thats wrong,if a man rapes a women they get 3or4 years for it then there out,the law is not tough enough,they know they get away with it ,thats whats wrong ,not skirts;;;;;;;

Mary - 14/07/2006 09:11

Diane, any harm asking, if you were doing well in school and liked it - why did you leave?

Shelly - 14/07/2006 11:08

There you go again Diane, Diane I don't think anybody understands you because you say one thing and then turn it around to mean something else answer one question why on earth do you keep picking on sophie the girl had the courage to come on here and write about her awful experience and you just can't help yourself to keep putting her down Diane grow up your the one on this discussion that is talking absolute rubbish and nobody else I really do feel sorry for you why don't you just let the barriers down and bring the real you out because at the moment I don't think your being you thats why your talking the way you are saying one thing and meaning another.

Sophie - 14/07/2006 12:36

Diana, if you would care to take a look at my post again I was saying to you that while an education may have helped you in your situation, it does not help in every incident of rape and it did not help in mine. I have no idea where you are getting this notion that what I have been writing since this discussion started is a lie as quite frankly, if it was a lie, I would not waste my time arguing with such an ignorant and uncompassionate person as yourself. The reason I joined this discussion was to try to understand how people can blame a woman for being raped purely on appearances and flawed impressions. There is nothing I would love more than for those men to be sent away but unfortunately there are people like you in the world and so long as there are people who hold your beliefs, many, many more incidents of rape will go unreported. You give out to me for not understanding where you are coming from but you just have absolutely no clue and nor do you wish to have a clue about my situation. I don't understand how any man or woman can be so harsh or unfeeling as you.

Diana - 14/07/2006 13:29

Sophie, I have every clue about what you could have gone through believe me. But you seem to be more concerned about my views about rape rather then your own. To be honest it is only 16 months since you were supposed to have been raped. I would imagine that after this time a person would have a different mindset then the one you appear to have at the moment. I'd hardly be able to talk about such an horrific rape by this time and I would have had plenty of agreement by you on some of the situations that I have brought up so far. This surprises me. Instead you prefer to attack my views as if I am against you. Yet you haven't reported this incident at all. My views should not be important at all if you thought that rape was so horrific. I am only looking at events that could lead to rape and how we could keep ourselves safer in the future from attracting rape. There are weirdos out there who can get turned on by a mere glance. There are weirdos who stalk women walking on their own. One has to be able to see these people and not be under the illusion that they do not exist. Some of them are not these bent over leery looking men but some of them are dressed in the classiest of clothes and hold high positions in business's. Thankfully there are many many men out there who are not like this at all and are pure gentlemen. But I don't think a lot of women out there are capable of detecting who is who.

Mary - 14/07/2006 14:12

So, are you sdayign women should never glance at any man for fear of "attracting rape" Perhaps we should not own anythign either for fear of "attracting theft" Or perhaps you should never left on to be alive for fear of "attracting murder".

louthchick - 14/07/2006 14:33

Maybe I was one of the lucky ones but however the drive I had had a lot to do with it. But I was and still am a very determined person. I do not agree with you at all Diana about a lot of things. No means NO no one should be afraid to day it.. Parents should be able to discuss sexual things with their Kids and advise them on not putting themselves in 'certain' situations, parents should NOT be embarressed to do this... I read a post by you saying that your 46,I am a lot younger than you and I have nieces + nephews in their teens Please don't tell me I'm out of touch with teenagers, please!!!! No mother would like their daughters wearing no underwear or skirts up too their butt at 15 or 16 years of age. I certainly do not approve and it's inappropriate and unecessary. But we all know that we cannot be around them 24/7 and we can do our utmost to make they are safe + OK at all times...

louthchick - 14/07/2006 14:55

''But when someone keeps applauding the mini-skirt all the time then what would you expect.'' BTW Diana, because a person wears a mini skirt it is by no means an invite for a romp!!!! However, whay would any parent let their Daughter of 15/16 wear something that barely covers their butt cheeks??? I certainly would not at all. But yes I am aware they change once they are out of the home... It's not easy bringing up young ladies!!!!!!

Diana - 14/07/2006 16:19

Mary, there is no need to be having unsubstantiated slurs on my professional views on life. Louthchick, Of course No means No that is if you can say the word. It's a very small word but in certain circumstances it becomes one of the biggest words on the planet. You have to have confidence to say that word. Some women particularly young women sadly haven't got it. I will feely admit that I hadn't confidence at that age of 15. The big question is why didn't I? If you do happen to say no many men pick it up that you mean yes! There was even a book out entitled, "Why women mean yes when they actually say no". Some men are under the impression that we work back to front and that is how we are so hard to figure out! Having neices and nephews doesn't make one in tune with teenagers Louthchick. You have to live with them. At the moment I have four of them 24/7 having already gone through three of them who are in their early 20's. I have four daughters. I can turn around with one daughter and not feel that I have to worry too much about her when she is outside at night. That is due to her personality but then I have another daughter who would make you fret with worry all night. I can see her being more careless than the other daughter and while the first girl might not escape either I still think that my second daughter has a higher risk. For me a girls personality has a part to play even if it is only seen as a tiny part. If a man is accused wrongly of rape it is down to the girl's personality afterwards isn't it?

Sophie - 14/07/2006 17:48

Diana, following this post I am not going to argue with you about whether or not I was raped any more. While I wish to god that it was true, I simply am not pathetic enough to stoop to such a level as to claim that I was raped when I wasn't. I find the accusation inexplicably upsetting. What I went through and what I still go through is very real. I am aware that I do not fit into your preconception of what every woman who has recently been raped should act like. While it still hurts and I think about it god knows how many times a day, I made a decision that I wasn't going to let this beat me and it hasn't. It is only in the past few months that I have gained back the confidence and strength I had before I was raped. Now, being raped is something I carry but is not something that dictates my life. The reason I am so concerned with what you think is because I want to see why people could possibly blame a woman for something so awful. It is not because I seek your approval or empathy but rather so that I can argue against opinions like yours which have prevented me from reporting this. You seem to think that not reporting something so horrendous automatically means that I am making this whole thing up. I have tried explaining my reasons to my family also, they are furious that I have let these men get away with it. It's not that I don't want to but I am absolutely terrified of reporting it. I know you will think I am entirely selfish in my reasons and to some extent you will be right but I just can't go through it over and over again to a lawyer, jury and court. I don't want people looking at me as I tell them in detail what happened, it's something I am deeply ashamed of. As I have told you before, I have always seen myself as a very strong person and this makes me feel defeated and humiliated. To go through all the agony of reliving that pain and humiliation, of seeing those animals again, and then for the jury to decide that I was drunk and therefore they should be let off is just too painful. I probably haven't explained myself very well and I realise it is difficult for others to understand but that is why I will never report it; not because it never happened. Please do not insult me again, Diana, by casting my experience aside as something that never happened.

Ann - 15/07/2006 19:28

Diane, Didn't you just answer your own question there? You have 4 daughters, 1 you fret about because of her personality. So, regardless of what she wears, you worry about her because of her personality? I think you are being over anxious about your girls. If you brought them up in the way you state is 'appropriate' then why are you worrying? Its nothing to do with clothes, if, as you say yourself, there are weirdo's and other such types (males of course) out there. There are weirdo's that attack & rape old ladies. There are also weirdo's that attack & rape men too! Its got nothing to do with formal education. A 15 or 16 year old is exactly that. Let them be 15 or 16. We all have to learn our lessons in life, some of us learn the hard way but its not because of wearing a stupid mini skirt, its because we have been unfortunate to meet a weirdo! Here is a scenario for you. What if Sophie had reported the crime that was perpetrated on her and what if you were on the jury? Would you have freed those 4 'THUGS' because Sophie was wearing a skirt (it wasn't even a mini)? People deal with things in different ways. Your way is not necessarily Sophie's way. Neither way is right or wrong, its just the right thing for that person at that time. The discussion was entitled 'Women who flirt 'blamed' for rape' Well, I for one think if flirting is an invitation to rape then every woman in the universe would have been raped by now.

Diana - 17/07/2006 03:12

Ann, I have no intentions of freeing four men over a bloody mini-skirt that Sophie would have been wearing! I wouldn't put those men in prison either. I'd have them castrated instead and leave them walk free again. It would be wonderful to see their minds tormented knowing that they couldn't rape anymore. If this was done in this country I bet rape would plummet. I have raised all my daughters the very best way that I can possibly do. They know every thing there is to know because I am a very open person with regards to this subject. I have no problems getting contraception for them if that is really what they want to do. I have warned them of all the dangers of casual sex and all about perverts that could be out there. They can ask me any question they like and they know that. But some girls are naturally promiscouos and no matter what they know it wouldn't be enough. This of course doesn't mean that any man can rape them of course but the could leave themselves open. While rape exists you will always have to take precautions no matter what and for me, belt-like mini-skirts with no underwear underneath is out of the question. There is a 14 year old girl around our neighbourhood at the moment who keeps texting two particular young fellows. None of them want her but she won't leave them alone. To top it all her mother helps her with the texting or rings them up and talks to them for the daughter. What could you do with the likes of these people? I can see that daughter getting into some kind of trouble in the future whether it is a pregnancy or attracting the wrong person. There are some women out there who do stupid things as well. I'm sure that Sophie wasn't one of them at all but some women can upset the appletart big time with regards to rape cases because of the queer actions that they take themselves.

Mary - 17/07/2006 09:34

Diane, where exactly was I casting unsubstantiated slurs on your professional views on life? If a women, of anyone says no, how on earth could anyone pick it up to mean yes? It is the precise opposite. I googled "Why women mean yes when they actually say no" and no such book exists. A womans personality has as little to do with her being raped as her clothing. Are you now trying to imply tha there is some form of rape attrating personaily?

Mary - 17/07/2006 12:47

Diane, you still don' get it do you? Rape is POWER crime. By castrating the offenders, how do you know you won't turn them into murderers instead? Girls are no more "NATURALLY PROMISCUOUS" that boys. Again you are attempting to make some women out to be slaves to sexual urges. The 14 year old girl's mother should have more sense but this does not give either the two fellows or anyone else the right to rape her.

Diana - 17/07/2006 13:49

Mary, I might not have the exact title of that book right but it certainly does exist. I remember clearly looking at it in Easons and thought the title was unusual but I never bought it or read it. I get it loud and clear Mary. It's you who don't get me. I am not for rape of any kind nor have I ever. I have stated this as clear as I could all the time. There are girls out there who have high sexual urges and who would sleep with ANY man. If you don't know that then you are not living in the real world. Of course the 14 year olds mother should have more sense but what is giving her the lack of sense. Why is she encouraging her daughter and encouraging the young fellows? Is she secretly promiscuous herself?

louthchick - 18/07/2006 15:46

So Diana, In essence What you are saying is, that if a girl dresses in short skirts or acts a certain way she is asking to be Raped?? Or am I reading your last few posts wrong??????

louthchick - 18/07/2006 16:50

'There are girls out there who have high sexual urges and who would sleep with ANY man. If you don't know that then you are not living in the real world.' Yes And there are many MEN who are the same!!!!! As Mary posted on the 17th, Girls are no more "NATURALLY PROMISCUOUS" that boys. Again you are attempting to make some women out to be slaves to sexual urges.... Rape, Diana IS a power crime, the rapist gets a thrill of overpowering their Victim. That is the big thrill for them... Regardless of the victim being 'promiscuous'.

Mary - 18/07/2006 16:50

I don't know abot you Diane, but every woman I know has strong sexual urges. This does not make them all promiscuous as you well know

Ann - 18/07/2006 18:40

Diane, I understand your picture of the girl with the belt, no underwear etc etc. We have all seen girls 'inappropriately dressed' but even in the case you mentioned of the girl in your neighbourhood texting the 2 lads. They are obviously not 'turned on' by her in the slightest, no matter what she wears & they have the cop on to ignore her (& probably laugh at her too). Poor girl I say with a Mother like that. But c'est la vie. From my experience, teenage girls are not 'higly sexed' creatures & if they are promiscuous then its usually because they have insecurity issues, self image issues & want to feel 'loved' by someone of the opposite sex. They are young & confuse feelings of infatuation with real love. Didn't we all? No sin in that though as we learn in time about ourselves & about what we want in relationships. Again, that is another topic. This topic is about 'Women who flirt, blamed for rape' and again, as previously posted by many, rape is a crime. The 4 boys in Sophies case were obviously weak, bully boys as they used their 'numbers' to intimidate her. ps. Castration is not legal so no point talking about that. The point is, that they committed a crime on Sophie & nobody is to blame EXCEPT those 4 boys (oh, & their parents too, in my book!)

Diana - 19/07/2006 00:35

If women are not supposed to be anymore naturally promiscous then men then you must agree then that there has to be some women who have more of a drive than other women. After all men have it don't they? Outside this natural norm we have rape. Some people would say then that women are also outside of this norm. Are women capable of rape or do they just show it in a different way? Some women talk and act far more sexily than other women. Other women have indeed low sex drives as do some men. The big difference with rape is that men have the upper hand with their strength which puts women at a huge disadvantage. What if it was the other way around though? That women had the upper strength on men. While women haven't got the strength of men they have to be careful of them. That's all there is to it. Telling them that they can do, dress and act as they like is the worst advice I have ever seen. That is living in a dream world and while this attitude stays there many women will be raped unnessessarily.

Mary - 19/07/2006 15:36

Hang on, are you saying that a womans high sex drive is responsible for rape? That is really twisted.

Diana - 19/07/2006 16:13

Ann, I fully agree with what you are saying. That was a good point about women feeling insecure or infactuated and we did indeed all go through those stages ourselves. In the case of rape this must be an insecurity of some kind within the male himself or an agressiveness that he cannot control. If men cannot control their agressiveness them women have to watch out for themselves. We have to be able to see who this male is even though it is very hard to notice it. Sometimes it is too late before a woman sees this. I never saw it in one of the men I dated until he literally bashed my face in. That was some eye-opener for me and it made me very wary for a long time. Being followed home by a known sex offender is also a very frightening thing. In that case I went up and challenged him and he went away but I put myself in a precarious situation doing this. Then there are all the married men that you have to try and beat off. Like, what's wrong with them buggers? Haven't they enough on their plates without having to stalk young girls? I'v met the lot of them and boy I don't like what I see at all. I must have been carrying something though to attract them. That's the conclusion that I am coming to.

louthchick - 19/07/2006 19:57

To Mary Posted: 19/07/2006 15:36 Mary Diana is saying a lot of things and a lot of the comments are really ridiculous... Some of Your comments really Diana are shocking.. You DO seem to put the blame on women in general, asking why we go with these men and why didn't we see what they were like??????

Diana - 20/07/2006 01:53

Mary, Where are you getting that from??? What I am saying is that women who have high sex drives could attract the wrong type of people through their actions. This puts them at a higher risk of rape and while we all agree that rape should never be happening, it does and that is a fact of life in our time. If one person stands at the side of a road waiting for the traffic to pass and another steps out in front of the traffic anyway, who is more at risk?

Shelly - 20/07/2006 10:36

Diane throughout this whole discussion you have been giving out about what girls should and shouldn\'t do or wear but in fact you have done absolutley everything you are telling other people NOT to do. I think you are describing yourself here from what i\'ve read anyway and I\'ve read the lot but you have to understand Diane not everyone is like you everybody is different and have there own personalities your so hung up on dress sense and the way young girls act and you have done the lot I think your the one that regrets everything that you\'ve done and every way you acted maybe you think all of the horrible things that happened to wouldn\'t have happened if you didn\'t act in a certain way well Diane believe me they would because it wasn\'t you that did the horrible things it was the MEN that attacked YOU.

louthchick - 20/07/2006 18:01

Diana, You need a serious wake up call.. You are the one here who needs to Get a grip on reality. I strongly suggest you do some research on Rape & Rapists & why they rape because your own 'conclusions' are totally incorrect.

Diana - 21/07/2006 02:38

Ah, come on Louthchick! You're giving me no chance at all in this conversation. Okey, I might not have had the greatest experiences in life but they have taught me many things. At the very least I could say that I have come to recognise those men that could be dangerous and while it may appear that I have become nervous and suspicious of them I still managed to survive. At the moment I am living in what I would consider one of the safest places to live on earth. The best thing of all that I did was to leave the hometown that I grew up in. In between I lived in a place that was okey but didn't feel very safe. But where I am now I could honestly say that there are nothing but gentlemen. Maybe that is where some of you are already living in at the moment. A place where there are indeed these gentlemen and therefore you cannot possible see the more frightening man. But my hometown is not a place that I would recommend to any woman because you will feel afraid there no matter what. Only the other day a woman was raped and murdered and there has been two suicides within a fortnight. In fact suicide is a huge thing down there and yet where I am living at the moment there has only been one in the last 20 years. It depends on the crowd of people that you are dealing with.

Shelly - 21/07/2006 13:50

Diane it doesn't matter where your living nowadays there is suicides, drugs rapists everywhere and the only way to prevent rapists from raping is to lock them up for LIFE and i mean LIFE until the day they die let them rape each other their not given long enough sentences, once a rapist always a rapist why should they be let live a life in peace among normal people. Thats whats wrong with our system I read somewhere the other day a man first raped in 1964 and he was convicted he got 10 years when he got out he done it again and got 5 years out again raped again this time the girl was 16 and because he said it was consenual he got off with this now come on he's being raping girls since 1964 and our system let him. Diane you have to understand absolutley nothing is going to stop a man raping somebody the only thing that might help you prevent it is self defence if you can fight him back or use something anything to get him off but the majority of the time the man is just to powerful and thats a fact.

louthchick - 21/07/2006 14:03

Diana You have had all the chances in the world to 'redeem' yourself.... Regardless of whether you live in a 'nice neighbourhood' or not is totally irrelivant Diana!!! Come on, Rapists exist everywhere some also are professional men!!! Your explanattion on your previous post is ridiculous.. Do you think Rapists, murderers and suicide victims only exist in bad/dangerous or not so good towns or cities??? Thats what it certainly sounds like and it's the most ridiculous statement ever...

Diana - 21/07/2006 15:49

Louthchick, I think that they are inclined to congreagate in cities and towns because they have far more access to people. That was certainly my experience in the town that I was living in. There were all types of them including the professional. On one occasion in this town I was followed home by three different types! Why did they pick me Louthchick? What kind of vibes was I giving off when I lived in that town? There were plenty of other women that they could have picked and I know many women that never had this type of experience. It wasn't fair then that they were inclined to pick me. I was a very respectable person but I couldn't do anything right to keep them away. I was like a magnet but why was I like a magnet? I had some way of attracting them and I want to know what it was.

louthchick - 21/07/2006 19:18

Whether you are 'respectable' or not Diana is irrelivant. Facts about Rape: *Rape is NOT about sexual gratification. *Rape is a crime of violence, anger, and power. It is NOT motivated by sexual desire. *Rape is NOT about the perpetrator's losing control over his sexual urges--a rapist chooses to rape and it is always within his control NOT to rape. *Rapists are not easily identifiable--they can be anyone--there are no racial, economic, religious, or class distinctions among rapists Diana the main fact is RAPE IS NEVER THE VICTIM'S FAULT. Nobody, under any circumstances, has the right to violate the body and mind of another person against their will. You are asking the question ALL victims ask, WHY ME..............

Ann - 21/07/2006 23:12

Diane, you can only ask yourself that question re. what attracted them to you. I have lived in numerous parts of both the U.K. & Ireland, cities, towns & villages, over the years & never had problems like you describe. Of course, there are weirdos out there, everywhere, but they are not a majority, regardless of what you think. The discussion about men being overly sexed is a bit rich I think. Men are more easily aroused, sure, but the majority are not creatures that are unable to control themselves. Likewise women who appear to be over sexed are usually no more sexually aware than the rest of us but again are operating on their insecurities/lack of self esteem & their need to be found attractive. Its usually not the act of sex that interests them as much as the need to be found attractive. Regarding the scenario you painted about being followed home by 3 weirdos. Were you dressed inappropriately? Did you talk to any of these guys at any stage of that night? How did you come to their attention in the first place? Were you just walking home & 3 complete strangers simultaneously started following you. If the last is the answer then I hope you rang the Gardai & in the interest of public safety you should tell us the town so we can all avoid it.

Mary - 24/07/2006 09:03

Diana, the fact that yuou were followed home was NOT your fault. It could have happened to me, Louthchick, the girl next door or anyone else.

Diana - 25/07/2006 03:06

What do you mean that rape is not for sexual gratification? What else could it be? He\'s not going to stand there talking to me! He wants to have sex with me whether I feebly say no or just force me anyway. Regarding the three weirdos that followed me home that night one would you believe was a medic who was after me for a long time but pestered me that night. He was a married man and I told him to go home to his wife. But he kept pleading for ages to come into his car and eventually went away when he realised that I was serious. That didn\'t stop him on other occasions though from trying again. The second weirdo stopped me and asked me for a light and then proceeded to put his hand over his trousers and ask me to do him a favor. I told him that I would burn it off if he liked and he buzzed off muttering under his breath. I was about a mile from home when my third weirdo struck. Slinking and hiding in doorways hoping that I wouldn\'t see him. It was my womanly intuition that made me turn around and spot him ducking under a wall. I went back and challenged him and told him that my huge, long-haired gorilla type brother was on the way. He knew my brother and he ran away quickly. I probably drew the pestering medic on myself by being friendly to him in my job. I enjoyed men and I was working with 300 of them so I used to flirt a lot with them. This fellow obviously got the impression that I fancied him. I reckon the way I dressed had something to do with things as well. In those days I used to wear jeans and had a shirt tied up to my waist showing off my stomach but not many women did this at the time. (No, I\'m not that ancient!) I even got looks from women over this so I used to keep it up just to annoy them even more. So I reckon it was my clothes.

Mary - 25/07/2006 17:15

Diane, again - rape is POWER crime.

finn - 25/07/2006 21:47

Diana,a rapest is always a rapest no matter what you wear.if his going to rape he is going to it any way,i know a 56 year old women who got raped and she was asleep in her bed when he atacked.

Diana - 26/07/2006 00:42

How is it a power crime, Mary? Why does a man want power over me? I have asked many men why do other men rape and none of them seem to know the reason why. They just cannot see themselves doing it. Yet, I can certainly see it when it comes to sexual gratification. Maybe they just didn't get it for ages and there is a build-up inside out of sheer frustration. That is the only picture of rape that I can see.

Anonymous - 26/07/2006 09:37

Oh my god, oh my god I cannot believe that I am reading this. Diana - you think men rape because they 'didn't get it for ages'. There are millions of people out there, men and women who haven't had sex in ages, why aren't they raping people. I am actually appalled that there are people that think the way you do. I hope if you have daughters or female friends who ever fnd themselves a victim, that they don't come to you for help.

Mary - 26/07/2006 09:46

A rapist wants power over you or any women because they are sick, twisted, perverted individuals. Of course a normal man could not see himself doing it. Rape does not happen becuase the rapist "just didn't get it for ages and there is a "build-up" (whatever that is supposed to mean) inside". There are planty of men and indeed women who "didn't get it for ages" and that oes not lead them to rape. There are other ways of relieving sexual frustration as we all well know.

Diana - 26/07/2006 13:23

Sorry for sounding so ignorant but that is certainly the picture that I always presumed. If it is a power trip that you claim it is then the only pictures of power that I can see is either a hatred power for women or an animal power. Either way it is mixed with sexual gratification because this is the act that they either carry out or attempt to carry out. What exactly is a sick, perverted mind? Is it a mentally ill mind? If it is then they can't really help themselves can they? The build-up that I was referring to is a build-up of some kind of sexual rage that they somehow cannot control. Maybe there is some kind of an overactive hormone here somewhere which normal men don't have.

Mary - 26/07/2006 16:45

Yes, I could describe it as hatred power, I think. Hatred in humiliating and degrading their victim while having power over them. A sick perverted mind is the mind of a rapist (or murderer or abuser of children) but they are still responsible for her actions. There is no "over-active hormone", that contributes to the build up of sexual rage, that I know of. As I mentioned, sexual tension can be relieved in other ways. Besides, I could not imagine that any normal man would get any kind of sexual satisfaction knowing their victim was unwilling, struggling and hurt.

Diana - 26/07/2006 22:40

I could understand the hatred of a man towards a woman that he knows but I couldn't make sense of how a rapist turns on someone that he doesn't know. How could he be coming from hatred with a stranger? To me he would then have such a need for sex that he just has to have it no matter what. Maybe it is our reaction towards them then that makes them want to hurt us. I protested weakly alright at the time but I didn't put up a struggle. To be honest something told me not to struggle anyway but that might have just been in his particular case. If I had struggled, I figured that I could have made him angry and would have got beaten up like I did before. I couldn't bear to get beaten up and allowing him to have sex was the better of the two evils if you know what I mean. I think all women are terrified of being beaten and men hurt us far more physically then they realise when they do this. To me then there is a mixture of two major aspects. One is anger and the other is a sexual urge. Whether that comes under the title of power I am not so sure. A lack of self-control might be a better title.

Mary - 27/07/2006 10:50

As I said before it is a power crime - perhaps relatd to misogyny. Misogynists hate ALL women. There is NO such thing as "such a need for sex that he (or she) just has to have it no matter what". That is pathological. Sex while normnal and natural is not like food, heat or water. You or your reaction is not responsible for someone wanting to hurt you. Women (and perhaps men) who are beaten by their partners use this tactic to rationalise as well. If only I wasn't this way or that way, he or she would not have hit me but that does not excuse violence, be it the violence of rape or other physical violence. Of course no woman wants to be beaten but again this does not excuse the individual who commited rape nor does any perceived lack of self control. You might call it lack of self control when have a bar of chocolate. But if I rob the chocolate factory, that is theft. As I said there are other ways of relivign sexual tenson and these do not include rape.

Pattie - 27/07/2006 15:01

HI, just tried to read all the above postings and trying to take it all in. It is a known fact that rape is not about the sexual gratification it is about power I think louth chick has said this already. As previously mentioned many accross our society have been raped this is both women, children and men. I don't think I saw one posting around men who are raped? I am 34 yr old woman, happily married and I carry weight. As a result I try to dress the way my figure allows however as a woman I do have the choice to dress in a sexy manner if I so wish however I don't think I or my husband would consider that this is an invitation for me to be raped. Also, please keep in mind that castration would not work as other items can be used which backs up the argument of it being even more than a sexual issue. I understand some studies have ben completed on this area. It is also known that women rape however it is not as easily identifable and it is only now that individuals are coming forward on this subject. There is no point continuing to argue about what women and men should or should not dress in. How we dress and how man sexual partners we have or how ofent we like to have sex should not come into it. At the end of the day we are talking about a small group of individuals who affect a very large group of people and as a result we should all be taking responsibility for both ourselves and others. It starts with our children and continues from there. At the end of the day it is about choice and ensuring we all make the right choices for our own personal security.

Ann - 28/07/2006 00:46

I agree totally with you Pattie. We, as individuals are only responsible for our selves and therefore can only be expected to take responsibiliy for ourselves. There are safe practices, and education and starting with them, we are obliged as parents to educate our children to be able, one day, to take responsibility for their own actions. If we put ourselves at risk then we can only take responsibility for what occurs. That does not excuse the types of rapists who as a group, over power a woman and take advantage of her. The end result is to know ourselves well enough through education and self awareness not to put ourselves into situations that we cannot control.

Diana - 28/07/2006 17:33

The last two posts sounded like someone sitting on an armchair making assumptions about life. We are all responisble for what we do in life and the choices that we make you say. And we must teach our children ect. ect. You give me the impression that life is so simple and that problems can be solved easily with a bit of preaching. You also give me the impression that you haven't lived at all only in some kind of a cosy world that only goes so far. In some ways you sound as though you were wrapped in cotton wool all your lives and that your sight is very limited because of this. The only argument that I can see in this discussion after all these posts is that some of you think that you can still dress the way you like even with rape, beatings and murder all around you. You don't seem to see anything else. I'v tried to ruffle you up a bit but I'm beginning to think that it is a waste of time. Why not get out there and get stuck in? Why not seek to understand a bit better? Come on. You are driving me around the twist!

didi - 29/07/2006 13:10

I met that guy in Dublin and really liked him, but realised that he spiked my drink, because he pointed out which glass is mine and which one is his, and also repeated a few times Come on, have a drink...I am not stupid. I run away, saying I go to the loo, without him even realising I am gone, only after like ten minutes, when I was already in a taxi on my way home. I called him later on, asking him to go out for a drink during the day, because I needed to talk to him, but he never called back. What an asshole. Spiking drinks in Dublin happens...Later on I called my friend who is gardie, gave him all the information about that guy, just in case he tries to do this again.

Ann - 02/08/2006 03:13

Didi, Well done. There you go Diane, Didi took responsibility for herself. She got suspicious and she made her escape so thereby avoided anything worse happening. That was a very responsible thing to do and she also followed it up by reporting it to the Gardai. Well done Didi.

Diana - 02/08/2006 18:51

Ann, trying telling that to the person who got raped by four guys and try telling the police on your boss. Try also telling it about a person who has a big gang behind them and who could get you some night when you were on your own. There are many different incidences when reporting is not the way and in some cases could be fatal.

Ann - 05/08/2006 20:20

Yes Diana, I agree. I have stuck to that line all along. What one person chooses to do is not neccessarily what another can deal with after an ordeal like Sophie suffered. She did what was right for her & is trying to deal with it all now in the best way for her. The previous poster (sorry I've forgotten her name) was aware of something being wrong & dealt with it in the right & correct way for her. You implied in your earlier postings that young women were going around in some sort of naivety, wrong clothes etc etc & not aware of the fact that there are some nutters out there. They're not!

Brian(IOZ50038) - 06/08/2006 16:04

Ok, to admit, I've only read about half way down, and would like to make a comment prior to having read all of the comments. Nevertheless, I do feel the pain that anonymous has gone through, however, many points have been shed by both sides about men's sexual drive/ambition etc. and a woman's right to wear whatever she wants. One person even went so far as to say that women should dress like the Arab women in the Middle East and many people ranted and raved...blah blah blah... Which brings me to this point... with all due respect, I understand a woman’s right to dress however she wants, but I think I can understand where Diana's coming from in that a woman runs the "risk" of getting raped if she wears scantily clad clothing - this is far from the ideal that they "deserve" to be raped for wearing scantily clad clothes. It’s like this... I have the “right” to walk in the crosswalk when I cross the street, but I run the “risk” of getting hit by a car if I'm not careful and wasn't paying attention to the oncoming car or simply walked out into a busy road expecting to not get hit because of my rights as a pedestrian. Though I have the right to do it, doesn't necessarily mean that it is in my best interest to use the crosswalk at that moment. There are risks associated with every action we undertake. As my mom used to tell me when I was a wee little lad is “you may be well within your right, buy you can also be ‘dead’ right.” My wife brings up another analogy and comparison of two cars and begs the question of which car is likely to be stolen… a nice red sports car that is unlocked with the keys inside in the middle of the city, or a modest vehicle that’s been locked up and in the light? Without question, the red sports car. Point is… a woman who is well within her right to dress scantily clad is walking about the streets and partying is much more “likely” to be raped than someone who dresses much more modestly and is not likely to be found in the environment where it is likely to happen. This does not mean that I endorse the vial action of a rape, in fact, I comdemn it, but my point is that a woman can run the "risk" for using her "right" to wear, act or do whatever she pleases. She must, especially in this day and age, use a healthy dose of discretion when entering an unknown or known environment – particularly places prone to attacks. That would be like trying to cross the highway on a green light or parking your nice car in a dark area, unlocked with the keys still inside. I do think it’s despicable that a man would do anything so undeserving - or woman for that matter. But the fact of the matter is, with pornography out there, a woman is more at risk for such an activity because the minds of "some" men are perverted, and would do anything to get that fix - as if it were a drug. Please tell me there is no wisdom in this.

Brian - 08/08/2006 06:45

I would also like to point out the basic psychology behind these tragic events… Many of you mentioned that it has more to do about power than gratification on the part of the person committing the act. I strongly disagree. Do you think that druggies steal because they want to steal the power from their victim? I say ney. They stole something because they “wanted” something from the victim – known or unknown. Do you think that for a moment that when a person is mugged, it is for power over their victim? No. It’s because they wanted something their victims had. In fact, they could care less about their victim. Unfortunately, you girls have something that some irrational, perverted men want – the ability to get them off. By prancing around thinking everything is ok, and “it wouldn’t happen to me” and “I should be able to do whatever I want, and wear whatever I feel like wearing” - is not wise thinking. You guys have no idea how much power you have over us men – especially when you’re showing skin and looking incredibly sexy. It drives us men wild! And if we’re not thinking rationally, some men tend to act out their aggression. The lack of rational comes from many different sources: Drugs, Alcohol, and Pornography just to name a few. These sources inhibit people’s minds to think rationally and diminish civility. The coined phrase “Drink Responsible” is an oxy-moron. How can you drink and still think responsibly? Sure, it’s talking about establishing a designated driver… blah blah blah, but alcohol is know to be a gateway drug and is heavily associated with sexual activities – especially at parties. I don’t know if you guys know what pornography does to both men and women – if not, I do know for at least for men. Did you know that they are calling pornography the next millennial drug? When a person views pornography, their bodies produce a chemical similar to some stimulant drugs that not only arouse, but create a euphoric feeling. That chemical, which by the way is NOT NATURALLY PRODUCED – even during normal healthy sex, is addictive. When the content they watch becomes less euphoric, they move onto the next stage of pornography. When that no longer produces the desired effects, they move onto the next stage, and the next… each becoming more graphic and violent than the last - until they act out their desires physically. Don’t be around those men who view that kind of material. Besides, is that the type of man you want to be the father of your children? If so, I guarantee you that you will be in a world of heartache in the coming future – if you desire a relationship with him. Therefore, when a person is drunk, high, or fixated on sex, watch out! The person who is under these influences is no longer considered civil by any means (nor are they themselves) and a law made out of words is not going to stop them – especially when their drive is bigger than their rational. You have to remember that the people committing these acts are people without character, morals or ethics – either at the time, or in general. A civilized society can only function properly if the people behave with character and agree to the laws to which have been written – hence we have laws enacted in case people go beyond ethical behavior. (I know that there is more to the debate between morals, ethics and law – but beside that now, I’m making a case…) Therefore, you may want to consider the “environment” you’re in, and what people your surrounding yourself with. Yes I’m sure that drinking can be a lot of fun – or even getting high with your friends, but what types of choices are you making? Are they good ones or not so good. It’s really that simple. My advice, if you still want to have a good time, is to go in numbers. And if your gut says to get out of there, you’d better follow your gut. But better advice is to stay away from the sources where people’s judgment is impaired and find another way to have fun without the intoxication. As far as placing blame on the women who flirt and deserve to be raped…not in a million years. No one “deserves” to be a victim of anything. I spit on the man who would do such a thing.

Mary - 08/08/2006 11:54

"When a person views pornography, their bodies produce a chemical similar to some stimulant drugs that not only arouse, but create a euphoric feeling". Do you have any scientific evidence for this? Lets face it, there are plenty of couples, men and women out there who view pronography, are not addicted to it. still have nornal healthy sex lives and this does not turn them into rapists. You also sate" each becoming more graphic and violent than the last". I think that there you are making the mistake of dangerously blurring the border between pornography and snuff (violence). Pornography and snuff movies are not the same thing. Plenty of couples watch pornagraphy and have fantasies but would never watch snuff movies. Incidenatally there are plenty of people who drink responsibly. It's about knowing your limits and knowing when to stop. Also, just becuase a women dates a man or evne has a one-night stand with him does not mean she wants him to be the father of any children she should choose to have.

Ann - 08/08/2006 18:39

Brian, you state, quote Point is… a woman who is well within her right to dress scantily clad is walking about the streets and partying is much more “likely” to be raped than someone who dresses much more modestly and is not likely to be found in the environment where it is likely to happen. Unquote Where do you get this idea from? Look back over the cases of the missing girls in the past 10 years or most of the rape victims, none of them were scantily dressed. Going by that logic there should be a huge rise in rape cases in summer when the weather is warm & females are parading around beaches in bikini's! You do a great dis-service to all men. Virtually everyone has fantasies. They are called 'fantasies' simply because they are never acted out, if they were, they would no longer be fantasies, would they? Nothing wrong with fantasies, Brian, as Mary has already stated. Comparing the act of rape to taking drugs, stealing cars, etc etc is completely off the point. You are talking about completely different crimes. If you believe that the way women dress influences whether a man rapes or not, then I would consider you are completely deluded. You might be a man but we all have men in our lives and I for one do not know a man who would agree with you, fortunately. In this case, 4 men assaulted 1 girl. That is not just about rape, but it is also about over powering a victim. What kick did they get out of that especially as the girl herself said she was not scantily dressed.

Brian - 09/08/2006 00:59

I agree. I’m not an absolutist. Just because someone views pornography does not make them an instant rapist – nor does drinking make you a rapist either. What I am saying is that it can lead up to some very heavy potential problems if not kept in check, and can warp normal or traditional thinking; meaning that people who have a problem with pornography view other people as sex objects instead of the intrinsic value of the individual. That translates into them fulfilling their fantasies instead of loving the person for who they are. If their thinking is impaired, they may act it out – or even use alcohol or drugs to get what they want from their victim. What makes pornography effective is the shock value – it’s that shock value that produces the chemical. When that shock value diminishes, the person moves onto the next stage – which has a higher shock value – which is more graphic and violent. You have to think about the root of the problem in order to understand the cause of the symptom. Rape is a symptom, and I feel that pornography is a root cause of it and alcohol and drugs “can be” the mechanism by which it’s carried out. When you think of it, in order for it to be carried out the seed has to be planted in the mind of the perpetrator. If you want to be blind to the fact that there are people out there who have addictions to sex and sexual exploitations and simply believe that the world is a happy place with no ill thoughts or ill will, that’s your prerogative. I’m just simply bringing to light that there is a problem that exists in today’s society which brings about moral decay, and that you may want to be aware of it. What does that mean? Be on your guard at all times. It doesn’t mean lock up your doors and stay inside. Here is a whole host of articles to support my claims if you wish to look at them. I could go on, but I think this will suffice for now. http://contentwatch.com/learn_center/article_list.php?cat=pornography The one I’m referring to is the first one by Mark B. Kastleman Mark B. Kastleman, (2001) The Drug of the New Millennium-the Science of How Internet Pornography Radically Alters the Human Brain and Body-A Guide for Parents, Spouses, Clergy and Counselors. Granite Pub; 2nd ed edition (2001) http://contentwatch.com/learn_center/article.php/100 First Paragraph: Today, we live with more stress, pain and anxiety than perhaps any other society in the world's history. Viewing Internet porn and/or engaging in cybersex chat, coupled with self-stimulation, cause the brain and body to release drugs back into its own nervous system. No wonder so many are turning to the Internet. Based on its ability to produce self-medication, mask pain, escape reality and provide the means to achieve one of the body's most powerful peak experiences, Internet pornography has been placed in direct competition with illicit drugs! Rory Reid, Is pornography addiction real? http://contentwatch.com/learn_center/article.php/101#_ftn10 Then there is a whole host of articles about pornography found in the psychological journal “Sexual Addiction & Compulsivity Vol. 7 (1-2) 2000, 7” just to name a few. I.e., here is a list of some of the issues they bring up within that journal. Cybersex Users, Abusers, and Compulsives: New Findings and Implications. By: Cooper, Al; Delmonico, David L.; Burg, Ron. Sexual Addiction & Compulsivity, Mar2000, Vol. 7 Issue 1/2, p5-29, 25p; (AN 6057537) Abstract: Literature regarding sexual use of the Internet has primarily focused on anecdotal data of clinical cases. This study empirically examines the characteristics and usage patterns of individuals who use the Internet for sexual purposes. The Kalichman Sexual Compulsivity Scale was the primary tool used to divide the sample (n = 9,265) into four groups: nonsexually compulsive (n = 7,738), moderately sexually compulsive (n = 1,007), sexually compulsive (n = 424), and cybersex compulsive (n = 96); 17% of the entire sample scored in the problematic range for sexual compulsivity. Data analysis of the four groups indicated statistically significant differences on descriptive characteristics such as gender, sexual orientation, relationship status and occupation. In addition, patterns of use differed across groups including the primary method of pursuing sexual materials, primary location of accessing sexual material, and the extent to which cybersex has interfered with a respondent's life. This study is one of the few quantitative examinations of the patterns of problematic and compulsive use of the Internet for sexual purposes. Implications and suggestions for research, public education, and professional trainings are presented. [ABSTRACT FROM AUTHOR] Effects of Cybersex Addiction on the Family: Results of a Survey. By: Schneider, Jennifer P.. Sexual Addiction & Compulsivity, Mar2000, Vol. 7 Issue 1/2, p31-58, 28p; (AN 6057548) Abstract: adverse consequences of their partner's cybersex involvement. In 60.6% of cases the sexual activities were limited to cybersex and did not include offline sex. Although not specifically asked about this, 31% of partners volunteered that the cybersex activities were a continuation of preexisting compulsive sexual behaviors. Open-ended questions yielded the following conclusions: 1. In response to learning about their partner's online sexual activities, the survey respondents felt hurt, betrayal, rejection, abandonment, devastation, loneliness, shame, isolation, humiliation, jealousy, and anger, as well as loss of self-esteem. Being lied to repeatedly was a major cause of distress. 2. Cybersex addiction was a major contributing factor to separation and divorce of couples in this survey: 22.3% of the respondents were separated or divorced, and several others were seriously contemplating leaving. 3. Among 68% of the couples one or both had lost interest in relational sex: 52.1% of addicts bad decreased interest in sex with their spouse, as did 34% of partners. Some couples bad had no relational sex in months or years. 4. Partners compared themselves unfavorably with the online women (or men) and pictures, and felt hopeless about being able to compete with them. 5. Partners overwhelmingly felt that cyberaffairs were as emotionally painful to them as live or offline affairs, and many believed that virtual affairs were just as much adultery or "cheating" as live affairs. 6. Adverse effects on the children included (a) exposure to cyberporn and to objectification of women, (b) involvement in parental conflicts, (c) lack of attention because of one parent's involvement with the computer and the other parent's preoccupation with the cybersex addict, (d) breakup of the marriage. 7. In response to their spouses' cybersex addiction, partners went through a sequence of prerecovery... [ABSTRACT FROM AUTHOR] Online Infidelity: A New Dimension in Couple Relationships with Implications for Evaluation and Treatment. By: Young, Kimberly S.; Griffin-Shelley, Eric; Cooper, Al; O'Mara, James; Buchanan, Jennifer. Sexual Addiction & Compulsivity, Mar2000, Vol. 7 Issue 1/2, p59-74, 16p; (AN 6057571) Abstract: Prior research has examined how Internet addiction can impact couple relationships. This article investigates how with the advent of the Internet a new dimension has been created for romantic and sexual relationships. Reports are suggesting that electronic communication can lead to marital discord, separation, and possible divorce. The ACE model (Anonymity, Convenience, Escape), which was hypothesized as a driving force behind cybersexual addiction, provides a framework to explain the underlying cyber-cultural dynamics that can increase the risk of virtual adultery. Warning signs of a cyberaffair are outlined to alert clients and therapists to this new aspect of couple relationships. Clinicians working in the aftermath of an online romantic and/or sexual encounter need to improve a couple's communication and cohesion and to assess for more severe problems such as sexual addiction. Specific interventions focus on strategies for rebuilding trust, ways to improve marital communication, educating couples on whether these behaviors indicate an underlying addictive process, and how to restore trust and commitment after a cyberaffair. [ABSTRACT FROM AUTHOR] Children, Teens, and Sex on the Internet. By: Freeman-Longo, Robert E.. Sexual Addiction & Compulsivity, Mar2000, Vol. 7 Issue 1/2, p75-90, 16p; (AN 6057575) Online Sexual Addiction and Compulsivity: Intergrating Web Resources and Behavioral Telehealth in Treatment. By: Putnam, Dana E.; Maheu, Marlene M.. Sexual Addiction & Compulsivity, Mar2000, Vol. 7 Issue 1/2, p91-112, 22p; (AN 6057588) Should Virtual Sex Be Treated Like Other Sex Addictions? By: Orzack, Maressa Hecht; Ross, Carol J.. Sexual Addiction & Compulsivity, Mar2000, Vol. 7 Issue 1/2, p113-125, 13p; (AN 6057595) Compulsive Cybersex: The New Tea Room. By: Schwartz, Mark F.; Southern, Stephen. Sexual Addiction & Compulsivity, Mar2000, Vol. 7 Issue 1/2, p127-144, 18p; (AN 6057602) Virtual Addiction (Book). By: Sealy, John M.. Sexual Addiction & Compulsivity, Mar2000, Vol. 7 Issue 1/2, p145-146, 2p; (AN 6057628) Would you like some more Mary? Or will this suffice? Brian

Diana - 09/08/2006 03:21

Thankfully Brian is able to see that a woman that is scantily dressed could attract the wrong man. Fashion dictates what people wear and I think they should be taken to task for some of the things they produce. Even schools contribute to this problem. In the school that my daughters go to the skirt is bought at a certain length which is usually below the knee. What parents then though must do is get the skirt turned up because that is what every other girl is doing and the school doesn't mind the skirts being so short. Do they want to stand at the end of the stairs and look up under their skirts or something? I cannot understand this at all. If the skirt comes a certain length why don't they insist on keeping the length. You have young girls then growing up being used to mini-skirts up to their a*** whereas if they had to stay in the longer lengths they might not be as brave in the mini-skirt. Thankfully this year they are introducing trousers which will certainly ease the situation for the future hopefully. I didn't realise Brian that there was some kind of chemical produced whilst watching pornography. I have watched a bit of this myself but to be honest there is no love involved in it so I quickly got bored with it. Maybe watching this is why many women complain that their men are useless at foreplay. They just head straight for it if you know what I mean. Certainly it is an area that is probably having a huge effect where rape is concerned because pornography gives the impression that women enjoy this when that couldn't be further from the truth. I also think that you made a great point Brian when you said that rape wasn't about power. I don't believe it is either but agree with you in that it is something that they want off us and that is sex. All they want to do is to satisfy themselves out of some sheer want and just have to have it. If anything it would show rapists as actually being powerless because they cannot control themselves. Likewise women feel powerless as well due to the strength of a man. But in both their cases it is powerlessness rather then one having power over the other. Two wrongs never make a right.

Brian - 09/08/2006 12:16

louthchick Posted: 21/07/2006 19:18 Whether you are 'respectable' or not Diana is irrelivant. Facts about Rape: *Rape is NOT about sexual gratification. *Rape is a crime of violence, anger, and power. It is NOT motivated by sexual desire. *Rape is NOT about the perpetrator's losing control over his sexual urges--a rapist chooses to rape and it is always within his control NOT to rape. *Rapists are not easily identifiable--they can be anyone--there are no racial, economic, religious, or class distinctions among rapists Diana the main fact is RAPE IS NEVER THE VICTIM'S FAULT. Nobody, under any circumstances, has the right to violate the body and mind of another person against their will. You are asking the question ALL victims ask, WHY ME.............. Louthchick, to quote your July 21st post, where are you getting your conclusions? What is motivating about power over another person – why would it NOT be the other way around? You sound resolute about this. Do you have personal insight in this? If so, where and how?

Brian(IOZ50038) - 09/08/2006 12:21

"Mary Posted: 26/07/2006 09:46 A rapist wants power over you or any women because they are sick, twisted, perverted individuals. Of course a normal man could not see himself doing it." Mary, to quote your July 26 quote, you mentioned the word "perverted" in the same statement as "power". What is your definition of perversion - I guarantee you, its not power - its more closely associated with sexuality. I challenge you to look it up and try to re-define it using power.

Brian - 09/08/2006 13:46

Mary, You’ve really made me do my research after you challenged me with the last comment, so I figured from here on out, I’d better support my findings with the professionals – so that you don’t think I’m just concocting these things up. So, here is my findings: Ok, 2 out of three articles say that rape is NOT souly about power – in fact, the power myth is concocted by feminists (Baumgardner, 2000) while the other article describes power as one of the four characteristics of rape, yet “The results also suggest that stranger rapes may be less about power and control than about hostility and pseudo-intimacy” (Canter, 2003). The first one depicts the support of power as a “myth” amongst athletic males. But I do think that it’s funny how these same finding support my other thesis about Alcohol Abuse too. What do you think about them apples Mary? Brian Below is my Bibliography: Psychological Research on Rape, Men, Alcohol and Power: Examining Masculinity Norms, Problem Drinking, and Athletic Involvement as Predictors of Sexual Aggression in College Men. By: Locke, Benjamin D.; Mahalik, James R.. Journal of Counseling Psychology, Jul2005, Vol. 52 Issue 3, p279-283, 5p; DOI: 10.1037/0022-0167.52.3.279; (AN 17782969) Male sexual aggression toward women is a serious social problem, particularly on college campuses. In this study, college men's sexually aggressive behavior and rape myth acceptance were examined using conformity to 11 masculine norms and 2 variables previously linked to sexual aggression: problem drinking and athletic involvement. Results indicated that men who use alcohol problematically and conform to specific masculine norms (i.e., having power over women, being a playboy, disdaining gay men, being dominant, being violent, and taking risks) tended to endorse rape myths and report sexually aggressive behavior. Additionally, men who reported higher levels of problematic alcohol use and risk taking were more likely to report sexually aggressive behavior without endorsing rape myths. Implications and recommendations are discussed. [ABSTRACT FROM AUTHOR] “The results also highlight both problematic alcohol use and conformity to specific masculinity norms in relation to sexual aggression. Whereas previous research examined only one set of variables (i.e., problematic alcohol use or masculinity), our results suggest that both are important to consider when identifying factors associated with sexual aggression. For example, it may be that sexual aggression is impulsive behavior facilitated by problematic alcohol use for those men who construct masculinity as being powerful over women, dominant, a playboy, and disdaining gay men, whereas for men who construct masculinity as composed of other norms, problematic alcohol use may not facilitate sexual aggression. Results from the second root of our analysis are more complex to interpret given that they describe college men who do not endorse rape myths but do report sexually aggressive behaviors along with moderate alcohol abuse and risk taking. The second root appears to relate to those who do not believe rape myths but who may become sexually aggressive after drinking or engaging in risky behaviors. Thus, the findings from both roots support the directions of our hypothesis regarding sexually aggressive behavior, but the results from the second root provide a more complex picture of rape myth acceptance in relation to the variables studied. Results did not support our hypothesis that participation in athletics would be predictive of sexual aggression or rape myth acceptance, despite the fact that some studies have found male college athletes are responsible for up to a third of sexual assaults on college campuses (Koss & Dinero, 1988) and others have reported a relationship between athletic involvement and sexual aggression (Koss & Gaines, 1993). This was true even though we used the same measure of athletic involvement as Koss and Gaines (1993). Given the findings about masculinity and problematic alcohol use, prevention efforts might address the most salient masculinity norms identified in this study—in particular Power Over Women, Dominance, Playboy, and Disdain for Homosexuals—along with problematic alcohol use. Cognitive therapy techniques could be used to help men identify and challenge particular masculinity norms (e.g., patriarchal attitudes or devaluing women) that may constrain their own well-being as well as contribute to sexual aggression (see Mahalik, 1999).” Differentiating sex offences: a behaviorally based thematic classification of stranger rapes. By: Canter, David V.; Bennell, Craig; Alison, J.; Reddy., Steve. Behavioral Sciences & the Law, Mar/Apr2003, Vol. 21 Issue 2, p157-174, 18p; (AN 11818902) It is hypothesized that stranger rape victim statements will reveal a scale of violation experienced by the victim, ranging from personal violation, through to physical violation, and finally, at the most extreme level, sexual violation. It is also hypothesized that offences can be differentiated in terms of one of four themes: hostile, controlling, stealing, or involving. To test these hypotheses, crime scene data from 112 rapes were analyzed by the multi-dimensional scaling procedure Smallest Space Analysis. The results provide empirical support for a composite model of rape consisting of four behavioral themes as different expressions of various intensities of violation. The results also suggest that stranger rapes may be less about power and control than about hostility and pseudo-intimacy. The proposed model has implications for the classification of rape, the investigation of sexual crimes, and the treatment of victims. Copyright © 2003 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd. [ABSTRACT FROM AUTHOR] What does rape look like? By: Baumgardner, Jennifer. Nation, 01/03/2000, Vol. 270 Issue 1, p20-23, 3p; (AN 2624136) Notes: Print Journal Held Locally, Call Number AP2.N2, 1989 to present This article focuses on a case where a young woman, who accused a person to have raped her, was arrested by the police within two days for filing a false police report. The detective who had helped King less than forty-eight hours earlier accused her of wasting their time, and King went from being a victim to a criminal. The reason for the University Police Department's about-face is a nearly four-hour Hellenic opus titled "State's Evidence," wherein King and another naked woman lapdance, grind and simulate sex for a couple of dozen clothed fraternity brothers. Yet from a feminist point of view, King's behavior on the tape once the alleged rape began--taunting the men, using sarcasm, acting like a badass--could be construed as strategic. The feminist analysis of rape says that "rape is a crime of power" and, furthermore, that rape almost never looks like a stranger in the bushes attacking a fair maiden.

LifeHandle - 09/08/2006 15:21

There is a psycholoist in Britain named Paul Britton who wrote the book "The Jigsaw Man". Britton was involved in many of the serious police hunts for serial killers and rapists. His views are based on many years scientific study of these people. In the book Britton suggests that women do need to be very careful about what they wear in public and even make sure that when dressing and undressing at home, they make sure that curtains etc are closed. The man is no prude and has no desire to deprive women of any rights. However given what he sees in the course of his work, he is fairly focused on keeping people safe. Women can quite safely behave as they please in front the vast majority of men and although they may get approached, they are very unlikely to get attacked. However the psychopaths (both male and female) are not so socially complient and the "rights" of their intended victim are not high on their lists. They also tend to stalk either people or places. People's "rights" are a social construction used to determine bodily, personal or economic injury after the fact. However they are not a time machine and cannot transport you back to before the event. It is inappropriate to blame women who flirt on rape. However irresspective of the "rights" of women or men who are attacked, those who have to deal with the aftermath advise caution in regard to the risk you expose yourself to.

Mary - 09/08/2006 17:09

Brian, if you take a look at Ireland history, you will see nothing normal about certain traditional thinking. Brian, if you think rape is a symptom of pornography, you are sadly deluded. Rape existed long before pornography or even the TV and print media. What caused it then? Do you really think that every rapist looked at pornography. People look at pronography (as distinct from snuff) not to be shocked but for sexual highs / gratification. Certainly, if it precludes or takes over from normal human relations, this is dysfuncitonal but does not make a person a rapist. As I said before, pornography, however graphic is NOT the same as violence. You are dangerously confusing pornography with snuff - which is violent. Of course the world is not a happy place and people have all manner of addicitons. Again, beign an addict does not make a person a rapist. The key thing to note is "coupled with self-stimulation", - which I assume refers to masturbation, causes the brain and body to release drugs back into its own nervous system - based on its ability to produce self-medication, mask pain, escape reality and provide the means to achieve one of the body's most powerful peak experiences. The same "self-stimulation" could be said to produce self-medication, mask pain, escape reality and provide the means to achieve one of the body's most powerful peak experiences, without involving pronography of any kind - on the internet or elsewhere. The other references you provided were interesting but I noted that they were based on ANECDOTAL evidence and did not make one refeence to rape or the production of the drug you claimed earlier. Just to note howeve,r that pronography objectifies men just as much as it dos women. I do not cliam this is a good thing, simply fact.

Mary - 09/08/2006 17:19

Diane, there is no bioogical impulse where a man "just have to have it". Nor is there any logical reason tha tthey "they cannot control themselves". If wearing less clothes increases our chance oif being raped, how come rape figures aren't a lot higher among naturists and nudists. Brian Posted: 09/08/2006 12:16 - I agree with that post thoroughly. From your research Brian, those men who construct masculinity as being powerful over women, dominant, a playboy, and disdaining gay men already have very characteristics which facilaite sexual aggression without alcohol ever becoming involved.

Brian - 09/08/2006 23:21

No problem Diana, I just don't understand why they demoralize one act, yet support other acts that are closely associated with the problem. Not only that, but you were trying to shed some wisdom from what you have learned - and they gave you no credit. Eh, I don't think I'll ever understand. And yes, I think people can tell the difference between lust (or in love with the act of making love) and love - and thats just one of the reasons why pornography is such a problem. I'm glad to have shed some insite into your arguments. It was my pleasure. I just felt bad that it appeared that no one was understanding what you were trying to say. It saddened me really. Frusterating too I'm sure.

Brian - 11/08/2006 03:23

Mary, As much as I respect your opinion, you just don't get it do you. You paint too much absolutism in your arguments as you try to protect your "right" to dress however you wish or whatever it is you're trying to argue. You try to poke holes in Diane's arguments by finding an exception to the rule but fail to look at the larger picture. The argument that she presents are similar to the professional’s opinions in that there is a large association with those men who have sexual urges and problems who cannot control them – (It’s called sexual addiction in case you’re wondering). It especially exhibits itself when they cannot think rationally and their obsession overrules their rationale. Please remember that these arguments that I presented are not my arguments, but from professional therapists and psychologists. Do you not understand that there will always be exceptions to the rule? When studies are conducted, the researchers look for close associations and look for similar patterns in other cases? You will hardly ever see the statistics say that there is an absolute 100% indication in any study but that there is a high association or link. Nevertheless, I’ll bet a dime to a nickel that almost all rapists have had issues with pornography, and that they acted out their sexual drive on a woman who was vulnerable at the time. Your argument about nudist colonies is irrational at that. You don’t know if there have been any rapes – and if there were not it’s because they were in great numbers – and if anything, the sexual activities would probably be more mutual between the two parties. Again, that is an assumption that I’m making – but you know, reason would have me to believe that could very well be the case. Perhaps there are controls within the colony for that to not happen - then again, perhaps they believe in free love. Again, what the research tells me is that there are a few crazies out there who look absolutely normal on the outside, but have some issues going on up there in that little noggin of theirs. It’s those people who have problems that we need to worry about. I’ll also guarantee you that if given the right situation, they will act it out. A pedophile is a pedophile because he lacks the self control and fanaticizes about the very act - and may perhaps case someone for a while before committing the act. Think about the seed argument. “What you sew, so shall ye reap” they say. Do you think for a moment that a rapist doesn’t think about what he is going to do? Where did he get the idea to do it in the first place? Why do you think he targets the people he targets? Sure he will pick someone he is stronger than, it is to his advantage. But, have you ever thought that there are sexual predators who are NOT rapists – but rather skillfully coy their prey into their homes/cars or whatever only to dump them after they have done the deed? This could take time – perhaps days to months. Who would you guess they target… the very girls that Diana talks about would be a more likely target: really cute girls who fit a certain characteristic. The characteristics vary from perp to perp, but there are some commonalities. What they are exactly, I’m not sure. But, I will guarantee you that showing a little bit of flesh will attract them, and that is the wrong guy a girl should be trying to attract – unless she is looking for “a good time” too – if you know what I mean. Yet, for some odd ball reason, most girls don’t understand that once they have given in to the “guys” needs, they don’t understand why they don’t stick around anymore and give guys a bad name for it. Well duh! What did you expect? A relationship? How ignorant and stupid! If a girl wants to find a “man” as opposed to a guy – it’s got to be based on more than just simply looks based on the flesh. But this is an argumentative tangent that could go on for days. Does this make any sense? I’m not trying to persuade you to believe my philosophy on this subject, but I do what to prod your way of thinking – and perhaps get you to think that perhaps there is more to this issue than what you’ve thought in the past. I think what you’ve believed is more myth than fact and you just don’t really realize it yet. It could be perhaps that you want to hold on to a certain lifestyle that I’ve argued about. What is it really Mary? What are you trying to hold onto that you refuse to let go? Do you like to watch pornography and can’t let that go? Do you like to drink and don’t want to let that go? Do you party and don’t want to let that go? Because I’ve argued about all of these and you can’t seem to look beyond them and look at the close ties that are laden with the issue, but instead have tried to defend them with a weak argument. Like I said, I’m not trying to convince you. You’ve already convinced yourself – or anyone else who sides with you – for that matter. I’m just trying to get you to think about what you’re saying.

Mary - 11/08/2006 11:54

Brian, with respect, I think it is you who don't get it. I do have a right to dress as I wish, as do you but scantily attire does not make for rape, it never has. Sex addicts(It’s called sexual addiction in case you’re wondering) do not make for rapists. There are men (and women) who are addicted to sex (and drugs and alcohol and shopping, coffee, etc but that does not make them rapists. Those studes you quoted do not appear to be backed up by empirical evidence, not do they give any infomration about this drug you claim pronography causes to be released. Rape is a power crime. If Sexual drive was all that as involved, there are other ways of acting it out as we all know. No, we don’t know if there have been any rapes in naturist, nudist enviroments and there have not to my knowledge been any reported. EXACTLY the sexual activities would probably be more mutual between the two parties - REGARDLESS of the fact that the parties were wearing, nothing at all. You are finally understanding the point it seems. There are supposed to be controls within society for that to not happen. free love - what does that have to do with rape? All sexual activities in any civilised society is supposed to be with free consent, anythign else is rape or sexual assualt. There are plenty of crazies out there who look absolutely normal on the outside, but have some issues going on up there in that little noggin of theirs. A pedophile is a pedophile because he od she commits sexual acts with children. Nothing to do with the self control. The rest of us don't need self control to prevent us from commitsing acts like these becuase we woudl never ina million years consider doing something so awful to a child. Not sure what you're talking about with a seed argument. Rapists prey on young people, old people, attractive looking people, unatractive looking people and much of the time the rapist is known to their vistim. What "deed". If a someone lures a person into their car or home and has sex with them without their consent, that IS rape. “a good time”? A GOOD TIME? I sincerely you don't consider rape to be 'a good time', - the implication of it is appalling and if you really believe that then you seriously don't know what you are talking about. further point which you clearly don't 'get' is that NO woman or girl "gives in" in rape. They are FORCED. That is an inherent trait in rape. Nor would any girl or woman would want a rapist to "stick around" for one moment. If someone had forced sex upon you, would you want them to "stick around". How do you imagine any woman would want a relationship with a man who had raped her??? How DARE you call a victim of rape ignorant and stupid. That not only insult them but every woman and says far more about them than you. What on earth do man's looks have to do with whether he's a rapist or not? This is a myth that you are perpetrating. I am quite pleased wiht my lifestyle and have no reason to change it. I'm not holding onto anythign that I should let go, except perhaps a caffeine addiction. I did watch a little of it a good while back - to be honest it did nothing for me except bore me. Perhaps I'm unusual but I get no thrill out of watching complete strangers have sex with one another - perhaps you do. Of course I like a drink, Two million Irish people like a drink and are not going to "let that go" (as you describe it) and have absolutely no reason to do so. Of course I like to go to parties, the whole country likes to go to parties - 21'st, weddings, house warmings, Christmas parties, hen nights etc. Do you know anyone, apart from complete introverts who doesn't like to go to a party. But tell me, why are you trying to make this prsonal to me? Are you perhaps trying to deflect personal focus from yourself?

finn - 11/08/2006 12:21

like i said before ,wearing skirts are not to blame,its the law thats wrong.they only do a few years then there out,the law is not tough enough for them,the law should change not what you wear.they gets away with murder now.there are alot tougher on people with no tax on there car but men that rapes women get 2 to 3 years for it, then lets rome the streets again.

Brian - 11/08/2006 14:43

Ok. Here we go again. On to your first quote: “People look at pornography (as distinct from snuff) not to be shocked but for sexual highs / gratification” – (Mary, August 9). Mary, my point exactly, Thank you for understanding. You are right in that it is for sexual gratification. Do you think that perhaps rape is to? Can you make a connection with that? You are also right that people don’t look at porn to be shocked. Why would anyone look at it because it “shocks” them? People look at porn because of other reasons. To help clarify, and to help you understand what I’ve said - It’s the shock value behind the pictures that create the chemical which is addictive. Do you think people are aware of that when they watch it? Do you think that when a person watches it says, “Dude, I can’t wait to get xyz chemical/drug from watching porn.” If so, oh brother. You don’t get it then. Do you think that “Everyone” gets that chemical when they watch it? I don’t know. Good question. But I’d be willing to bet that just like any other street drug, a first time viewer experiences a similar buzz. Now, wouldn’t you agree that after that first initial high that it takes more to get that seconded high? After a while, a person gets used to the drug in their system. Nevertheless, just like a street drug, some druggies are so addicted that they will go to extremes to get that fix – or even do unheard of things while under the influence. Do you think that this could possibly be a similar case with those who have addictions to sex after long term exposure? It’s simple medical fact that people can create tolerances to drugs after long term exposure and if they’re addicted they increase their intake or find other ways in order to obtain that first high they’ve experienced – yet they are discouraged a bit because they will never reach that same high they experienced the first time they were exposed which only leads them to increase their dose levels. Does this make any sense Mary, or do I have to spell this out too? On your next quote: “Rape existed long before pornography or even the TV and print media.” (Mary, August 9) You are right in that there have been problems with rape even before print – referring to pornography. What do you think it is? I’ll bet you there was prostitution back then too as well as other sources which only exacerbated the problem instead of help to solve the problem. Do you think for a moment that perhaps there were other avenues that triggered rape? Pornography is simply ONE of many root causes – NOT THE ONLY CAUSE. Which again shows that you tend to have a problem of disassociation as apposed to finding solutions to the problem via finding ONE little flaw – or in your case one piece of circumstantial evidence that something doesn’t fit the mold of the other persons argument like the lack of history of pornography in Irish History and nudist colonies. If you still believe that all of this is derived from power – it is not I, but you who is sadly delusional. I’ve backed my arguments with sources – have you? You asked it of me, but I do not see it from you. All I’ve seen is some sort of nit picking argument of some situation that doesn’t quite fit the mold or you argue that “someone who does xyz doesn’t make them abc.” Do you think that its just ONE thing? I say nay – stand back and open your eyes for just a moment and look at the bigger picture. Make some connections will you? Also, do you also recall the rhetorical questions I asked earlier? Do you think you can respond to them? Here it is to refresh your memory: “Do you think that druggies steal because they want to steal the power from their victim? I say ney. They stole something because they “wanted” something from the victim – known or unknown. Do you think that for a moment that when a person is mugged, it is for power over their victim? No. It’s because they wanted something their victims had. In fact, they could care less about their victim.” (Brian, August 8). On to your next quote: “Certainly, if it precludes or takes over from normal human relations, this is dysfunctional but does not make a person a rapist” (Mary, August 9). Again, you assume I’m an absolutist. A does not always lead to B, but there is a close association between pornography, (as well as other sources) and rapists, sexual predators, and sex addicts. Studies and statistics prove that A heavily leads to B – BUT DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT WILL BE THE CASE 100% OF THE TIME! If it did happen 100% of the time then you can say with absolute reasoning that it will happen. Your argument is like this: Just because a rectangle has four sides and corners doesn’t make it a square. You’re right. It could be a parallelogram. But you still can’t read what I’m saying can you – can you. I don’t know how many times I have to say that. If you don’t see the connection – then there is nothing I can say or do that will convince you otherwise. I’ve presented my case – and you won’t wear the glasses or even think about it. Like I’ve said before, I think you’ve already convinced yourself of whatever your reasoning is – but fail to look at the bigger picture. Do you not see the connection yet Mary? Can you not connect the dots? Mary, you also say that the studies were “ANECDOTAL”. Do you know what anecdotal means? “Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis: “There are anecdotal reports of children poisoned by hot dogs roasted over a fire of the [oleander] stems” (C. Claiborne Ray). (Dictionary.com). And you think for one second that your arguments are not? Again, I’ve yet to see a scientific study on your part – as compared to the psychologists I’ve referred you to – who are professionals of their field. Do you think that there is a possibility that they conducted their research scientifically? You’d better bet your bippy they have. All studies are heavily scrutinized by their peers – who are also professionals in their field, before it’s published. Mary, you still haven’t even answered my other question. Here it is to refresh your memory: (Mary, to quote your July 26 quote, you mentioned the word "perverted" in the same statement as "power". What is your definition of perversion - I guarantee you, its not power - it’s more closely associated with sexuality. I challenge you to look it up and try to re-define it using power.) Is this the only theory you’re arguing? If so, that’s a laugh. Please, take the stand and support your findings that’s not as you so eloquently put it “Anecdotal”. I’ve offered you theory upon theory which is backed up WITH scientific studies – to which you try to disprove but have not convinced me otherwise. I beg you to take the stand and come up with your theory and let’s see how it holds up. Until then, I have nothing further to say. Please, take the stand. This is where you participate – and prove yourself. Otherwise, sit down and let someone else try.

Brian - 11/08/2006 14:50

By the way LifeHandle, well said. couldn't have said it better myself. (Refering to your 09/08/2006 post.)

Brian(IOZ50038) - 11/08/2006 18:40

Finn, I can agree with you there. your right. I do think the laws need to change, and I also agree with you that wearing skirts are not to blame. But, as a heed of warning, becareful out there. Thats my only message.

Diana - 12/08/2006 00:41

Mary, What type of power would you be referring to? People are under the impression that there is physical violence always in rape. Yes, there is in some of the cases so I can see that kind of power there. But he still wants to have sex more than anything else and resorts to violence if a woman protests. In some cases he kills her. What about pursausive power which is what I have come across myself? When my boss approached me he would have known that I was scared even when I didn't say no. But he used soothing words to tell me that everything would be okey and it was very hard to deal with this. He also kept blocking me going out the door by just putting his arm across it. He was much bigger and stronger then me at the time and so a woman in this situation would feel genuinely helpless. I don't want to sound as though I was pathetic either at the time but it looked as though I had nowhere to go. I was locked into the building and no-one would be able to hear me. I also saw my job gone down the drain if I didn't do what he wanted. And so it continued for two years. I was to meet him in a certain place, keep my head down in his car, leave him do what he liked and then go home. I was never to participate in the act because he wanted to do everything so I used to just lie there. Many a night I got sick after getting out of his car and many a time I was crying going home on the train. It was one of the biggest traps I found in my life and many a time I wanted to tell someone but I didn't know where to start or how to put it into words. Besides he was a well-respected member of the community with a wife and four children and I was only a young girl at the time. It was I who had to leave eventually to get away. No doubt this type of scene is going on today as we speak and I believe that young girls are as scared to open their mouths as they were when I was growing up.

Ann - 12/08/2006 19:11

Diana, You are talking about 2 totally different scenarios there. The despicable ordeal your boss put you through is a totally different type of empowerment & self gratification (on his part). Did you ever report him? I know of something similar that happened to a friend of mine in her youth but personally I find it reverts back to a terribly low self esteem. Although we are all different & deal with things differently, if that had been me, after the time he did that in the building, that would have been it. You wouldn't have seen me for dust! Knowing the way I was in my youth I would have been unable to have kept it to myself & would have blurted the whole story out to my Mother. Its terrible to think young people don't have anyone to tell when something like that happens to them & then they have to live with the guilt & mess it leaves them feeling.

Diana - 13/08/2006 04:09

There was several things that made me keep my mouth shut Ann. I had a very open relationship with my mother but we were very poor at the time and while the money wasn't super that I was earning it made a huge difference at the time. I would have left my mother down if I left and work was very hard to get at the time. The second thing was that I was a very quiet person at the time (you could say maybe that I had low self-esteem) and I wasn't good for standing up for myself. I steered away from arguments as much as I could because they made me nervous so I could be taken advantage of very easily. Another thing was that his wife was very good towards me and I'd upset her marraige terribly if I opened my mouth. I couldn't bear to see her hurt so I kept quiet and just put up with it. I should have been much stronger at the time Ann. I know that now but I did what I thought was best at the time. A 15 year old's mind is very different than say a 30 year olds. It's very hard to know what way a person gets affected by these things. I'm not even sure myself. It was one of those secret acts that are extrememly hard to report. However looking back on the years following other secrecy acts have repeated themselves in different forms so I guess this one was the beginning. There is no doubt that there is a negative effect from something like this because you hold the pattern of it in your being. For years I wouldn't look at that particular area in my life at all but there comes a point in a person's life that they have to look at it no matter what. You can't allow a pattern to keep repeating itself and have to find a new one. I know earlier on that I was preaching about people reporting these things but it was all because I couldn't do it myself. I was trying to take them out of what I was in so that they wouldn't end up feeling helpless inside themselves. That's the worst part, knowing that you left yourself down.

Brian - 13/08/2006 22:23

Now, I realize that I have come across pretty sharp in the past, and I want to publicly apologize to Mary for having done so. Nevertheless, for those who are sticking to their vows of rape is solely about power, Dr. Craig T. Palmer of Arizona State has these remarks concerning the debate between the “non sex” vs. the “sex” argument of rape. Just to catch you up to speed, this very argument was debated back in the 70’s up to the mid 80’s during the feminist movement. In his paper “Twelve reasons Why Rape is Not Sexually Motivated: A Skeptical Examination,” (1988) he examines one of the core arguments about the “non sex” based philosophy in his eleventh argument, in that “rape is clearly an act of aggression.” Examining this argument, he beautifully illustrates the many misconceptions and flaws of their conclusions with this particular dispute. After viewing his arguments you may see where I’m coming from a little bit more and realize that to remove the fact that sex is a motivation behind the rapes could be detrimental in understanding the fundamental psychology of rapists, and how to approach therapy and advice on prevention. I’ve presented the feministic argument followed by his rebuttal and conclusion. [Argument]: Rape is clearly an act of aggression. McCahil et al. (1979) in their study of 1,401 rape victims show that: 1, a majority of victims (64%) reported being pushed or held during the incident, 2, victims are often slapped (17%), beaten (22%), and/or choked (20%). 3, 84% of victims experienced some kind of nonphysical force during the incident (threat of bodily harm, etc.). (Thornhill & Thornhill, 1983, p. 163) [This is his rebuttal]: To determine the significance of data on rapist violence and victim injury, it is crucial to make the distinction between instrumental force used to accomplish the rape (and possibly to influence the female not to resist and/or not to report the rape), and excessive violence that appears to be and end in itself. This distinction is necessary because only excessive force is a possible indication of violent motivation on the part of the rapist. Harding makes the following claim: “In many cases of rape, in humans, assault seems to be the important factor, not sex…[because]…In most cases the use of force goes beyond that necessary to compel the victim’s compliance with the rapist’s demands” (Harding, 1985, p. 51). However, existing evidence, including that cited by Harding (1985, p. 51), indicates that excessive force is actually only used in a minority of cases. Consistent with the previously cited figures by McCahil, Meyer and Fischman (1979), Chyappell and Singer found only 15 to 20 percent of rape victims required hospital treatment for physical injuries (1977). Katz and Mazur also report the following: “Although most rape victims encountered some form of physical force, few experience severe lasting [physical] injuries” (1979, p. 171; see also Burgess & Holmstrom, 1974’ Schiff, 1971). Amir even found that “In a large number of cases (87%), only temptation and verbal coercion were used to subdue the victim” (Amir, 1975, p. 7). Other evidence also indicates that it is only in a minority of cases that violence and injury are even on of the goals of a rapist. Smithyman found that 88% of his respondents reported using force, but did do “instrumentally” (Smithyman, 1978, p. 68). This is consistent with the fact that only 18% of the rapists in Smithyman’s study reported “hating” the victim. Gebhard et al. (1965) also found that the vast majority of sex offenders used force only when required. Also consistent with the view that force is primarily used only when it is needed is the finding by Geis (1977) that 78% of the rapists in his study wanted the victim to cooperate. Force is also absent in 87% of child sexual abuse cases (Groth, 1979a). Instead of the conclusion reached by Harding (1985), existing evidence appears to be more consistent with the conclusion reached by Hagen: “If violence is what the rapist is after, he’s not very good at it. Certainly he has the victim in a position from which he could do all kinds of physical damage” (Hagen, 1979, p. 87) The importance of the distinction between violence as a means to an end and violence as an end in itself is demonstrated by the Queen’s Bench Foundation’s dismissal of the statements by rapist in which they reported “sex” to be the goal of their behavior: “Others said ‘sex’ but when prodded further, indicated they knew it had to be forcible sex” (Queen’s Bench Foundation, 1978, p. 772; my emphasis). The fact that the rapists where aware that they would probably have to “force compliance” to attain sex is taken by the authors as evidence that the rapists were actually after violence instead of sex. This is in spite of the fact that 71.2% of the rapists stated that they were hoping the victim would comply with their expectations (1978, p. 774), 61.7% said they had not intended to use violence (1978, p. 774), and only 22.7% had ended up inflicting “very severe injury” (1978, p. 778). These figures are particularly significant because the study was restricted to only “overly violent rapists” (1978, p. 768). Contrary to the popular claim that rape is “an act of violence, with sex as the weapon” (Burgess & Holmstrom, 1974, p. 1982), the evidence of physical injury suffered by rape victims is actually more consistent with the view that in most cases rape is an act aimed at attaining sex, with violence being the means to that end. A minority of rapes do involve violence far beyond that needed to accomplish the rape. However, this does not imply that sexual motivation is absent in these assaults. Even the existence of excessive violence cannot account for why the rapist committed rape instead of nonsexual assault. Sexual motivation always appears to be a necessary ingredient for a rape to occur instead of a nonsexual assault. As Rada states: “If aggression were the sole motive it might be more simply satisfied by a physical beating” (Rada, 1978a, p. 22). Of course, it has been suggested that the sexual act itself is aimed at attaining a nonsexual goal for the rapist. It has even been claimed that a sex act is the “best” way to attain a nonsexual goal such as “control” (Rada, 1978a). While such claims may be true, they are inherently uncheckable. They do not refer to the rapist’s behavior, which is identifiably sexual, but to his nonidentifiable thoughts and feelings which he may or may not report truthfully (argument 7). No conceivable behavior on the part of the rapist could disprove any claim about such a “motivation.” Finally, while instances of excessive violence may indicate hostile motivation, this assumption should not be made automatically. Rape victims may be murdered, not because of hostile motivations on the part of the rapist, but because the killing of the victim greatly increases the rapist’s chances of escaping punishment by removing the only witness to the crime (Alexander & Noonan, 1979; Groth, 1979a; Hagen, 1979). This might be particularly likely when there is little or no difference between the punishment for rape and the punishment for murder (Lyle Steadman, personal communication, May 14, 1984). …Conclusion Public awareness of the violence and horror of the act of rape as experience by the victim has been crucial to facilitating social change. However, at present, the evidence does not justify the denial of sexual motivation on behalf of the rapist. This point is significant since adherence to the “not sex” explanation may have the unintended consequence of hindering attempts to prevent rape. For example, the effectiveness of instruction manuals on how to avoid rape (see Crook, 1980), treatment programs for rapists (see Brecher, 1978), and public policy perspectives are potentially compromised by the denial of sexual aspect of the crime. Although there may be evidence of the unimportance of sexual motivation in the act of rape, such evidence cannot be unskeptically adopted. Rape is prevented by accurate knowledge about its causes, and accurate knowledge can only be obtained by the objective examination of evidence and the skeptical evaluation of conclusions based on that evidence. The preceding twelve arguments have gone unquestioned for nearly twenty years, suggesting that skepticism has been noticeably absent from recent research on rape. Perhaps the reason for this lack of skepticism and accurate knowledge about rape is that “rape” the behavior has become obscured by the politics of “rape” the “master symbol of women’s oppression” (Schwendinger & Schwendinger, 1985, p. 93). An objective and accurate approach to the prevention of rape requires that the subject of rape be “de-politicized.” Unfortunately, many researchers on rape fear such an objective approach: “To use the word rape in a de-politicized context functions to undermine ten years of feminist consciousness-raising” (Blackman, 1985, p. 118; original emphasis). Surely such fears are unfounded. “Consciousness-raising” is the act of falsifying unsupported dogma. Adherence to unsupported dogma like the “not sex” explanation of rape not only prohibits true “consciousness-raising” but potentially does so at the expense of an increased number of rape victims.

Brian - 13/08/2006 23:06

Now I know that there are a few of you who grow tired of my argumentations against the things by which you believe in; that’s ok, that’s your prerogative - you have your view points, and I have mine. But before I continue I also want to again publicly apologize to Mary for my sharpness and forked tongue - it was uncalled for and unnecessary, and I ask that she forgive me of my ill temperament. Nevertheless, I have noticed that some people have not fully understood where I stand on the subject, though I thought I made my self perfectly clear. I’ve seen my comments taken out of context or misunderstood. So, in closing, I have made several bullet point arguments with the supporting evidence to support them so that there is no mistake where I’m coming from, and where I’m going with this. Unfortunately, most of these articles may not be available to you as they are Journals closely guarded and held by several elite search engines accessible to most college campuses; nevertheless, you might be able to locate them at your local library. I would encourage you to educate yourselves about this matter as it is a bigger problem than simply the petty argument about your rights to wear whatever clothing you want, or whether or not rape is about power or sexual gratification. The real issue is how to recognize a potential situation, and what you can do to avoid it – or know what avenues to take after it happens. I wish you guys the best of luck in trying to come to a solution and a conclusion – and hopefully this world will have been made a better place for you having done so. This has been truly fun to debate, but alas, I think I’ve made my points and will leave it at that. Take care, Brian PS: Below are my formidable arguments: 1. Rape is NOT simply all about power – in fact, it would be dangerous to assume so. Dr. Palmer from Arizona State University, agrees: “power is more a means to an end” (1988). He also argues that not only are attractiveness a key ingredient that rapists look for, but more so vulnerability, as described in his twelfth argument. Dr. Palmer also brings to question the validity of the twelve defining arguments that the feminists utilized to argue their point, and argues point per point the original twelve arguments. He points out that you have to look at the motivation behind the rape occurrence, and “unfortunately, motivation is a covert entity, existing solely in the minds of individuals.” To read more about how he counter argues each point about power and rape, you can find his article information here: Twelve Reasons Why Rape is Not Sexually Motivated: A Skeptical Examination. By: Palmer, Craig T.. Journal of Sex Research, Nov88, Vol. 25 Issue 4, p512, 19p; (AN 5687913) 2. There are other characteristics of those who rape. In other words, there are common historical ingredients found amongst rape perpetrators: such as viewing of pornography (as well as drug and alcohol abuse etc). In other words, pornography is highly and very closely associated with those who rape – (not to be confused with the argument that those who watch become instant rapists). My reasoning’s are the following: a. Most, if not all rapists, have issues with pornography addiction. b. Pornography, I believe, is the root cause of rape and rape is the symptom of moral decay within society. i. Counselors and psychologists recognize its effects. ii. It plants the seed of thought which builds up and grows. 1. It produces the thought of seduction and sexual gratification where the woman is subjected to the male figure – or to each other. iii. It desensitizes and demoralizes 1. Based on lust and improper relationships between men and women. 2. Objectifies women (& men). iv. It’s addictive via a chemical produced by the Brain and introduced into the nervous system. Sources: Opinion Editorial, “Internet porn proliferating” Deseret Morning News editorial, Saturday, August 12, 2006, http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,645192478,00.html Book review of Dangerous Relationships: Pornography, Misogyny, and Rape By Diana Russell California: Sage, 1998. By: Lemonik, Baila R.. Sexualities, Evolution & Gender, Dec2003, Vol. 5 Issue 3, p217-221, 5p; DOI: 10.1080/14616660410001663504; (AN 13518058) Social Influence Effects on Responses to Sexually Explicit Material Containing Violence. By: Norris, Jeanette. Journal of Sex Research, Feb91, Vol. 28 Issue 1, p67-76, 10p, 3 charts; (AN 9608011169) Adult Users Only: The Dilemma of Violent Pornography/The Female Fear/Defining Rape/Justifiable Homicide: Battered Women, Self-Defense, and the Law (Book). By: Roth, Susan. Signs: Journal of Women in Culture & Society, Winter91, Vol. 16 Issue 2, p379, 3p; (AN 9102250018) Exposure to Sexually Explicit Materials and Attitudes Toward Rape: A Comparison of Study Results. By: Linz, Daniel. Journal of Sex Research, Feb89, Vol. 26 Issue 1, p50, 35p; (AN 5692768) The Use of Sexually Explicit Stimuli by Rapists, Child Molesters, and Nonoffenders. By: Marshall, W.L.. Journal of Sex Research, May88, Vol. 25 Issue 2, p267, 22p; (AN 5686950) RAPE RATES AND THE CIRCULATION RATES OF ADULT MAGAZINES. By: Scott, Joseph E.; Schwalm, Loretta A.. Journal of Sex Research, Jan88, Vol. 24 Issue 1-4, p241-250, 10p; (AN 5693649) A CRITICAL ANALYSIS OF RECENT RESEARCH ON VIOLENT EROTICA. By: Mould, Douglas E.. Journal of Sex Research, Jan88, Vol. 24 Issue 1-4, p326, 15p; (AN 5693796) EXPOSURE TO PORNOGRAPHY AND ATTITUDES ABOUT WOMEN AND RAPE: A CORRELATIONAL STUDY. By: Garcia, Luis T.. Journal of Sex Research, Aug86, Vol. 22 Issue 3, p378, 8p; (AN 5688886) Repeated Exposure to Violent and Nonviolent Pornography: Likelihood of Raping Ratings and Laboratory Aggression Against Women. By: Malamuth, Neil M.; Ceniti, Joseph. Aggressive Behavior, 1986, Vol. 12 Issue 2, p129-137, 9p; (AN 11928358) Can there be Positive Effects of Participation in Pornography Experiments? By: Check, James V.P.; Malamuth, Neil M.. Journal of Sex Research, Feb84, Vol. 20 Issue 1, p14, 18p; (AN 5686773) Examining Masculinity Norms, Problem Drinking, and Athletic Involvement as Predictors of Sexual Aggression in College Men. By: Locke, Benjamin D.; Mahalik, James R.. Journal of Counseling Psychology, Jul2005, Vol. 52 Issue 3, p279-283, 5p; DOI: 10.1037/0022-0167.52.3.279; (AN 17782969) Differentiating sex offences: a behaviorally based thematic classification of stranger rapes. By: Canter, David V.; Bennell, Craig; Alison, J.; Reddy., Steve. Behavioral Sciences & the Law, Mar/Apr2003, Vol. 21 Issue 2, p157-174, 18p; (AN 11818902) Mark B. Kastleman, (2001) The Drug of the New Millennium-the Science of How Internet Pornography Radically Alters the Human Brain and Body-A Guide for Parents, Spouses, Clergy and Counselors. Granite Pub; 2nd ed edition http://contentwatch.com/learn_center/article.php/100 3. There are different forms of rape and/or forms of sexual aggression: date rape, drug rape, one night stands, rape in the relationship of perpetrator to animal, (bestiality), elderly, men, women and children, and finally, the deceased (post mortem rape). a. (Sourced within previously sited sources) 4. There is more to sexual aggression than simply rape – such as sexual predators who prey upon women who lure them into the bedroom/car with her consent – (or like Diana’s case, reluctantly with/without her consent – Sorry to hear about that Diana, that’s gotta suck). She may at the time not realize that she’s even been preyed upon until much later. a. i.e. one night stands, rendezvous, affairs etc. i. (Sourced within previously sited sources) This website gives a brief statistical analysis of the relationship to the victim (2004). Most of them are known to their victims, while 31% are strangers. ii. http://www.rainn.org/statistics/index.html 5. Final point: Think Safety – go in groups, ask yourself what the guy’s intensions are. Etc. a. Consider Environmental factors in which date rape/ rape occurs: parties where alcohol is present is only one example that is given, however, this is not always the case, but can be a place where predators use drugs to dope up their victims – or lure their victim into the bedroom with her consent. Alcohol or drugs do not always have to be present, but there are so many more other environmental considerations – such as dark parking lots, stairwells, etc. i. (Sourced within previously sited sources) b. Sure you have a right to dress what ever you wish to wear, my point is to be careful with who you are attracting. Not every guy who sees you has the right intensions. Shackelford, as well as other studies by other leading psychologists, has statistically proven that young women between the ages of 20 – 24 are grossly overrepresented in the statistics of having been raped, or raped-murdered. But this is not the only isolated group. Dr. Craig Palmer in the 12 arguments explains why. You can read about who is the likely target in this article: Are young women the special targets of rape-murder? By: Shackelford, Todd K.. Aggressive Behavior, 2002, Vol. 28 Issue 3, p224-232, 9p, 4 graphs; DOI: 10.1002/ab.90024; (AN 11774295) Again, take care, have fun and live long and perspire. C-ya.

Mary - 14/08/2006 11:02

Brian, first of all, you say that your point Is that people are nOt shocked by pornography and then you say it is fo shock value? That makes no sense You still have not provided any evidence whatsoever for this drug you are talking about. That is what I am waiting on. So, now you are blaming prostitution for rape as well as pron - or is it instead of? Hundreds of people and indeed couple watch pronography every week - it has not turned thme all into rapists. Has it not occured to you that there exists a type of 'addictive personality'. If it were not sex, it would be drink, drugs, sopping, TV, promography, chocolate, nicoteen or something else. Just the same way as not everyone who takes a drink is an alcholic - very few are, in fact. You whole argument seems to surround a supposed drug you provide no reference to and anecdotal as opposed to empircal evidence - hardly a little flaw. If drug addicts could pay for drugs on the street would they steal - No. Sex addicts, as opposed to rapists, can pay postitutes for sex or as it is quite legal in Holland, got to brothels. Does this mean that the crime of rape does not exist in Holland? If you really thinks so then you are seriously missing out on the facts. If studies and statistics proved that A heavily leads to B, then the vast majority of those who wached pornography would be rapists - they are not - QED.

Diana - 14/08/2006 14:44

I found it very interesting that 87% of abusers didn't use violence but used verbal coercian. But maybe that is because they already know that the woman is afraid and they have achieved the fear factor already. Women would show by their body language that they are already afraid. There would be avoidance of the mouth, clenched fists, heart beating quickly, legs trying to stay closed, muscles tightened in the vaginal area. So maybe there is a power factor involved here and maybe this actually drives them on. The fact that my boss never looked for co-operation from me seems to reinforce this theory. If a woman doesn't show this kind of body language and also shows that she is not afraid maybe this is where they resort to violence because that is the part that they want first before they carry out the act. I also noticed that I was being ignored at work by my boss until the set date came near. Was he using his power here as well? I believe that he was trying to keep me afraid during this time. When the date was near he would whisper in my ear about how he was looking forward to tomorrow night and not to be late.

Ann - 14/08/2006 18:05

I would certainly have some queries in regard to Brian's postings. Where did Dr Palmer get his rapists from? They had to be, at the very least, totally compliant & remorseful in order to be honest. The link with Pornography is very dubious as far as I'm concerned. Looking at pornography does not turn anyone into a rapist. The fact that rapists look at pornography means they have a problem around sex, the opposite sex or their own sexual identity! Brian, does it not strike you as strange to blame pornography yet not ask the question "Why do some people who look at pornography turn to rape whilst the majority don't"? Brian, If you look at the global statistics for murder. Are you saying that the female age group of between 20 - 24 are the largest groups of murder victims? I don't think so. Also, where in your arguements do you take on the motivation of rapists that rape old people & children? (other than them being vulnerable) What actually 'turns them on' and/or gives them their sexual gratification? To me, Rape is sex without my consent where there is possible violence or a threat to my life or as in the case of Sophie, just being completely over powered by 4 bully boy, criminals. I think what happened to you Diana, as awful as it was, muddies the waters as there was a certain amount of compliance from you (albeit, I fully understand your reasons, but it nevertheless gave your Boss the impression that what he was doing was not forced on you).

Diana - 14/08/2006 19:15

Yes, I can understand Ann where you might think that I was compliant at the time. This is the part of me that I most regret. He would of course have gotton the impression that things were okey when I kept saying nothing. Maybe if I had put up a struggle from the word go I would have been much better off. It could have gone one way or the other. Either he would have left me alone or he might have become violent. I couldn't take a chance though if he was going to hit me. As far as I was concerned I was being forced into something that I didn't want and I was being overpowered. I think there are more levels to rape then you realise. In Sophies case you were talking about a once off rape but there are other cases when a person is raped over and over again for a certain length of time. Now one has to weigh up which one is worse. Somehow a once off rape would nearly have suited me better then two years of ashamed silence.

finn - 16/08/2006 10:28

Diana,it did not have to carry on that long if you told someone.I know i would have had no matter what age i was at the time.Sophie could have been killed,she did not know them which in your case you new your atacker.You new where he lived ,you new his name which in sophie s case she did not know anything about them.so i think your case is not as bad as sophie s case.

Mary - 16/08/2006 12:15

To be fair to Diana, so many rape victims do know their attackers, that is not uncommon. What happend to Sophie was of course horrendous, that goes without saying but I think that Diane's boss was also usign power - a different kind of pewer over her. Perpetrators like that don't pick on women who are strong-willed and confident who'll tell them where to go but on those they know they can succeed (for want of a better word) with who lack confidence and self-esteem and in my view he also preyed on the fgact that she as very young, in her first job, needed the money and was in recipt of kindness form his wife. In my opinion Diane you did his wife no favours by not telling someone but of course at 15 you weren't to know that. We all have 20/20 vision in hindsight and he took gross and unfair advantage of you.

Dee - 16/08/2006 12:43

Ive just read through each of your comments, I have to appluad yous for having the courage to speak out loud, even if it is only on this chat. I havent experienced this dreadful situation myself and hopefully i never will but my friend has,I was out with her that night when it happened,only we separated for 1 hour before i found her in a state.There is no excuse for evil people who commit this crime,nor is there such cases of it being less worse because you knew your attacker.I personnally feel that YES the death penalty should be brought into this country for these criminals,locking them up is not enough,they should never be aloud walk the streets again,not should they be aloud sit in a cell with other inmates.I really feel that our Government do not deal with this situation strongly.Maybe if they experienced it or someone close to them did, then they would have tougher feelings about it.My heart goes out to all of you victims and I pray that yous are able to get on with your lives.x

Diana - 17/08/2006 00:39

Finn, you say that no matter what age you were you would tell somebody. Well, think of a secret that you yourself have at the moment or one that you had before. Why are you keeping that secret to yourself? Dee mentioned the death penality which is something that I couldn't go along with at all no matter how horrific an attack is. If anything this would make a victim feel much worse because events like this bring up all different kinds of feelings as well. A death penality would literally reinforce a mental image that somehow it is all the victims fault for this happening. The guilt on the victims shoulders would be immense. There are so many thoughts that are brought into circumstances like this. I have already questioned my own part in this by wanting to know why I attracted these kind of people. Because I hadn't the courage to say no I actually did comply. But there are others. Sometimes you actually feel sorry for the person doing this to you and you make excuses for him. You could convince yourself that you are helping him out. You can even convince yourself to enjoy what is being done to you in the hope that it could be over faster. It is unreal what can go through your mind at times like this. Before the event you are mentally preparing yourself all the time just so that you can survive one more day of it. You look at every different angle to come around it. You end up calling on every emotion that you have in your body. It's sheer hard work and can absolutely drain you. It's such a complicated area and even though this has come out on this site as well as a rape by four men I don't know if you could ever really explain exactly what dynamics are involved here. There are probably even emotions involved that never come up in the normal course of life.

Sophie - 17/08/2006 11:27

I appreciate your support Finn, I really do but I don't think it's fair to compare cases of rape of any sort. While of course what happened to me was horribly traumatic, so too was what happened to Diana. We must remember that I was much older than Diana when I was raped. What happened to Diana happened at an extremely vulnerable age when most of us barely even knew what sex was. I was eight years older than she was and so I was far more mature, most fifteen year olds still don't know who or what they are, it is a difficult age. For something like this to happen to somebody at such a young age can have a hugley detrimental effect on their growing up and exploration of the self. I'm not trying to say that she was worse affected that I was or vice versa, but our cases would have affected us both in very different ways. What happened to both of us was disgusting and Diana needs support as much as I do. Comparing her case to mine is not going to achieve this. I may not agree with her opinions but I do recognise her pain. Again Finn, I really do appreciate your support and I don't want you thinking I'm trying to get at you in any way, but I think Diana could do with a bit of that support also. Anyhow, I really wanted to address this post to Brian. I am a little behind in the discussion so forgive me if I am referring back to your less recent posts. Brian, I firmly dispute the fact that rape is not about power. I have read a couple of the articles you cited but for every article claiming that rape is not about power, there is also one arguing the opposite. I deliberately avoided the feminist articles, of which, I admit, there are many but there are also multiple articles written by psychologists who have used extensive research to back their arguments claiming the contrary. These articles argue that power is the dominant force behind a man's decision to rape, not sexual pleasure. They get pleasure out of knowing that there is nothing their victim can do. In Dublin, as I am sure is the case in the rest of Ireland too, sex is not something that is difficult to find. If a man was purely after sexual gratification, surely he would go about getting it in a way that would not potentially result in a prison sentence and in a way which was far easier. I feel there is something far more sinister in question. I may be misconstruing your argument but I understand that you believe that since there is generally an absence of any extreme violence in rape cases, then the rapist must not be seeking a sense of power over his victim. I find this hard to swallow. I know that I would have much rather been severely beaten up as opposed to raped. A woman's body and her right to say no, whether she be a prostitute or a nun, is her most sacred asset. I believe that all men know this, as do rapists, and therefore they feel they will get a far greater sense of power through raping a woman than beating her up. The idea that rapists seek some kind of pseudo-intimacy with their victims not only fills me with deep disgust but I also firmly believe that it is not true. There is no intimacy involved in a rape. It is a sick and repulsive act where the perpetrator is fully aware that his victim is both terrified and non-compliant. Those men who raped me sought no form of intmacy or distorted relationship with me, they treated me like I meant less than nothing to them. Whether they were attracted to me or not, I do not feel this played a huge part in what they did. I know that I am a confident person and I am certain that they knew this. They didn't rape me because they knew they couldn't get me any other way, their actions left me scared and helpless, they did it to make themselves feel better than me by reducing me to nothing. No amount of research can tell me otherwise. While I respect the work of the many psychologists you have cited, they weren't there, not when I was raped and not when anybody else was raped either. Research can only see so far. I was there and I know that those men did not merely seek sexual pleasure or to somehow feel loved by me, they wanted to overpower and humiliate me.

Mary - 17/08/2006 13:07

The self-justification you have used in the past is so similar to that used by victims of domestic violence. - It my own fault - I attract abuse mpartners - I should have stuck up for myself then if thre absuer is charged there is a feelign of guilt becuase the victim somehow 'got them into troubl'.

Diana - 17/08/2006 15:21

The reason that reaction comes is because we are very soft-hearted individuals. I think that is one of the main reasons that we could attract these type of people. Rather than examine the surface emotions of the rapist we are inclined to go beyond that into the soul of the person if you like. We 'search' for why he is doing this and come to our own conclusions as to why he does what he does. We are people who believe that there is no such thing as a bad person only someone who is in pain as well and while ironically we can take pain ourselves when it comes to the crunch (by putting them into prison or whatever) we cannot bear their pain. I personally would rather take the pain of another rather than hurt anyone myself. Somehow on some level rapists can recognise this and pick us because they feel safer with us. That means that we are somehow showing this public image without realising it. Maybe there is a way of hiding this image.

finn - 17/08/2006 16:22

Diana said in one of her post 14/8/06 that she would rather be raped once than been repeatly raped,she also said you have to weigh up which one is the worst,every sort of rape is a crime and a terrible thing for someone to go true, i was only answering the qustion that Diana asked in her post on 14/8/06 unless i read her post wrong.

Ann - 17/08/2006 21:05

Diana, we are, for the most part, as women, all soft hearted but what you describe is the old bully boy tactics. Some people think that being soft, is the same as being weak, and that is how bullies come about. I agree totally with you Sophie in regard to the power trip. To me its a mixture of instant self-gratification along with the power trip. Diana, did you ever confront this ex boss of yours? I know in the case of my friend, she eventually confronted her boss & it was only from that point that she started to heal. Its a case of handing back the guilt to the person that dished it out.

Diana - 18/08/2006 03:54

Sophie, to be honest 23 is very young too and I don't know does age really matter in cases like this. You are still going to be traumatised and 'lose' a couple of years aren't you? Many 23 year olds are also just coming out of college into the big bad world if you like. Even a poor old woman could end up dying soon after an event like this. In some cases though there can be connecting events that repeat themselves as well. This is why one of the most important questions I have asked is why did I attract these people? I was already beaten up before this event,followed home several times, had to run across a load of rocks to get away from another, after those two particular years I was pregnant by a boyfriend that didn't want to know, had to go into hiding (because of the shame on the family) attracted another one of those males while I was pregnant and put a child up for adoption. Got married, had to push a neighbour out of my bedroom after sneaking in, another who fell in love with me unknownst to me (I used only talk to him) and wanted to leave his wife so I had to tell him to go away and leave me alone, then went off and fell in love myself and ended up having an affair as well as having his child and upseting my husband terribly. To be honest when I look back I am shocked at the whole set-up! I am shocked at myself and I am shocked at them. I look back with my hand over my mouth and I wonder what in God's name went wrong. I didn't travel the path I was supposed to go at all. I had dreams one time. Really good dreams. Nothing at all like this. If I had seen what was ahead I would have jumped off a cliff and would have been glad to do so. Tell me this Sophie. Did your life take on a new direction after the rape? How do you think that it affected you psychologically? Will you ever be the same again do you think? Was there anything before the rape or any clue that something could be ahead? Or maybe in your case it might have been pure viciousness on the part of the rapists anyway. I think there was a source to mine though and I think it was something I carried myself.

Anon - 19/08/2006 00:58

Diana, There is no need to be shocked at what happened to you. Its called life. I firmly believe that if you ask any older person about their lives they will (if they are being honest) say that it didn't turn out for them the way they thought it would. That is the business of youth, to be full of dreams but the business of life, is realising that they are only dreams! Everyone has regrets, even if they won't admit them. Its called the university of life. If I told you my life story I know you would tell me to write a book. I made all the mistakes too. Sometimes I wondered if I had brought some of these on myself but most of them, I know, I had no control over so I just accept that I must be one of those people that have to learn the lessons of life the hard way but at the end of the day as the old saying goes 'What doesn't kill you makes you stronger'. The experiences we all go through serve to make us what we are. Nobody will learn from our mistakes as we each have to learn ourselves through our own mistakes. Thats how we formulate our opinions and is also where we get our strength. Learning to deal with them and not letting them eat us up is the trick of it all & not letting people who have hurt us (ie your Boss & those 4 thugs that attacked Sophie) make us bitter. Its not that you did anything wrong. The 'thugs' did but coming to terms with it is part of letting it go. I hope that makes sense. Not to let those that really caused us un-neccessary pain continue to do so, leave it back at their doorsteps. Its hard but it can be done.

Brian - 19/08/2006 02:09

Mary, I'm not sure if you've read any of the sources I've provided - especially the one with the drugs. This is the list Mark B. Kastleman discribes - again, if you have read the source, you'd realize that it is a short synopsis of his book which would be more discriptive..., nevertheless, here it is in his words: Whether the motive for consuming pornography and cybersex is sexual appetite, escape/self-medication, or a combination of the two, engaging in these addictions causes the brain and body to "endogenously" produce and release chemical drugs into its own system, just as if they had been injected with a hypodermic needle. These chemicals include: epinephrine (an adrenal gland hormone that "locks-in" memories of experiences occurring at times of high arousal), adrenaline, adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH), noradrenaline, norepinephrine and testosterone, among others. This at-the-push-of-a-button drug injection is dragging millions of troubled victims along in its destructive wake. …There are now hundreds of credible medical, psychological and neurological studies which clearly show that pornography is harmful and dangerous to all involved, directly and indirectly. There is no need to wait for additional research or more millions of victims-the results are in. Another brief synopsis: After more than a decade of research and working with some of the world's leading neuroscientists and neuropsychologists to study the effects of pornography, I can conclusively declare the following: Pornography radically alters the physical and chemical structure of the human brain. Pornography (especially via the Internet) creates an addiction so powerful it is being compared to cocaine and other illicit street drugs. Pornography directly impacts attitudes and behaviors, with rapidly growing numbers of Internet porn-viewers "copy-catting" what they see. Via the Internet, every kind of pornography imaginable (and unimaginable) is flooding society--young and old alike. The consequences are devastating--broken marriages and families, increased sexual violence against women and children, increased sexual activity and disease among teens, sky-rocketing addiction rates, wasted potential and shattered lives. With such overwhelming evidence and devastation, one would expect a sea of voices crying out in opposition to the uncontrolled flow of this extremely harmful material. Sadly, many remain silent, some are "passively" concerned, while others openly oppose any form of what they view as "censorship." But in all the darkness there is a wonderful ray of hope emanating from a surprising group of individuals. Highly intelligent and intuitive, they possess wisdom, awareness and foresight far beyond their years. While the world and many of their peers promote promiscuous permissiveness, these uncommonly courageous leaders light the way with their exemplary lives of service. Who are they? The outstanding high school and college student volunteers of Stand For Decency. While too many in society drone along under the numbing influence of pornography and sexualized media, these bright individuals actually "get it." One day in the not-too-distant future, when the world finally realizes its folly, I have no doubt these valiant pioneers will be looked upon as the true heroes of their time. It is with the greatest enthusiasm, admiration and respect that I give my highest support and stamp of approval to the youth of Stand For Decency. I invite all, teen and adult, to join with this remarkable group. Our futures depend on it. Sincerely, Mark B. Kastleman But alas, enough for now. Ta-ta.

Diana - 22/08/2006 14:02

It took me four days to look in on this topic after writing the last post. Putting confessions down on paper can be far harder than talking to someone. In a face to face situation one tends to hold back because there are too many distractions whereas when you write there are none. And so it was one the most upsetting posts I have ever written and I did not feel very good afterwards. My appetite disappeared the following two days and I am only forcing food down in the last two. I just want to show you that many people are afraid of exposing themselves and therefore do not seek the help they need until it is too late. Communication amongst ourselves is far poorer then we realise and I for one am not surprised at the high sucide rates in this country. There appears to be something blocking us all from opening up properly. Another reason we don't open up properly is because we don't want to dump our baggage on anyone in case we could transfer it. My aim was not to do this and I think that when I felt sick afterwards that I absorbed it rather then left it go out to someone else. Victims of abuse do not look for pity only clarity and we can do our crying ourselves. No-one has to do it for us. Brians last paragraph was a pure inspiration to all of us. I had always perceived myself as a decent person but maybe I just didn't recognise that I had indecency within me too as my affair in particular has shown. I don't know if it is possible to carry nothing but decency within us but we could certainly strive for it and it would be a very interesting journey I would imagine. There was plenty of food for thought in that last paragraph, Brian.

Mary - 22/08/2006 15:16

Bear in mind Brian that Kastleman is a censorship advocate and you don\'t have to delve to past into the history of this country to see where the censorship of free-speech lead us for years. If you censor somethign it becomes taboo - a bit like nudity, there is a great thrill in the secrecy. However if something is in the open, it no longer taboo, no longer secret and does not conain the same thrill. Many of the \'drugs\' he cites the body naturally produces anyway. Some during other kinds of arousal than sexula, some even during exercise. I hope he doesn\'t want to censor exercise as well. Tell me \'tho if those drugs lead ultimatley to rape than why do hey not lead to he same thing in women? Why do we not have the same number of female rapists becuase believe me, women both single and in couples do watch pornography. If pornography is harmful and dangerous to all involved why does it not turn everyone who watches it into a rapist? It\'s a bit like saying that having a few drinks turns everyone into an alcoholic - it patently doesn\'t. Why does he claim that Pornography is more powerful if viewed via the Internet rather than any oter medium. Perhaps it scares him slightly that the internet can\'t be censored, unlike books, magazines, TV, videos and other media. He cites sexual violence against women and children. But pornography as distinct from snuff movies is not about sexual violence. Graphic action movies contain far more violence than pornography. Teens have always been sexually acive, long before the internet was invented and STI\'s existed in Victorian times. Drug addiction existed long before the internet also. Ah, now we get to the nub of his concerns perhaps - \"promiscuous permissiveness\", does he perhaps seek to control not only violence and addiction, which is a very laudable concern, but the activities, in the sexual sense, of other people. \"Stand For Decency\" - that is interesting. In the dark days of the 1950\'S in this country., those who spoke about \'ol decency\' represented the hard-line fundamentalist \"Christian\" right whose chief concern was the denial or autonomy and the control of power over others along with returning this country to the mindset it had a the turn of the 20th century. Thankfully, in this country that \'last bastion\' has been torn down I sincerely hope Kastleman\'s \"Stand For Decency\" do not represent the same thing. Diane, sorry to har you were upset. That must have been awful. Did you feel it was cathartic in any way? I also feel very very strongly that poor communication is inextricably linked to suicide. Many people don\'t learn to communicate as children or a message is conveyed to them that talking about feelign and emotions is somehow not done and I beleive this is a very wrong thing to convey to any child. Others are never given any language to communiate about feelings and emotions. Opening up doesn\'t mean dumping emotional baggage on anyone. What an unfortunate expression. As if our feelign can be dumped - as \'tho they were rubbish and it\'s awful to feel as tho hey are baggage, to be borne and caried around. Of course you are a decent good person. Don\'t go heaping guilt on yourself for something that was not your fault. \"Indecent\" was an ill-defined word that certain sectors of society bandied around to push guilt back on the victim instead of squarely on the perpetrators, where it belongs. Being a victim of rape does not make one indecent any more than being a victim of theft.

Diana - 23/08/2006 04:57

Well, Mary, when there is a huge fuss made over a four year old's behaviour then that child is effectively raped as well. I remember clearly as if it only happened yesterday the first time that I ever attended mass. My parents left my two older brothers bring myself and another brother to mass and stayed home themselves. My mother in particular was never in favor of mass but wanted us to make up our own minds. When it came to communion time we thought everyone was getting sweets so we wanted some too. After receiving it all hell seemed to break loose. My mother even had the news before we went home! In fairness to her though she was great but warned us that there could be trouble. So for the rest of the evening me and my brother were scared of going to school the next morning. My brother was a very nervous child and was far more terrified then I was. The following day the nun in charge of our classroom mentioned that there was a very bold child in the classroom and she stared down at me. Immediately I felt large butterfly movements in my stomach and a tightness in my throat. She left the class go on for a while and then I heard my brother screaming in the next classroom. I don't know what was happening to him inside but the next minute my hand was grabbed and I was led out of the room. I tried to pull away but she kept slapping my hand so I just gave in. We were then led around to every classroom and told of the great sacrilage we were after causing to the church. That word sacrilage stood out because I had never heard it before. My brother was in an awful state all the time and I felt that I couldn't do anything for him. I had to beg him to put out his hand for four hard slaps with a stick in the last of the classrooms just to get the whole thing over with. I can even remember the stick so plainly and I can see the nun's face that carried out the action. From then on I was nervous of her but it was my brother's classroom teacher that he was afraid of. I still remember her face as well. Surprisingly though one would think you would be afraid of churches after that episode but it was a place that I always felt protected in. It was like a special hideout and I got to know the times when no-one would be in there.

LouthChick - 23/08/2006 12:21

Diana you really should go for counselling especially when you make a comment like this: ''....when there is a huge fuss made over a four year old's behaviour then that child is effectively raped as well.'' You have so many issues that need to be addressed.

Mary - 23/08/2006 12:53

Diana, you say, when a huge fuss made over a four year old's behaviour then that child is effectively raped as well. Could you please expalain what you mean as this makes no sense to me. Perhaps yourself and your two brothers should not have been let gpo to mass on your own if you diudn't understand the significance of the communion. But for your school teachers to behave liek that was just plain WRONG. If they wanted to take anyone to task, maybe they should have spoken to your parents as you were unsupervised or your religion teacher but while their actions were out of order and I'm sure very frighteneing to leave such a lasting impression on your mind, what they did does NOT equate with rape.

Diana - 23/08/2006 16:42

Okey, maybe that word is not the right one for that particular episode so tell me what word would you put on it? And what was done to my brother? Why was he screaming so much in the classroom? Why did this particular episode happen at all? What did it mean? How many more people have had to deal with that and cannot come out and say it? I have already mentioned this case before. I don't need to go to counselling, it is those who carry out these acts need counselling not me.

Mary - 24/08/2006 09:02

The word I would use was traumatised. And yes, I think perhaps your brother if it is still on his mind and others who have bene affected need counselling or help of some sort.

LouthChick - 24/08/2006 11:33

I believe You DO need counselling Diana. Why do you think you don\'t?? Do you feel good about yourself?People who carry out these \'acts\' need more than counselling! Victims need counselling, victims of anything.. Impartial advice or whatever from someone who is a trained counseller. Stop blaming yourself, deal with it and stop asking why? why? why? Try and get help.

Diana - 24/08/2006 13:12

I don't need any counselling at the moment because there is no-one I can trust. Maybe I will never trust again. Don't mention that word to me again!!

Mary - 24/08/2006 14:53

The very fact that you don't trust anyone may be the reason you need counselling. Through it with help you may learn to trust again.

LouthChick - 25/08/2006 11:24

Mmmmmmm Diana. I don't know what to make of you really. Don't take any advise then!! Just keep posting and getting the same sort of replys again + again + again + again.............Maybe you enjoy it.

Diana - 25/08/2006 23:20

Yes, actually, I am loving every mintute of it. I think it is great fun. It makes me forget things so there is no excuse for me now if you know what I mean? The music doesn't matter if it is loud or soft. I can now cope with both of them very easily. So we are on the road again all the time! Yipee!!!! YiPeee! YipppppEE!!!

Chana - 28/08/2006 08:50

Musis, on the road, Yippee???? Diana, suggest you seek some help for yourself very very soon.

Diana - 10/09/2006 15:03

Chana, you were right. I needed a bit of extra help all the same. Sometimes one thinks that they can manage everything by themselves afterwards when in fact they can't. My last post was ridiculous and I wish it had been rejected. I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that. Having said that it was a tremendous relief to write about those problems that I encountered and I feel far freer because of it.

finn - 04/10/2006 17:10

hi every one,i hope every one is alright,i have not heard from anyone on this site in a long time.

Sophie - 04/10/2006 22:02

Hi Finn, I haven't actually logged in here in a while. Discussing what happened to me and arguing about it really helped me. The use of words like 'yippeee' just hurt and are insulting, that's why I haven't entered any posts of late. It's nice to know that you are still thinking about us all though- so thank you. Sophie.

Diana - 05/10/2006 02:08

One area I would like to point out again was the episode of the communion. I said during it that a child is effectively raped. What I meant by that was that a child's mind could be raped here in that it leaves a lasting image in the person's mind. That to me would mean that the image is stuck and cannot move but stays stuck. How can a person move on from an image like this especially when the image is so strong that it feels as though you are reliving it over and over again? Was it this image that attracted all those other people too? Will it keep attracting other people in the future and will I ever be rid of it? Sorry about all the questions but it does worry me a lot.

finn - 05/10/2006 12:16

hi sophie,im glad talking about it helped you,i hope you got the help you needed and wish you luck in the future....

Diana - 06/10/2006 13:29

Sophie, I have already apologised for the words that I used in that post. Now either we are willing to carry on with this conversation or not. There is a lot more that we can discover but if you all want to drop it then so be it.

Reflector - 14/03/2007 09:33

Now the latest case of a rapist getting a suspended sentance????, That Judge should be sacked for incompetance, is there any wonder that the law abiding public have lost confidence in the justice system.

Andra - 15/03/2007 01:16

Frankly I find all these 'rape' cases where the women is 'sleeping' while being 'raped' very suspicious. I cannot realistically think that having sex with a women who is sleeping that it wont wake her. I honestly find that impossible unless she is so zonked/passed out that she wouldnt remember instigating the sex in the first place. I have experimented with my wife (she agrees with me that the women will wake up by the way) and every single time before even it gets to penetration she wakes up! Even after a night out. So , no I dont buy these 'sleep rapes'

Anonymous - 15/03/2007 11:35

Andra, your wife is not every woman. Just because a women is drunk or drugged does not give any man the right to rape her.

Ally - 07/04/2007 12:53

Hello, I'm afraid I haven't read every post in this discussion but have spent a good hour getting the gist of the conversaiton. Sophie, my heart goes out to you, I cried while reading your first message, partly for you and partly for my best friend. My good friend phoned me early on a Saturday morning last month and asked me to meet her for a cup of tea. When I met her she was very upset. She had been dating a guy for 6 weeks, and had waited that long before sleeping with him. She had previously told me that they intended to sleep together for the first time the night before (that Friday night) after a party. That Saturday morning, she told me that he had gotten very drunk the night before, and had acted obnoxiously toward her and everyone else at the party. She had had a few drinks herself and wasn't thinking quite straight, so she still went back to his house, but he had annoyed and upset her so much with his behviour that by the time they got to the house she had decided not to have s*x with him. But as she put it when she told me, "it kind of happened anyway". She didn't know whether this was her fault or whether she had asked for it by not fighting him off, but she said that she didn't want it and had no control over what was happening. I didn't know whether what happened to her was rape, but told her that it was by no means her fault. Just because she and this man had previously agreed to have sex, did not mean that she had signed a binding contract. She had the right to change her mind at any stage, and he was under an obligation to respect this. But he didn't. She was wearing jeans (not that it should matter what she was wearing). I was shocked when she showed me bruises on her arms, chest and hips, and told me that this man called her "dirty slut" and "b*tch" during sex. My friend told me that she had simply tried to block out what was happening and waited for him to finish. She seemed to think that she had merely had a bad sexual experience, and didn't quite know what to make of it, but to me it seems like more than that - she had no control over this situation and did not ask for it. Whether or not she fought against it is irrelevant. I still don't know whether or not this is rape, but I believe that no woman (in fact, no person) is to blame for any sexual trauma that happens to them, no matter what they're wearing or what they say or do beforehand. My friend certainly wasn't, and neither was Sophie.

Tired - 28/06/2007 16:39

Hi, I have been following this discussion for quite sometime and I think the whole dress issue you speak of is media sourced! look at our so called role models dress sense... its enought to just walk around naked. But no matter the type of dress a human should respect another... not put them in a place they will be in harms way. I started a job one year ago and since one of my bosses has started a seedy affair with me which I have tried to back out of loads of times. I was unaware of his girlfriend when we started dating but once I was aware I tried to tell him no but he constancly catches me alone. He texts and rings me all the time when I am not with him and is extremely posessive. However since this started last sept I has never slept with him. I have refused at every turn but no I feel as tho my excuses are running low... Any advice?

Anonymous - 02/07/2007 11:06

Tire, if he persists in attempting to have a relationship with you and you do not want to carry onthat relationship - then this is simply sexual harrassment. Which there are laws against in the workplace.

Andra - 02/11/2007 18:01

Anon - "Just because a women is drunk or drugged does not give any man the right to rape her2. Obviously not and no one said it does, but she being drunk or high does create the scenario where she has forgotten her consent. Yes? I dont think there are many people out there who think rape is a good thing. Rape in its true meaning is most definately a vile crime. What I have difficulty with with is the use of the word 'rape'. It is so overused that it has lost its meaning. Soon an uninvited kiss on the cheek by a schoolboy is going to be called a rape. So this whole 'I am a women so I must be a victim of rape' society is really hurting the 'true' rape victims by trivialising what is essentially a gross act. SO due to all these different types of rapes ie. date rape, marriage rape, sleep rape, eye rape - before you argue this one I have heard women saying 'he raped me with his eyes' yes folks strange but true!.... Well I now have rape fatigue.

Anon - 07/11/2007 18:20

Tired, If you said No and you mean No then that is it. Keep his text messages and tape his calls if you can and if he persists, then take him to a tribunal for sexual harassment in the work place. Obviously, you will then need to start looking for another job but that's not the end of the world. If you succumb to him then you are and will be seen as even worse than him and literally won't have a leg to stand on (pardon the pun!).

Anonymous - 08/11/2007 12:02

Yes, rape is most definitely a vile crime. To suggst that an uninvited kiss on the cheek by anyone is going to be called a rape is not only nonsense it is an attempt by Andra to trivialise a vile act. I don't know what society you live in but I and every man and woman I know don't live on one where 'I am a women so I must be a victim of rape'. All these different types of rapes ie. date rape, marriage rape, sleep rape are still RAPE. One of the vilest acts one human being can commit against another. If they cause Andra or anyone else to have "rape fatigue" that says far more about the acclous insensitivity of Andra and his ilk that it does about rape or its victims. There is no such thing as 'eye rape'. If someone only "undresses someone else with their eyes" - then they are simply lecherous and need to grow up or cop themselves on.

Davey - 26/03/2008 13:12

The trouble is that women often dress very provacatively presumably in the hope of attracting a tall dark handsome millionaire. The problem is that they also attract the old fat ugly skint blokes as well, the ones whom they don't fancy. Modern humans are really no different from neolithic cavemen when one gets down to basics except that nowadays it is no longer socially acceptable to capture ones mate with a club. Whilst one can hardly expect western women to wear burkhas, women who wear tiny mini-skirts that scarcely cover their private parts are behaving badly. Looking at a recent divorce settlement that worked out at £700 per hour one can see why they do it, however if females really don't want to be pestered by males there is a simple solution. WEAR A RING, fourth finger left hand, OK!

Anonymous - 26/03/2008 14:30

So Davey, does your opinion of "behaving badly" entitle a man to rape a woman? I sincerely hope no man, bar the most neandathal is sick enough to think that. Incidentally rape in the extreme repressive societies where burka's are worn, also happens, but if you think that wearing a ring protects against vile sicko rapists you are out of your mind. As any women knows, being pestered and being raped are two totally different things.

barbie86 - 26/03/2008 15:33

A woman should be able to walk around in a bra and thong without worrying about being raped. The only people to blame for rape are the rapists. I find it interesting that such a big deal is made over provocative clothing and the like, when most victims are raped by someone they know: and in almost half of cases, by their partner. In which case clothing has absolutely nothing at all to do with it. I would also say that the hoo-haa about clothing IMO demonstrates a lack of understanding about rape, and why men do it. A rapist doesn't rape someone because he likes the look of her legs/breasts and thinks she's up for it. Rape is not about sex, it is about power, control and humiliation. A short skirt is likely to be attractive to a potential rapist not because he thinks the woman is 'asking for it'; but because access is easier than if she were wearing trousers. Personally I object to wearing trousers and thick belts on the off-chance I might get raped; I'm not sure how others feel about this.

Papa - 26/03/2008 16:00

Ah yes Davey, a magic ring that protects against sex attacks? Where do you buy these rings? Should children wear them too to protect against paedos?

Davey - 27/03/2008 00:39

Having now read the posts more carefully I would say that some forms of rape are more akin to vandalism - a desire to rule the streets by smashing and destroying everything in sight. Presumably the feeling of power that vandals have over things that cannot fight back gives them a "buzz". The next stage in their sick behaviour is to attack people but in general they are cowards who will not tackle a worthy opponent. Knee them where it hurts if you can.

Anonymous - 27/03/2008 10:15

Alas not mere vandalism Davey, but violation. While having your car vandalised is an dreadful thing to happen, it doesn't compare to rape.

barbie86 - 27/03/2008 21:20

Rape is one of the worst things a person can experience. The effects often last a lifetime. Victims often suffer feelings of self-blame and guilt; they often develop trust issues. Female victims may abstain from any sexual contact whatsoever, even with a partner; others may engage in promiscuous behavior which can be very damaging. Victims often develop mental illnesses such as depression and Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. PTSD has a whole host of symptoms which are very distressing; among them is flashbacks, which personally I've found to be the worst. Often anything can trigger a flashback: it could be a comment someone's made, it could be seeing something that reminds the victim of the place they were attacked; it could be something so apparently trivial as their partner touching a certain part of them during sex; it might be something on TV. Flashbacks often occur during sex, and can seriously damage relationships. Mental illnesses like depression may also lead many victims to harm themselves in some way: this might be through something like drinking or drug-taking, promiscuous behavior, or cutting. These are all things commonly experienced by victims of rape and abuse. I myself have experienced all of these, and it has taken me 6 years to get everything under control and get back to some semblance of normality. For many it will take much longer than 6 years to really deal with things. One of the hardest things about recovering from rape and sexual assault is knowing that it will ALWAYS be with you, and will always affect you in some way, however small. It's always there, at the back of your mind, waiting to rear it's ugly head. Because of the nature of rape the emotions experienced and the issues that develop afterwards are often more complex, more difficult to deal with, and much more likely to have a lasting impact than for most other crimes. People who trivialise rape or try to make light of it should be utterly ashamed of themselves. It is a horrific thing to experience, and those who are victims of it should not be belittled or mocked, or made to feel as though they are making a big deal over nothing; they should be admired for their strength, bravery and courage in dealing with such an awful experience.

florance - 01/04/2008 03:15

hi can anyone advise me on the experience of being sexually attacked. my daughter has been a year ago and only now told me she had hid it til now,i noticed she was very different but didnt know why.now she cries all the time wont report it,because afraid what others may think.she blames herself.thinks maybe she deserved it.and has no interest in going out.she is very disturbed about it.this boy has been with young girls prior,i didnt know it happened.i should have kept a closer eye on her when going out.what advice can i give her now until she can come to terms with it somehow and report it?

Anonymous - 01/04/2008 11:03

Florance, you cannot be with someone 24 X 7 and you have to accept that none of this was your fault any more than it was hers. Stay close, emotionally with your daughter and try your best to let her know in every way you can, that she can trust you absolutely and that there is nothing she cannot tell you and that nothing she tells you will shock you or make you reject her. I cannot stress how important that is because right now one of the things she may well feel is very alone and rejected by the world. She needs to know that her Mum stands apart from that. Also, see if you can get her to see a counseller. The rape crisis centre (they deal with abuse, not just rape) may be a great source of help in this regard.

barbie86 - 01/04/2008 20:56

Florance, as anon said you are not to blame; neither is your daughter. The only person responsible is the person who did this to her. My advice would be to let her know you're there for her, and to listen to her if she needs to talk about any part of it. Do not push her to talk, as this can do more harm than good. Similarly don't push her into reporting this incident, or into things like counseling. Everything must be done in her own time, when she feels ready. Only she will know when this is. It could be weeks, it might be months, it could even be years. Stress to her that she is NOT to blame for this. But understand that unfortunately feelings of self-blame are common and it can take a while to accept it wasn't your fault (this will probably sound very strange, but there is a weird comfort at first in thinking 'if I'd done x or y maybe it wouldn't have happened'; to accept you weren't in any way responsible means accepting that you were powerless, and this is VERY scary. It also opens up the idea that, because there wasn't anything you could have realistically done to stop it, it could happen again. This is how I felt, at any rate) Mention counseling to her, as this can be a huge help. The fact she has opened up to you about it means she may well be ready to talk; and often it can be easier to talk to a stranger - it's less painful. Rape Crisis have centers all over; visit their website and have a look. They also offer practical advice to relatives and friends of victims, and have information on rape and sexual assault and how victims might feel, which might be helpful in understanding better what your daughter is going through. Also suggest she tries on-line forums for support; I found talking to other victims INVALUABLE. I can't describe how much of a relief it is to say how you feel, which to anyone else might sound odd, and have other victims say 'yes, that's just how I feel': suddenly you're less alone; other people know what you're going through, you aren't a freak..! Hope that helps, and if you need any more support, or have any more concerns or questions, I'll do my best to help. Best wishes, Ruth

florance - 02/04/2008 00:03

anonymous,thank you for your reply.ive been doing what you suggested since i was informed of this you have made valid suggestions,its like a roller coaster, just when i think i have her mood up it goes plumeting down again.ive contacted rape crises but she doesnt feel in the mood to speak of it to any one.she says she wll go to councillor and than rejects it again,living through this experience makes me feel so sorry for any one who has had the misfortune to ever have gone through it.

florance - 03/04/2008 01:23

Barbie86,thank you for for the supportive comments you have been very helpful.i am at present being like her shadow.quietly there always for when she needs me and my husband.no i wouldnt push her to do anything,i did however suggest her options to her as she was so pityful and said i dont know what to do.today she has just given me tight hugs,ive reassured her we love her and no matter what i am there for her,even if the middle of the night she can wake me if she needs to talk.thanks again.

Casperlady - 05/05/2008 18:00

Firstly i havent gotten through all thess posts but i am shocked by what am reading. Anon i really feel for you what those 4 men did to you was nothing short of barbaric. I hope you went to the gardai but i understand if you didn't. Liam - this is the 21st century-women should be able to wear what they want. Just because your'e hungry does that give you the right to steal food from a supermarket when you don't have money on you. Diana i think your comments have been the most appalling i hope you are never on the jury of a rape case. I being 21 would love to have the figure to wear a short skirt( by short i mean just above knee level not those skirts which are more like belts). In order to get your husband you have to be able to attract men first but also be able to reject those who aren't suitable. Just because a woman looks sexy does not give anyman the right to touch her. We are not animals we are not a dying breed that needs quick repopulation. And it is certainly not just about the way a woman dresses. One of my friends was studying nursing over in london now my friend is a big girl so she doesnt wear revielling or sexy clothes she wears clothes which cover her and yet she was raped by a friend. If you say no then no one has a right do do anything to you. what about little kids who are raped i suppose they are looking for it too? Cop on to yourselves and wake up no one desrves that. No one deserves to be treated as if they are just an object by raping someone you destroy their lives.

florance - 07/05/2008 04:34

thanks for all the advice.to date she talks to me about her feelings all the time.i even get a short sharp cuddle from her unexpectidly.she wont go to the councillor yet and now in light of hearin on the news where a older fella got off a rape charge because he didnt know the girl was younger at the time of consent.my daughter now feels this slime ball will get off too and she will get the blame.however she still questions herself.sometimes saying i am not to blame,and other times she tells herself she is to blame.please god soon she will clarify it all and get the help she needs.i am delighted she is talking a lot better about it now to me at least its to someone hopefully a step in the right direction.thanks again.

florance - 07/05/2008 04:45

barbie86,thanks for your suggestion sorry didnt reply sooner.you mentioned online forums for rape victims could you tell me how to link up with this site?i think it may help her a great deal to talk it out with others who have found themselves in similar situations.its stressful on the family here trying to deal with the mood swings.esp the younger one who cant understand why his older sister whom he looked up to initallly is now cranky with him for no reason.or why she is crying sometimes.its than i find it testing cause i have to hide the facts from the young one who sometimes doubt my alliby.

barbie86 - 08/05/2008 14:48

Hi again florance, It's great your daughter is talking to you about how she feels; this is a step in the right direction, and will help her articulate her feelings, and take some of the weight off her shoulders. So this is something very positive. There's a bulletin board that you can access through Truth About Rape: truthaboutrape.co.uk/index2.html There are several people on here sharing their experiences. You should also be able to find lots of survivors forums by simply doing a google search: type in something like 'rape survivors' 'rape forums' etc. Some are better and more supportive than others. Your daughter could also set up a thread on a health site like this if she wanted to: there will be people like myself who will be more than happy to share their experiences and try to help if they can. The feelings of 'was I/wasn't I to blame' are totally normal: sometimes, even though I know things weren't my fault, I can't help thinking 'what if I'd done x or not done y' etc. It's pointless, but it's human nature! And very soon after an attack, it's normal to blame yourself. Like I said in another post, there's a weird comfort in thinking 'well if I hadn't done x and y it wouldn't have happened'. It's scary accepting it wasn't your fault as it makes you realise there are some nasty people out there, and that it could possibly happen again. It sounds to me like your daughter is dealing with everything pretty well so far. It was a long time before I could talk about my feelings and experiences, and I've only really put everything behind me recently: 6 1/2 years after the first rape, and 4 years since the end of an abusive relationship. It takes a long time for the emotional scars to heal, and talking about everything is the first big step on the road to recovery. Stay positive, keep listening, and if your daughter does want to start a thread on here, I'll be happy to chat :-) And if you want any more advice, I'm here :-)

florance - 08/05/2008 23:07

hi barbi86,thanks for your recent post ,its a great help,i will mention it to my daughter and hopefully she will see the support it can help her with and also take some of the heat off me i mean in tearms of trying to have the answers for her at the right time etc.i never experienced this before and struggle to always do and say the right things,hoping iam not misguiding her.thanks so much for your support it means a great deal.i will let you know what the outcomeis,thanks again.

Sophie - 06/06/2008 18:09

Hi Florance, I have just read your posts and my heart goes out to your daughter. I'm not sure if you saw my posts at the start of this discussion (I was originally 'anonymous' but that all got far too confusing) but I too was raped about three years ago. What Barbie says is absolutely true- your daughter just needs to know that you are there for her. I never told my Mum and I still wonder whether or not that was the right decision. I eventually told two of my best friends and it made them feel uncomfortable, so they wouldn't talk about it. Not talking about it is probably the worst thing that can happen - but being forced to talk about it is also not going to help. Just knowing that you are there for her and willing to listen will mean the world to her. Rape is a very lonely thing and while you may not understand what she is going through, you can listen. It sounds like you're giving her a huge amount of support and she will be very aware of this and will gradually learn to lean on you more and more. Don't worry about saying the right or wrong thing - there isn't really much that you can say other than to reassure her that you are there for her and as I said, it sounds like you're already doing that. I wish you and your daughter the very best, Florance. It will take time for her to learn how to deal with this, rape is a very, very hurtful thing to happen. Even three years on I find it difficult to say the word but life does move on and she will learn to trust men again. I have really just said what Barbie already said but I just wanted to let you know that I am thinking about you and your daughter and if you have any questions or worries, I will try to help you in the best way that I can.

kissey - 29/07/2008 19:07

a woman who flirts should not be blamed for rape. its a disgrace to think that woman cant go out for a night out with their mates and then one of them is raped. thats disgusting.

florance - 31/07/2008 23:16

hi sophie and all,sorry didnt visit this site recently,didnt have much to go on recently.my daughter has now come to the stage of having told her close friends,they are supportive of her.the only problems now is that she works in the local shop for the summer before she heads to college and he goes in there,she is so disturbed by this and some times gets her friend to serve him when she is on but she feels he makes a big fuss about his girlfriend in front of her and keeps watching her could she be just imagining this?she still feels its her fault she says if i didn't ring to meet and chat with him this wouldnt have happened.and she thinks she looked for it .its hard i keep telling her to have met up with him to talk gave him no right to even try such an act on.she was in a half frame of going to the gardai but on hearing of a case on the radio of a rapist who got off the charges she now wont go so i will wait til she is ready. She has recently started going out to discos again and i was delighted that she made this break thanks to her friends,but i was shocked one night when she came home and told me what she had done,she was at the disco last w/e seen this guy there with his girl friend and walked up to him to give him a slap. her friends pulled her back,she said to me i dont know what came over me when i saw him i just wanted to hurt him.its not at all like her she was always a quiet natured girl never causes problems and helps others alot so it was completely out of context her behaviour that night, Its hard trying to find all the answers if only i could convince her to go to the proper authorities and get it sorted.

Sophie - 01/08/2008 17:34

Hi Florance, I really really feel your daughter needs to get out of that job as soon as she can. The fact that he still goes there knowing that she works there shows that he has no remorse over what he did to her. I realise it may not be financially possible for you to do this but perhaps you could suggest to her that you will give her a small allowance to keep her going until she finds another job? I can only imagine what it must be like for her seeing him all the time. It makes me sick to my stomach just thinking about what that must be like. As for her lashing out on him, I can understand what she must be feeling. Rape makes you feel every negative emotion you can possibly think of and anger plays a huge part. But while slapping him may make her feel better at the time, she's still going to feel exactly how she did before. Has she said anything to you about talking to someone about this? It would be terrible if a scumbag like him made her into an angry person. I know how she feels about not wanting to go to the Gardai. Unfortunately a lot of women don't get the justice they deserve in the courts. And while it would be great if she does eventually decide to report him, I think the most important thing right now is that she gets the help she needs. I wish I had given counselling more of a chance as I feel it really helps people deal with their anger and self-hatred. Instead I can't even talk about it to those I love the most and while most of the time I'm OK, I still have low points. The people in this forum know far more about it than I will ever tell anyone in person! So I really do think the sooner she gets counselling the better. Try to gently bring up the possibility again and see how she reacts. If you're surprised at her actions at the night club I'm sure she is too and maybe she'll be more ready to talk to somebody professionally about what she's going through now. Keep in touch Florance, Sophie.

christine(KBQ71041) - 01/08/2008 17:35

hi florence/ sorry to read about what happened to your daughter. she should go to the gardai, not every rapist gets off free. and this girlfrined of his she should no better as to be going out with him as to what he has done to your daughter. i really feel for you, but yes she did right by going up to him and trying to slap him-it's her way of say you B for doing this to me/ this is not the same as what your daughter went through, but years ago i was coming home from a hen's party with my sister in law, and this man grabbed us both from behind, he robbed our bags, pull my sister in law to the ground, we screamed for help as we were on a few doors away from her father home, we got to the house and we called the guards, we couldn't find this man, but a few weeks later we found out that he was targeting woman and would jump on them,. i had found out that i was expecting and then with all the trauma i went through from being mugged i lost our child, i was devastated and my husband and some other went in search for this guy, he has since moved out of the area and never attacked another person again.

kissey - 02/08/2008 12:31

hi florence i have just read sophie mail, she is right , your daughter must get out of this job, to me he is a total B especially that he goes into the shop were she works, its like he is rubbing her noes in it all, and yes she should go and seek professional help. try and talk to her, or maybe her best friend will help you talk to her. so sorry again

florance - 04/08/2008 00:28

hi again all,thank you for the feed back it is a good help. sophie,thanks for your reply. yes it would be great if she would get out of that job and i feel you are right he is only rubbing her nose in it but she said she will stay there til september as she is out of there then cos she is out of town for college. thank god. i would give her an allowance but she is getting a wage and its more than i could give her. she is trying to pay her insurance tax etc. i do give her some extra and dont take any money from her even though she has offered so many times. i just say when your rich you can help me out then. i have been on to her to get the support, and also go to the gardai, but she hasnt made any positive move in that direction yet. i dont know if i should ask again. would she feel i am pushing her? it would be great if she would. its not fair that the law is not more harsher on these thugs, but now as i have learned the age of sexual consent is lowered to 16 this would have been the age of my daughter than,and looking at what happened to her and her innocence ,and self blame its no wonder this kind of thing is not taken more seriously.

florance - 04/08/2008 01:00

Christine, i am sorry to hear what happened to you and your husband and on the loss of your baby as a result of the ordeal, thats just horrible. i can only imagine what you must still be suffering. i am glad that at least you have peace of mind knowing that he is gone from your area. if i could get her to report it but she says what if they say it was my fault, what if he gets off and she is accused. these are the questions that prevent her from going forward. she blames herself so much for it. if i hadnt called to talk to him,if i had only not got in the car with him etc...but i didnt think he would do this to me. i trusted him. so its a hard case to crack. and yes she has changed in personality now, takes every thing up the wrong way and is flighty. i have to be so careful what i say to her and even explain what i mean. everyone in the house has picked up on her attitude. but i will try again to empower her to seek support of authorities. i do feel she has made a little progress since though,by telling her friends. his girl friend had been told to get away from him if she had any sense. she replied so many have told me this but he takes care of me and we are living together now and every one just wants to split us up they just envy us.

florance - 04/08/2008 01:11

Kissey thanks for your reply,and again to all of you. that might work about getting her friends to talk her into reporting it. i will find out which girls she told and work on it from that angle. thanks for that suggestion. i just want that fella to feel the same pain she is suffering, but most of all i want my daughter back. the happy, good natured,one we once had. i know she is torn apart inside and some times she puts on a front but forgets and can snap for little reason.

KISSEY - 05/08/2008 22:13


barbie86 - 08/08/2008 18:07

Hi florance, sorry to hear you and your daughter are having a tough time. I agree with Sophie that she should maybe try to find another job. The thought of having to serve or even be near one of my attackers makes me feel physically sick, it must be tremendously hard for her. I know she obviously needs to earn a living, but it might be an idea for her to see if there's any other jobs going near by that are less likely to bring her into contact with him (a ladies clothes shop, for example) I can understand that you want her to report this man, but I also very much understand why your daughter does not. Firstly and most importantly, she is simply not ready to make a report, with all that it involves. She clearly hasn't come to terms with the attack yet, and also still very much blames herself, both of which will make reporting the attack difficult if not impossible. I hate to say it, but it often takes a very strong and seriously thick-skinned person to report a rape. I finally decided I wanted to report my ex around 3 years after the 'relationship' ended. I felt I was strong enough to deal with anything, even disbelief. I was wrong. The male officer I spoke to told me I had no case, no evidence, and patently didn't believe me (or had a twisted idea that he was giving me a rehearsal for court or something). He sat and watched me cry, tears and snot streaming down my face, in a glass room where members of the public could see me, without even offering a tissue. Humiliating to say the least. This might sound extreme, but very often women will have to face disbelief and little or no sympathy before they even get to court. If the case does make it to court, the victim will then have to tell her story to strangers, face her conduct being questioned etc etc. It can be soul destroying and you need to be 100% sure you can cope with it mentally, otherwise the effects, especially if a conviction is not secured, can be devastating.

kissey - 08/08/2008 18:57

HI barbi thats disgusting to think what that male officer made you go through. why didnt they give you a female officer,. males are all the same, they stick up for each other.

barbie86 - 11/08/2008 18:57

Hi kissey, Unfortunately there can be a lot of prejudice as far as rape is concerned. I did explain further, but half my post wasn't posted unfortunately. The problem with rape as far as the police and the courts are concerned is that in many cases it is simply a case of one person's word against another. In England a lot of evidence is needed for a case to even make it to court, let alone secure a conviction. This is why I'd always advise victims and their families to think things through very carefully before reporting a rape. Going to court can be very traumatic and a victim must be ready to cope with all that this entails, including the very real possibility of not getting a conviction. Only the victim will know what is right for her/himself; some would hate themselves forever if they didn't report, others wouldn't be able to cope with a court case, no matter how good the chances of conviction were.

kissey - 20/08/2008 22:07

hi florence how is your daughter, i hope she is well

Richard James - 08/03/2009 21:03

Women should not be blamed for rape if they flirt or wear revealling clothing. However, it should not be denied that flirtatious behaviour and revealling clothing do inspire sexual excitement in men, and some men (a small percentagbe of men) will feel impulses that they do not not chose to control. It is up to society to provide effective punishments that will increase the likelihood that morally weak men will chose to control themselves. I realize that it might sound harsh to some readers, but, as a male myself, I can see merit in bringing back some form of flogging, applied as humanely as possible, (in addition to time in prison) as a deterrent to sex crime for men. The effectivenss of caning in keeping rates of sex crime low in Singapore and Malaysia provides support for what I am saying. The thought of receiveing such strict discipline would help men to chose to control themselves in that the anticipated intense physical discomfort assoicated with lashing would be enough to outweigh the anticipated physical pleasure associated with the cirme Moreover, providing some form of caning, whipping, or strapping for non-mentally ill men who sexually abuse women would also give women the sense that justice was being done, send the message that sex crime will not be tolerated, and promote respect for women.

buzz - 09/03/2009 15:46

Sounds like a great idea but unfortunately the pc brigade would have something to say about that, and also there are probably some sick perverts out there who would enjoy the punishment.

bubbleboo - 01/04/2009 16:36

The only problem with that is that rape is not done because the men are turned on. It is not about sex, it is about control. Rapists usually commit these crimes because they feel out of control, for example in a relationship if a man is raping his girlfriend then it is probably because he is not comfortable with being equal with his partner and abusing her allows him to feel in control.

I think it is a disgusting crime. I think the rape crisis network do FANTASTIC work for a free service. It is not a womans fault if she appears sexy to a man, it is ridiculus to suggest that flirting is a bad thing to do. If men can do it and stay safe and in control of who touches them when, why can't we?!

SAMMI - 03/04/2009 10:31

there are different scenarios in a lot of rape cases and they need to be viewed differently. Not all rapes are committed by sexual deviants.

If certain women dress and act like hookers is it any wonder then that men treat them as such. Friend of mine told me he was out with his mates the other night and a young girl wearing a tiny skirt bent over and was wearing no knickers! What kind of signal is this sending out to men.

Anonymous - 03/04/2009 11:42

"Women dress and act like hookers-is it any wonder then that men treat them as such" - who do you think you are making such a denigrating comment? "Hookers" are paid for CONSENSUAL sex - so rape is not relevant here. Rape is NEVER NEVER justified. What, you think men are so poorly socialised, badly brought up and regressively evolved that they somehow have not achieved a basic control over themselves?? Would you cop yorself on. That attitiude insults men as much as women. It is well recognised that rape is about POWER. Bubbleboo has it right. It is a power crime and furthermore 50% of rape is done by someone KNOWN to the victim - not by a stranger ina dark alley, so underdeveloped that he is unable to control a basic urge which is the basis for socialisation.

buzz - 03/04/2009 11:43

Sammi it doesnt matter what way women dress, that does not justify the act of rape. NOTHING does.

Sophie - 03/04/2009 18:08

Sammi, are you seriously saying that if a prostitute is raped then it doesn't count as rape? If they say no to a client or any man to that matter does that not count because they sell sex for a living? You say if someone acts and dresses like a hooker then it's not surprising they're treated like one. As Anonymous said, treating someone like a hooker means paying them for consensual sex, they have every right to turn someone down and not be raped.

Admittedly there are a lot of promiscuous, 'easy' girls out there. But they're 'easy' because they want to be, because they give consent to a high number of sexual partners. They have just as much of a right not to be raped as anyone else in this world, what they wear is immaterial.

And 'not all rapes are committed by sexual deviants'? What? Does that mean some people who rape are actually well-to-do members of society? You have no idea how insulting that is.

bubbleboo - 03/04/2009 22:25

thank you for the support guys. being a SURVIVOR of rape not a victim it is comforting to know that other people out there understand that rape is a power crime not an urge by some man who cannot control the fact that he wants to...you know with a woman. I personally think that the men who commit these crimes do so because they cannot help the mental order to control a woman.

and as a survivor I think that it is also fair to say that it should be taken into account that MEN are not the enemy here, it is men who have an illness which leads to this behavior. It may be hard for people who have relatives or friends who have been subject to this awful, awful crime to understand that the people who commit these crimes are more than likely ill themselves. And i respect that, but I do think that it is important to realise that unless we as a society acknowledge the fact that mental illnesses are not dealt with accordingly in this country, then we can never expect a change. A girl I know who suffers from a mental illness was placed in an institution/hospital ward (they do not deserve the recognition of being an institution) where she was in a ward with a man who was a convicted rapist but who pleaded innocent due to insanity. She was subsequently followed into the "supervised" womens toilet by said man and assaulted. The main issue here is not that our society has rapists, but that they are completely, utterly not dealt with in a proactive, rehabilitative manner.

I have been recieving counselling for years because of my assaults, however I think that the overall message is that people like me need to be strong enough to encourage the funding etc for places like the Rape Crisis Network of Ireland. I could not have even contemplated living a normal life,or even living at all, had it not be for the counsellor that I see for free (HSE listen up) and I would love to do some sort of fund raising for these fabulous people.

Again, thank you for your support. Anybody that reads this and needs some sort of support I urge you to at least contact your local rape crisis centre. Honestly, they DO help.

Richard James - 04/04/2009 16:56

Unfortunately, the high levels of testosterone in males can result in testosterone-related crimes involving sex and violence among men who do not choose to control themselves. Unfortunately, this means that women can be vulnerable to abuse by men who are strangers as well as men they know and trust. Some men who commit such crimes are mentally ill men who need mental health treatment; however, many men who commit such crimes are non-mentally ill men who have not made the moral decision to control their animal impulses. These men are responding to their most basic physical level impulses and, therefore, it makes sense provide a very basic physical level punishment that works on the biological programming of all mammals to avoid pain. Many people are too quick to see lashing as uncivilized but it could be seen as something that promotes civilized conduct in men in the same way that even potentially dangerous circus lions behave in order to avoid the sting of the liontamer's whip.

Whipping can also be seen to be fitting punishment for serious crimes against women in that a man being whipped is stripped down, made to endure both physical and emotional distress, and is helpless to resist. Whipping also helps to even out the physical power imbalances between the genders in that a man who attacks a woman will know that he can end up badly physically hurt, just as if he attacked a man. Men use their physically stronger bodies to abuse women so why not take advantage of the fact that the male body strength makes men particularly physically well suited to endure the rigours of whipping? Is society really doing all it can do to protect women if society is not prepared to give some consideration to bringing back some form of whipping --whether it be a leather strap or rattan cane applied to the buttocks or a cat-o-nine tails applied to the back? (And to answer a previously asked question about some men enjoying such punishment, I would point out that legally applied corporal punishment is always too painful to be enjoyed by anyone who receives it.)

SAMMI - 04/04/2009 18:39


Dont get on your high horse and attack me over my comments. I NEVER MENTIONED rape being justified in any way shape or form. The comment i posted was what a man had stated. A man's OPINION on what they see as a social problem where men have stated that they see women dressed like hookers. a MANS not mine. that they in turn have NO RESPECT FOR SOME WOMEN. A Man's opinion, not mine.

What, you think men are so poorly socialised, badly brought up and regressively evolved that they somehow have not achieved a basic control over themselves??

Yes actually there are men out there in society who are exactly like that. They have no respect for women and treat them as sex objects. there are probably more rapes happen than get reported. i didn't say this gives them the right to rape anyone. Also not forgetting there are incidences of male rape also.

Does that mean some people who rape are actually well-to-do members of society? You have no idea how insulting that is.

Yes actually there are. and there are many true life stories that show this, because they have the power to get away with it.

at one time Priests were classed as respected. And it has been proven that there have been many high ranking police officials politicians and lawyers involved in sex scandals and sex assualts on children.

You may not acknowledge that there is a dark side in sociey but that doesn't mean it's not still there.


SAMMI - 06/04/2009 12:13


NO that is NOT what i said and if you re-read what i said, it doesn't even say that. And i find it insulting that it was taken totally out of context and twisted around.

you have taken what i said out of context. To make it CLEAR. It indicates a lack of respect by certain types of men in society towards some women. i reiterated the comments made by men who, whether it's classed as right or wrong, have a lack of respect for certain types of women given the way they dress provacatively lose their inhibitions through excessive alcohol consumption and use their sexuality to play games with men. Which is why i said there are many different forms of rape. due to differing social structures and up-bringing. And OBVIOUSLY this doesn't imply that on account of this rape can be excused.That would be a stupid assumption to make.

Rape is never justified. Or excusable under any grounds.

And yes there are so called 'respected' members of society that are involved and have been involved for centuries in activities that we would view as abhorrant, deviant, base and sickening.

buzz - 07/04/2009 10:35

As a survivor, I agree that men who prey on women (and children, as I was preyed on) ARE sick BUT we need to be very careful with this school of thought people. If we believe that these men (and lets not forget some women too!) are sick, then there will always be bleeding hearts who jump on the band wagon and insist of rehabilitation more than punishment. I do not believe that ANYONE who commits a sex crime should ever be trusted again, and no amount of "rehabilittion" will help them but inevitably, these people will be deemed fit for society under pressure from the "holy Marys" and will be released into society to do more damage to more women or children.

I have long maintained that a group should be set up by people who have been victims of attack by those who have not served their full sentence or who are out on bail. They should take our justice system to the European high court and hold it responsible. If these sick people were kept where they should be (in prison) and were not out on bail or out for good behaviour, then a lot of these attacks by repeat offenders could have been avoided.

Sophie - 07/04/2009 14:21


I am sorry if you feel what you said was 'twisted', but looking back at the reaction to your message, it seems Buzz and Anonymous also took offence.

This is why I was upset by your comments:

Firstly you said 'not all rapes are committed by sexual deviants'. It doesn't matter what their job is, be they a priest, a teacher or a charity worker - if somebody is a rapist they most certainly are a sexual deviant. However by saying not all rapists are sexual deviants this implies that some are actually good people - they're not.

You said: "If certain women dress and act like hookers is it any wonder then that men treat them as such". This was your own comment, not one made by a man.

When commenting on what your friend said about a girl not wearing any knickers, you said 'What kind of signal is this sending out to men.' Again, your own comment, not somebody else's.

If you feel your message was 'twisted' then you need to be a bit more careful about your phrasing, because despite your later posts, your original comment comes across very badly and very insulting. You may think I'm over-reacting or as you told Anonymous 'getting on your high horse' but remember you are speaking to people who have ourselves been raped. By all means say what you feel, but please be more careful about how you say it if you think you were misunderstood.

bubbleboo - 08/04/2009 09:16


I agree with you. I never pressed any charges against my offenders for personal reasons, however I do know quite a lot of people who have been raped/abused, who went to the guards or the courts and did not get justice. This is a disgrace. also repeat offenders who were let out on 'good behaviour'-they already behaved so badly that they ruined some child/womans/mans life so badly that they will never forget it. how can they say their pleases and thank yous in prison and the government says 'oh ok then, off you go' and lets them loose on society again??! Crazy. There should be a group developed to support the victims of repeat offenders and those who did not get justice and I do believe it should be brought to a European, not Irish, commitee of some sort who can sort this out. It is a disgusting, life destroying crime and the Irish government have NOTHING to say on it. They would rather spend money on building roads than a centre for victims of sexual assault.

NME - 16/02/2012 12:01

Has anyone ever sued the Minister for Justice having been a victim of someone who has been released before the end of sentence for whatever reason OR out on bail?

buzz - 16/02/2012 14:36

Hi NME see my post from 2 years ago - I thought the same! I am  not sure if anyone ever has, imagine it would be a landmark case if they did. And I certainly think its time someone did. Remember what happened to little Sarah Payne in Sussex? She was abducted an killed by Roy Whiting who had served only two years of a five year sentence for the abduction and rape of another 8 year old girl. How can the state justify letting a monster like this out to attack again? Her parents disn't sue the state but they campaigned for the introduction of "Sarah's Law" which would inform parents and schools if there was a registered sex offender in the area. As far as I know, its still on a trial basis in some areas of the UK.

purple - 17/02/2012 22:33


the justice in this country is shite, a woman raped, a teenager raped, a child abused, there absusers get away with it, any am who rapes a woman , child or a person abuses a child should be locked up, no trial, no justise, no jury.

Angel - 21/09/2012 01:45

I think it is very important that we need some way of seeing a child in trouble. None of us seem to be able to cop it. I know there is an awful lot of secrecy and shame for the victim and I know in my case I managed to carry on being abused without anyone's knowledge. However when I was waiting for my abuser to come in his car at night - I wished with all my mind that someone would see what was going on. I even hoped that the guards would pick me up for soliciting. When I was in the car I remember so well looking constantly towards the window praying that someone would rescue me and I could never understand why God didn't come. How many children are in this position today? Surely a young girl standing in a doorway at night for an hour and then seen to be getting into a car should be spotted. Or a girl coming out of a building and going around the back of it crying her eyes out should be spotted. Or a girl who has stayed the night under a tree should also be spotted. All this happened to me and I was in an orgaisation that regularly did patrols yet no-one seemed to be around when I needed them. I think as a society it is imperative that we become aware of things like this happening.

Nickname: to be used for all future posts.
Notification: Tick this box if you wish to receive e-mail notifications of further posts on this topic