Was swine flu really a hoax?

  • Niall Hunter, Editor

You know the swine flu pandemic is a hoax, don’t you?  Oh yes (pause for self-satisfied cough). All dreamed up by drug companies and other vested interest groups (and they are nearly always "vested") to feather their own nests.
 
And of course the conspiracy theorists, sorry I mean expert commentators and bloggers, are right. Swine flu was a complete hoax, designed simply to keep drug companies rich and public health officials busy, to give the media something to write about and to give us all something to debate around the water cooler.
 
In fact, it’s probably all the media’s fault. Let’s face it, pretty much everything these days is.

Perhaps Rupert Murdoch could tell us more. Was he part of a cabal that planned the greatest public health hoax of all time?
 
I wouldn’t be a bit surprised. (Conspiracy theorists say that a lot. They call it "proof".)
 
Yes indeed, swine flu is a conspiracy on as grand a scale as the 1969 moon landing (filmed in a Hollywood studio, you know); the JFK assassination (Killed by Lyndon Johnson, the Pope, J Edgar Hoover, de Valera or whoever else you might care to mention ) and Princess Di’s death (it’s obvious her parents-in-law,or perhaps Camilla Parker Bowles, had her bumped off).
 
Let’s get real for a minute. So swine flu was a hoax? Tell that to the families of the 22 people in Ireland who died as a result of it

The official world death toll of 14,000 is regarded as a gross underestimation of the real incidence of the infection.

The Council of Europe and the WHO are to examine claims that the danger of swine flu was exaggerated under pressure from drug companies who stood to profit from and outbreak of swine flu.

The WHO would be due to assess its handling of the pandemic in any case, but it now faces accusations that it was essentially part of a worldwide conspiracy to fan the flames of a pandemic that didn't really exist.

However, when you think about it, it doesn't really make much sense that the world's main health protection body would simply invent serious diseases.
 
The fact that the swine flu outbreak is receding seems to have fuelled the conspiracy theories.
 
It’s a case of being wise after the event, which is a luxury people running and planning health services cannot always afford.
 
The Council of Europe is now to debate a resolution that accuses drug companies of leaning on public health officials worldwide about the risks of swine flu.
 
Dr Wolfgang Wodarg, head of health at the Council of Europe, accuses drug firms of organising a campaign of panic which encouraged the World Health Organisation to declare a pandemic when the H1N1 virus emerged last spring.
 
He has to date not provided any proof, as far as I can make out, for these claims.
 
He says the pharmaceutical industry has influenced scientists and government agencies and needlessly exposed millions of people to unknown side-effects of insufficiently tested vaccines.
 
Taken to its logical conclusion, such an argument would suggest that that Governments should have ignored the swine flu threat.
 
Unfortunately, this really would have needlessly exposed millions to serious illness and death. 

Scare stories of harmful effects of the H1N1 jab have tended to be interwoven with the current conspiracy theory about how Governments dealt with the pandemic.
 
Nobody is denying that the swine flu vaccine, indeed any vaccine, does not come without a risks of side effects or even, very rarely, serious long-term effects. And, as it is a new vaccine, the full picture of side effects from the H1N1 vaccine will not emerge for some time.
 
However, the benefits of the vaccine, as with most vaccines, have been calculated to outweigh the rare chance of serious side effects occurring.
 
But let’s for a minute grant some credibility to the pandemic hoax theory.

This would presuppose that Governments and public health agencies around the world were, last spring, not really interested in dealing with a newly-emerged virus that posed a potential massive threat to world health.
 
Until, that is they were goaded into action by the pharmaceutical companies.

Even if this scenario were to be taken on board for a minute, the next logical question is, what would be the "quid pro quo?"
 
What exactly would have been in it for Governments and health agencies in facilitating the mass supply of vaccines or the distribution of anti-flu drugs for no good reason? Do they need to be pressurised to do their jobs and protect public health?

What were the drug companies going to do for them in return? This is another part of the conspiracy theory that is light on proof or logic.
 
Claims of conflicts of interest have also been made, and it is true that there are people who advise both drug companies and Governments.
 
However, the WHO has said numerous safeguards exist to manage possible conflicts of interest. So is the WHO, the world’s main health organisation simply lying about this?

Probably not.
 
The fact is that until Governments achieve the wherewithal to manufacture pharmaceutical products themselves, big companies are going to do so, and will continue to make money from this.

And while the system is by no means perfect, the manufacture and distribution of drugs is subject to controls and regulations.
 
While capitalism has seen its reputation somewhat tarnished lately, we still live in a capitalist world, with all its faults.

And multinationals will continue to make money, and indeed some stood to gain from the swine flu pandemic. This, however, does not prove that the whole outbreak was manufactured or that Governments decided to deal with it purely on the basis of pressure or lobbying by pharmaceutical companies.

 

Also, whether we like it or not, drugs and medicines usually help sick people or prevent disease. That’s what the H1N1 vaccine was for - to prevent a potentially deadly virus spreading.

 

That's a bit boring I know, and not very "bloggy", but it's pretty much true most of the time.
 
Pandemic prediction is not an exact science. Even the most knowledgeable experts cannot tell how widespread an outbreak will be or whether a virus will mutate to provide an even deadlier strain of an infection.

Last year, when swine flu emerged, there was no way of knowing how serious the outbreak would be, how many waves of disease would take place and whether the virus would mutate.

We still do not know for sure whether H1N1 infection is going to continue to wane or worsen.
 
To be fair, there was some “we’re all going to die” hysteria created last year over swine flu, a reaction largely due to pretty much everyone being in the dark as to how deadly the pandemic would be.
 
And there were perhaps some over-the top predictions from health officials in the UK about the need for more mortuary space and in Ireland, that one quarter of the population might get swine flu.
 
Yet these statements were made in good faith by health planners whose job was to prepare for the worst.
 
There is of course, always a need for accountability and it is perfectly legitimate for people to question the actions of Governments, major agencies and multinational companies.
 
There will obviously be a number of formal reviews of the response to the swine flu pandemic in Ireland and abroad.

These may well conclude that the outbreaks could have been handled better. None of them, unless there is a huge "smoking gun" somewhere, is likely to conclude that the swine flu pandemic was essentially a hoax or a "false pandemic".

For a conspiracy theory to be proven you have to presuppose that many leading people in large organisations all acted in unison for less than pure motives. The logistical and practical likelihood of this being the case is very small. That's why conspiracy theories seldom become fact.
 
A question that should be put to the conspiracy theorists is whether it is OK for Governments and health agencies not to do their job properly and thereby put the health of the public at undue risk.

One cannot help but speculate that many of the same people now crying “swine flu hoax" would have been marching with placards if Governments and health agencies had turned their backs and taken no action on a worldwide public health threat.

Comments

Char - 19/01/2010 10:34

Your article is severely flawed!! In reality, you simply base the truth upon what the media tells you and what Earth's authority figures tell you.

You trust Earth's authority figures because they are powerful and you think they are trustworthy. Rupert Murdoch?? Are you serious?? He is the biggest Republican propaganda machine on earth. You should do some research on this area before writing such ridiculous claims.

Hearings in this case have not even begun and if you have done any research, dig deep enough you will find damning evidence that PROVES this swine flu was a hoax.

Call yourself a journalist !!! All I hear is REPEAT REPEAT REPEAT REPEAT REPEAT

louiscoyne - 19/01/2010 11:02

I would just like to say that i think this is a very well written article and covers most of the bases and in particular i would strongly agree with your final statment - "One cannot help but speculate that many of the same people now crying “swine flu hoax" would have been marching with placards if Governments and health agencies had turned their backs and taken no action on a worldwide public health threat."

Some people just need something to march / complain about and why not focus on the government no matter what they have done in the situation. We put them there!!

Char - 19/01/2010 13:01

Whilst I completely agree with you that there are many people who need something to complain about or march about isn't that their right to.

We elected them to Dail Eireann to implement our wishes; nowhere were they ever given a mandate to work for the elitist EU Bilderbergers! They took an oath to uphold our constitution on entering that office!

Most people assume that the government is telling the truth whereas in reality most people have no idea what is going on and do not want to admit such an obvious fact to themselves!! Critical issues such as what the government is really doing behind the scenes are blown off as being non-issues.

The swineflu was a hoax, and those who deny it can't handle that they fell for such ludicrous claims and will deny it to their death. I respect their right to do so.

"A question that should be put to the conspiracy theorists is whether it is OK for Governments and health agencies not to do their job properly and thereby put the health of the public at undue risk."

Did they not put people at risk by implementing a vaccine that was untested???

Drago - 19/01/2010 14:10

Quick question Char, it's a yes or no answer question, Did anybody die from Swine Flu?

buzz - 19/01/2010 14:37

"The swineflu was a hoax, and those who deny it can't handle that they fell for such ludicrous claims and will deny it to their death. I respect their right to do so."

You obviously have very little "respect" for such people if you write off their beliefs as "ludicrous claims" and say that they "cant handle that they fell for" it.

Jamie - 19/01/2010 16:01

Char, do you believe that the moon landing was filmed in a studio? Or that the 9-11 attacks were organised by the american government? Or that the world is controled by 50 people who attend a annual meeting?

You should read David Icke, he believes the swine flu vaccine was some mind- control drug.

Char - 19/01/2010 20:25

Drago. YES. But people die every year from regular flu. Buzz. I believe I said ''I respect their right to do so." Not really the same thing, I just respect their RIGHT! Jamie, I have read almost all of David Ickes books, I also had the pleasure of meeting David last year. I dont think that the swine flu vaccine is or might be a mind control drug but I am certainly researching the RFID claims and how this could be used as a mind control mechanism.

buzz - 20/01/2010 10:31

Char wat you said was (and I quote),

"The swineflu was a hoax, and those who deny it can't handle that they fell for such ludicrous claims and will deny it to their death. I respect their right to do so."

You respect their right to do what? Fall for "ludicrous claims", deny something "until their death"?

Like I said, there is no "respect" in that statement.

Like people who say , "I am not racist but..."

"I am not being mean but..."

"I shouldnt say this but..."

Talk is cheap.

Drago - 20/01/2010 12:06

so Char, you do agree that there is such a thing as Swine Flu, and it has killed people, now, could you please point out the "serious Flaws" in the article. I'm not having a go at you, I'm interested in hearing the other side of the coin, this is afterall a discussion!

buzz - 20/01/2010 12:52

Just had a browse through the RFID site there... As well as conducting a witch hunt against the pharma industry and all things synthetic, they also sport links to books such as "Cancer Can be Cured" and how to ditch diabetes in 35 days. Just so we are all on the same page...Laughing

Char - 20/01/2010 21:10

Buzz, yes, I respect their right to "Fall for "ludicrous claims", deny something "until their death"?" - They have every right to and I respect that, some people are just not ready for the truth, its part of their cognitive system to deny it, others are more evolved and able to accept or inherently know that things are not always as they seem. I seriously did not mean any disrespect by this comment, I called the claims ludicrous, not the people! It is simply beyond some people to accept as the mind has trouble accepting such things especially when the people put there to protect them are the ones controlling the agenda.

Drago, Yes, I believe there is such a thing as swine flu but I also believe that it was a manmade virus that didnt quite work as well as 1918 epidemic of Spanish influenza which wiped out 20,000,000 people. Perhaps a much more powerful force than you or I stepped in to help us out! I appreciate the fact that you are open minded to the other side of this. To be honest right now I dont have the time to go through all the flaws so I will point out the main ones. Where do I start?? The benefits of an untested vaccine or any vaccine ... I believe vaccines contain decomposed protein such as that which is taken from pustules on sick animals or putrefied eggs mixed with deadly drugs such as carbolic acid (phenol), mercury, formaldehyde (formalin), etc. Decomposed proteins can cause botulism, salmonella or other types of body poisoning.. Vaccines against measles, children get measles etc etc yet most children still get these infections??? The same parents who wont let people smoke around their children will put poisonous materials into their children!!Can you define any benefits derived from the swine flu vaccine? According to the law the benefits must outweigh the risks. Each of the vaccines use a mercury derivative as a preservative and the danger of mercury is well documented Pandemic??????? Oh deary, thousands upon thousands of people die yearly from the regular flu. Should this not be classed as a pandemic too??? The symptoms of 'swine flu' are pretty much the same as regular flu and it is easy to call everything 'swine flu' to increase the official numbers. You didnt even need to see your Dr, diagnosis by phone.. The vaccine was patented in 2008!!! The government is simply a puppet in all of this and probably had no idea what was going on or were told they had no choice but to accept it. I know it seems hard to believe but the governments, Big Pharma, the WHO and public heath 'protection' agencies are all controlled by a very small group of people whose goal is to control the entire system and keep the power contained to a few. Follow the money trail, see who really is on the board and who is getting the financial gain. However, Its not always about money, control and power is what they want, and they want you vaccinated/chipped and on a database.

Doing a little "connecting the dots" doesn't make you a conspiracy theorist, it just shows you can think for yourself. Stop letting the media tell you what to think! Some of us buy into panic and hype, and some of us just go with the facts.

buzz - 21/01/2010 10:17

Wow Char thank you for showing us your true colours! The only way you can get your head around the FACT that people may have opinions that are different to yours is by telling yourself that they are less evolved than you. Evolution is a biological fact, it is not subjective, nor is it confined to those who agree with your alternative claims.

Finbarr - 22/01/2010 13:54

The statistics that you quote for swine flu death and illness are not put into any perspective.  How many people get the flu in Ireland every year?  How many people die from flu every year.  The numbers are meaningless without a comparison.

Char - 23/01/2010 16:32

Buzz, evolution is not merely physical. I was speaking in terms of spiritually and consciously.And some are more evolved than others. When people close their minds to something they would be less evolved.

Finbarr:

Swine flu deaths Worldwide:14,286Swine flu deaths Ireland : 22CDC estimated that about 36,000 people died of seasonal flu in the US alone. World Health Organistation: Worldwide, about three to five million cases of severe illness, and about 250 000 to 500 000 deaths from seasonal flu. Ireland: Information only available broadly i.e Diseases of Respiratory System - Total recorded deaths by CSO: 3,978

lynda - 23/01/2010 19:28

Let's hope the higher archy don't create diseases in order to profit from them .

Bob Dylan once said .

" They build hospitals , fill them with people , then give them diseases of their own creation . "

Char - 24/01/2010 11:24

(NaturalNews) In conjunction with NaturalNews, the non-profit Consumer Wellness Center (www.ConsumerWellness.org) has publicly offered a $10,000 reward for any person, company or institution who can provide trusted, scientific evidence proving that any of the FDA-approved H1N1 vaccines being offered to Americans right now are both safe and effective. Money mouth Money mouth

 

batch - 24/01/2010 16:33

buzz, evolution is not a fact, it is a theory and like all other theories (conspiracy or otherwise ) not proven

buzz - 25/01/2010 09:49

So now evolution is a spiritual concept. I am sorry I thought we were having a discussion based on FACT.

Anonymous - 25/01/2010 10:15

The "hoax" was a product of conspiracy theorists who possibly have either too much time or imagination on thir hands. However, I do think panic was escalated by certain media sources. But then paper will not refuse ink - I could read my horoscope in the same media and believe it had I chosen to do so. So in certain respects people who choose t beleive the scare stories make that choice themselves. I just had a very quick look at the David Icke website - found it absolutely hilarious. Very clever of him to set up something that so many poeple will buy into though.

Jamie - 25/01/2010 10:34

Batch, I think you'll find evolution isn't a theory and has plenty of proof.

buzz - 25/01/2010 11:47

Well batch whatever it is, one thing it is certainly NOT is spiritual...

Char - 25/01/2010 20:24

Knowledge is the key to enlightenment. Perhaps in a few lifetimes Buzz you will understand what I mean.

Anonymous, I am glad you at least had an open enough mind to look at the DI site. Yes, some of it is hilarious and more of it is factual and extremely informative and not just the propoganda of the main stream media. Unfortunately this is where the average person gets their information from. It can be very hard to accept that our leaders are corrupt and evil. The hoax, if you dig deep enough was a product of greed and control by these leaders.

Jamie - 26/01/2010 10:36

Doesn't David Icke think that all the major world leaders are actually giant lizards from another planet dressed in human skin? Not exactly a man I would believe

buzz - 26/01/2010 11:33

Knowledge is the key to enlightenment. Perhaps in a few lifetimes Buzz you will understand what I mean.

Wow Char do you really have to resort to personal insults in order to get your point across? People would respect you a lot more if you accepted that there are many varied views and opinions on certain issues, rather than trying to talk down to those who do not hold the same view as you.

The fact remains that evolution is not a spirititual concept. You can accuse all those who disagree with your views on conventional medicine of not being as "evolved" as you but this has very little basis, if any.

Anonymous - 26/01/2010 12:00

Hi Char, I had another - albeit very quick yet again, look at that site and propaganda is exactly what it seems to be and some of it of a very damning nature were it to be taken seriously, tho' propaganda to what agenda I don't really have time to try to figure out - although I am sure it would be very interesting. Oh with all the banking and planning scandals of late, I'm sure very easy indeed to understand that our leaders (whom the democratic majority elected it must be said) are corrupt and motivated by greed and power. Yes, Jamie, there is a reptilain conspiracy theory in there along with illuminati/"zionist" paranoia theories. Does the reptilian theory remind anyone of a "V" SCI-FI series from their youth?? Didn't come across any "alien ruler" theories but you never know. You really should take a look though - it's very very funny.

buzz - 26/01/2010 15:34

Char I am so glad you have admitted of David Ickes material that "some of it is hilarious". Below are some of the statements that this man has come out with in the past:

But it is not primarily even about money. The bloodline families want people to suffer and die earlier than necessary as a way of culling the population.

(- of conventional cancer treatment)

What about the families whose lives are terribly damaged, if not destroyed, by what seems to be over zealous authorities - having a child forcibly removed, on what are seen to be false grounds, or unfairly by a bunch of men in dresses and wigs with a language all of their own patronisingly and seemingly arbitrarily wrenching children from their loving and caring homes and it is all done behind closed doors - all too often by what seems a process designed to ruin families.

- (of children being lawfully removed from situations where they are being abused, exposed to drug use or being neglected)

'The groundbreaking work of Dr. Bruce Lipton says its attitude and environment, seldom our genes, that dictates the quality of our health. These hidden agendas that control our state of health reside in the subconscious mind and Dr. Lipton says a little re-programming can work

and THEN states:

'A mouse brave enough - or foolish enough - to take on cats and other enemies may be the stuff of cartoons. But now, a real-life mouse has been developed that is so fearless it will take on even the scariest of foes. A 'switch' in the brain of mice which enables them to sense or smell danger has been discovered by scientists in Japan.'

Like I keep saying, the body is a computer.

-So which is it David? Are genes important or are they not?

 Whether there truly are "holes" and "doorways" between dimensions of reality, whether there may exist kidnappers or interlopers from other planes of being, whether swirling vortexes may snatch up unsuspecting men and women and send them spinning into another Space-Time continuum,

um.....

Of course one needs money to subsidise such quackery, and this of course comes from selling the following:

"The David Icke Guide to Global Conspiracy"

"Tales from the Time Loop"

"Alice in Wonderland and the World Trade Centre"

"Children of the Matrix"

...and so on!

Char - 26/01/2010 22:48

Buzz, seriously, why are you on the defence?? There was no malice meant in that statement. To me, in my opinion that is FACT. You cannot understand spiritual enlightenment unless you are evolved spiritually and it takes lifetimes to get there. It is your own ego that saw that as a personal insult. I never said David Ickes work was hilarious, I was talking about the posters on the forums. There is hilarity on every forum. .. ..In regards to what you point out on Davids site, someday you will understand. David Icke does not care if you believe anything he says nor do I. I just find it sad that humanity is blinded and programmed so much to believe all the lies that have been pulled over their eyes to blind them from the truth. Of course he makes money, but any intelligent person would know that there are alot of overheads etc in doing any of his work. He travels around the world doing talks and sells out all the time at his shows. He has booked a second date in Brixton academy this year due to popular demand and regularly speaks at Oxford University, so that says something.To get back on track now, you must have missed my previous posts, here I will state the facts again:Swine flu deaths Worldwide:14,286Swine flu deaths Ireland : 22CDC estimated that about 36,000 people died of seasonal flu in the US alone. World Health Organistation: Worldwide, about three to five million cases of severe illness, and about 250 000 to 500 000 deaths from seasonal flu. Ireland: Information only available broadly i.e Diseases of Respiratory System - Total recorded deaths by CSO: 3,978(NaturalNews) In conjunction with NaturalNews, the non-profit Consumer Wellness Center has publicly offered a $10,000 reward for any person, company or institution who can provide trusted, scientific evidence proving that any of the FDA-approved H1N1 vaccines being offered to Americans right now are both safe and effective. Money mouth Money mouth

Anonymous - 27/01/2010 09:43

Good examples - very funny to most of us but damning and even potentially dangeorus in some aspects if peopel were to choose to believe it.

Like I say, very clever of him to set up something that so many conspiracy theorists are ready to buy into.

Drago - 27/01/2010 11:45

just out of interest Char, where do you stand on David Icke's claims about Lizard People?

Anonymous - 27/01/2010 12:15

I too find it sad that some people so blinded and indeed to so taken in by the lies as to have the wool pulled over their eyes so thoroughly that they think they can be smug and almost arrogant about it. Now come now - "Naturalnews" is not a reliable scientific source of medical evidence any more than a tabloid newspaper. The CDC and CSO figures are the ones that have some evidental backinG to them. The "Consumer Wellness Center" which incidentally is listed as an alternative medicine site does not have any relevance to Ireland or even the EU as far as I know.

buzz - 27/01/2010 12:41

So Char I see now you are talking out of the other side of your mouth and saying that you meant no offence? Well I can only assume that that is your idea of an apology so thank you and well done.

I see you are still choosing to ignore the fact that evolution is NOT a spiritual concept - what have you to say on this? Insisting that it is spiritual at very best makes your posts luaghable and at worst highlights how much you have actually been brainwashed by this lizard freak.

Now you admit that you find David Icke hilarious...so does this mean that you do NOT respect his "findings"? Or do you, as I suspect, wish to cherry pick only the points you like and dismiss those that are blatantly ridiculous.

buzz - 27/01/2010 12:43

To me, in my opinion that is FACT.

Char, an opinion by its very nature is NOT fact. Opinions differ from one person to another based on projected views, conditioning, experiences etc. As such opinions are subjective. They are not objective therefore they are not fact.

Char - 27/01/2010 14:04

Like I previously said, it's your own egos that allow you to take these things personally. The  faults you think you see in me are purely reflections of your own shortcomings.

And, come now, does Natural News really need to be a 'reliable scientific source of medical evidence' for someone to come forward with evidence??? Undecided What has that to do with anything??? Ten thousand dollars!! If I was as sure as you guys I would be researching like anything to get that reward, but we all know it can't be proven..

Razor - 27/01/2010 15:57

Of course the swine flu was a hoax. What else could it possibly be called? This brainwashed article states “However, when you think about it, it doesn't really make much sense that the world's main health protection body would simply invent serious diseases”.

Doesn’t make sense to whom? Of course it makes sense! It’s called opportunistic capitalistic profiteering! Besides it is absurdly incorrect to suggest W.H.O. is the world’s main health protection body. That’s utter naive nonsense. It is nothing of the sort.

W.H.O. is the directing and coordinating authority for health within the United Nations system. A different animal all together!

Recently the UN has been shredded by allegations of kickbacks, billions of dollars in graft in the oil-for-food scandal, the rape of minors in the Congo sex scandal, and a total lack of accountability. In other words, its corrupt!

There is not a single shred of evidence in existence today that scientifically supports the myth that H1N1 vaccines reduce mortality from H1N1 infections. No clinical trials have ever been conducted on the effectiveness of H1N1 vaccines. To be fair neither the Pharmaceutical companies nor the directing and co-ordinating authority (WHO) have never claimed there was!

So why did we pay €88,000,000 for this vaccine when there is zero scientific evidence to suggest it does ANY THING to reduce mortality rates from H1N1?

Anonymous - 27/01/2010 16:58

Does Natural News really need to be a 'reliable scientific source of medical evidence' for someone to come forward with evidence?

Actually YES it does - that is the entire point. 

It has everything to do with the fact that this is a discussion on a medical and by obvious association, scientific topic.

David - 05/02/2010 22:51

The "pandemic" is nothing but an overhyped mild dose of the flu.

How many healthy people died from swine flu?

Every year sick people die from influenza. Many cancer patients, aids patients etc. succumb to it, much more than from this strain. Are they in the news because they died of influenza?

No of course pharmaceutical multinationals would never do anything untoward in trying to make a buck. We all know that the WHO (who describes itself as working "in partnership" with the pharmaceutical industry) would never be unduly influenced or fooled. Someone should tell those "conspiracy theorists" in the European Parliament to stop wasting their time.

purple - 07/05/2010 23:32

hi

no i never thought for a moment that swine flu was a hoax, so many died from it,

Char - 10/05/2010 19:23

People die every year from the regular flu. This is like banging your head against a wall :/ Anyone who takes the swine flu vaccine without researching it, quite frankly deserves to have their genes messed with. Anyone that puts ANYTHING in their body without knowing the ingredients and the LONG and SHORT TERM EFFECTS are plain daft in my opinion.

buzz - 11/05/2010 10:42

"Anyone who takes the swine flu vaccine without researching it, quite frankly deserves to have their genes messed with."

Hmmm...and anyone who believes that someone desrves to have theor "genes messed with" because they took preventative measures to protect their health oviously has NO regard for ANYONE healthy OR ill and therefore should not be taken seriously.

Remember that most people who die from seasonal flu do so because they are already vulnerable (ie the very young, very old or immunocompromised). Swine flu did NOT result in fatalities in such groups.

Char - 11/05/2010 13:44

Buzz, au contraire, I have regard for myself and my family.

I would NOT put anything into their bodies without thoroughly checking whats in it. Simple as. Swine flu did not result in many fatalaties at all, not the way it was hyped up by the media or the big pharmaceuticals.

Its the long term effects on your genes. And yes, frankly they do deserve it, if you cant even bother to read up what your pumping into your kids, its not great parenting now is it, or your sick relatives.. ..

doctors make people sick if you ask me.. I dont care who takes me seriously. I am just glad I didnt take the vaccine and whadyaknow I am still alive and still healthy and I was on the top list to get it. I told them to stick it in their own arms, my own Dr wouldnt take it..

Jamie - 11/05/2010 16:56

Char, I'm guessing you either grow your own food, or go around doing your shopping with a laptop googling the presertives and e-numbers to find out what effects they have on you and your childern.

Char - 11/05/2010 19:30

I absolutely grow my own food!!

I also have a list in my bag of every e-number which has been linked to any type of disease. Of course I do, this is my childs body, not a dump!!!

We do not drink flouridated water or use flouridated toothpaste, we  dont ingest MSG, aspartame, phenylanine, I would be here all day to list them off, but yes, I keep a list of the big baddies in my notebook in my bag. After a while you learn which brands and products to stay clear of. Any good parent would do the same.

buzz - 12/05/2010 10:03

Char there are plenty of good parents who are slightly less obsessive than you.

buzz - 12/05/2010 10:18

"Buzz, au contraire, I have regard for myself and my family."

Are you inferring that people who wish to PROTECT their child through immunisation do NOT have regard for their family? Please do not be so arrogant.

"I would NOT put anything into their bodies without thoroughly checking whats in it. Simple as. Swine flu did not result in many fatalaties at all, not the way it was hyped up by the media or the big pharmaceuticals."

And do you think they will grow up to do the same? I hate to tell you but they will most likely rebel against the mother who denied them sweeties and crisps occasionally and go the opposite way! I have a friend whose parents were told she was hyper when she was a kid. The quack doctor they took her to told them to take her off all the foods she was "allergic" to - meat, dairy, sugar, wheat. The poor girl lived on fruit and rice crackers for four years and was skin and bone! Naturally when she hit her teens she rebelled against the confines of this strict diet and started shovelling unhealthy food into her body. Her weight ballooned, her confidence suffered and she developed an ulcer. She's fine now and at a healthy weight but the point is she went through that phase of eating sweets and crisps all the time simply because she was DEPRIVED of them for so long and they became the forbidden fruit for her.

I agree that swine flu was hyped up, not by the pharmaceutical companies but by the media. Ever wonder why the housing market disappeared from the headlines when swine flu hit? Swine flu disappeared when the church child abuse scandal hit? The media will ALWAYS focus on the most negative issue.

"Its the long term effects on your genes. And yes, frankly they do deserve it, if you cant even bother to read up what your pumping into your kids, its not great parenting now is it, or your sick relatives.. .."

Sorry but that is, quite simply, wrong. Food cannot alter one's genetic makeup. So you think a child should suffer because of it's parents bad decisions? Do you think thats fair on the CHILD? Do you think THAT is the view of a good parent? Do you think a good parent is someone who is HAPPY to see a child suffer just so that their parent's are punished??? Bizzare what some people think are family values!

"doctors make people sick if you ask me.. I dont care who takes me seriously. I am just glad I didnt take the vaccine and whadyaknow I am still alive and still healthy and I was on the top list to get it. I told them to stick it in their own arms, my own Dr wouldnt take it"

Well...I didnt ask you and I disagree. I don't think anyone will take you seriosuly making sweeping statements such as "doctors make people sick". Of course, no doctor is God, and we should have a healthy respect for their limitations, and yes there are always going to be a few "bad eggs" in all professions but lets not allow that to take from the greater good that they do. It's great that you're alive to tell your story but that's not actually proof that the vaccine DOESNT work, you do realise that dont you??

Char - 13/05/2010 20:34

Thanks for the giggle. I laughed out loud reading that response buzz.

So caring about your childs health is considered obsessive??Hmmm Its a very simple process really, you educate yourself on the ingredients of whatever is going into their bodies, including vaccines. How hard is that with the power of the internet? Not really obsessive, just sensible. These are the same people who wont smoke around their kids. LOL If people immunising their children think they are protecting them I think thats arrogant! My child is very happy and he can still eat sweets crisps and chocolate, just not the ones laden with poison and frankly he is smart enough to know the difference himself as he was educated about these things.

I think any child that was taught the truth about MSG or aspartame or HFSG would be reluctant to eat half the crap their parents put in there body... and I think THEY would rebel against their parents for KNOWINGLY or ignorantly poisoning their own flesh and blood.. ... ah but that would be depriving them! Will you listen to yourself!!

I honestly cant believe you said that food cannot alter ones genetic makeup. Oh lord how can I have a debate with you when you obviously not researched any of this!! Have you any proof the vaccine does work??? I hear theres a reward out for anyone who can.. ..

Anonymous - 18/05/2010 15:41

You do not drink flouridated water or use flouridated toothpaste? How will you react then when your child suffers needless caries neccessitating otherwise unneccessary fillings or root canal treatment. Not exactly responsible parenting, is it?

Char - 18/05/2010 21:45

Anonymous, it is widely researched and scientifically proven that flouride causes fluorosis of the teeth and skeletal fluorosis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dental_fluorosis

http://www.fluoridealert.org/dental-fluorosis.htm

http://homepage.eircom.net/~fluoridefree/dental.htm

http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/diseases/fluorosis/en/

http://www.fluoridation.com/skeletal.htm

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fluorosis

Flouride is a by product of aluminium and is a waste product. Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.

My child has perfect teeth, absolutely perfect in fact!! If you are intent on being part of the discussion can you do some research first before making silly comments about something you dont seem to have any knowledge about.

buzz - 19/05/2010 09:58

"So caring about your childs health is considered obsessive??Hmmm Its a very simple process really, you educate yourself on the ingredients of whatever is going into their bodies, including vaccines. "

Au contraire char, being caring and being obsessive are very different and I believe you fall into the latter category. I suggest you educate yourself on how not to believe everything you hear and fall prey to earth mother tree hugging alternative crap type mongering. You are doing your children NO favours. Most people are aware of what ingredients are in vaccines. The difference between a caring parent and an obsessive parent is that a caring aprent will be aware of the most IMPORTANT ingredient - that is the active vaccine which will afford their vulnerable child protection. The obsessive parent will conveniently forget about the active vaccine,a nd convince themselves that the vaccine is simply the governments sly way of sneaking bucket loads of squalene and teratogens into our children (for no obvious reason). I would go so far as to say parents who do not get their children vaccinated should have their children taken off them. They are not fit to be parents.

"How hard is that with the power of the internet?"

Be careful of the internet dont believe everything you hear.

"These are the same people who wont smoke around their kids."

I dont think anyone should smoke around their children. That IS sensible. What's wrong with you???

LOL If people immunising their children think they are protecting them I think thats arrogant!

I dont think there's any "lol" in immunisation.

My child is very happy and he can still eat sweets crisps and chocolate, just not the ones laden with poison Oh riiight....he eats the "sweets and crisps and chocolate" that grow in the ground does he??

"and frankly he is smart enough to know the difference himself as he was educated about these things."

ah so children who like sweeties are stupid...... and you call other parents arrogant????

"I think any child that was taught the truth about MSG or aspartame or HFSG would be reluctant to eat half the crap their parents put in there body... and I think THEY would rebel against their parents for KNOWINGLY or ignorantly poisoning their own flesh and blood.. ... ah but that would be depriving them! Will you listen to yourself!!"

Um...I think maybe you should take your own advice and listen to YOURself...

I honestly cant believe you said that food cannot alter ones genetic makeup.

Well its fact. Deal with it. Genetic makeup is something that is intrinsic from conception, unless of course you imagine zygotes snaffling on hunky dorys and mars bars?????

"Have you any proof the vaccine does work???"

Well yes actually but you probably wouldnt be interested. You have a unnatural obsession with discounting conventional medicine and all things normal for some bizzare reason.

"I hear theres a reward out for anyone who can.. .."

Well now there's a surprise. Did they tell you that on one of our quack websites? Quackery anonymous maybe???

buzz - 19/05/2010 15:21

If you are intent on being part of the discussion can you do some research first before making silly comments about something you don't seem to have any knowledge about.

hmmmm....char I repsectfully suggest you take your own advice first!

buzz - 19/05/2010 15:25

Fluoride is a naturally occurring element. Please get your basic chemical facts right at least if you are to command any respect char

buzz - 19/05/2010 15:28

char do you filter your drinking water?

Anonymous - 19/05/2010 15:30

Char., you will not tell me or anyone else whether or not they can take part in a discussion. The flouride we use in water is of entirely different composition to the agricultural waste you refer to. But while we're on the subject of  making silly comments about something you dont seem to have any knowledge about, you exhibit a prime example of that when you post links, ONLY ONE of which is from a medically reliable, scientifically backed source but are predominantly from quack websites with no factual basis at all behind them. The one exception being the WHO website which is irrelevant to your point as it talks about EXCESS flouridation - very obviously a different thing to the flouridation of our water system for preventative purposes and as the website states, -  Ingestion of fluoride after six years of age will not cause fluorosis.

Char - 19/05/2010 20:23

Its completely impossible to have a discussion here with some people being so narrow minded, judgmental and uneducated.

Buzz, maybe parents who poison, oh sorry I mean vaccinate their kids, should have their kids taken off of them. But, the government says its ok, so it must be, ah jaysus, where to start!! If ye took the time out to research the ingredients and not blindly believe everything ye are told like good little sheeple ye might start to understand just what ye are doing to your children.

I am wasting my time here, you people are fast asleep and you seem to be happy to be that way.  Its such a pity you cant pull the wool off of your eyes for your childrens sake. I feel so sorry for you people I really do.

I will leave you with this because the robotic replies are getting boring and laughable. You could have a better more sensible debate on boards.ie and thats saying ALOT!!!

Facts do not cease to exist just because they are ignored.

Anonymous - 20/05/2010 09:48

Char, your insults do not lend any credibility to your points and nor does your laughable not to say arrogant assertion that parents who protect thier children from serious illness should have their kids taken off of them. You quite clearly are don't seem to be capable of taking on board the fact that many parents are quite capable and have done research on vaccines based on scientific fact and medical evidence and you clearly have a problem with your assertion bein challenged - so save your pity and condescension for those who actually need it. It's wasted and really rather laughable.

Medical and scientific facts do not cease to exist just because quackery would rather believe otherwise.

buzz - 20/05/2010 11:23

"Its completely impossible to have a discussion here with some people being so narrow minded, judgmental and uneducated."

I agree Char...which is precisely the reason why you should consider removing yourself from this argument.

"Buzz, maybe parents who poison, oh sorry I mean vaccinate their kids, should have their kids taken off of them. But, the government says its ok, so it must be, ah jaysus, where to start!! If ye took the time out to research the ingredients and not blindly believe everything ye are told like good little sheeple ye might start to understand just what ye are doing to your children."

No Char you are missing the point. Vaccinations work, THAT is why they are still used. If anything, there is huge unrest in this country at the moment (and who could blame us) after the government were caught with their grubby paws in the cookie jar and are now making the rest of us pay...so if anything people are NOT going to take the governments word on vaccinations. They are going to take the word of medical professionals who know what they are talking about.

"I am wasting my time here, you people are fast asleep and you seem to be happy to be that way.  Its such a pity you cant pull the wool off of your eyes for your childrens sake. I feel so sorry for you people I really do."

Yes you are wasting your time if you think that any of the sensible parents on here are going to listen to your broken down record about conspiracies and poisons. You can feel sorry for "us people" if you want...frankly I feel sorry for YOUR CHILDREN.

"I will leave you with this because the robotic replies are getting boring and laughable. You could have a better more sensible debate on boards.ie and thats saying ALOT!!!"

Excuse you Char but you have yet to answer any of the questions put to you directly. Seems like YOU are one not interested in (or perhaps not capable?) of debate???

"Facts do not cease to exist just because they are ignored."

So you've already said (as have other posters before you now that I think about it lol) and so we already know...but if my memory serves me well you are also the one who said a few months back that something became a fact simply because you BELIEVED it to be so! Smile Char, I wish there could be world peace, would you be so kind as to believe there is such a thing and then maybe it will become true?

buzz - 20/05/2010 11:24

Oh and still waiting for an answer to post 51...

Char - 25/05/2010 22:06

Anonymous, I am not insulting anyone. What bothers you from the words I write are a reflection of what most bothers you about yourself. I was indeed being facetious when I said that parents should have their children removed from them as it had been pointed out by a previous poster Buzz that he/she would.. Buzz: "I would go so far as to say parents who do not get their children vaccinated should have their children taken off them. They are not fit to be parents."Whats good for the goose is good for the gander no??

I just think we should have an INFORMED choice, you are obviously mis-informed and I can only try to help you see the truth, its up to you what to do with it. Yes, I have pity, not be misconstrued with being condescending but yes its obviously and most of all sadly wasted here.  Buzz, Whilst it may be true that fluoride does occur naturally, there are different types. But saying “it’s natural” is really irrelevant to the issue of adding it to drinking water. Uranium occurs naturally. Arsenic occurs naturally. So what? We don’t add them to the water just because they occur naturally. They don’t mention that the fluoride that they add to the local water supplies is actually toxic industrial waste, a byproduct from a chemical fertilizer manufacturing process. And, do I filter my water? Well, you dont think I drink the Irish tap water now do you. That would be silly, there is fluoride in the water!! I dont feel I can give any more time or energy to this discussion, the posting is becoming increasingly negative . I would like to make the point that I am not trying to force any of you to do anything. I am just trying to inform and educate The truth does scare people and if there isnt an official seal on the information I give it -  is rapidly dismissed as disinfo or a 'conspiracy'. You are mature enough now to decide what to do with that information.

buzz - 26/05/2010 10:29

"What bothers you from the words I write are a reflection of what most bothers you about yourself"

I will be the judge of that, thank you and what bothers me is your blatant arrogance and ignorance. I am perfectly comfortable with my own convctions thank you.

You speak about "reflection" -  I think perhaps the word you're looking for is deflection...as in, you are trying to deflect attention away from your own weak arguments.

buzz - 26/05/2010 10:39

"I just think we should have an INFORMED choice, you are obviously mis-informed and I can only try to help you see the truth"

It is you who needs to see the truth,t hough I suspect you dont want to! 

"Yes, I have pity, not be misconstrued with being condescending but yes its obviously and most of all sadly wasted here."

The only reason you have pity is to make yourself feel better when your arguments fall seriously short of being logical or making any sense.

  "Buzz, Whilst it may be true that fluoride does occur naturally, there are different types. But saying “it’s natural” is really irrelevant to the issue of adding it to drinking water."

But you were the one who said it was MANUFACTURED. I was simply pointing out that it is NOT manufactured, it occurs NATURALLY. Does fact not make sense to you???

 "Uranium occurs naturally. Arsenic occurs naturally. So what? We don’t add them to the water just because they occur naturally."

I know that...but like I said, I was simply correcting you as you MISTAKENLY said that fluoride is manufactured....and it isnt.

"They don’t mention that the fluoride that they add to the local water supplies is actually toxic industrial waste, a byproduct from a chemical fertilizer manufacturing process."

Propbably because thats not true?

 

Anonymous - 26/05/2010 12:21

"What bothers you from the words I write are a reflection of what most bothers you about yourself". Char I could equally say the same about you and it would mean as much. I am glad to hear you are being facetious. There is a big difference beteen parents, having reearched the facts, ewho decide to protect their children from serious illness and parents, taken in by scaremoingering who deliberately neglect doing so.

Yes, we should have an informed choice (and you are started to should liek someone else who is quite the opposite of what you claim) and you can be absaolutely clear, despite your misunderstanding, that I am absolutely and most clearly informed and educated by scientific fact and medical evidence on this and if anyone could be helping any one to see the truth it is Buzz (if you don't mind me saying so Buzz, you seem of a more scietific background than myself) who could help you see the truth - provided of course you want to see it. So save your pity for those who need it,

As I already pointed out, the flouride added to the water is a different type to that byproduct from a chemical fertilizer - to attempt to claim both are the same is tantamount to scaremongering.

buzz - 27/05/2010 09:21

Well my last post was edited to near extinction but it also made the point that FITERING your water does NOT remove fluoride...only distilling it does. Oh well!

Char - 27/05/2010 13:08

"One former advocate has spent a year investigating fluoridation. Don Mac Auley, a 32-year-old Dublin-based dentist, became concerned after a number of patients told him they were worried about the possible health risks of fluoridated water. They wanted to know why, when the rest of Europe was so strongly opposed to fluoridation, Ireland was virtually alone in endorsing it........

...Mac Auley decided to appeal his FOI response to the Information Commissioner. Earlier this month, after a wait of almost one year, he finally received answers to some of his questions, answers that have confirmed his fears.

The fluoridating agent used in drinking water here is hydrofluosilicic acid, a component of toxic waste imported from the fertiliser industry in Holland. Hydrofluosilicic acid is a non-biodegradable, highly corrosive substance, contaminated with a number of heavy metals including arsenic and lead.

Every year, the Irish government pays hundreds of thousands of pounds to the Dutch company that produces this acid, a substance which would otherwise cost vast sums of money to dispose of safely.

According to reports by the Environmental Protection Agency in 1997, nine per cent of all water supplies exceed the recommended levels of 1mg of fluoride per litre of water. These and all other exceedances are illegal and impermissible.

Despite all the evidence which now exists about the dangers of fluoride to health, in 35 years of fluoridation, no Irish government has ever carried out a public health survey on its effects, even though it is required to under the 1960 Health (Fluoridation of Water Supplies) Act. When asked in a recent interview as to why no such surveys had been carried out, the Minister for Health, Michael Martin said that the population of Ireland was ``too small''.

Don Mac Auley is now convinced that the Irish public is being denied the truth about water fluoridation in this country."

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fluoride-in-our-water-are-we-brushing-with-danger-381516.html

Copyright Irish Independent, 2000

I rest my case

Anonymous - 27/05/2010 15:44

Char, do you have the link to the publication (from the original source, obviously - newspaper articles do not refuse ink, even if they are more than a decade old) you quoted above? Furthermore, any interview with a health minster could not be recent if it involved Michael Martin - he has not been minister for health for years. It is interesting however that ONE dentist out of thousands and out of many many thousands of medical professionals overall, is concerned about flouride effects - just one.

Char - 27/05/2010 20:53

The fact that Micheal Martin was Minister for Health is even more alarming, this has been going on for years now!!!! Its not one dentist either, its 42 actually, and these are the ones who have the guts to speak out!!And, I am not going to do your research for you, thats up to you, Dr McAuley can be contacted and he will gladly forward you a copy of the FOI information he received. .. ...but I have kindly done this for you. http://www.gov.ie/committees-29/c-health/20030710-J/Page1.htm#1http://www.imj.ie//Issue_detail.aspx?issueid=+&pid=1967&type=Contentshttp://www.voice.buz.org/mailarchive/msg00026.htmlhttp://www.alacrastore.com/company-snapshot/ALBATROS_FERTILIZERS_LTD-3892985

Anonymous - 28/05/2010 10:14

Thank you for sending on the government commitee report and the IMJ link. The former is quite lengthy and I'll need some time to go through it. However, voiceireland is neither medical or scientific - it is simply a website and lets be honest, anyone could set one up. And alacrastore is a company website.

Incidentally, I wasn't asking you to do my research for me, I was simply asking you to back up your own assertions. So, 42 dentists out of how many in the country?

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