Abuse report - a catalogue of horror

  • Joanne McCarthy

Children lived in ‘daily terror’ of being beaten over more than five decades in State-run institutions, and sexual abuse was widespread, according to the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse report, which was released today.

The report outlines in harrowing detail the emotional, physical and sexual abuse inflicted on young people who attended schools and institutions from 1940 onwards. More than 100 institutions and religious orders, including the Sisters of Mercy, the Christian Brothers and the Presentation Brothers, were investigated over the last decade.

Fine Gael said the report of the Commission discloses "an appalling litany of sexual abuse, physical brutality and neglect of children perpetrated in institutions throughout the State for decades."

The inquiry covered the period from 1936 to the present. Howwever, the complaints of abuse came mostly from the period 1936 to around 1970.

Sexual abuse was endemic in boys' institutions, according to the report, involving such abuse by some staff members and some older boys.

Sexual abuse was not systematic in girls' institutions, although girls were subjected to predatory sexual abuse by male employees (of the institutions), or visitors or in outside placements, the report states.

The report also highlights the level of emotional abuse that disadvantaged, neglected and abandoned children were subjected to generally by religious and lay staff at the institutions.

Witnessing such abuse of other children, as well as witnessing beatings, had a distressing impact on children, the report states.

The Commission found that 'schools were run in a severe, regimented manner that imposed unreasonable and oppressive discipline on children and even staff'.

According to the report, the safety of children was not a priority for the Christian Brothers.

The approach of the religious orders to the inquiry was described by the Commission in 2003 as ‘adversarial and legalistic’. The report says that the Christian Brothers Order was defensive in the way it responded to complaints, and claims the order fails to accept any congregational responsibility for such abuse.

The order today said it apologised openly and unreservedly 'to all those who have been hurt either directly or indirectly as a result of the deplorable actions of some Brothers, or by the inaction or inappropriate action of the Congregation as a whole'.

The report has strongly criticised the Department of Education for its handling of complaints about the institutions concerned. The Department dismissed or ignored complaints of child sexual abuse and dealt inadequately with them, it says.

Education Minister Batt O'Keeffe extended his sympathy to those who were subjected to abuse while resident in industrial schools.

One in Four, a charity which supports people who have experienced sexual abuse and violence, said the Commission has not been able to deliver on all the promises made at the time of its establishment.

Survivors are disappointed that all their accounts have not been heard, and that the alleged perpetrators have not been named, it said.

“We know that what the survivors most want is a public acknowledgement of the suffering they endured, and to ensure that other children are safe,” said One in Four’s executive director, Maeve Lewis.

According to One in Four, the most vulnerable children were condemned to live under a regime where sexual, physical and emotional abuse and neglect were commonplace.  Even set against the harsh child-rearing practices of the time, their treatment is shocking, it said.

“The church’s attempt to deny the magnitude and scale of the abuse perpetrated will be decimated by this report.  It is difficult for the vast majority of religious who never harmed children to live with the legacy they have inherited, but their response must now prioritise the needs of those who suffered so greatly,” it said.

One in Four believes that Irish child protection services are still completely under-resourced, and children at risk cannot be confident of intervention and support.

Some of the key findings of the report include:

* Physical and emotional abuse were features of the institutions. Sexual abuse occurred in many of them.

* Large-scale institutionalisation was an outdated response to a 19th century social problem.

* The deferential and submissive attitude of the Department of Education towards the orders running the institutions compromised its ability to carry out its duty of inspection and monitoring of the schools.

* The brutal industrial school system thrived in Ireland while better systems of care were developed in England.

*The Department knew that violence and beatings were endemic within the system. "Pervasive, excessive and arbitrary punishment" permeated most of the institutions.

*Children who ran away were subjected to extremely severe punishment. Severe corporal punishment was rife in the boys' institutions: "Prolonged, excessive beatings with the implements intended to cause maximum pain."

*Pervasive, excessive and arbitrary punishment permeated all boys' instutions. There were restrictions on corporal punishment in girls' schools, but in some of these schools 'a high level of ritualised beating' was routine.

*Sexual abuse endemic in boys' institutions. Predatory sexual abuse of girls by male employees or visitors but it was not systematic in girls' institutions.

*Substantial level of sexual abuse of boys ranging from improper touching and fondling to rape with violence. Perpetrators allowed operate undetected for long periods in institutions.

*Cases of sexual abuse managed with a view to minimising risk of public disclosure. Perpetrators were protected.

*Response of authorities was to transfer offenders to other locations, where they were often free to abuse again.

*Nuns' attitudes and mores made it difficult for them to deal with abuse reports in institutions.

*Children in institutions suffered neglect. They were frequently hungry and food was inadequate, inedible and badly prepared. Malnourishment was a serious problem, and sanitary provision was primitive.

*Disturbing levels of emotional abuse revealed. Some children forced to participate in beatings.

*Complaints by parents not properly investigated.

The report's recommendations include that a memorial be built to the abuse victims and that the lessons of the past should be learned. It is important to admit that the child abuse occurred because of failures of systems, policy, administration and failings of senior personnel.

It says steps should be taken to reduce the risk of such failures being repeated, and stresses that the religious congregations need to examine how their ideals became debased by systemic abuse.

It recommends that counselling and educational services should continue to be provided to ex-residents and their families. It says, 'Children First', the national guidelines for the protection and welfare of children, should be uniformly and consistently implemented throughout the State in dealing with allegations of abuse.

Fine Gael spokespersons on Children and Education, Alan Shatter and Brian Hayes, said it was scandalous that even at this stage in the context of the information disclosed, that some religious congregations, such as the Christian Brothers and the Brothers of Charity, while acknowledging that some abuse took place in institutions
for which they were responsible, deny congregational responsibility for such abuse.

Details of the HSE's national counselling service for victims of child abuse are at...
http://www.hse.ie/eng/News/National_Tab/‘A_safe_place_to_be_heard’_.shortcut.html

The full report can be viewed at...http://www.childabusecommission.ie/rpt/pdfs/

The executive summary can be viewed at...http://www.childabusecommission.ie/

Comments

buzz - 21/05/2009 11:14

What about those of us who suffered abuse more privately, where the perpetrators were not teachers or priests. We should not be forgotten either. There will be no memorial plaque or apology for thousands of other survivors who carry the same tragedy with them throughout their lives.

Renovatio - 21/05/2009 23:13

As this is a health website I just want to start with this.

1 billion euro in health care cutbacks on the public healthcare system, much of which is going to cause suffering, torture and death to the children of Ireland today and those who are now adults having survived this evil abuse amongst all the others of this country.

Now we the public must pay 1 billion euro for the actions of rapists, murderers and molesters of the children of the past, our present adults, by the religious moralizers who still claim to be the messengers of god and demand our obedience. The largest organized child molestation and torture ring in the history of mankind. And still in control of our schools and children today.

Every penny and more is owed to these victims but I looked at my payslip today and dropped it knowing that the taxes deducted represented not the saving of children's lives in hospitals but the payment for rape of children by the moral elite of this country. It is covered in the blood of innocent children. I am paying for this evil to have been done. To anyone reading this I urge them to look at their pay slips and know the truth. Look at the deductions and know that somewhere a child molester is laughing, protected by a religious order and our leaders, knowing he/she will never face justice, that a politician decided a collar should mean that no prosecutions should be brought or justice sought, that you are to pay for their crimes.

As if money could ever make it better. As is usual with this government they believe they can throw money at something to make it better and you are to pay directly for the actions of child molestors and murderers. You, not the government as is so often the statement (its your taxes directly they use) are being used to bail out not only the developers, banks, politicians, the HSE and anyone else who is part of their elite untouchable clique, but child killers and rapists.

Those who were victims in the past are taxpayers today. They are being forced to pay for their own abuse, rape and torture.

Those who are mothers and fathers today are to pay for those who would molest their own children.

This is Ireland today. This is what we have become as a country. This is not the past. This is the present. Without those being brought to justice in the courts this is our future. And the courts have been complicit in this crime. Next a blasphemy law is to be implemented at your taxpayers expense to protect the religious from offense. But it will not be an offense for the religious to have raped and murdered children. And pensions will/are being paid to those in the government institutions which turned a blind eye and even participated, paid by you. Today our politicians told us an immoral evil contract they signed 10 years ago could not be changed. If so Ireland never will. What have we left when it has come to this. Is this as low as this country can go or can we get even worse. I can clearly see more dead and abused children in underfunded hospitals and institutions today. That tells me we have only just begun.

buzz - 22/05/2009 11:24

First we bail out the bankers now we are bailing out the paedophiles.

Sister Maureen - 22/05/2009 19:13

CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY THE REPORT BY IRELAND'S COMMISSION TO INQUIRE INTO CHILD ABUSE

I am thoroughly saddened, disgusted and angered at yet another sweeping indictment of individuals and church authorities including the leadership of both male and female religious communities.

In 2004 it was the report commissioned by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops and now it is the commission set up by the Irish government and headed by High Court Justice Sean Ryan that has released the 2,600-page report, which capped a nine-year investigation.

It reinforces the conclusions many have come to in the United States, especially since 2002, that the problems of sexual abuse problems in the Roman Catholic Church have been both systemic and endemic over decades and generations in countries around the world.

It is not an American problem as some cardinals and highly placed Vatican officials argued a few years back. Neither is it caused by the presence of homosexually orientated men in the priesthood.

It is not a conspiracy by the newspapers in the United States or anywhere else or a conspiracy by special interest groups to bankrupt the institutional church.

And it is not the "Know Nothings" of an earlier era in the United States. No, it comes from within the institution not from the outside. The institution, the Roman Catholic Church as we know it, has done it to itself.  We have seen the enemy and it is us. As the American cartoonist Walt Kelly has his cartoon character Pogo say: "There is no need to sally forth, for it remains true that those things which make us human are, curiously enough, always close at hand.  Resolve, then, that on this very ground, with small flags waving and tiny blasts of tiny trumpets, we shall meet the enemy, and not only may he be ours, he may be us."

Or in its more abbreviated version, "We have met the enemy...and he is us."  

There is no sinister, worldwide plot to bring down the institutional Roman Catholic Church. The leaders at the top are doing the job very well with help from their underlings.  

Clericalism is the all encompassing problem in the church today, that widespread abuse of authority, that lack of accountability and transparency that the United States bishops promised in 2002 but which they have been short on delivering and in any case should have been practicing down through all these years anyway.

The all encompassing mantra that allowed, permitted and enabled this horror to happen in much the same way in countless countries separated by oceans and seas, was and is the widespread abuse of power and authority in the Roman Catholic Church starting at the highest levels.  

It can be see in the reports and documents coming out of the Archdiocese of Boston, Massachusetts beginning in 2002, in dioceses in California like the Archdiocese of Los Angeles and Santa Rosa and in investigations and reports like the Grand Jury Report on the Archdiocese of Philadelphia in 2005.  In states large and small across this country, no one diocese escaped unscathed because there were just too many victims.

This is why in Delaware all statutes of limitation regarding the sexual abuse of children were removed with the signing of the 2007 Child Victims Law which also includes a two year civil window for bringing forward previously time barred cases of sexual abuse by anyone, if it happened in Delaware.  In Delaware that window remains open for just over another month.

New Yorkers of all religious stripes and none are well advised to support the Markey/Duane bill on the sexual abuse of children which is now being debated. It is unconscionable for the Archdiocese of New York and the New York Catholic Conference to be opposing accountability and transparency in regard to childhood sexual abuse.

The Irish Report was done by governmental authorities unlike the 2004 report in the United States which was commissioned by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops and for that reason alone such figures should be considered suspect.

It is unforgivable that the Irish government actually made a deal with the institutional church to allow no prosecutions for these heinous crimes against humanity. It is equally despicable that the religious order known as the Christian Brothers brought suit and barred the release of any names of any of these known sexually predatory priests to the public. The decision by the Irish government not to prosecute perpetrators and not to names names should be rescinded immediately and the Irish bishops should be the first to demand such action because this was a deal brokered by the Devil himself.

It is immaterial whether abusers are living or dead. If the Christian Brothers religious community knew them to be credibly accused, if they had records in church files of these individuals molesting others over the years they should have made these names public for the physical, spiritual and psychological well being of those who were abused, raped, sodomized, etc.

How could they not think of the children before all else?

How could the institutional Roman Catholic Church think of the children before all else?

Sodom and Gomorrah suggest anything?

These crimes against children are in direct violation of and in contradiction to the United Nations Convention of the Rights of the Child to which the Holy See was an original signatory, notwithstanding the fact that no periodic compliance reports have ever been submitted by the Holy See.

Does this suggest a course of action that should be taken before the United Nations? I think so because what has been put before us are wanton, despicable crimes against children which are crimes against humanity. They should be dealt with as such.

Sister Maureen Paul Turlish Victims' Advocate____________

Sister Turlish is a Delaware educator and victims' advocate who testified before the Delaware Senate and House Judiciary Committees in support of Delaware's 2007 Child Victims Law. 

E-mail Sister Maureen Paul Turlish atmaureenpaulturlish@ yahoo.com

RoRo - 22/05/2009 19:57

To Renovito

Please post your letter by e-mail so it can be sent all around this country.  I used to be proud to be Irish now I hang my head in shame. 

bridie - 23/05/2009 06:04

It all feels so overwhelming , this evil truth that ireland is now Finally challenged to face and take responsibility for ,to break with the post hypnotic trance induced in early childhood by this religious patriarchal system and come out of hiding with our collective secrets ,we absolutely need to consider that its mostly Men (those protected  by rome )who have committed such crimes and men who represent our grandfathers ,fathers ,brother ,husbands,and sons,.who have perpetuated these crimes in the family home , (repeat patterns) if we are going to finally and sincerely house clean our home (ireland ) we really need to become honest ?Yes its high time the church was held accountable for past and present behavours and attitudes , but its even more important that the women of ireland take responsibility for the roles they have played in the support of this collective denial , We as women have been victims of tremendous abuse on every level  more that any other group of people in the history of mankind  and YET we still accept the unacceptable for ourselves and our children ??? this is the calling card for us women to become fearless now in our fight for truth, respect and justice , Because the church was above reproach it had permission it seemed, to do whatever they wanted with the people ,so too did such a patriarchal system afford permission to the father of the family to assumed to have the same power and control over his clan ?  so what i can see is that as a people we have allowed abuse and collectively turned a blind eye to the reality ,too afraid of the system, and the consequences of revealing our shame   we all knew on some level that we were all being abused , from the children to our mothers and we were conditioned to denial of these truths ,this state of hiding and pretending became the norm ,multi generational conditioning ,  now this defense no longer works and we cant hide from the truth anymore,  we are now free  to tell it like it is and was  , this reality has in itself created the perfect platform for us all to voice our secrets , validate our rage and heal our original pain .we are better educated that our mothers and grandmothers  more able to articulate our story/truth   and live in a more open minded time so its now up to us where we as a people go from here ? this is all part of the evolution of ireland and her people ,The first step needs to begin with Women being more proactive and assertive and collectively coming together to share responsibility for creating new safer environments for themselves and their children , we own it to ourselves and our children to be more aware of our rights and responsibilities, and to say no to any form of abuse (collectively ), and if our men cant protect and support our children  then we should not have any children with these men , children have the fundemental right to be safe protected and loved , what happens to us as children is never forgotton, society pays dearly for the abuse of children who grow up to be damaged people who sometimes want to damage others the same way, project their pain onto others , when we stop abusing men there will still be wars, when we stop abusing women there will still be wars but when we stop abusing our children there will be no more war ?? may the universal power of love shine on children always  thanks .tanya

Marsi - 23/05/2009 10:52

I hold the perpetrators fully responsible and therefore must bear the brunt of financial support for the victims. Why should the present day taxpayers have this responsibility? These religious orders made fortunes because of the hard labour of many of these children. Not only did they suffer horrific abuse but they worked as child slave labourers for these abusers.

The fact that this evil was done in the name of God is nothing short of blasphemy.

coco - 23/05/2009 14:46

There is no excuse for this systematic abuse. Lack of training or education is no excuse, anybody with any modicom of decency & moral right would have been above these debased practices of childcare.

terry - 24/05/2009 21:37

I have to agree wholeheartedly with the email from Renovatio. Like everyone else I too am utterly horrified and shocked at the amount of torture, horror, and sexual abuses carried out by these socalled men of the cloth. What a stupid discription!!!!

As for myself, I am a seventy three year old grandmother who was born into a catholic familly. I  thank God that my mother ( who was deserted by our father ) had the strength to take care for us, her five children, she was a truly remarkable woman. I think if I had been sent to one of those houses of horrer I would have taken my own life sooner than succumb to the attrocities that were perpetrated on all those innocents.

The cowardice of the then government to confront those in charge of such institutions, in my opinion, indicates just exactly WHO  was in charge, and I wish someone would/could explain to me the apparently inexplicable fear they had/have of the catholic church, those men in black. ( who all thought they were GOD ALMIGHTY) And some of them still think they are. One day they will have a rude awakening and the sooner the better.

I'm so glad to be able to say that about fifteen years ago I gave up  the whole christian thing, and religion in general. because from what I can make out, all they do is cause wars and hatred. I don't want to tar them all with the same brush, I believe there are a few good men out there, but from the small amount of history I have read, and documentaries I have seen on tv, ( and I'm going way back) they don't have a whole lot to be proud of. And no, I have never given up on my "DIVINE CREATOR", the one and only truth in life, and the one to whom I give all my love and gratude.

Having twelve grandchildren, with whom I have a very good relationship,  I'm sad to say, they are being brought up as catholics. I can't fault my children for this as that is the way I reared them, not knowing any better at the time. I hope some day, when they're old enough that they will see the light and abandon this practise.     

Anonymous - 25/05/2009 09:53

It's tragic and sickening at the same time. I cannot even read the report - I cannot even begin to imagine how thise children must have suffered.

RoRo - 25/05/2009 18:58

Let us also remember who was in government when the religious were allowed to get away with paying a fraction of the amount due to the victims, why, well they wear a collar don't they? And our government still cow-tows to them. Time for them to wake up and represent the people who elected them.

jcbd - 25/05/2009 19:43

I agree with every word and sentiment expressed by Sr Maureen Turlish. But could all of us stop for a moment ...... and reflect. What could I have done? What can I do now?

Marsy - 26/05/2009 00:03

When the people of Ireland forget the brainwashing of the catholic church that it is the one true church and the only way to God, then and only then will they mature as a people.  Remember 'special men chosen by God'? and we believed them?  If there is a God and the only way to him is through the catholic church then thank God I am an atheist!!   We should motivate ourselves like the pensioners did about their medical cards and march on the cardinal's mansion and tell him 'Out, out, out'.If Rome knew of these abuses let the pope send a personal message to all those poor abused victims and compensate them financially.  Our money built all the churches, bishops palaces etc., they belong to us not the church.  While we attend them and fill their coffers with our pledged offerings we condone the actions of the so called 'one true church'.    The Europen Court of Human Rights should be the arbitor of the treatment of the inmates of those appalling institutions, not the Irish Government who are mostly catholic and still too much in bondage to the church.  Wake up people of Ireland.   You wont go to Hell if you oppose the Church.

Aimee - 26/05/2009 10:53

Reading recent reports, its just too sad to think of the hurt that was inflicted on young people. But its not in the past, our children are still being abused by people in authority. It is still going on. Our children are being bullied at school, isolated and mentally tortured by pupils and teachers. My daughter is being bullied by a girl whose parents both teach in the school, and the mother is a known bully (learned behaviour). Many parents have made complaints about the teacher's behaviour over the years, but the school has obviously not dealt with it, as her bullying of students continues. When I tried to talk to the mother/teacher about the 'isolation' and 'belittling' of my daughter, her response was agressive and unhelpful, saying that she would not get involved, 'they should sort it out themselves.' This girl is openly and blatantly mean to my daughter but obviously feels that she can behave in whatever way she chooses because of her parents' position in the school.  Where do you go for help? These people misuse their positions of power, never looking into their hearts to see that they are actually damaging the students they are supposed to be encouraging. I fear that 'love of power' has replaced 'compassion' in their hearts.

lisann - 26/05/2009 15:46

In my town in the 50s child abuse went on in the local school. I was physically abused myself [although nowhere to the extent of the poor children in the report.] if you ever heard of the play "nothing happens in Letterfrack, everthing happens in Letterfrack" thats what is was like in my town. Everbody knew what was going on, the parish priest,the guards, the doctor,the public [I was brought to the doctor to access my bruises ]. I always remember the denials from the parish priest from the pulpit and the "cruel man". it was demeaning.

Anonymous - 26/05/2009 15:59

Hi Aimme, sorry for the short response, but on the bullying question, submit your feelings IN WRITING to the class teacher of both your daughter and the bully. Follow it up by phone call within a week. If there is no response, contact the B.O.M directly - again in writing and go to the Dept of Education if you have to.

Marsy - 27/05/2009 15:35

I went to a convent school run by the Sisters of Mercy where we were beaten daily for the slightest offence (whispering in class, wrong spellings, not knowing the answer to a question).  We were beaten with 'slappers' - pieces of wood, handcrafted by the local carpenter to order.   My father who was a garda complained to the reverend mother on several occasions when he saw bruising on my hands and legs.  His complaints though listened to were ignored.  In fact it made life more difficult for me as I was then ridiculed in front of the class for running home with 'tales'.  Once I was marched into the nuns' chapel, made to kneel at the foot of the altar and with the nun who beat me on one side and reverend mother on the other made to recite an Act of Contrition out loud for lying to my father. ..............and the Government wants to erect a Memorial in the name of the Irish people apologising to the victims of abuse?  Not in my name or the name of the Irish people you don't.   Let the catholic church erect it, pay for it and invite the pope or his cardinal to unveil it, but please spare us the blessing of it.

aine - 27/05/2009 19:48

I can't stop thinking about the poor children who suffered at the hands of those monsters. I have cried for them, I have a lump in my throat typing this message. The state is just as guilty of covering up abuse as the church is.

In 1946 the Minister of Education Tomas Derrig refused to investigate after a boy of 14 was flogged with a cat o nine tails then immersed in salty water because he tried to go home to his mother. The Minister said it would serve no useful purpose.

 

Same denials of abuse spanning 32 years. May they rot in hell.

buzz - 28/05/2009 11:35

I was shocked to see the same people who speak out against this abuse parking their cars outside the church last Sunday morning and going in to hug the altar. In ANY other scanario, the "Church" would be boycotted and no more money would be given for the collections. It is not boycotting God as we all know, God does not require us to be in His house to reach him, we can pray anywhere if Jesus is in our hearts. If we go to Church and hand money over what message does that convey? "It's ok to abuse our children we will still support you"?? GET REAL PEOPLE. WE GIVE OUT ABOUT THOSE YEARS AGO SUPPORTED THE CHURCH IN THEIR WRONGDOING WELL KNOWING WHAT WENT ON AND TWO DAYS LATER GOING TO ALTAR HUG MAKES US NO BETTER.

Marsy - 28/05/2009 23:24

I totally agree Buzz, I too was appalled and disgusted to see full church carparks on Sunday despite the dreadful truths which emerged during the week on the savages who were entrusted with the care of our helpless little children. If there is a God I hope he forgives those who still stand by those savages by attending their church services. Silence means assent. I hope the death rattles of Catholicism have commenced despite these sycophants.

 

lisann - 29/05/2009 13:42

Marsy, its the nature of the irish. They just dont want to know. I have often wondered as the dignitaries follow the Artane boys band around croke park just how many powers to be knew that half the band ware abused. Shame on them.

jcbd - 29/05/2009 15:02

Sunday Worship is about coming together to honour God and seek forgiveness and solace as sinners not to proclaim our virtues so I am delighted to hear the church car parks were full on Sunday last. Lets hope that will do some good.

SCEPTIC - 29/05/2009 15:53

Who is responsible? The Roman Catholic Church primarily, followed by the Irish State, represented in the main by Fianna Fail- the party of Government for most of the history of the State - therefore Fianna Fail, afterward Fine Gael and Labour to a slightly lesser degree and finally, Irish society as a whole which was in thrall to the Roman Catholic Church, which in turn was well served by its pet political poodle, Fianna Fail.

Michael.

PATIENTFOCUS - 29/05/2009 16:17

While I welcome the public outrage focused on religious institutions on publication of the report yet up till now I have found no ears willing to listen to the facts of a particular case known to me where the child was placed from a county home into foster care where he was horrendously abused both physically and sexually. Unfortunately his case was not heard by the Redress Board since the institution he was placed from -namely the County Home -was not a named institution in the setting up of the Redress Board. This was an instance where the total placement and monitoring of the case was done by the County Council who at that time had that responsibility. The state is solely to blame and yet has once again subjected this individual to the further abuse of not even hearing his case. The Redress Board needs to be reopened and given totally new parameters and the State must be seen to live up to its own responsibilities.

Constance - 29/05/2009 17:29

I believe that the church should pay the cost of compensation, counselling etc. as required by all persons affected by these crimes and that the monies should be realised from the sale of their big houses, their lands and any other assets they have and not by the taxpayers. Any politicians who are receiving pensions based on their time in office being during the times when these acts of abuse were happening and who did nothing to protect children, should relinquish their payments and the monies be invested in a fund for the victims of systemic abuse. It was the responsibility of the government of the day to inspect schools and care facilities -

Elitism and upper class values and ideologies in the hierarchical structures of 20th century Ireland created these monsters who believed they were above the law. It is time for them to do their time and for their communities/churches who protected them to pay the price. It is time for them to learn to be servile - as they have always 'pretended' to be - supposedly they served the community - in reality they served only themselves, their egos, their pockets and their orders - now it is time for them to serve society or serve their time.

Yes, there was a culture of 'spare the rod and spoil the child' but the level of visciousness perpetrated by persons in authority goes way beyond the accepted 'culture' of the times and leaves no space whatsoever for sexual abusers. Physical abuse was rampant in day schools, particularly in corporation/working class schools where teachers both lay and religious believed themselves to be above the class of children they were teaching - children were frequently reminded of their working class status and were beaten daily whilst being taught the 3rs - supposedly to prepare them for working for the upper classes in service, shops and factories etc. - I know - I went to one of those schools -

yes, as noted above, some children were abused in their own homes and have suffered similar demoralisations and victimhood - some children in day schools were emotionally and physically abused in the name of education - none of it was just or fair - the teachings of the Irish Catholic Church, who BRAINWASHED their congregations into believing that the Catholic way is the 'only' way and that children must be disciplined at all cost etc. have so much to answer for - allowing them away with their crimes and not prosecuting and charging them we are no better than those that went before us!

mhermannsen - 29/05/2009 18:05

For the last week, I've been in a state of shock and disgust. How these crimes could have been committed, not once or twice, but 10s of 1000s of times over a period of 60 YEARS is entirely beyond me. More than 1% of the Irish population has been brutalised, not by some outside force as many times before, but by its OWN LEADERS, both spiritual and elected.

I heard today on the radio that of 500 complaints sent to the Director of Prosecutions in the wake of another child abuse report, only one person was ever charged and brought in front of the courts. 499 were returned without comment, so we don't know why there were no prosecutions. Given that we are dealing with some of the most heinous crimes perpetrated on children (GBH, rape, assault, neglect, possibly even murder), suspects MUST be prosecuted. The Irish State's record of prosecuting crimes against children is pretty pathetic anyway, but the thought that many criminals (given that those crimes were committed into the early 1990s) are still walking amongst us, makes me sick. A further thought: I read a recent letter in the Irish Times, written by a survivor of Irish clerical child abuse from SOUTH AFRICA!!. Not enough that our children were abused, we also did this to children abroad! I'm afraid we haven't heard the end of this disgusting, horrible tale yet. And I hope we won't as long as the ones responsible (yes, including all the people who knew what was going on and didn't organise in support of the children then!)won't face up to their responsibility!

Disgusted - 29/05/2009 18:27

Sceptic has hit the nail on the head. Of course those Orders in the Church carried out the abuse and are rightly condemned for it, but they were not the only ones. Bertie Ahern made and apology on behalf of the Irish people, how dare he place the blame on the nation. It was his party in power that handed over those poor children to the religious orders and did not even bother to see if they were being treated as human beings. They neglected their duty totally, but that is what Fianna Fail do all the time. The bankers, developers, the brown bags and yet you still hear people saying that they will still vote for them because their parents and Grand parents voted for them. Will they never learn? Now Cowan thinks that by playing ther anti cleric card he can divert attention from the mess he has got the country in and improve their chances at the coming elections. Lets hope Fianna Fail get the message they rightly deserve. In the meantime pray for those poor souls who went through such a terrible childhood.

bluebird - 29/05/2009 19:43

Look folks, this is Ireland and very few pay for their crimes, especially those in positions of power. Like everything else this will go away, be forgotten, we are very very good at talking. Just wait and see how many citizens will turn out on the streets of this country should a protest meeting be organised. My advice dont call one, the victims do not need the sight of a few thousand people walking down O'Connell Street., whilst the millions sit at home and watch. All I am waiting for is for someone to blame the Brits for it all. you know persecution, unable to practice our religion, etc, etc., etc. So prepare yourselves for the next report due out in a month's time. If Archbishop Martin is to be believed it to makes for horrific reading. At the end of the day it was all to do with money, money, money, get as many inmates as you can, in conclusion with the States employees, and then put them to work. When and who is going to investigate the graves which hold the bodies of young people who died at the hands of these people. Ah well, once dead out of mind as they say. No votes from a dead individual. Guess what I believe that the religious are at this very moment moving their money out of the country so as to avoid handing over too much. After all you cannot pay what you do not have.

huna - 29/05/2009 20:04

I totally agree that the religious orders should pay the price for their crimes aginst children and as for those that stood by and let it happen shame on them all

I offten said there but for the grace of god it could have been me or any one of us.

I know of a boy that was sent to greenmount in cork he told me they were sadiists and he said at the time knowbody would belive it if he told it ,that boy is dead now.

how he would be have been happy to know that all this came out at last and most important is that people belive it.

Alo - 29/05/2009 20:31

I found it very stressful to sit through questions and answers on RTE 1 last Monday night why? well that gentleman with the specs I am very sorry I cannot recall his name but he struck a chord with all right minded people. Buzz I said in another post about you that I would never agree with anything you said But on this subject I do agree with you How any govemerment could sign off on a deal that would let this lot of scumbags that try to tell us how to live our lives its beyond me get away with this. The Church and the state took part in the abuse of the children of Ireland This scandal will never leave our shores.How many more are involved in this rape and torture I would put them in the same league as Hitler. This scandal goes right up to the pope. Rome should be questioned on the records they hold.

Evelyn - 29/05/2009 20:31

I found myself reading Renovito's post above and saying YES YES THAT'S IT EXACTLY!

You put it SO well Renovito. I think you should put it up on a website somewhere, or That is create one, where people can sign it online and it can be sent to all our politicians, all Catholic schools' boards of mangagement, all Catholic religious heads, the pope, the whole kit and kaboodle.

I don't have words to describe just how angry and disgusted I am at the State (as another poster said, primarily FF) and the Church colluding in either an abdication of responsibility and a purpose of abusing the vulnerable in our society.But Renovatio you have said it all.

In Ireland there is a pervasive attitude that ignores the murmerings of disquiet about inequalities. There is a widespread immaturity in our society that the ultimate shame is that of being found out, not of having done something morally wrong. This is still the case now. These children were seen as pariahs for the deeds or morals of their parents...as were psychiatric patients, single mothers, etc. Until it's important in Ireland to do the right thing because it's the right thing, to have integrity and pride in ourselves - until then, abuse will continue. We need to all grow up and assume more responsibility. Protest if you wish to change something.

Deborah - 29/05/2009 23:42

mhermannsen is appalled to hear children from South Africa were brutalized by the Irish Clerics. Do a survey, everywhere the Irish missionaries went around the world, children were sexually and physically harmed. In Canada, the First Nations children suffered exreme harm at the hands of many religious orders including at the hands of the Irish brothers and sisters. This was and is a systemic problem. The top level of the system allowed the atricities to occur. When you research the methods of punishment and torture inflicted on the children you will find the same methods were used around the world. The exact same methods were used, thereby reinforcing the theory that methods of punishment were dictated by a higher power and relegated down to the individuals running the institutions. In terms of availablility of food, it is especially disgusting that the brothers and sisters ate well prepared meals while the children starved. Where is the Christianity in this? I have to believe that there were individuals who tried to stand up and be heard, tried to stop the insanity. Where are they? Where are the Christian brothers and sisters who tried to make a difference, those who are brave enough to speak out, like Sister Maureen Paul Turlish? Sister Turlish, your willingness to advocate for the children of the world gives me hope, thank you.

Deborah

bluebird - 30/05/2009 01:50

TWENTY FIVE YEARS AGO Christine Buckley first spoke about what had happened in Goldenbridge. Ask yourself WHY, did it take twenty five years for this report to come out. To protect those in authority, a lot of which are now dead, both Judges, Priests, Nuns, Doctors, etc., etc. Even the Archbishops, Cardinals, etc., who were fully aware of what went on, kept their mouths shut, WHY ? WHY ? WHY ?

Alo - 02/06/2009 18:12

Bluebird,

A very well written and moving post.

Alo

The Man in Bed 6 - 02/06/2009 23:00

I found the following link very informative and I would like to share it with the many people who have contributed to this topic on abuse in institutions.The article can be found at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

The conclusions are quite frightening but they do suggest that irrespective of race, religion, nationality  or individual disposition, when certain situations  exist,  all kinds of abuse will surface. Unfortunately, the research, at Stanford University in New York, was not published until 1971 far, far too late for those who have suffered over the years, and even since then, at the hands of all kinds of institutions.

leen - 03/06/2009 12:07

I cry when I read about the horror that existed in the name of religion to those innocent children. Why are those brutes  not being prosecuted and named. Perverts like them should be behind bars and never released.  The clergy are still having to bring out laws to protect our children against them.  Our lovely country has been shamed all over the world by the Catholic clergy.  All of them. May some God never forgive them as they so easily forgive themselves. The worst has yet to come. Dublin archdioces. They teach children about satan.  He is alive and prospering throughout the catholic church.

Devestated pensioner  

buzz - 03/06/2009 12:55

Buzz I said in another post about you that I would never agree with anything you said But on this subject I do agree with you

How mature...to come onto a DISCUSSIONS board and refuse to agree with someone not because of what they say but because of WHO THEY ARE...Seriously.....

buzz - 03/06/2009 12:58

Very good post leen, sentiments that I am sure a lot of people (myself included) share with you. I dont know how they sleep at night.

Marsy - 03/06/2009 13:46

Well at least we now know where the Pope gets his fancy vestments, Prada shoes, etc. He gets all his wealth as did all those who went before him from the slave labour of poor innocent children in the appalling catholic institutions all over the world and from the pockets of pensioners. Open up the entire records of the church and then and only then will we realise the depth of the deception. I find it even more insulting to our intelligence that now they are cornered the bishops, heads of religious institutions etc., are now thumping their breasts and pretending ignorance, up to now it was denial, denial, denial.

mhermannsen - 03/06/2009 13:59

People apparently called into RTE yesterday, trying to defend the religious orders because "of all the good they had done for the country". I wasn't born here and while I know a lot about Irish history, I'm not familiar with a lot of the details. So would somebody out there list some of the good that religious orders have done for Ireland? I don't want to be facetious, but I'm just not aware of anything that they have contributed to Ireland and Irish society that couldn't have been grown from within the people anyway...

buzz - 03/06/2009 15:14

re point 40 I agree - what good have they done? Aside from oppression?? They are all about fear and control.

bluebird - 03/06/2009 19:15

The Catholic church is all about control, control and control. and money, money, money.

His Holiness sits in Rome and I really wonder does he fully realise what his people have done to innocent children.  I don't think so.  He utters words which at the end of the day really mean nothing they are not from the heart and the only thing they are sorry about is that the whole sordid mess has become public knocknowledge.  Nevertheless, I do not expect the Irish to do anything about it, sure can't you hear it, "it was only a few bad apples".  Does anyone believe that now.  

Alo - 03/06/2009 21:11

 posted 2859 @11:35.

Did you ever hear the line of standing united in the face of evil. I was giving you support to your post 2859 @ 11:35 .

Alo.

Deborah - 04/06/2009 01:10

The post with the link to the research regarding issues of power and control combined with social and or geographic isolation leading to abuse provides significant and valid evidence on the issue at hand. However I would argue the point that within the system there are individuals who chose not to participate in the atrocities. Some would say not being a participant does not exempt one from blame , as being a spectator and doing nothing is just as incriminating. The bottom line is that throughout history there are many stories of individuals who made choices to resist, confront and rebel against injustices, even when the choice meant putting their lives at risk. Yet they made a choice. Regardless of the research, we always have a choice. I often ask myself, what kind of person would I be under those circumstances? Would I have the courage to make the right choice , no matter the consequence?

Marsy - 04/06/2009 09:17

mhermannsen - As nobody has answered your query 'So would somebody out there list some of the good that religious orders have done for Ireland?' I think you can take it for granted that the answer is in the negative.

Shyboy - 04/06/2009 12:45

Reciting all the "good" religious orders have done for Ireland is a bit like talking about Fred West in terms of his skills as a builder; maybe he was a very good builder indeed, but he'll be rightly remembered as a sadistic killer. 

If the religious orders were in fact capable of recognising the difference between right and wrong, good and evil, they would without further delay place themselves into voluntary liquidation and hand over 100% of all assets for disbursement to victims and their families.

What should never be forgotten here is that while 170,000 people were brutalised in the industrial school system, many of them have had families, and tragically, many of those families have suffered greviously as a result of the severe damage done onto a parent in childhood.

There is a whole other generation in need of counselling, support, sympathy and financial compensation for the dreadful wrongs committed against them by the religious orders and presided over by the holy Catholic Church, both here and in Rome.

Mickey - 05/06/2009 19:32

The horrors commited were done so with the blessing of both religious and government.  At that time in our history, the religious orders had full immunity from all laws, by order of the governments of the day.  Both main politicial parties were involved in giving this immunity, they were involved in the secret running of the institutions. 

At this era in history, the world cried out in horror at the cruelty of war in Europe; they stood silent and turned their face away from the cruelty prefromed by the RC church in Ireland and Europe.

onlyme - 07/06/2009 22:35

Why do we express such horror and indignation at the lack of reporting and the silence which prevailed as all this shameful abuse took place. Think back to the days of the holocaust sxity five years ago, was it not easier to keep your mought shut, cross over the road, eyes down and say nothing. We did that for the Nazis and we did it for the Catholic Church, so nothing has changed. I wonder if it ever will.?

As a matter of interest I was one of those caught up in the events of sixty five years ago.

lisann - 08/06/2009 13:39

While i agree with all posters in their views and i have express similiar views,dont forget most child abuses happens in their own homes and by people who are related to them. regards

buzz - 08/06/2009 15:34

Good point Lisann. We should not forget these victims either.

mhermannsen - 08/06/2009 16:06

lisann, you're right and I wouldn't dispute that we all have to take responsibility to make sure that children who are abused by their parents are reported to the authorities by everybody who is aware of the abuse - neighbours, teachers, doctors etc.

That to me is exactly the point we need to internalise from the Ryan report: this abuse was going on and nobody, not teachers, neighbours, doctors, and above all, not the the authorities charged with protecting the weakest, did anything. Has our attitude changed? I really really hope so! I would have no problem shopping an abusive neighbour if I were sure that action was taken.

As far as the recent past is concerned, there can be no closure until the abusers are punished.

Marsy - 09/06/2009 12:46

I despair.  Last night on Prime Time yet another case of sickening abuse and this time by a doctor, again it went on for years and he runs free on a pension funded by the Irish taxpayer.  The beleagured taxpayers will also have to compensate his poor victims.   When will it all end?   The blind arrogance of the man when he was questioned by the reporter.   As a nation has anyone any idea what we can do collectively to rid the country of the scum priests, brothers, nuns, doctors, judges, politicians etc., who have destroyed so many lives.  Am I a complete cynic when I suspect the timing of the publication of the Ryan report - practically the eve of elections here?   

buzz - 09/06/2009 14:20

...and now a nursery in England - even BABIES are not safe any more! It's disgusting.

aine - 09/06/2009 15:21

Jesus said “Whoever causes one of these little ones to suffer. It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea” (Mt. 18.6).

brandy - 09/06/2009 17:00

Marsy,

Yes....saw that Prime Time also; the scary thing is that, in many ways, there are parallels with the 'institutional' abuse of the many thousands in this island of 'saints' !

What seems obvious is that there is a clique in society that, whether through blind ignorance or just plain corruption, will always get away with such sickening behaviour. What are we to think of that doctor's colleague who affirmed that she thought it a perfectly normal procedure to 'examine' a young man's 'private's' when the patient had only a broken wrist !!

It was obvious from the programme that the victims didn't get 'proper' legal process....since the court case should have been held far away from his 'home-turf' !!

I mentioned 'clique' above; it is obvious...whether in Banks, politics, religion etc...that there has been and will always be an engineered protectionism for the friends of the wealthy powerful elite. How else can they explain the fact that it was (and is) mostly the poorest who are criminally mistreated.....only to see the wealthy  get protected?

And finally Marsy....isn't it a wonderful country (and system) that would allow such a doctor to transfer his 'monies' etc to another name....and let him sail off into the sunset on over €100,000 p.a. + pension? Funny...seems I read recently that the wonderful 'sisters' etc did exactly the same !!

 

lisann - 10/06/2009 09:52

A vote of no confidence in the Govt. is being discussed yesterday and today in the dail, shoving the discussion the Ryan report aside. What does that say about our idiotic politicians? Power corrupts. Shame on them.

Marsy - 10/06/2009 16:08

Brandy.

I saw a chink of light today when a priest on Liveline admitted he was questioning his 'vocation' to the priesthood in view of all the revelations of cruelty, beatings, sexual abuse, starvation etc., of innocent little children by nuns, priests, brothers etc., Maybe, just maybe, those who are still loyal to catholicism may ask themselves how can they possibly face their God after staying loyal to such a corrupt power hungry regime. I hope he defects and shows an example to all.

As for the Government and the Opposition, they got their priorities right today, didn't they? Yes! We will stay in the Dail and have a continuation of our slanging match. By their deeds shall they be known.

purple - 10/06/2009 22:48

hi

i was watching the evening news, the people who got abused by these people march up to the government bulidings, more luck to them for that. some of them were crying and i was filing up to, no one will ever no what these poor people went through.

Deborah - 11/06/2009 02:24

I had the privilege of working in your beautiful country for two years from 2002 -2004. I worked as a child protection worker and then as the manager of a program under the National Drug Task Force. I was treated exceptionally well by your countrymen and women. You truly do have a beautiful country and many wonderful atributes. The people of Ireland imigrated to countries all over the world and most were and are hard working, friendly, caring individuals. There are bad apples every where in the world. It is everyone's responsibility to call those few to task and ensure they cause no harm. I enjoyed the passage from the bible quoting Jesus' answer to those who harm little ones. I am spiritual however I have no named religion. I believe Jesus to have been a great healer and leader with exceptional courage. He was willing to die for his beliefs. Where are the spiritual leaders of today? Jesus did not reside in a fortified mansion surrounded by riches. Jesus befriended all, including those excluded by society. Jesus did not fear disease, he was not repulsed by poverty, he embraced all, regardless of status. He led a humble life. I admire those who practice what they preach.

 

Cheers! Deborah

lisann - 11/06/2009 17:45

I agree with Brandy.i thought that chistian [sic] orders were suppose to take vows of poverty but did you ever see the palaces that bishops live in[who covered up the abuses and still do]? you should see the house our parish priest lives in. As for the Vatican,well---need i say more. regards.

bridie - 13/06/2009 04:53

When are we going to get it PEOPLE, having worked in psychiatry all my life and having been privy to our national secrets and its consequences I am so ashamed to say I am a human being , animals treat their young with more respect?? while the knowing of the abuse outrages us and rightly so ? It's the collective denial and judgemental shaming attitude towards the victim that I have always found the hardest to deal with , we would rather label them alcoholic / bi-polar. addict / depressed/suicidal or schizophrenic ,etc than own the actual cause of these states of being ??? IRELAND has the highest rate of physical/sexual /spiritual abuse in the World and we have all known this on some level , Always , there are no secrets in the family, and We are as Sick as our Secrets, We now live in 21st century and still HOLY CATHOLIC IRELAND is having difficulty coming to terms with the shameful truth of its LONG KNOWN HISTORY.

Alo - 14/06/2009 09:49

There is only one way of clearing this scum out-get rid of them jail the lot of them for all time.

purple - 15/06/2009 15:32

i was reading the texted on the tv, one priest says he is so sorry for all the hurt and abuse he has done on the children, what good is that going to do.i say yes put the scum into prision, and lets see how they all cope with all the other people who r in there.

mhermannsen - 15/06/2009 18:22

Everytime I turn on the radio, there is another one of the Filth (and I don't mean the police) on, trying to justify the abuse. This priest on the weekend tried to excuse the abuse in Offaly because they were all ruffians. So that's okay then, 7-year-old ruffians need to be raped and beaten to turn them into valuable members of society! I'm raging yet again - what does it take for these  people to realise that they are criminals, pure and simple?

I used to believe that anybody taking vows must do so because of a genuine belief in the Divine and a will to do good for mankind. Why else would you decide to become celibate? So I don't think it is too much to expect of a Christian brother, nun or priest to speak out against abuse and leave if nothing is done to help. How many have done it though? When I now look at any Religious over the age of 50, I think: "You must have know what was going on, yet you thought so little of children that you decided to continue to be part of the institution that caused the suffering of innocents." Basically, they're ALL rotten to the core, otherwise they would have spoken up.

mhermannsen - 15/06/2009 18:26

And by the way, in the US there is charge of Accessory to whatever crime has been committed, so in this case Accessory to Rape, Accessory to Abuse, Accessory to Unlawful Imprisonment, Accessory to Perversion of Course of Justice, Accessory to Facilitating Slave Labour and  on and on.

By rights, these charges should be brought against any official who could be proven to having known about the offenses.

Reminds me of Nazi Germany - very few were charged and a lot of them ended up as Senior Administrators such as judges and magistrates. Sounds familiar?

lisann - 16/06/2009 15:03

to mherrmansen, we, in are 50s [i am 60] were only kids then. it's the generation before that you should blame. i agree with all you said with everything else. regards

purple - 16/06/2009 23:44

hi

they showed on TV3 tonight the abuse victims, they told there story of that had happened to them, i had to turn it of, its so disgusting as to what happened to them.

purple - 16/06/2009 23:48

hi al

 i told my mother that when i was young , i visit the preist house, i told her that he gave me a present of a record, and he had me sit on his lap for it, i dint no then what he was up to, i was just lucky that i got a great excape from what he was thinking about,. he is dead notr , but my mother head that he abused kids where he was a lriest, god i cant believe how luckly i was.

Alo - 21/06/2009 23:18

I am very much afraid that the government will not go far enough to root the evil beasts who in my view a lot of them are still alive.I feel that people power like a march from all corners of Ireland to government buildings it may have the desired effect or it may not. Looking at post here every one is totally sickened by what is coming out The time has now come for some tough action from our government if they are slow then the people should show the way.

lisann - 22/06/2009 12:34

Is it not a pity that so few people are discussing this topic, probably the greatest scandal since the foundation of this state. i have often wondered how many unmarked graves of children that lie around these institutions. Given the nature of the crimes,many children must have being murdered.

Bress - 22/06/2009 15:00

It's probably old news Lise ann for people who have not been affected by it.

Yes that thought has occured to me too about how many children and babies lie in unmarked forgotten graves.

But it's the living and the future we have to look to and try and make Ireland a place where we have people who are offered all the help they can to become all that they can be.

That is what is needed.

Handouts mean nothing

A lot of the time people who were awarded money blew it or it was very little.

What was important was that people were believed.

 

lisann - 23/06/2009 12:12

I entirely agree with Brandy on that subject.i have a female relation with D.S. who was abused in school and they are beautiful innocent children who trust everybody.regards

Alo - 24/06/2009 22:37

Time for talking is over action is what is called for, There should be enough groups in this country that should be capable of organising a peaceful  march of all time people power is a great weapon against all injustice It would I HOPE show the people who were abused that the whole nation are behind them.

lisann - 29/06/2009 14:55

To Alo and Brandy i agree. we need someone like Vincent Browne who asks really searching questions. I wonder why he does not work for RTE anymore? Political pressure?

Renovatio - 29/06/2009 14:55

Brandy, I attempted to leave a 10 part detailed message explaining the position of the judiciary in both the Irish republic, their responsibilities and the role of the executive and church in undermining them as citizens of the Irish state and as tools willing  and attempting to change the law.

However, the editor refused to publish this and has not responded to a request to explain why it was rejected . The editors position is final but an explanation considering the importance of the discussion as a whole would have been welcomed.  I would love to communicate with others regards my opinion on this but unfortunately there appears to be no PM system in operation on Irishhealth and postings are the final call of the editor as explained.

Perhaps this will not get posted either. Free speech? 

Peter 47 - 03/07/2009 22:22

Hello All

I am reading, and understanding peoples anger and disbelief, at the horrible atrosoties levied on innocent children, over the years.

How can we as Proud Irish parents, stand by, and allow our elected representatives dictate the justice whis being denied to the innocent victims over all the years ?

The problem being faced now, is that although all this was covered up, down the years, many people, in positions of trust and responsibility, helped brush it under the carpet.

That carpet has now worn thin, and the facts are beginning to be exposed.   Problem is, although "everyone", is horified,  the system came to the rescue of the perpatrators, and when it was found that the cover up was now gone, the only thing to do, was to get the best deal.

NOT for the people, who grew up, beaten, tortured, raped, starved, and rediculed. But for the men {and women}  of the "cloth", and also the officials who turned a blind eye.

WELL, if you were in trouble, of course you would turn to your "friend", in a position of authority, to give you a dig out.    That is what the religeous institutions done.   They went to the government, and decided on the worst case senario.   There were many meetings about this,, {behind LOCKED DOORS} of course.

We all know now  what the advice was.   Government would make a public apology.   Religeous would make an excuse about a few bad eggs, and say "SORRY ??   ... we were CAUGHT"   Religeous decided that they must make a gesture. They offered a ferw Euro in compensation,,,,, surely no one would admit to being  tortured, surely if they did,,, no one would believe them ???   Surely it would blow over, as a nine day wonder,,,, it was so long ago,,, most people would have forgot.

Well they haven't forgot.

Some of them were allowed to tell their story....  but no names !!

It turned out all wrong

Loads of people wanted to tell their tale of woe, torture, beastiality, mental and physical torture, starvation, degredation....slave labour...

But the rules had already been laid down,,,   No Way,,, Fair Play...

The secret deal between the ministers, and the clergy, was found out...  The rules of the investigation, were found out,,,  There can be no prosecutions,,, there can be no names revealed... there can be no justice,,,  EVER.

This is holy Ireland,,, there will be another scandal, in a week or so,,, and it will be forgotten.

Well,,, the other scandal is here with us now,,,

It is concerning a once great doctor, a respected surgeon, in a local hospital,,, he was let off in public court,,, but fortunatly,,, not by his coleagues,,,   HE WAS STRUCK OFF.   This time  WE KNOW HIS NAME,,,  this time we are prepared to go into public court,,, as high a court as possible,, and use our own names, and have justice for the many, whose lives have been destroyed, and are no longer with us !!!

We stand together. numbers are climbing fast, and are well over 200.

We are  <dignity4patients>   and WE WILL HAVE DIGNITY AND JUSTICE.

  Peter  47

lisann - 07/07/2009 13:14

Peter 47,your powerful post on child abuse [no.86] stopped me in my tracks and made me think to go back the the deal brokered by michael woods. i quote him now " my deep faith [in the catholic church] made me the best man to negotiate the deal".That statement alone should have rang alarm bells immediately.What is about louth hospital the constantly courts bad news? there should be no statute of limiatation and that cowardly redress board are using that as a exuse to stop thousands of more vivtims to come forward.i could say more in a stuctured way. look michael woods t.d. in WIKIPEDIA and follow links.thanks again peter. regards

aine - 09/07/2009 19:09

There are currently 388 refugee children missing from HSE and Garda care hostels.  What has happened to these kids.  Over the years hundreds of irish children disappeared from industrial schools, probably murdered.   There are peadophiles in the highest offices of this land, that is why the government are so reluctant to persue this matter.  There is a book called Disappeared of the face of the earth by Jim Cairns about missing people in Ireland.   I can't obtain a copy here because Easons won't stock it because It has been censored because of the content. 

Alo - 09/07/2009 23:27

The time is fast approaching when the Catholic church will be no more, For a lot of its priests the abusers will be screaming from the fires of hell in agony of every evil  deed they done to the children. The Pope will be no longer be in control . I hope that every abused person will have the opportunity to tell their story. Is this to much to hope for in this country of ours.

Alo.

Alo - 10/07/2009 14:08

peter 47 post number 86

I read this post a number of times and still go back to it , What a wonderful piece. You tell it as it is. CONGRATS.

Alo.

lisann - 10/07/2009 14:43

Hi Aine, the book you are refering to, was written in 2002 by j.cairns and published by J.C. Publications. i think j.cairns lives in kilkenny. amazon uk have 3 used copies in stock but no new ones. regards.

aine - 10/07/2009 18:00

Thanks Lisann I will order a copy of that book. 

Thanks Lisann

If the families of the people killed in the Omagh bombing can bring a civil suit against the perpretators of that atocity and win. (They were backed by Bob Geldorf and other influential people).  Then something like could happen here,  where the survivors of institutional abuse could bring those who have abused them to court in a civil case.  Perhaps Bono and U2 could put their weight behind it.    It would be the chance to help their fellow Irish citizens get the justice they need and deserve.  

To cherish all  the children of the nation equally. 

Peter 47 - 10/07/2009 18:19

Hello Aine, ilsann

I have just called into my local small town bookshop asking about the book

True, Eason does not stock it ???

I asked about ordering a copy ??

Answer,,, YES,,, no problem, we will have it in 7 days.

Price is €24.oo for single order,,, I left € 10.oo, deposit, ans will get a phone call when it comes in.

This will be interesting and informative reading.

Regarding the various "" Reports, and the awaited news from Ms. Hearney, on the possible inquiry, on the Michael Shine  afair ??? ""  Guess what,,, she said "give me 3 weeks"  !!

Is it not time already for the summer 3 month break ???

Pinocio was famous for his long nose, Dail Privelige must be famous for its

 "Long Finger"

Latest "CUTS" rhumor from An Bord 'Snip' is 15% less sunshine...

Best Regards  ____________   Peter   47

Anonymous - 13/07/2009 09:33

Hi aine, I  understand  that  the book  in  question  has  not  in  fact  been censored  or  banned  but  is  not  stocked  by  major  stockists  and  nor  was it  handled  by  any  existing  publishing  house  as  the content  contains allusions  which  have  not  been  proven  and  thus  may  be  open  to  libelous  action,  as  I  understand  it.

lisann - 15/07/2009 09:48

BRANDY, i doubt few fianna failures would attend given the perceived corruption of their holy party.

ruby - 15/07/2009 12:55

Ireland of yesterday with it's cruelty, depravity and warped sense of what was "decent" has not gone away, nor will it, until it is purged completely of those who [still] seek to cover up and hide the truth of what has and is still happening. All the victims of abuse, past and present must be listened to, acknowledged and cherished. Justice must be persude and seen to be done.

dekarnys - 25/08/2009 20:38

Hi, my name is Jim Cairns, I stumbled across your forum by chance!

I notice that my name was mentioned below!

Its only fair that I have a chance to answer my detractors claims!

1) Easons wont sell or stock my book in their stores or on the internet because their book buyer,  I still have his emails, he claimed there was no public demand for my book!

This was his deliberation after he read my book in a review!

2) "anonomous" says that my book is libelous and describes the contents as allusional!

The many claims of child abuse no doubt were libelous and delusional!

Well, its been published and in circulation for 7 years!

Its still selling, with or without the help of Easons or Hughes and Hughes!

Hughes and Hughes did sell some but Waterstones still would sell them only their 50% commission is too dear!

3) Allusional - the Mc Colgan case , McBrearty case, Frank Short case, the Dollards claims, the DEan Lyons case, Sarah Bland case, numerous other victims of abuse, murders , missing persons - I guess they and their famillies were/are also delusional!

Its a fact that theres always someone on these forums, who  is there to  decry new claims against the criminal status quo!

Ive came across it on Indymedia (which is not an open forum anymore - numerous links are deleted and not for libel or allusional)

My book still sells and is accessable through english book shops

ruby - 26/08/2009 16:34

Jim Cairns, it might be of interest to you and our other contributors to note, that the person who deems your book to be full of allusions and open to law suits declines to identify him/her self. How brave of such a one to skulk beneath the cloak of anonimity and how representative is he/she of those who have denied victims their rights for so long in this country.

more power to you mr Cairns and to your mighty pen, long may you continue to be an advocate for those who need one and leave the sniggering cowardly weasels to their self delusional anonimity. Their day of accountability will come.

lisann - 26/08/2009 18:12

Hi mr cairns and thank you.i will get get your book cos i remember being on the dublin-waterford bus the day jo dollard disappeared. Ruby, everbody has a right to their own privacy. i know of at least one poster who gave out too many details about themself on this site that it could be very easy to trace their home address and there are a lot of weirdos out there.i know the hse track this site and have several posters on it. some things are not what they seem to be. regards

Peter 47 - 26/08/2009 18:43

Hello All, hope your keeping well !

I am delighted to see Mr Jim Cairnes adding his support by posting here and defending his work ! well done you, sir.

Regarding my telling you in a previous post, that I had placed an order for Jim's book "vanished from the face of the earth".... well.... I called back to the bookshop after a few weeks,,, they said not to worry,,, and showed me a note from their supplier, which said they have it on back order,,, perhaps another 2 weeks !!!

I hope it comes in soon, as I have heard good reports... The trouble is things have not changed,,, there is now a new team, in An Garda Siochana, reviewing all the cold case "disappeared", back over many years, using modern techniques like DNA sampling, and modern computer profiling and cross referencing, to help them,,, I wish them all good fortune, as there are a lot of families, waiting for news, of their loved ones.

Some who just disappeared without a reason, and also those who were lost in the system of adoption, and their details deliberatly "lost", for whatever un holy reason by the religeous who were to care and protect them. At best, they are forever separated from their families, and at worst have been murdered after and during abuse at the hands of the agents of the state. and are possibly lying in cold unmarked graves, within the walls of the institutions of torture where they were left in "safety".

More later !!! Peter 47

dekarnys - 27/08/2009 20:29

In reply to Peter47, I thank you for some of your comments! However, in the second paragraph I am filled will disapointment and believe it or not, anger! Im disappointed to see once more, another person who has fallen for the spiel/pretend speak of the government/status quo/ protectors of powerful paedophile networks! The so-called Garda Ombudsman was set up by this discredited government, which I have no doubt whatsoever, is controlled by what people in other countries have identified and named, the Shadow government - the power behind the politicians! You see - the same phenomena is replicating itself in the USA, UK and just about every other country in the "western societies!" Now how can that be - the only explanation is - an international paedophile network, with its roots within the status quo of every respective country! This government and the Garda (the same circle still holds the reigns) will not contemplate any possibility of organised paedophile networks operating in Ireland! I would like to put on record that I have absolutely no confidence in the Garda Ombudsman Commission! It was not set up as a completely independent body - it should have comprised of people who have no connections to the Garda, the government, and any member should be scrutinised closely to see if they are secret agents for the status quo! Also, the so-called new investigative techniques such as the use of DNA are only swipes to make us look elsewhere! DNA should not be the only means by which someone is convicted of a crime and this has been done in the past resulting in convictions on circumstantial evidence! DNA can be planted on or near the victim - this is feasable! The other point is - The Roman Catholic Church was the source of children for the paedophile networks in the past, but because it has been exposed, the paedophiles are sourcing their victims elsewhere - eg: there cant be any doubt that this is the reason why children are being brought in from less scrupulous nations in Africa and Eastern Europe! There is evidence to support this - the French NGO "Zoes Arc" was arrested by the Chad government and accused of abducting children for paedophile networks! They were preparing to transport 103 children back to Europe for "adoption"! However, the French President Sarchozy gave Chad the assurance that they will be prosecuted in France - and they were set free! Have they been brought to court yet? I dont believe they have! Also, a so-called "christian" Pastor Pandy was arrested in 1997 and charged with murders of two ex wives and four of his children, also he "adopted" many homeless and orphaned children from Rumania - all of whom went missing! You can check these facts - they have been widely published but not in Ireland press! Please realise that this Irish paedophile/murder network is like an octopus/camelion, which changes its direction and disguards old "friends" when they have been exposed!

aine - 28/08/2009 21:56

I was able to obtain a copy of  Jim Cairns book Disappeared of the face of the earth.  It is an amazing book,   I have to say  I was shocked but not surprised.  at the cover up by the authorities.  There are more people missing than the garda are letting on.   One day I hope everthing will be revealed just like the abuse by the religious orders.   I was reading the news last week where 2 men have gone missing one in Tallaght and the other in Wicklow.  I haven't heard whether they have been found yet.  It is nearly Halloween so people should be on their guard.  Keep your children safe as they are precious.

Peter 47 - 29/08/2009 00:14

RE Post 104  ~   apologies to all who have to read this,,, its not for U.

Hello Jim

Thank you for allowing that I gave some praise to your books,,, none of which I have been able to get hold of.

Regarding your other few hundred words,,, they read like a penny book,,,,,  don't try to,teach your Grandfather how to suck eggs my lad !

I have only 60+ posts displaid on these "sick sheets" but have 3 times as many

censored !

I am not ashamed,,, as you would try to imply,,, of anything I have ever written, anywhere,,, and I certainly am well aware of what goings on there are internationally from the world press reports on paedofelia...   Are you trying to say I am in support of this in some way ???

I fail to see where you find my second paragraph in post  103, making you angry,,,, it is me complaining about the unavailabiliyty of one of your books,,,,,

all the other WORDS,,, in your post have absaloutely no connection to any thing I have ever posted here or elsewhare !!!

I must keep this short, as nearly all of my posts are shortened.

Jim,,, do us all a favour,,, read back on all MY various posts under this banner,,, on various topics,     and then come back,,, and give another page of verbal,,, You don't have to preach to the converted here "

Thanks a lot JIM, I've had a serious bad day !!!

Peter  47

dekarnys - 04/09/2009 22:12

My posts have been refused!

Portia - 10/09/2009 23:59

I expected to see an uproar re the abuse of children in corporate care and the way the boys in curls made sure that the boys in frocks would escape justice.

I wanted to understand why? and found that the judiciary is controlled by Opus Dei- so finally it makes sense.

Many Irish people still live in fear of the Catholic Cult because of the brainwashing from birth re sin and teaching us pain and suffering and poverty were all good for our souls- What a con that was- yet it is still in the collective consciousness of Eire, who was once a Free Sovereign land.

"The Church, which, with a satanic twist of humour, claimed to be the instrument of 'Christ's loving kindness' , taught a brutalised and impoverished people new meanings to the words pain and suffering... "

kickstar - 06/01/2015 13:44

I was partly educated by Nuns in a catholic secondary intermediate in Northern Ireland, there were two nuns in particular that had no place being around children, let alone teaching them, just to be found walking on the wrong side of the corridor and meeting one of them meant a flogging with the long leather strap we called the cat of nine tails, which they carried on their waist.

There was a means tested system of meal tickets for lunch at the school canteen, full price Red one shilling, half price Green sixpence, and Grey ticket Free,

Now the Nun who administered the tickets had a rule, All tickets for the week had to be aquired by 10.30am Monday morning, no tickets would be made available after that, now not everyone who had to pay for the tickets, mammy, had five bob on a monday morning, so I would go up to her office with a shilling say on monday morning, get my one ticket and a crack on the side of the head for my trouble, she would not sell me a ticket on tuesday and I once got beat up for asking, so this would lead to a totally insane arrangement people would wait outside the canteen trying to buy the free and half priced tickets of the boys with them, for a shilling.

I always remember behind that nun's desk was a big picture of a nun and I always remember that picture, she was a senior nun in their order or some big star, and you had to nod your head everytime you passed it

I have told you but a very short story about the abuse by these nuns I have not even scratched the surface of the litany of abuse perpetrated by this religious order of Nuns.

I am a grandfather now aged 62 and I have to say, these Nuns were downright evil and nasty, to all children who came in contact with them, and they spoiled and destroyed the happiness of my schooldays, and it was not long after school I kicked the catholic religion into the long grass. I would have loved to have informed them, that I done this because I would not want to be a member of an organization that they had any part in.

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