Abortion - the personal trauma

Abortion - the personal trauma unveiled

Abortion has been one of the most emotive issues in this country for a generation or more. Since the adoption of the eighth constitutional amendment in 1983, covering the right to life of the unborn, Ireland has been polarised on the issue.

Pro-life campaigners have been vocal in their opposition to abortion being introduced in any form here. The strength of the Pro-choice response, from women's groups, family planning organisations and student's unions, has been equally passionate.

What may have been lost in the vigorous, detailed and often emotive debate are the realities of abortion for individual women. Indeed, one of the most surprising aspects of the recent 600 page all-party Oireachtas report on abortion was the failure to include any personal evidence from the very women affected. The committee defended this fact arguing that no women came forward.

Irish address

Three quarters of all foreign women attending British clinics for abortions give an address in Ireland. That works out at nearly 7,000 Irish women each year. There are undoubtedly more Irish women obtaining abortions in other countries, including Holland, America and Australia.

In fact, according to the most recent figures released by the British statistics office, in the first three months of last year there were 1,667 abortions performed in Britain on Irish women. During the same period, there were 13,894 births in Ireland. By that ratio, one in nine Irish pregnancies end in a British abortion.

Economic researchers estimate that the Irish exchequer benefits to the tune of over £60,000 a year in the transport taxes alone paid by those travelling for an abortion. Airlines and ferry companies earn around £7,500 per day from these same women.

So far the voices of many of these women have been missing from the national debate. A 1998 report, Women and Crisis Pregnancy, produced by researchers at Trinity College Dublin did add to the debate and included interviews with women who had crisis pregnancies. However, the report, which was commissioned by the Health Minister in 1993, was published with the main recommendations not included.

Still a taboo

Shame, and the public taboo that surrounds abortion, has helped to silence the mouths of those with the most relevant experience to contribute to the debate.

The publication of a new book, 'The Irish Journey', by the Irish Family Planning Association, is an attempt to rectify the dearth of personal detail and the human angle in the whole abortion controversy. In the book, 18 women who travelled in search of an abortion in Britain recount their experiences, in their own words. The texts are slight, only a few hundred words each, but are all the more powerful for it.

The stories evoke an entirely different set of powerful emotions to the ones stoked by the abstract debate. They express the sorrow, regret, sadness, shame and anger of women caught by a crisis pregnancy and forced to make an invidious choice. No matter what their personal stance on abortion may be, no reader could fail to be moved by these glimpses into a reality our society has preferred to bury under raucous political dispute.


Take Kate, for instance. A young teenage girl from a good family. Her parents were shocked to realise that she was already sexually active when they discovered that she was pregnant. This kind of crisis pregnancy is one that takes its toll on an entire family.

"Both alternatives felt like a nightmare", writes Kate's mother in 'The Irish Journey'. "Kate to continue the pregnancy, to become a mother at fifteen, what would that do to her life? Kate was too young emotionally to be a mother; I knew that… Adoption wasn't an option - I couldn't have coped with that, and would never risk the damage it might do to Kate."

Kate, with the support of her mother, travelled to England for an abortion. Having made the difficult decision, they felt that travelling somehow compounded the situation. "Before that, it was all mostly a private crisis, now it became public with cover stories and lies," her mother writes.

The shame and taboo that surrounds the issue of abortion silences women and forces them into lying to their nearest and dearest. This sense of skulking over to England, the fear of being found out in the lie, comes across strongly in all the stories contained within the book.

No stereotype

"The woman who goes for an abortion is everywoman", says Dr Sheila Jones, the Medical Director of the Irish Family Planning Association. "This book shows a whole variety of women. They are the people we have not heard from before, the women who actually went for abortion in England. These are real women we can identify with. They are our mothers, friends, sisters and daughters. None of them took the abortion lightly. There is no stereotype woman who goes to have an abortion."

The scenarios depicted in 'The Irish Journey' bear this out. Marie, an unmarried student became pregnant by a Nigerian law student in London, in the early Sixties. Abortion at that time was illegal in the UK, and Marie was forced to seek a back-street abortion. Her harrowing tale of being interviewed by the police while haemorrhaging in hospital opens the book.

Michele's story illustrates how trapped many women can feel by a pregnancy. Beaten regularly by her alcoholic husband, she discovered that she had become pregnant with his child. The decision to abort coincided with her decision to leave the abusive relationship she was in. "It was a turning point", she writes. "I took responsibility for the abortion, and after it, I took responsibility for myself and the children".

Dr Jones believes that rather than continue with the current polarised debate about abortion, we should attempt as a society to understand the reasons why thousands of Irish women choose, under tremendous personal stress, to travel to England each year.

"Over the years we have heard a lot about abortion from both sides of the argument," she states. "The debate in 1983 was a very nasty one and I would like to see that nastiness removed. If we listen to the voices of women, it might temper that emotion and lead to a more reasoned discussion".

"We should look at the reasons why women feel they can not become a parent at a particular time", she adds. "Abortion has always existed. We have to understand it, and find out why women choose not to parent a child".

The abortion debate in Ireland has often focused on either mythical or unusual scenarios. Some pro-choice lobbyists have promoted an image of careless and promiscuous Irish women choosing abortion as a lifestyle choice. Equally, many of the pro-choice arguments in favour of legalising abortion in the early 1990s were based on the C and X cases, both of which featured very young victims of rape.

Ordinary women

While undoubtedly there are cases of both among the thousands of Irish women obtaining British abortions, the vast majority of those who travel are ordinary individuals, caught in a crisis. A particularly poignant case in the book is that of Jean, a 45 year old woman who found, after seven children and two miscarriages, that she was pregnant again.

The family could not face another pregnancy, either financially or emotionally. A traditional woman, Jean could not believe that she was going to have an abortion, but decided to write her story for the 'people like me who never thought that this would ever happen to them'.

Irish Times journalist, Medb Ruane, who introduces the book, attributes the silence and shame experienced by women like Jean to 'a combination of dogmatically driven medical ethics and a state dominated by a fundamentalist brand of Roman Catholicism'. Certainly for a number of women, the contradiction between their church's stance on abortion and their own personal experience has led to an unfortunate degree of stress and shame.

Ms Ruane says that opposition to abortion is a recent addition to Catholic doctrine, adopted along with the dogma of the Immaculate Conception in the 19th century. She recounts a story where Saint Brigid encounters a young woman who has a crisis pregnancy. The saint, associated with fertility in all its forms, prays and blesses the woman, whereupon the foetus in the woman's womb disappears.

The ramifications for many Catholic Irish women can be immense - undergoing an abortion automatically excommunicates them from their church.

Men's role

Evidently, better understanding of the situations that surround crisis pregnancies is required, not simply by the church or those deeply involved on both sides of the abortion debate, but by society in general. Dr Jones would like to see more men assuming a greater role in crisis pregnancies, since of course they had more than a little hand a hand in bringing these situations about.

"Men are involved in women's decisions about abortion", she argues. "But I think that a lack of male support often leads women to decide against parenting a child. In the end, it is the woman who bears the baby and takes the main responsibility for rearing the child. I would like the public to read this book. It should help them understand better why women seek an abortion".

As the medical director with the IFPA, Dr Jones is particularly concerned about the health ramifications for women who travel for abortions in Britain. An abortion is, first and foremost, an invasive medical operation. Dr Jones points out that as the women she sees must travel to the UK, they are having later abortions, which are more dangerous.

"Irish women travel later because they have to raise the money and make the arrangements to get themselves to England", she explains. Her main concern, however, is that shame keeps women from admitting that they have had an abortion, even to their own family doctor.

Health check

"Women go for an abortion in the UK and there is no communication between their GP and the clinic in UK. Many women do not seek a medical check-up afterwards", she says. While technically, a termination of pregnancy is a simple surgical procedure, because it is invasive as with any operation, some women need a follow-up health check. This should ideally take place around two weeks after the procedure. Because of the stigma and the taboo around abortion, this rarely occurs".

With the number of abortions performed on Irish women in the UK now having exceeded 100,000, there are clearly many thousands of women living in silence about their experience, while around them the debate rages. It was telling that when the IFPA launched 'The Irish Journey', not one of the women whose stories were included felt that they could read their experiences in public.

There are fresh political moves to have yet another referendum on the issue. The government is reportedly under pressure from its back benchers and from independent TDs to have a referendum, to ban abortion and to reverse the Supreme Court X case decision of 1992. It that landmark case, the court ruled that an abortion could be permitted in Ireland, if the mother's life was endangered buy the risk of suicide.

Referendum pressure

The recent all party Oireachtas report put forward several new options, along with a plan to reduce the number of crisis pregnancies. On the so-called substantive issue, the options proposed are: leaving the current legal position unchanged, legislation to protect current medical intervention or a ban on abortion through a referendum, while legislating for best medical practice.

Having gone through the trauma of a crisis pregnancy and the terror of making a choice 'no woman wants to make', the shame and silence that society then imposes is an unnecessary and cruel response. Whatever one's personal position on the issue of abortion, it is hard not to be moved by the reality of these women's experiences.

'The Irish Journey', at £9.95, is published by the IFPA and is available in bookshops around the country.

Written by Jim Clarke of irishhealth.com.


Anonymous - 09/05/2001 10:19

everyone has a right to life

Anonymous - 09/05/2001 15:49

Excellent Article, Thanks

Anonymous - 15/05/2001 17:22

I had an abortion in 1976 with follow up examination.It was dramatic,and it took me 20years ro get over it.Everyone has a right to life,but is it fair to bring your 8th child into the world hungry,or into an abusive marriage where they could be a victim,or expect a 14 year old to look after a baby, or a rape victim to look at a baby and be remind it's blonde hair comes from a stranger in the park.Do gooders should think before they speak.

Anonymous - 17/05/2001 00:27

The points raised are all very true, and I agree with them all. But it is important that if abortion were to be brought into Ireland, that some people did not use it as the next best thing to the morning after pill...

Anonymous - 04/07/2001 13:16

Why do Irish people have such a problem with taking mature responsibility for their lives? Not only is abortion a huge reality, albeit a sad one, of Irish life but it is sickening to witness so much hypocrisy about it. I know of people who've had terminations for the reason that their ultra conservative parents wouldn't have tolerated their being pregnant outside marriage so they did it to preserve the family's good name. My heart goes out to all those women who have to bear the emotional & financial burden of finding themselves in a crisis pregnancy in this country. I have a far bigger problem with presumably pro-life citizens who get behind the wheel of their cars and proceed to drive like maniacs with little regard for whose lives they may endanger on our roads. Speeding, flying around dangerous bends on the wrong side of the road, breaking red lights, drinking, overtaking when it's clearly dangerous to do so are all everyday and lethal features of Irish-style motoring. At least women who have abortions do so in an effort to do the best thing in a difficult circumstance and aren't actually harming anyone else, apart from themselves. It's high time we lived & let live in every sense of the word - and I don't mean interfering with anyone else's private moral code.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 18/01/2002 16:05

Interesting that no-one so far has attached their names to their opinions. Another example of how hidden the subject is. And now, another referendum is just around the corner, it would seem. Things will never improve if people have to hide. What we need is to allow for crisis abortions, and then insure that contraception and universal sexual education is delivered to all. It should be the responsibility of the state to deliver sexual education, as it is all too obvious that lots of parents are not fulfilling that educational role for their children. Both boys and girls should be educated on sex, sexual health, reproduction and contraception. And they should be educated while they are still sexually inactive. So this information should be delivered AND examined by the age of 13. We don't let people without driving skills drive cars. Why let them have sex without the correct education? As you can't prevent early sexual encounters, educate, make contraception universally available and ensure that there is a viable solution to the crisis pregnancies which do arise. Let's stop exporting our problem and deal with it like adults.

Anonymous - 09/03/2002 22:07

I gave birth to a baby in 1988 and had her adopted - it was the hardest decision of my life and it all had to be done in secret as only some of my family know about it. Abortion certainly did cross my mind a lot of times, because then I wouldn't have to go through the birth and painful parting from the baby. I don't think anybody has the right to condemn a woman who finds herself in this situation - no matter what decision she makes. The problem is that it's the people here who have to change, the whispering and nudging never stops and that's why women feel there is no other option open to them than to get out of Ireland, often in secret, and terminate their pregnancy. Adoption isn't such a bad thing, I had a good experience and never regretted it, but it's not for everyone.

Caroline(carnola) - 30/07/2002 13:21

I am 6 weeks pregnant and the lack of information has made this decision very difficult for me. I will have an abortion because it would not be fair to bring a baby into this world when I am single and not financially stable to bring a child up. It is a tough decision but at least I have the choice to go to the UK.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 30/07/2002 20:31

To the last message writer, I'm sorry you are going through this. Please contact support services at your local family planning clinic. They can give you information on alternatives to abortion, but can also inform you on where to get post abortion counselling, which is vital in preparing for such a decision. Information is availalbe if you find the right source. The IFPA is a non-judgemental organisation and can help to get you information. No platitudes to end an email as serious as this, but I hope you make the right decision for you.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 31/07/2002 12:24

Copied from the IFPA website, for the benefit of anyone needing their help and advice: "The IFPA National Pregnancy Help Line can be reached on: 1850-49-50-51 (calls cost no more than 12p)."

Anonymous - 08/08/2002 17:52

It´s an entirely personal decision and it is definately a woman´s decision, the Pope and the Catholic Church shouldn´t even dare giving their opinion, sorry but they don´t have a clue what they are talking about here.

Derval(Derval_X_Cromie) - 15/08/2002 10:27

I can't begin to know what it's like to find yourself in a situation where you don't feel you can go on with a pregnancy, but I can try to imagine... And my heart goes out to any woman who has to go thro' a process where she might decide to end the life of her child before it sees the light of day. I'm not using any of the impersonal clinical terms here because sometimes I think we're a bit afraid to call a spade a space in these pc days. Neither do I want to cause anyone pain or come up with platitudes . But in the very middle of a crisis, it can really seem like you can't go on, and that there are perhaps no options other than an abortion. If a woman can get some support though, from an agency like IFPA or Cura or Life , which'll be non-judgemental and look at various options with her, then that could take her over the real crisis period and help her to examine everything that is possible. I have a little girl who is nearly one. And I do think I have some understanding of the different circumstances that can lead to a woman deciding to have an abortion, in as much as any of us can imagine ourselves in another's shoes. But what stands out to me since having her ( and I have had huge support, and am in a good situation ) , is that she is a separate person, with a complete personality, and that a lot of that makeup was put in place right from the start of her existence. She is a person like you or me or all those around us. I think that in a crisis situation, this crucial thing can be forgotten. Can it be right for any of us to deny this person the right to live, grow up, relate to you ( or another parent if they are adopted or minded mainly by someone else when young),strike out on their own and hopefully know love?

Charlotte(cbreen) - 15/08/2002 12:13

Derval, I think that what happens during a real crisis is the primal human response of 'make this all go away' and that abortions are the chosen option when there isn't support, or maybe a huge fear of condemnation. Primal need for acceptance by your tribe (read family, associates, partner etc) may mean that someone decides they can cope with having an abortion and hiding the fact, rather than facing outright condemnation by your tribe, being ostracised and having a considerably harder life, supporting two people rather than one, is a large part of the reason why abortions are carried out. Which is a horrible interpretation of society, but seems to be a reality. I've spoken to a few friends who have been in a crisis pregnancy and when you try to talk about alternatives you get almost the same response as a child sticking thier fingers in theri ears. They wan tthe whole thing over with as soon s possible, in the belief (often mistaken) that they can then forget about the whole problem (?) and get back to a 'normal life'. I've also seen the same women depressed every year when the projected birthday of a child who never got a chance to exist come round. The sadness when they eventually do have a child and everyone talks about it being their first baby, and the mother knows that's not true. So I defend a woman's right to choose, but would advocate that she talk to a trained advisor, and seriously considered the future in her choices. I've seen friends warped by decisions made in haste, in loneliness and in fear. We need to change the reactions from fear of 'anyone finding out' to a situation where a woman can discuss and decide in a supportive environment, and not be rushed by isolation and fear.

Derval(Derval_X_Cromie) - 20/08/2002 10:16

Charlotte, I really appreciate your considered response to my thoughts on the decision-making process. I wholeheartedly agree that it is a sad comment on our society if women feel they have to brush a crisis pregnancy under the carpet with huge longer-term conswquences. Your description of how friends have suffered is very moving. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Anonymous - 25/09/2002 21:04

I had an abortion 16 years ago I have not been able to forgive myself. I get very depressed at certain times of the year like mothers day and christmas.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 26/09/2002 12:33

Dear Anonymous, Please consider talking to a professional advisor, in confidence. The contact details I gave above should be able to put you in contact with someone to whom you can talk and express yourself. Considering what the options were 16 years ago, you ahd a minimum of support at the time, and even at this stage, you can access help in dealing with the issue. You don't have to go through this alone. Not any more. Let's hope in the future, others have more/better options.

Anonymous - 30/09/2002 16:21

I had an abortion around 11 years ago. After a lot a soul searching and agonising, I decided that this was the right thing for me to do at that time. I stand by my decision. After the operation, although physically I was a bit ropey, emotionally and mentally I was immediatelty hugely relieved. The other four Irish women with whom I shared a ward all felt the same too. We talked and chatted into the night about our stories and how we had ended up there in the abortion clinic. LIke them, I was not ready in any sense of the word to bear a child and become a mother - either emotionally, mentally, physically or financially. I asked forgiveness of my unborn child for what I was about to do - and made my own peace with myself. I did not and have not since suffered any 'trauma' or 'guilt' about what I did. I made an informed decision and took the best option that was available to me living in Ireland at that time. When I returned to Ireland I just got on with my life. I believe it is up to every woman to make her choice. I wish I never was in a position to have to make this choice myself - but due to circumstances beyond my control I ended up with an unwanted pregnancy. I am writing this anonymously because no one in my family knows I had an abortion - and I don't wish to cause any upset to them. However, make no mistake about it, in a face to face situation I have no problem saying I am one of the thousands of Irish Women who have 'taken the boat' and have gone so far as to have my story published in a national newspaper. Life is not always easy, or pleasant, but we all have to make the best of it, and keep moving forward.

Anonymous - 09/10/2002 12:29

Dear 30/09/2002 Thanks for your posting. I found it useful. I had an abortion 2 months ago and at the time was told by cousellors to think about it carefully and by my doctor to do the same but if I was thinking about the abortion route 'to act quickly' which was a contradiction in terms. After the abortion itself I felt relieved but now I feel guilty and tend to focus negitivly on other area's of my life and relationships that are not working and feel I have become a negitive person. I am trying to snap out of this as best I can and feel that it is repurcussions of the abortion itself. But your right - you made a decision and you need to stick by it and get on with your life. Make the best of things and try (as hard as it might be) not to dwell on the past. Has anyone else ever felt that they had difficulty in dealing with people after they had an abortion? The father has not asked much about how I have been doing since it happened and I feel I am bending other peoples ears with my problems ! Are there any really good consellors or therapists out there who might specialise in this area?

nadeem(nadeemandco) - 11/10/2002 04:42

My girlfriend got pregnant but she went on to abortion due to the fear of the society and her parents.She wanted to be a married mother since I was out of the country she did it and later repented on it. I was also sad.

Anonymous - 18/11/2002 23:50

To those people who have never experienced this, don't bother talking about it. You have no idea whatsoever what goes on in the minds of the women who go to England to have an abortion. I had an abortion and in someways, I regret it, but in other ways, I couldn't see how I could've kept a baby. I was in a caring, loving, long-term relationship, but the time just wasn't right for myself, my partner and definitely not for the baby. It takes a tremendous toll on your emotions and your relationship, not just during the period while you make your decisions, but afterwards too. The only advice I can give is to communicate honestly with your partner. If you dont want the baby, say it. If you want the baby, tell him. In the end, you will be the one who either goes through with the procedure or the one who will give birth, so think about it in a very selfish way. All I ever wanted was a stable relationship, a nice house and a very large and closeknit family. In a way, I wanted that baby, but in a way, I didn't. Sitting alone before the procedure was the worst ten minutes I have ever had. All that runs through your head is non-sensical rubbish. I still couldnt believe I was even pregnant, let alone sitting in an abortion clinic waiting to get rid of a baby that I had always longed for. There were women there who couldn't have cared less-they were there to get rid of the child they didn't want. I was there to get rid of a child there was no way I could keep. One woman was so ill, her partner had to come and collect her from the ward-the worst thing was they were snogging the face off each other-not in an emotional way, but in a sexual way. How could they? Yes, it hurts (emotionally) like hell to this day-hell, I'm getting very emotional just typing this. Counsellors or therapists-they don't work. If you regret it, you will always regret it, there's no way you can change your mind on something like that, no matter how many people you discuss it with-professional or not!! To CHARLOTTE- I was very well educated on contraception from the age of 10, but whether it is used correctly or not, it is still NO GUARANTEE YOU WONT GET PREGNANT!!

Charlotte(cbreen) - 19/11/2002 11:38

In response, I would point out, that if the contraceptive pill is used CORRECTLY by 100 women over the course of a year, then on average, one woman will still get pregnant, but that's a low rate. I have friends who understand the risks in an intellectual way, but not in an emotional way. I've seen friends with major hangovers throw up shortly after taking their pill and feel they were still covered by it's protection. Stomach bugs, the runs, changes in timing the taking of the pill, anything can interfere with it's workings and then you are unprotected for 7 days. So yes, I admit that it is possible to take contraception very carefully and still get pregnant, but it is far less likely. I never meant to imply that only 'careless' people get pregnant, and nature will always find a way to go forward. However, I do know that lots of crisis pregnancies are caused by inadequate contraception and that is where I think more education, and not in an abstract sense, but in a real, down to earth, 'yes, you too can get caught out, and here's why' sort of education can only improve people's understanding.

Anonymous - 19/11/2002 20:20

In response, I agree completely!!

Anonymous - 26/03/2003 20:19


Anonymous - 20/08/2003 11:39

Can anyway give me advice?? I had a termination nearly six years ago. I am now three months pregnant, my boyfriend was fine when I told him first but now he wants nothing to do with the pregnancy. I am now concidering another termination but im afraid what it will do to be mentally...can anyone help

Charlotte(cbreen) - 20/08/2003 12:28

This ia a crisis pregnancy and I would advise you to contact the Irish Family planning clinic for advice. There are people who have the training to advise you. I hope all works out for you all.

Anonymous - 24/07/2004 21:13

I had an abortion 15 years ago and have regretted it ever since. However, since marrying a fantastic guy this year I have been feeling even more guilty. Even though we love each other very deeply sex is non existent. I have no interest in sex whatsoever but still would love to be a mother. My husband is aware that I did have an abortion but because I hide my feelings about it so well he thinks I am completely over it. I hate myself for doing this to my child. I would love to have the strength to get counselling but am afraid of what it will do to me as I hide my feelings very well. Does anyone feel the same or am I on my own?

Anonymous - 12/10/2004 20:49

i had an abortion 2 years ago because i was in college and my family told me iy would be for the best.now every time i see tv ads for nappies or baby lotion or see any one pregant or a new born i feel sivk inside and i feel now iam ready for a baby with my partner who i have been wiyh for two and a half years.he is the dad of our aborted child iam 21 am i crazy,it just feels like yhe right time anyone?

Charlotte(cbreen) - 19/10/2004 11:57

Dear last anonymous. Sorry there was no reply from anyone. I've been out of the country and didn't have the opportunity. Please go and talk to a specialist. Post abortion, no matter how late you receive it, may help you regain balance. The family planning clinic http://www.ifpa.ie/services/postabort.html The service is free of charge and by appointment. There are people who can help you, who are of an unbiased background and will advise you in getting information and help to move forward. I hope this helps.

Anonymous - 19/10/2004 16:49

Two years ago i went through exactly the same heart wrenching decision that you are all talking about, at 19 i found myself making this life changing decision on my own, the thought of explaining what had happened to my parents scared me to my bones, my boyfriend at the time didnt seem to want to know, how could i bring a child into that kind of situation? i was in my first year at uni and seemed to have everything going for me, i thought about what i would do if i went through with the pregnancy, how i would cope maybe even carry on with my studies, i soon realised that i would be on my own. At 19 would i be ready to put my life aside? the answer to that question is what gets me through each day. since then the relationship i was in has ended, partly because of the abortion, i think i had to be selfish and deal with my own guilt and while i was doing that i could'nt deal with anyone elses guilt. i am now in my final year of my degree and am looking forward to the future with a new partner who knows about my past and has never probed or judged me in anyway. My parents are in the dark about what happened and i dont think i will ever tell them what i did, some things are best left in the past. ofcourse i get upset and a tear in my eye when the anniversary comes round, i get abit on edge when the subject is mentioned and opinions are raised but that is something that i have to get through. I need to get on with my future and enjoy it, if i dont do that then the heartache that i put myself through would have been in vain. sometimes reaching your own personal goals makes you realise that the decisions you had to make to get you there were worth the pain you went through to get there

Lisa(QHW20454) - 10/11/2004 15:58

I am a woman from US who had an abortion at 13 in later trimester as well as having 4 others up to age 24. I am saddened that your country is thinking abortion is the answer to a big moral issue. Please don\'t make the big mistake US has. Just take a look at our culture and you will see the big moral decilne. Women have believed the lie that they have a right to choose abortion. I think the issue is really about women having premarital sex. The focuse should be more on helping women to say no to men and how. Abortion just gives men the ticket to avoid taking responsibility. People think that they can not controll themselves but abortion is not a solution. It just creates more problems. In my opinion. the emotional problems are unreversable with abortions. Guilt is your cloak. Depression is your armor. Anger is your pal. The best remidy is to deal with the consequences of your actions. If you are going to play with sex out of marrage then you will have to deal with the consequences. I feel that making men wait for marrage will inhance your relationships as well as keeping you from potential wrong ones. I don\'t think sex delivers what it promises if it is outside the marrage bounds. For those who feel they have too many kids..consider getting sterilised. For those who have been raped...consider having the child adopted. For those who are incest victums. Put that person in jail for life. I think that abortion wants to rob your beautifull country of it\'s greatest assets...women and kids. Women be strong and go back to making a man court you and get back into controll of your greatest asset. As for me...I have nothing but regrets. I lost every time abortion came knocking. In my experience abortion makes you angry. Angry at men and you lack affection for your children. I am an example of all what is negative about abortion. I am not religious just want to stop a woman from being taken advantage again and again....Love Lisa

Charlotte(cbreen) - 10/11/2004 16:40

While I can understand your anger, I believe that the reason we in Ireland have a high level of abortion, despite the lack of the procedure's availabilty in Ireland, is due to the lack of information and education on contraception. We, as a society, have to accept we cannot dictate to people when they have sex. We can however, ensure that the people who chose to have sex (1)do so in an informed way, (2)try to ensure that they are educated in their rights, (3) understand that they have to right to contraception, and education on sexual matters, and (4) also that they fully understand what 'consensual sex' means. Everyone has the right to say no! If that right is violated, then the matter is criminal. Blaming men for abortion is to disempower every woman. We are 50% of the population. We have a say over our own bodies. Educate yourself and every woman around you, and we may eventually be able to consign abortion in crisis pregnancies to the past. In the meanwhile, the country have voted for the right to abortion under certain circumstances. That's democracy. Perhaps eventually the goverment will recognise that fact and legislate for the will of the people. Any chance Bertie is listening???

Anonymous - 23/11/2004 22:25

I agree that abortion is never the answer. Personally I believe that if we all had enough money when we were young we could have kept those `unwanted` priceless children. I would never get rid of a child if my partner had been a loving caring guy but I found out he was drug dealing for a living and I couldnt really have my child. I am in great pain about this and this is 20 years ago. I do understand the pain of loss but I often wish I had gone ahead and had the baby and not allowed my idealistic `good` side to decide my childs life. I deeply regret my action... the abortion damaged me physically as well as mentally. Now I do not have either a partner or children and my fear of men has kept me from forming another realtionship since I split with my ex two years ago. I hope my note will offer comfort to you who are considering losing your child. Adoption is a very worthwhile option, not only does your child live but you give both your child and the adoptive family a very precious gift. sincerely

sarah(PGV25796) - 13/03/2005 16:28

ive read all your msgs and nothing helped-2months ago i stopped taking the pill to have an operation.ive been with my boyfriend 4years and waited till i was 21to lose my virginity to him.when i stopped taking the pill we were very responsible and didnt have sex but 2wks qgo on experiencing light bleeding i took the pill again.the next day the bleeding had stopped and i realised it wasnt a periodi immediately went for the morning after pill.please help im so scared and feel its all so unfair

Charlotte(cbreen) - 14/03/2005 14:32

Sarah, Talk to you doctor. I'm sure that the mroning after pill will be sufficient to avoid an unplanned pregnancy, but go and talk to you doctor about your fears and get reassurance.

Anonymous - 14/06/2005 13:32

I am disgusted with the attitudes of some posts on this thread. It is a clear example of the hypocrisy that exists in this fair isle around the topic of abortion. How on earth can people comment when they have not been through the ordeal? How can they rationalise how a person is feeling before, during and after when they have not been in those shoes. And finally how the hell can someone believe they have the answer to reducing the numbers of abortions by mere addtional education on contraception. How do these people know what makes a woman decide to have an abortion or in fact how can they claim to know what brought about the crisis pregnancy in the first place! Sometimes people dont know it all!

Charlotte(cbreen) - 14/06/2005 13:50

A) It's a discussion board. Not an answer to everything. B) Education is not the answer to all things, but I'm of the opinion that it can't hurt.

Anonymous - 21/06/2005 12:19

First can I ask that those "caring" people who put leaflet's in doctor's surgeries STOP and think for a moment as to who may look at them, the reason i say this is that my five and nine year old children happened to pick one up and it was only when they fetched it over to me that i realised what it was, i wonder if those "loving" people would like to explain to my children why they put those pictures in the leaflet and also HOW dare they leave them where little children are going to be ??? Also do they want to answer the question's my children have ???

Anonymous - 21/06/2005 19:52

Forgot to say in my last post ( about the leaflets)the question is to those who i guess are trying to prevent women having abortions, not to any one else. I myself had to have an abortion fifteen years ago now ( and no that isn't why i don't agree with the leaflet's) and i can remember the colour of the room where i had to give birth to a baby that i knew wouldn't draw breath or cry, the light outside the window, the nurses kindness as she assured me that i would be okay afterwards and soon would forget what had happend...have i forgotten ? have i hell, do i regret it ? no. Firstly i hadn't realised i was pregnant due to still having periods and it was only when i went to the doctor with a "bug" that we found out, my doctor wasn't to happy as he pointed out i was putting my life at risk having another baby i have a bad health problem (my daughter was 2) did i want my little girl to grow up motherless ? two weeks before christmas the worst week of my life began, my husband left me, because of what i was about to do, and i was feeling well, i am sure many of you will understand. even now i wonder what he or she would of looked like, what she would enjoy doing, but i will never know, should i of risked my life, i don't think so, like the dr said i had a child already who needed me, but that still doesn't ease the ache of what happend. No one ever has an abortion lightly, or without thinking it through properly,if anyone thinks that, they must need help. Take care, i will be thinking of you all.

Anonymous - 23/06/2005 01:47

The Truth about Abortion: I have had an abortion. it is the greatest regret in my life. If only I had not made that decision. My decision was based on my own selfishness- But, God can heal the hurt if we turn to Him, We never forget, but we can live with the reality more easily. If I had lived a moral life, I would not have found myself in this position. The one thing I found to be missing from all the posts here is God and His commandments.Of course, people do not want to KNOW about God or morals these days. God says that killing anyone is murder. We will all answer to God one day, no matter what our religion or beliefs. People will always find an excuse to do what they want to do. I know it is easy to be wise in hindsight, but I feel that there is NO REASON GOOD ENOUGH to murder our babies. We do not have that right. I could identify with so many women\'s stories here...I remember vividly the room in the clinic, the colors and smells, etc. Other women there had \"just popped in at lunchtime\" to have an abortion, they were cursing their babies and talking of the fun they would have when it was over. I disagree with people who have said that nobody has an abortion \'lightly\'. That simply is not true. Some people are very cold-hearted and think only of themselves... How can they think it through properly? They are not in their right minds because they are under pressure...and you don\'t know until after the abortion how its going to feel and/or affect you, so that is another myth! To many women and young girls, it is an expensive form of birth control. The morning after pill does the same thing, kills the human being that has begun to form, so that is also murder. God\'s word says that when sin is conceived it brings forth more sin and then the death of our soul. So basically abortion happens because of sin. We fornicate ( have sex outside marriage), commit adultery, are full of selfishness, greed, hatred, etc. Of course it is hard to have a baby if you don\'t want one at that time, but why should a human being be killed because of our sin and selfishness. Please, please ladies - do not just consider yourselves- if you are thinking of killing your baby...if you can lie down with a man then you can bear the consequences. I am not judging anyone here because I cannot. But remember, even though your family, friends and neighbours do not know about your abortion or intention to have an abortion...God knows. \"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever shouldst believe on Him should not perish,but have everlasting life. (John 3:16) If you died tonight, do you know where you would go?

Anonymous - 23/06/2005 09:46

I am replying to that lady who keeps referring to God & that we are all sinners & guilty!, I really cannot believe in this day & age people are so brain washed by religion that they put themselves down & suffer. Religion is a mad made concept & the church has absolutely nothing to do with everyday life or the decisions u make in your life, what you did was a personal choice & you should never feel guilty about it or \"fornicating\" as you say! What age are you living in honey, sex is the best thing for us! Forget your guilt. In my opinion there probably is no God so your are wasting your time thinking about him, enjoy your life to the fullest & please dont feel guilty about you did, its not worth it & you are only hurting yourself & no-one else. Some women have to do what is best for them & their baby (I did) & you should never feel bad about that.

Anonymous - 23/06/2005 10:41

To the poster who keeps referring to God. I realise you must be hurting but that is no justification to go on with that religious twaddle. Do you relaise that married women also have abortions? You are using religion as a stick to beat yourself and others up with. My friend had an abortion a number of years back. No-one takes the decision to have a baby or not, lightly. But that doesn\'t imply that women shoiuld feel guilty over their decision. Many simply feel relief when it is over. s for \"killing babies\" again you ae atttempting to imbue guilt into others. Foertuses do not have a legal status of babies and remember the catholic moral dogma in relation to this is a relatively new thing. As for saying that the morning after pill \'kills babies\'. I think this is UTTER RUBBISH\' with no medical justification. I think you should consider seeking counselling to help let go of your harboured guilt and bitterness.

Anonymous - 23/06/2005 17:16

How dare you come on to a site such as this and put such opinions up. When people as you no doubt have allready seen are still suffering for the decisions they have made. I know of people who have listened to rubbish such as that you are spewing and suffered mentally for many year\'s because of it. All i have to say is stop putting your high handed moralls on to other\'s. The only person who should be ashamed is you, for trying to put more suffering onto people who allready have a bad enough time. Oh and by the way, yes i did lye with a man, and fornicate, he was my husband, but had it been either my boyfriend or just someone i had met, it wouldn\'t of changed the fact that if i had gone onto have a baby at that time it would of killed me, and my daughter would of been motherless. But despite my reasons, their are countless other\'s, who\'s reason\'s are just as valid as mine. BUT, why the hell am i even bothering to justify myself to you when you are just to blind to accept what is a fact, this is something that women sometimes need to do out of sheer desperation, and what they don\'t need is someone condeming them. What is a sin is the fact that women over here have to travel so far when they are as desperate and scared, and back again, when they are in pain both mentally and physically, now that is a sin and despicable, but would you understand that no. I can only hope that noone pay\'s any heed to what you have written.

Anonymous - 30/06/2005 09:48

I recently had a abortion, back in January. It was the hardest decision I have had to make in my life. And to this day it still upsets me very much. I had a loving partner, so I thought, we were starting out on a new life together and we both wanted our baby. But when the pressure got to him, he ran, out of our lives. We are not young immature people, I'm in my late thirties and he's in his early forties. We had sat down and talked alot about our life together and we were looking forward to it greatly. I already have a nine yr old by my ex-husband, living in a one-bedroomed apartment. I was looking forward to buying a new house and setting up a family home for myself, my partner and my son & the baby. But my partner couldn't handle it. I spoke with my Mum, my Aunt and my friends and they helped me with my decision. I was not forced into making my decision, we just sat down and talked about it, but emotionally and financially I could not bring another child into this world on my own. My ex-partner has not asked for his opinion as he had walked out on me & the baby but he did pay for the flights to the UK and the termination aswell. It upsets me so much when i read the comments some people write about people who have abortions. It is very hard to bring up a child in this world today and its especially hard when you are on your own. I have brought up my son on my own for the past 9 years with no help from his father. I can say that this will haunt me for the rest of my life but I made the right decision for me.

Anonymous - 30/06/2005 14:38

I just want to reply to that lady above & say u are so brave & so courageous & i think u are a fabulous person to stay so strong & go through what you did. Im so glad you have great support too. You must have been heart broken when your partner walked out. Never feel bad or guilty as in your heart you did the right thing for yourself & your life in the long term, I feel so sorry for you that your partner was not strong enough to go through everything with you but I am wishing you all the happiness for you & your son in the future. You really deserve it. (I replied in a few mails earlier to the lady who was quoting God & feeling guilty about what she did).

Anonymous - 04/07/2005 09:43

Anonymous, you say that the women talking about God and relgion has recognised that she has done the wrong thing and has taken a moral responsibility for her decision and then you go on to imply that other women who have made the decision (and for many it was perhaps the right decison and for many others the only decision they could have made.) have also done wrong. How dare you take the high moral ground and talk down to women who have had abortions and come thru it bravely. Have you thought about the fact that abortion only causes so much pain precisely becuase people like you and her talk about \"moral responsibiilty\" and \"doing wrong\" and attempt to introduce or re-inforce quasi-relgious guilt. We do not live a theocracy any longer and I think it\'s about time people like you woke up to that fact. As for coming over all emotive and talking about \"Killing our babies\". In my opinion, early term foetuses are not babies and it is this type of talk that causes so much hurt and pain to so many women who have had abortions and are trying so hard to come to terms with it.

Anonymous - 04/07/2005 12:02

To the Anonymouns lady talking about God, I would advise you to seek professional counselling outside of the church. I am not being funny here, you need to talk to someone, professionally, about your feelings and your thoughts on this. The Church cannot help you on this issue as it very biased and is not in touch with everyday issues. And for those people who agree with you, they cannot see that you are crying out for help. I know some of you will read this and think I'm being funny but I'm not. I have had an abortion and I still think about it today, but I've sat down talked to people who have also gone throught the same experience. I already have a nine yr child who, of course, dosen't know what his Mammy has gone through, but he has kept me sane and kept me going all this time.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 05/07/2005 20:00

Folks, this discussion is on the verge of disintegrating into a blaming session. We all know that there are as many sides to a story as there are tellers of that story. In the case 0of the baby vs foetus debate, I beleive the argument is that until a foetus is capable of independent life, it is not a recognised individual. I humbly suggest that this is NOT the place for that particular debate. This discussion is centred on the concept of "Abortion - the personal trauma". Going down the morality/immorality of abortion can only add to the measure of personal trauma. Understanding that there is a ferocious amount of debate possible on that particular stream, I submit that anyone who arrives at this page via a search of the site and after viewing the title of the discussion, is not coming here for a morality debate. Please be as kind and polite to one another as you would be if you were having this discussion face to face. The anoymity of the web can be an unforgiving thing. Regards, C

Anonymous - 06/07/2005 11:03

Anon, I have no problem with morality but I Do have a huge problem with other trying to force their own brand of personal morality on me. It not, in my view justifiable to bring a child into the world for the sake of 'it's future friends' or it's grandparents. They will not be the one rearing it. Nor is it practical in anyone's reality to rely on winning the Lotto. I mean would you rely on that philosophy to solve all your financial problems? I know several women who have had abotions. Certainly some have felyt sad bu soem have simply felt relief. Baby are legally defined as those outside of the whom or already born. In medical terms they are defined as those capable of independant survival outside the womb. FOETUSES ARE INCAPABLE OF INDEPENDANT SURVICAL OUTSIDE THW WOMB AND THUS RELY ON A UTERINE ENVIRONMENT FOR NOURISHMENT, GROWTH AND WARMTH. - With respect.

Anonymous - 06/07/2005 11:14

Hi Anon, Of course these decisions about abortion are taken very fast and often in panic situations. It is a huge decision to make in the space of a couple of weeks! But impossible or not it is a decision many women (6,000 + in this country) must make every year. The nature of pregnancy is such that a women may not know she is pregnant for 6 weeks and the fact she must be referred and travel outside this country of ours combined with the fact that the safest abortion is within the first 12 weeks leaves only a window of 3 - 4 weeks at most.

Anonymous - 06/07/2005 13:59

referring to a foetus just being a bunch of cells,then we were all just a bunch of cells at one stage.i was in a crisis pregnancy and started bleeding at just 5 weeks, in the early pregnancy unit i had an internal scan and a wee heartbeat was detected not just a bunch of cells. plus at 12 weeks the foetus is recognisable as a human being, a lot of abortions are carried out at this stage or later. though very difficult circumstances i did keep my baby. im not throwing stones at those whove had abortions im just saying that a foetus develops rapidly and has potential for human life outside the womb, babies born at even 22 weeks gestation hav lived with good medical care. the choices we make are what we have to live with but theres no point in saying that ALL abortions are just a bunch of cells.

Anonymous - 07/07/2005 11:23

Anon, the women I know were not only relieved becuase no one at home knew. Perhaps you don't see my point - perhaps I'm not clear. If having rhe baby and having someone else bring it up were the issue they would have gone on to have their babies and there were many who would have helped bring it up. They had abotions (as many women do) because they did not want to be pregnant. They were relieved when it was all over becuase they were no longer pregnant. Not becuase they disliked children or never wanted to bring one up. In fact two of the women went on to have childen later on in their lives.

Anonymous - 08/07/2005 01:55

The people who are relieved because they just didn't want to be pregnant sound immature to me. Where do you think they are coming from? Is it because they just don't really care about what happens in life generally? Are they afraid that they will ruin their bodies? Are they not able to identify being a mother? Your comment is a very interesting one and could be an area that is being missed at the moment. What kind of a person are we dealing with here? Has this person not been shown much love or caring in the world? Has this person been given too much in life that she believes that this pregnancy isn't good enough for her? Maybe this is what some women mean when they said that they were selfish. It sounds to me that they do not want to face up to a problem that life has given them and has decided to reject that problem by getting rid of it as quickley as possible. It's such a pity when another human being's life is at stake. Saying you just don't want to be pregnant appears to me to be showing up a weakness in a persons character and this weakness could be fixed by making the person see that problem out to the end. That is the only way that I can see that builds character and strength in a person. Maybe we are solving too many of our kids problems for them and this could possibly where it shows up in the future.

Anonymous - 08/07/2005 10:56

The people who are relieved because they just didn't want to be pregnant may well have been immature or have a "character weakness" - (call it what you will), perhaps you are right. But that is the reality for many women (whether young in years or mature in years but not mature in outlook) I don't know where they are coming from and believe me, many care very much about what happens to them and in life in general (part of their reason for the abortion = the don't want pregnancy happening to them) so I don't know where you got that idea from. Actually, yes, there was one was very much afraid that pregnancy and the subsequent childbirth would ruin her body. As for the woman not being shown much love/ being given too much - well it's hard to tell isn't it. What seems from the outside to be a good loving personal history may be very different for the person living in it and it's impossible for another to tell unless that information is volunteered to one. As a matter of fact - they do want to face up to the problem and abortion is precisely the method they use to solve (sometimes to them, the only solution) the problem. Remember it is not always the 'selfishness' that you label. Sometimes, like one contributer above, there are serious health reasons for not continuing a pregnancy. As for "fixing"" a persons character "weakness" by MAKING the person see that problem out to the end. What sort of mysogynous rubbish is that? we do not live in some sort of post-nazi superstate. You cannot morally or legally force a women to continue a pregnancy against her wishes. Would you have it on your conscience should she have seriuos health consequences - either physical or mental (that latter of which can occur as the result of pregnancy due to rape or incest among other circiumstnaces). Forcing a women to continue on any life or boldily altering course "build character and strength" (whatever that is supposed to mean) unless lifelong mental and possible physical scarring is what you call "character building". If we are solving too many of our kids problems for them then generations of parents have been doign it for centuries because abortion (unsafe and illegal in many cases) has existed for many hundreds of years in many cultures worldwide. The differenceis that now women who have access to the money and are in a position to travel have the option of safe and legal abortions.

Anonymous - 08/07/2005 11:04

Anon - 01.55, you speak of another human life. What about the womans life? Have you thought of that? The possibility of being saddled with a child she does not want (for whatever reason - her reasons are her own) for 18+ years and all the limitations that involves. The possiblity of a dangerous pregnancy and the effect that this would have on her future health and life. If she has chilren already and is stuggling the effect another child will have on their lives and their future. Or the truama that woman will experience by going thru the 9 months of pregnancy followed by the stuggle of childbirth and all it involves only to gave the baby away to strangers, in adoption or have it taken into care in the hope that she can resume caring for it at a later point. Have you condsidered that? Why do you value the potential life of a foetus above that of the woman or any existing children she may have. A woman is not a baby-producing machine. Her life has as much vaility during and after a pregnancy as it had before she got pregnant and deserves to be treated as such.

Anonymous - 08/07/2005 11:18

How DARE you cast any judgement on the woman who makes the unbelievably hard decision to have a termination. I had a termination 4 years ago and it was the hardest decision I ever had to make. I still live with that decision every day and for anyone to suggest that it is for vanity reasons such as losing my figure is really narrow minded. I really hope that you never find yourself in the situation that I found myself in. When I told my (loving!!) partner that I was pregnant, he asked me if it was his. I realised then that I couldn't have a child with him if that is what he thought of me after 3 years together. I was never unfaithful to him. In the past four years I have had serious problems with my health, depression and serious weight loss as a result of what I went through. I was so distraught at the time of what I did that I never went for my check up and got a massive infection. As a result, I am unable to conceive naturally. This is a constant reminder to me that I went through what I did and for someone like you to cast judgement on me and others like me really makes me so angry. And to sugess that we were unloved? HOW DARE YOU. Luckily I have met a wonderful man who knows what I have been through and loves me for who I am , NOT for what I have or haven't done. I went through some seriously tough times after I had my termination but I seriously believe that I would not be who I am if I hadn't gone through it. And to anyone in a similar situation, do what is right for you because at the end of the day, you are the person who will have to pick yourself up, dust yourself off and get on with things. Not the people who judge us. There but for the grace of god and all that. Lolly xx

Anonymous - 08/07/2005 13:38

My decision to have a termination was my decision & my decision only. I could not bring another child into this world on my own, both emotionally or financially. And for someone to say I am a weak and selfish person is totally and utterly wrong. You dont know anything about me. I have sacrafised a lot of 'nice' things to bring up my 9yr child (with my ex-husband). And no I'm not making myself out to be a martyr. If my now ex-partner had not walked out on me & his unborn things would have been greatly different. This discussion has lost the plot completly, its now the 'blame game' and not as the title suggests Abortion - The Personal Trauma. In my view women who have had terminations have opened up their hearts and have told their stories, which has to be commended. It is such a difficult topic. And for those out there who have called us weak & selfish have not been in such a situation and I hope you never go through it. I do agree that the lady who had a termination because it would change her body is one in a million but the rest of us are not.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 08/07/2005 14:49

I'm am now leaving this morality debate, as it has been diverted from it's and sidelined by a small few people who have hijacked the discussion, originally a support discussion, to beat a drum about their opinion on the morality or otherwise of abortion. Again, I suggest anyone suffering personal trauma contacts the IFPA who's details are above, in a prior and more rational section of this discussion. Regards, Charlotte

Anonymous - 08/07/2005 20:09

Dear Charlotte. There is absolutely no need for you to leave this discussion. If you look back on the comments you made at the start of this conversation it is easily noticable that you would prefer if abortion didn't take place. Some of your other comments suggest otherwise or would appear that way. My asking questions has made people angry but this kind of anger has to be adressed. We haven't gone off the topic, we have just gone into the deeper issues of it. While I may appear to be judgemental,(I was hoping that I wouldn't) I do feel like being the voice for the child. Some women ask me that question. Why is a woman's life less valuable than the child's? To that I would say, of course it is not. What I would say though is that they are both equal but abortion gives the child no compromise what-so-ever. That to me is grossly unfair. The questions that I put earlier on have given a fairly angry response but these questions were designed to do that. Abortion - the personal trauma has to be seen from every single angle. This is truly vital. It is no good only knowing half the story. We need to know as much as possible so that we can improve this situation in the future. Every single person on this forum has a fabulous contribution to make even if we look back at some of our comments and say, Shit, I shouldn't have said that. For the moment though it must be said.

Lisa(QHW20454) - 08/07/2005 21:37

Wow! I have been reading the many comments on this heated issue and what I hear so much of is regrets. It is clear women do not want this proceedure called abortion, but they also feel helpless. I have been there and know the deep dispair of making a decision to end a life even though I truly did not want to. I like many others felt I had no choice. Funny, why do we call it choice? There is no real quick remedy for this issue of unwanted pregnancies. The only way we can even begin to change in our society is to share truth. Truth about what abortion does and does not do. We have to reach our youth early on, setting examples of committed relationships. How can we expect our youth to engage in responsible relationships if we ourselves have not. Every one has a choice, but do we really want it? When we decide to get involved with a man weather out of planned decision making or in a drunken stoop, the decision has been made before any sex happens. If you play, you have to be mature enough to Pay! There is no free ticket with sex. Either way, you pay. You pay in you consience. No one can be your inner voice, no one can make you do anything you do not wish. You have a choice and that choice is to not engage in sexual activity if you do not wish a child to come into the world. If you do get pregnant you should buck up and take responsibility for your actions. That means bringing a child into the world. I have and sure it was not a bed of roses and it has been something I have had to pay for. My selfish acts caused me to bring a child into the world who had no choice. You see if we thought more about who does not get choices than maybe we will not put ourselves in such desperate positions. You can see by reading that abortion is a real bad idea. Every woman who has had one never says, "Wow! I am so glad and I feel it was such a good idea and I feel no pain or regret!" Quite the opposite. Why? because their are consequences in life and sexual freedome has consequences. Our society has tried for so many decaides to avoid this simple truth. Why are we still so dumb toward this? Sin leads to death. Sex outside of a marrage is sin, and abortion is the death of that sin. I did not write that line, it is in a book that has been around for over 2000 years. Could that book be right? I have had abortions, 5 of them. I know the differance. I am no saint nor am I now. I am forgiven but that does not mean I do not have the memories or consequences of the sin. My only recourse is to tell women the truth about the lies I fell into. If one woman takes it and is free from the lie than I am happy. Keep sharing it is good to talk and get the truth out no matter what the story. Lisa

Charlotte(MBM29174) - 09/07/2005 01:38

This discussion has to be open to everybody. It could be our own daughters in the morning and we all need to know the sadness, the anger and we need to hear the morality side of things as well. We would all love discussions purely in support of ourselves but because we all interact with each other and we all affect one another we have to be open to different viewpoints. Some of the comments we have heard appear nasty but may be necessary. If we are to be truly honest with one another and say exactly how we feel then surely this is a good thing. Why do you keep saying "How Dare You," and why do you keep trying to shout people down. Let people have their say in every sense. Smokers discussions constantly have anti-smokers view points as well. That's because they too are interlinked. Get on with the discussion. Support comes in every form.

Anonymous - 11/07/2005 10:05

The cost of living in Ireland is so high some women who would like to keep their children are forced to have abortions for economic reasons. Fewer and fewer people can AFFORD to have chidren in Ireland today! This factor should not be overlooked. In light of this the government should make it easier for people to bring up children (more widespread and affordable childcare facilities, affordable housing etc) or else stop being hypocritical and allow abortion in this country. Dumping Ireland's abortion issue on the UK's doorstep won't make it go away. In Ireland it seems that a high proportion of people who are having children are those who have no sense of responsibility and are happy to let the State provide while conscientious working women are forced to make choices they wouldn't make if they could afford to have children. Something is seriously wrong somewhere and the economic issues behind abortion need to be addressed. Getting all judgemental will solve nothing.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 11/07/2005 11:05

Folks, (this is Charlotte-cbreen, not Charlotte-MBM29174 speaking) for those of you who interpret my previous comments as a wish that abortion didn't happen, you'd be correct, but those assuming that there is a religious connotation to my opinion, you would be mistaken. I believe one of the major reasons for such a high rate of abortions and teenage pregnancy in Ireland is the blind Catholicism of the state. The break between church and State should be made total and a single religion should never be in a position of enforcing its opinions on all members in the State. Extremism is always a bad idea. Fundamentalism is frequently brutish in it's handling of the opinions of anyone who does not comply with those opinions. I believe the State's general cowardice in confronting this issue, and the extremely vocal religious front in Ireland have kept a comprehensive, sexual education from our children. And I believe THAT is immoral. I think that fact is a direct contributor to the current rates of children getting pregnant. I think it is hypocrisy on the part of the State, which refuses to legislate for abortion, after it was voted for in referendum. I think these things not from a religious point of view but from the point of view of a librarian, who is obliged to provide all information on a subject to a client. Not just the opinions I wish that person to know. For those continually harping on about living with regards the bible, keep in mind that for a 2000 year old book, it’s had a lot of translations and recopying, having been written (with a political bias of its authors at each step of it’s translation and recopying in mind), during a period when women could still be stoned to death for such a thing as pregnancy outside of marriage. If you lived your life by applying all the rules in such a 2000-year-old book, you might still practice polygamy. Equally, according to the bible, while an unmarried woman who has sex with an unmarried man, they should be stoned to death. If however it is an married man and an unmarried woman, he can circumvent the stoning by taking the unmarried woman as a plural wife. And this is the book you want to emulate? That you want your children to emulate? Have you even read it? Start to finish? Which version? Catholic, Protestant, Hebrew, Greek....?

Anonymous - 11/07/2005 11:43

Lisa, I understand the you speak from experience and I respect your veiwpoint but in sme respects you are wrong, I believe. From my contact with women who have experienced abortion, some of them are relieved once it is over - releived because they did not want to be pregnant. As for saying that there is no "free ticket" and if you "play you pay" with sex (whatever that's suppoosed to mean). What about women, who have sex with a loving partner/husband in a monogamous relationship and for whom contraception doesn't work. What about trusitng women who are lied to by a lazy partner/husband about his reponsibility as regards contraception. Where do they fit in? Not to mention victims of rape or incest - who have no choice. You say that we have a choice and that choice is to not engage in sexual activity if you do not wish a child to come into the world. I really think that in the era of contracpetion that is hardly a ealistic statement. We have come to expect that the contraceptive precaustion work as they are desinged to do. For many, if they do pregnant they do "buck up" and take responsibility and for 6,000 Irish women and girls every year that means abortion. I really feel your quote of "Sin leads to death. Sex outside of a marrage is sin, and abortion is the death of that sin" - is demeaning to so many women. Bringing quasi-relgious ideology into this is to me, both overysimplifying and for many slightly insulting. All it does is attempt to re-inforce the guilt that so many women have worked so hard and stuggled to relieve themselves from. Remember too that sex is not always a choice and the married women, who haven't had sex outside marriage also have aortions. I am not trying to insul you Lisa. Just broaden your view of this by other, valid expriences.

Anonymous - 11/07/2005 14:11

Lisa, why are you trying to force your own personl morality on others? We do not live in theocracy dictated by ancient literature.

Anonymous - 11/07/2005 19:04

I'm afraid a lot of us are indeed living in a theoracy and we are still living in ancient times. The past is still with us, the present is with us and the future is also with us. You need to understand that women who do have abortions and women who don't have them are basing their lives on religion. Having said that we are also liberal in our views especially in areas that suit us. This is where the clash is in the area of abortion. For instance if we were just to look at the commandment that says, Thou shalt not covet thy neighbours wife, which means basically that we are not to have affairs in life, I may be completely liberal in this area. But other people may not be able to handle this one at all. Abortion to me is an area that I can't handle and I am deeply concerned for both parties. We can all dismiss religion as meaning nothing to us at the moment but the fact of the matter is that it does. We may not think that we are consiously aware of it but unconsiously we are. Looking back at the comments made it is obvious that it has a big part to play and it is impossible to penetrate this in a persons life because it is not just based on thoughts, it is based on a connection with who they are. Some of these women truly and utterly believe that they have come from God and want to become like God and casting them aside by using words such as quais-religious ideology is also immoral in my eyes.

Anonymous - 12/07/2005 10:15

But Anon it is quasi-religious ideology? What else is it? Ifd there are woemen living in a theocrasy even in 2005, hten I do genuinely feel sorry for them becuase so much elf-imposed guilt in brought about an re-inforced by externally imposed catholic dogma. Of course I have a morlaity - a personal morality - like your example, I would never have an affair or a relationship with someone who would commit infidelity - but that is my onw PERSONAL moral code. I would never try to impose it on you or anyone else.

Anonymous - 12/07/2005 16:47

Anon:10.15 There is no need to feel sorry for us. Guilt comes from the action that we performed and not from thinking that we hurt God. If you look at a child's life up to the age of five you will see that this person is a very gentle one. They are incredibly good with animals and get very upset when the animal is hurt. This is what I call the God part in each of us. The part of us that genuinely doesn't want to hurt. We have that within us from birth. When we invade that part, we recognise that somehow we have done damage and this is where guilt comes from. It is not about this man up in the sky judging us by what we do. He hasn't punished us at all. We have punished ourselves. This part gets affected the same way when we put a child up for adoption. There is a deep sense of loss. In your case you may have lost your child to heaven - with adoption we have lost the child to the world. A child lost in heaven can seem powerfully near to them if they have a deep connection with this God part. On the other hand a child put up for adoption can seem very far away. The big differance here is time. You have to wait a whole life-time to be connected again maybe with a child that is aborted. With an adopted child you are hoping that there may be a time differance of 18 years. I am still waiting though after 27 years.

Lisa(QHW20454) - 12/07/2005 20:58

Wow! Wow again. I am so glad people are sharing this no matter what we all think of. I can take the insults, that comes easy for me. The differing points of views are a part of human nature. How many people do you know agree with what you say or do? Lets face it weather religion or not we will never agree 100% and that is ok. 1st I want to address Charlots comments. Actually Charlot, the New Testament (when Christ came) does not condone having several wives. In fact quite the opposite.Men are ordered to only have one wife. Jesus was the one who set an example for the men who were trying to stone a lady who apparently was caught in \"sexual immoraltiy\". He told the men who were with out sin to cast the first stone. 2nd, the bible has been translated many times and rewriten, you are very correct. Yet, no one (NO ONE) has been able to find one error between the books and they all say the same things. If that were not so, then the validity of the bible would have been proven to be incorrect. Since that can not be proven, the validity of the deiety of Christ is in question. I feel that when these statements are made usally the one making them has never even read the bible. They get their informantion from second hand news. I strongly encourage you to read the book and see if your beliefs are true, since it is clear that your statements are not accurate. 3rd I have not herd one woman on this sight say that they have been raped or had incest. Over 98% of abortions are sought by women who concented to act of sexual intercorse. I am purly comming to you on the facts. I can not make anyone feel guilt, that is their choice and no one can make you feel a certain way with out your permission. Now, to the other lady who feels I am saying the word \"Sin\" I am sorry, What other word would you like for me to use? As far as getting pregnant by your husband because of failed contraception...I have a 8 year old daughter be cause of that too! I have epilepsy and for the sake of my health it is very very dangerous for me to be pregnant. I was just in fear because of it. My husband had his tube cut so that we can not get pregnant. Did you know I am from the US? It is very expensive to live here too. I do not work and we live from pay check to paycheck. Yes kids cost money to raise. I don\'t think we should be blaming religion for our own choices. I am just trying to get women to take responsiblity and not blame others or situations, that will not change a thing. Abortion has been going on for some time, it will take some time to change that. We can not do much about our past decisions but we can change our future decisions and our kids. I put kids because boys need to be taught too. Infact my whole concern is that men are getting off scott free and we women are footing the bill. Don\'t you find that very interesting. Instead of stoning we are killing ourselves and our kids for men. Sounds like the ancient days are still at hand. I think \"FREEDOME OF CHOICE\" is for men and not for us. As far as religion goes, I am not adhearant to one or the other. I do and have read the bible and again and again. I don\'t think the answer is to condem women. I surly do not want someone to say I am a sinner or not. I am just repeating what the bible says about an act. I have no quams about saying I have been immorral. I am trying to explain how we got to this stage in the first place. I never felt religious people or church clergy would help. Mainly becaus I did not want to be reminded of what and how I screwed up. I know I did so how did that change my situation? For those who talk and have not had an abortion, they really don\'t know what they are talking about. For the ladies who have been through it I can understand you and I share your grief, anixety, pain, fears and anger. Now lets find a solution to this and impact one person at a time. Lisa from the US

Mabz(KPZ31376) - 13/07/2005 04:06

ive been reading this topic for quite a while and decided id give my opinion....now this is just my opinion and from some of the above posts i will be afraid that some people might think im ''forcing'' my beliefs on people even though i am just giving my opinion which some cant seem to accept even though this is a mainly adult topic. Anyways, i noticed that some seem to be forgetting one important thing when it comes to abortion, the one thing that is the basis of our very existence, the one thing that makes us whole and special and individual....the soul. Now i have read some posts where the foetus is referred to as a lump of cells or basically a parasite as it can only live within ye. Personally i think that description is disgusting. People seem to have an attitude that you are only destroying something physical when it is something much more powerful than that as are the consequences. you are not just detroying a body or ''clump of cells'' but a real human being with an individual SOUL created for a purpose, and i dont know if im naive to think that by taking someones soul without any regard to what they think is well...to put it bluntly murder. Oh it cant communicate and scream ''please dont take my life, and give me a chance'' like some people do these days when pleading for their lives....it is that bit more helpless. I understand that all situations are different but i just feel so strongly as a human being that taking someones life regardless of age, size, ability is wrong. As far as im concerned from the moment of conception a human being has being formed and i dont agree with people using excuses like '' its not really a person or i cant manage this thing'', how dont any of ye know that the foetus isnt crying out inside saying ''mommy lets do this together ill help you, you wont be alone in this''.... I dont know really, i guess im young still and dont know the ways of the world. But from what ive grown up with and experienced, taking someones life without consent is wrong. Glad to get that out, i know some wont agree but thats what a discussion board is about, although i am quite scared as some people have such narrow-minded intolerance to some beliefs opposed to them.

Anonymous - 13/07/2005 10:16

No - guilt does not come from actions. Guilt coems from a mindset. Usually imposed or adopted during upbringing. By looking at the different cultures and religons around the world you can see that. Yes, children can be very gentle and kind to animals. But you forget that some children can also be deliberately cruel - especially to other children and those whom they percieve as different. Children who are gentle do not change because someone invaded the innocent or "God-like" part of them but because sooner or later, contact with the world shows them a side to it and to nature that is harsh or seems cruel. Thankfully, I have never lost a child to adoption or death and have never had an abortion but I have come in contact with and known the experiences of many women who have.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 13/07/2005 10:39

I find it interesting that as the discussion site has remained active, we seem to have 'attracted' several US anti-abortion commenters. I find it interesting at an Irish health site holds so much attraction to them. I suspect that a lot of this is deliberate attempts by a group with a particular agenda to subvert a supportive discussion. So for those who have been past adherents of this discussion, please be wary of the politiical biases being displayed. Subverting a discussion board, i.e. turing from the initial subject to a subject of the subverters choosing.

Anonymous - 13/07/2005 11:56

Lisa, yes I realise you are from the U.S. As you said, no-one can make a women guilty without permission. Of course we all have frewedon of choice. Why is why condoms, pills, caps, diaphragms, coils, implants, morning after pills & IUDs, abortion, Natural Family Planning and IVF all exist.

Anonymous - 13/07/2005 11:58

To say we are \'killing our kids for me\' is arrant nonsense. Most woemn who ahve abortion do so becuase they want to. As for saying that those who have not had abortions do not know hat they are talkin bout. That\'s tantamount to saying that your have to be a mother in order to be a paediatrician. Rubbish.

Anonymous - 13/07/2005 12:06

Mabz, first of all I respect our viewpoint and your moral standpijt and you are entitled to make your point. However, biologically a foetus is a ''clump of cells'', just like you or were was at 12 weeks gestation. Yes a clump of cells with potentional butstill a clump cells. As for a soul?? Aen'y you being a little over-emotive. I have not yet hard of any evidence , scientific of biological for the the existence of a soul. As for Murder - this isn a legal definition which has been hijacked timne and time again by those takign an emotive sanc eon any issue. For example, there are people whoi enjoy a nice stak or piece chicken wheile there are others who scream 'Meat is Murder'! As for the foetus 'screaming inside' This is I am assuming is another emotive invention as 12 or 16 week old foetuses are not physically capable of screaming inside, outside or anywhere else.

Mabz(KPZ31376) - 13/07/2005 13:24

Ok can you tell me when exactly the soul is created and how i am being over emotive, do you not believe you have a soul? The term is usually associated with something so huge that most people cant comprehend its meaning and well to bring it into an abortion case is just well....crazy. I dont know have you seen a 12 week old foetus. But i have, i recently finished work exp in a pathology dept and a foetus came in for examining after a woman had lost it. Now i wouldnt be the most sensitive person when it comes to dead parts, cells, or humans but what i saw was a baby...clump of cells..no. head, eyes, arms, feet, nose were visable and innocence were clear to me. From seeing that, i cant find even a little justification to taking that away from the world. Maybe i am being too emotional about it, but as far as im concerned we are talking about a life here and in my opinion that is precious.

Anonymous - 13/07/2005 15:46

Mabz, you were the one talkign about a soul so perhaps you can tel me when it is crated. At conception>? At imnplnatation - wich is recognised as the start of pregnancy. At 40 or 80 dats as used to be determind by the church? Alos how can you possibly see inncense in a pathology lab?

Charlotte(MBM29174) - 13/07/2005 17:12

Charlotte (cbreen) The vast majority of people on this site have either aborted or adopted. The vast majority of pro-life groups have no experience of either as well as the pro-choice groups. That leaves everyone here in a differant category and we have fierce similarities. Both of us at some time of the crisis pregnancy have contemplated both options. We could look at this as a road. Both of us have travelled on a straight road up to a certain point. The road then veers right and left. We then make our choice. But we have now become separated. In this site I would love to see those two roads merging together again as one road. Can it be done? What do we need to do or say to achieve this? Can we forget about the titles of pro-life and pro-choice and see where the discussion goes?

Anonymous - 13/07/2005 18:21

well i for one did have an excellent reason, either my life or, both the babies and my life, or i had to choose to have an abortion, and that was what i had to do. i had no choice as the other person put it, due to the fact that i allready had a little girl, who as she was only tiny still needed a mother. so please dont come here saying that everyone has a choice as in some instances they dont. by the way i do hope those that go around telling people they have commited murder or a terrible sin can live with them selves, a good friend who i met through a support group for women who had gone through abortion, commited suicide due to the rubbish you come out with. two of the pro-life group came to one of our meetings and once in their started giving out the vilest of remarks, putting pamphlets on peoples laps, wide open at the pictures, strangely enough just how the other lady described, half formed babies. due to the fact that their were more people outside waiting for us to leave, and pushing and jeering as we left, basically this was more than she could take. that night she commited suicide, in her note she stated she couldnt live with the fact people were calling her a murderer... had my friend wanted an abortion, no, she had been in a very abusive relationship, allready having a miscarriage when her husband battered her so badly that she lost the baby. an injunction didnt work and he broke in and raped her, so an abortion was the only way to ever rid herself of an extremely bad nightmare. no way did she deserve what the anti abortion group put her through, so please dont say their are other alternatives, unless you have been in our shoes and lived through our lives for just two minutes, you know nothing, about us or the circumstances behind our decisions.

Lisa(QHW20454) - 13/07/2005 19:05

Wow! Actually Charlott, I have noticed that you seem to be the most political in the discussion. In fact I would assume you may be involved in Planned Parenthood yourself. I can tell much by the way you speak in your letters. Let me correct the woman who said a 12 week old fetus is a clump of cells. I am asuming that you do not have updated medical info on the facts. 12 Weeks is 3 months, 16 is 4 months. Most abortions occurr in those weeks. The child inside is allready a human form, That means Torso, arms legs hands feet, full intestinal tract, heart, brain etc. Infact babies have been delivered preemee at 4 months and lived. So, this is not true about a clump of cells. I was 4 months pregnant and felt the baby move inside and had an abortion. The days before the abortion I felt so much movement...but of course denied it. I don't know if anyone else is from the US in this discussion. I happened to stumble upon this site looking for info on medical stuff "brain related." I don't frequent sites for the purpose of changing views or political. I read the topics on this site and was moved to share my story. I actually did not respond for some time, since I am very busy lady. You can tell by going back to my initial story. Recently I felt guilty for deleteing the emial notices from this site. Of course I felt guilty because I made a choice to write on this site and since I did not uphold my end of the bargan I felt guilty. Not because of the emails. Guilt can be imposed of course. Those who are not aware of their core values can be manipulated to think they are guilty. We have a mind that can give us feelings of Right and Wrong. Thank God for that. Imagine if we did not. We call those people who do not feel guilty about their actions "Socialpaths." (spelling wrong) Only when we have a good sence of truth can we actually stand up to ourselves when lies are being imposed. Do you know if what you are feeling is actually guilt or remorse or even anger toward hearing "truth?" What is the truth here? If abortion is not wrong than why are we on this site? Do you know any other topic that can create such a stirr? People get heart surgery, brain surgery for tumor removals and they don't cry "its a living person your taking out." Could it be that their is validity to this whole issue of weather or not this is a real person. I am not wanting to focuse so much on the allready chosen path by some women. What has been done, is done. How about focusing on how we got to that point and what changes are made to not get to the abortion clinic in the first place. Do all of you feel 100% sure you will not end up in the clinic again? As far as the woman who mentioned that to relate to this issue that she does not have to have had an abortion. Sorry this is not like being a physician. You can never understand the depth of the issue of this topic and I will say again you basically are just going by assumptions. It is like being a man and saying I understand what it is like being a woman or I know what a woman feels and experiences. I mean to say that women who a involved in the act of incouraging abortion and have never had one should shut up. I remember being told by an abortion clinic nurse that "I will be much more happier after the proceedure." I may have felt relief, but it was the living and the day to day stuff she did not have any clue about. Did you know ladies what a multi milliondollar business this is? In US the charge for an abortion is $300 to $600 and that is without going to the hospital? Once again we have to focuse on those who "profit from this." The men who are getting the better end of the stick and how women are exploiting themselves for men again. Why are you ladies not upset about that? Do you not see how you are being exploited? For Charlott who feels that abortion is better than living in the times of the bible. What do you see different about abortion from then? So Charlott have you ever had an abortion? Once again I do appreciate your boldness to share your name. Charlott are you from the US or Ireland? Lisa

Lisa(QHW20454) - 13/07/2005 19:12

Mabz: I appreciate your medical insight. She knows what she is sharing and you can not deny the facts. As far as soul? I am not saying the child does not. I just feel that we all know that is true. We can argue about that all day and get off the real topic. Do you think that if we believed that if the child in us had a soul that we would make different choices? I truly do not think so. Would we not have an abortion if we knew that the child was in the form of a little baby? I don't think so. Our choices have to do with fear of being rejected and that fear has motivated us to have an abortion. Like I said before "women don't really want abortions." They just feel they have no choices and are motivated by fear and rejection. Did you know that rejection is the process of murder? The act of rejection is not to accept, to put away, deny or cast out...So, we are in turn rejecting because we have been rejected or fear of rejection. Think about it... Lisa

Lisa(QHW20454) - 13/07/2005 23:50

Not to hog this discussion up...but the gal who mentioned that her friend committed suicide. That is too bad but I strongly doubt her suicide had to do with the \"pro-choice people.\" I think living in an extreamly abusive relationship was a big part of it. Her self worth was in shambles. Getting women to get out of those kinds of situations are very difficult to do. Sadly women go back time and time again. Even after they have called the police. To top off her allready shattered self image, she lost a child too. I am sure that was the last thing she desired. I am sure she felt very hopeless and alone. I do not agree with Pro-choice movement. Infact when I saw that kind of group infront of the abortion clinic I went to another. Often those people are very zellious and lack sence and compassion. They feel they are call to rescue but if the chips fall and a woman needed more help than they tend to run off. It is easy to shake posters at people and lay in doorways. It is more difficult to step up and help a woman all the way through their needs. Such as providing a home for them, clothes, food and support. I wonder if women had a place to go if they would seek it out? Once again I say, \"this is not about murder or choice\" it is about exploitation, manipulation, greed and power. Abortion is just the end result of those things. Not to say it is not acceptable but to make clear that we have to go for the root instead of covering problems with band-aids.

Anonymous - 14/07/2005 02:27

To Anon 18.21 Your story was indeed a very sad one. I agree fully with you that groups like these can do more damage than good. While it may have turned out a disaster in this case they just might have stopped others too from having abortions and these people may be eternally grateful to them. Remember some smokers think that the government have done them a favor by introducing the smoking ban! Some people have to be led like sheep in order to make a decision. With regards to your own particular case my mother was also in the same position but she decided to go ahead with the birth. This was going to be her seventh child. It was a long drawn out birth and took an awful lot out of her but thankfully they were both okey. So you do still have a choice as there was in my mothers case. Suicide is a complicated area and many of us have contemplated it at some stage of our lives. All of us here that have aborted and adopted would have especially thought of it. Those of us who have ended up adopting have been in your shoes for two minutes and longer because we were contemplating abortion at one stage of our pregnacies. We met together at the start of that straight road and we too have awful circumstances behind our decisions; In my case it was my boyfriend's mother. She was some pain! Her ugly face and her ugly mouth told me that I was a whore and a slut. That it could'nt possibly be his baby and to GET OUT of her house and to NEVER set foot inside her door again and how she didn't want a whore's child. My boyfriend stood there and never opened his mouth and he avoided me from then on. But it was her ugly face and her ugly tongue that made me make my choice. "If I abort this baby, I would be as bad as her!" This comment is meant as no disrespect to any woman on this site. When I said those words to myself I felt my jaw tightening, I threw punches in the air and I felt the blood rush to my legs. And every time I saw her ugly face I got stronger and stronger! And I would go all the ways (this is what I meant earlier on about fixing problems by seeing them through to the end). My child was going to a great family and wouldn't be stuck in this town with that bitch! And when I was in labour I would catch every labour pain and every scream and send them hurtling in her direction! The irony of it all was that her dirty, ugly words were the making of me. I found a part of myself that I never knew existed and boy, did I like what I saw.... But... I could have easily gone the other way. If I had though I would probably have come from a self-pity mode. Again, this is no disrespect to other people on this site. The self-pity mode was always my mode before this. "No-body loves me. Everybody hates me. I'm not able to do this on my own. Everything would be grand if you didn't come along. It's all your fault! I would have probably followed my boyfriend around like a little lost puppy begging him to talk to me and the tears would have kept coming as he walked away and brushed me aside. I would then get myself probably into a panic and try and get myself back to where I was before this happened. In other words I would have become un-pregnant without looking at the consequences. I would have refused to believe that we were finished at that stage. I am here then to hopefully help women that find themselves in the likes of that position to show you a differant way of looking at a crisis pregnancy.

Anonymous - 14/07/2005 08:39

That may be correct Lisa, but rejection or not, in my opinion, murder is murder and no amount of spin can justify it! As for the clump of cells theory? Is that not what we all are? If its not a baby then your not pregnant!

Anonymous - 14/07/2005 08:43

Mabz, head, eyes, arms, feet, nose etc. do not make a baby. In fact at 12 weeks gestation, a human foetus looks very much like the foetus of another large primate. However, seeing as you regard him or her (I'm not sure if you said it was a boy or girl but I'm sure your agree that that is an innate part of human-ness) as a person in their own right with a soul, did you then afford it the same dignity as any other person who has passed away. Did you return him or her to their Mother or father for a funeral? Or if the Mum was too ill or upset, did you yourself see that it had all the rites associated with a Christian burial which would be accorded to any Christian who had passed away? I would be extremely interested in your answer.

Anonymous - 14/07/2005 09:02

No Lisa, I don't feel that women are being exploited by or for men. Most nurses at abortion clinics and many aneasthetists are women. Do you feel that the lady who had an abortion becuase continuing her pregnaancy would have killed her, was being exploited by men? Or how about the women who had an abortion following battery and rape? As a previous poster said, most por-lifers, by their nature have never had an abortion, so how could they possibly know what they are talking about. By the way, you are wrogn about premie's being deleivered at 4 months, The eralist recoded premie delivery who survived was 21 ansd 1/2 weeks. A foetus at 12 weeks is not a fully formed person, that is why they do not survive if the woman has spontaneous premature labour at 12 weeks.

Anonymous - 14/07/2005 11:07

Lisa and Anon yu either did not read that lady's post o you are choosing to ignore it. She did NOT have an abortion because of rejection. She DID NOT have a choice. Another baby would have KILLED her. How often does she need to say this before you choose to understand. Many women have abortions not because of rejection but for mental or physcial reasons they cannot handle a(nother) pregnancy. Why do some of you refuse to see this?

Anonymous - 14/07/2005 11:09

Anon: 18:21 - Congratulations on your bravery and for standing up and making your point. I believe that some doctors have said that there is no medical reason ever for abortion and that there is no circumstances where they can\'t save the life of the mother and the baby. I feel that your circumstances and those perhaps of others, show that this is not the case.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 14/07/2005 11:51

To: Lisa (QHW20454) I am Irish, living, working, paying tax and social insurance in Ireland. I do not now, nor have I ever worked for any planned parenthood group or organisation. I am a trained librarian, hence my interest in distributed and accurate information. I've never had a crisis pregnancy but have provided all forms of crisis pregnancy information for other people. In my early 20s, a small few friends of mine went through crisis pregnancies and my interest in this discussion stems from that time and is to help anyone else in this situation to find relevent, factual information on their options, or post- whatever decision they make, to access support networks. My personal interest is by virtue of being female and capable of getting pregnant and potentially having to face these decisions. My political "axe to grind", is one of clearing misinformation and providing information (unbiased and factual) in a non-judgmental way. If I seem to judgmental to you and your cohorts, it is not because of your beliefs (which I believe to be wrong, but your choice), but because of your methods, which are based on emotive and misrepresented facts. What is currently happening is the hijacking of this discussion so as the cause fear and anger. I find your methods underhanded and reprehensible. As to your final comments, I have always used my name when posting to any of the discussions I've been involved in on this site, on issues of privacy and medical testing of refugees, smoking, depression etc. Generally speaking, my interests are in issues of factual information, equality issues and regulation in how people can access and use information. On a professional level, I develop filing systems. Now having declared my background, interests and any biases, would you care to declare your own?

Anonymous - 14/07/2005 12:38

the medical facts behind my case is that i have a lung problem c.o.p.d. which was only diagnosed when i had my first child. i spent a great deal of that pregnancy on oxygen, 12 hours a day as my lungs could not take the extra weight of the baby and towards the end of the pregnanacy five months onwards i was hospitalised and on oxygen all the time. so please dont say that doctors can do anything these days, as in quite a few cases they cant. even now i need quite a few operations but the hospital refuse to do them, because of the risk of my dying under the anaesthtic. it was 18 years ago that i had my daughter. so times havent changed that much, nor have medical improvements. my friend wasnt scared he may come back as he was in prison at that time, nor did she ever go back to him, he chased her the whole time until his imprisoment, i think you purposely misunderstood that, so the only person rejected was him. her whole family were behind her having the abortion, as they knew he would have a reason to bother her if she kept the child, also everytime she looked at the baby she would of remembered the rape, and the beatings, twice he had left her for dead. no the only reason she commited suicide was that she couldnt handle people spitting in her face, pushing her and calling her a murderer. what i wonder is and i have asked the pro lifers this before. you scream and shout about people keeping their babies, but where are yours and why arent you with them when you are at the abortion clinics or handing out pamphlets.. you demand people keep theirs so much and yet you seem to spend so little time with your own.

zina(ZKW31467) - 14/07/2005 18:20

If only is such an easy word to say, but when it is in concern to abortion it becomes such a complex and hard to understand matter. If only i hadn't had some much to drink that night that we didn't use contraceptives, or. if only we earned more money or had more family support.or that we hadn't just split up.... if only, if only, if only ,so many reasons, but just one outcome. heartbreak and years of soul searching and never feeling self-forgiveness. The only thing that I may suggest to those who condem is never try to think how others feel, as the pain is too deep to imagine. Zina

Lisa(QHW20454) - 14/07/2005 19:40

Ok, I will try and remember all that has been written. My response or lack of is only due to the fact that I did not remember what was said. Sorry Ladies. While I have this one in my mind I will give you this factual info...According to the American Academy of Pediatrics, experts in neonatal resuscitation support the decision not to resuscitate infants born at less than 23 weeks' gestation, 400 g (0.9 lb), or both.1 Some doctors recommend trying to resuscitate all 23- to 25-week newborns and basing treatment decisions on how well an infant responds.2 Very few infants survive birth at 22 weeks' gestation, and most are offered "comfort care" instead of intensive care. In a study of 138 such infants who survived birth, two survived hospitalization; at 30 months after birth, one child had severe long-term disability and one did not.3 Children have survived at 4 months but had they lived long is the question? The youngest preemie who has survived is on this site http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5748130/ S0 this is true! Now the women who had abortions for medical reasons. I am first not saying you should not have. I too have medical reasons that if I do get pregnant will end my life. I did have two children not by plan and failded contraception and mananged to live. This was not easy but I truly do not want to relive it. My husband is now fixed! So lets hope it stays that way. I have herd stories of incest and extream abuse. I can only imagine what horror those people experience. In other countries it is more prevelent. In fact I was watching the news and they did a report on women in the Tansanea or Africa. These women were repeatedly raped by terrorist who destroy their camps and kid in front of them. I was amazed at one woman who had a child born as a result of a gang rape. She said, "it is not the childs fault." Women their can kill their kids if they choose if this happens. I want to mention, most abortions are sought by women who are not in those situations. Now back to the rejection murder theory. Websters Dictionary states...(Refuse to grant or consider, refuse to admit, believe, or receive, throw out as useless or unsatisfactory, rejected person or thing.) Sounds like abortion to me. The aborted child is throwen in the trash after the proceedure. The aborted child is refused or granted the ability to form in the womb. Abortionist refuse to admit, or believe that they are killing a viable child. As far as women who seek abortions and do not feel rejected. I am just saying that abortion is rejection of a human to fully finish it's journy into life on earth. Now saying this Charlott wanted to know my Bio. Glad you asked. I come from an affluent family and for me to have an unplanned pregnancy was an imbarrasment. I would say I fit into the catigory of the average woman seeking abortion. This does not mean I agree with my past actions. I am a high functioning Autistic, Savant. I also had a congenetal brain tumor removed at age 25. Reason for my poor spelling and memory. I have had 5 abortions. Mostly a result of not using contraception and guy did not want me after he found out. My religious affielation has been a mix of Catholic, menonite, Seventday Adventist, Morman, Lutheran and Witch Craft. I went to all those churches as a child with the freiends who took me. I had relatives who practiced some of those religions. Not one gave me peace or resolution as to the many questions I had about why the hell are we here. One day I was depressed, after my last abortion and I continplated suicide. I began drinking and then decided I would pray to God, Mary and Jesus. I said, "hey folks I am sick of living on this earth, and I see no real reason why I should continue." Not being a complete idiot I though, "what if I am wrong and I find myself in pergetory or worse if I kill myself?" So I decided to ask the trio for a week to prove to me they exist or to show me I am wrong about my conslusion. Do you think I got my answer? I am here right now...My answer is a ture living amazement...I may tell you later if you are interested. Oh, I am a blood bought child of God. Yet, I do not adhear to any specific religion or church. That my bother some. I am not part of any pro-life org. I used to think I should but felt that the answere to the problem is not being addressed. Like I said many times before we have to get to the root cause. I do have college education and my field of study is Art. I paint murals and all kinds of things. I am married to an US Airforce Officer with 3 kids, 2 horses, 2dogs, 1 catdog and anyone else I can drag into my world. I would love to learn more about the rest of the gang...Lisa

Charlotte(MBM29174) - 15/07/2005 00:02

Charlotte (my own namesake) Providing facts are all very fine but can you tap into the fact that emotion plays a huge part in this debate. I serve alcohol. I know the facts behind alcohol and I know what it can do. If someone is very drunk then I will refuse to serve that person any more drink. In other words, that person cannot handle any more. If a woman is extremely emotional at a clinic, I have heard one poster commenting that the nurse told her that she would be relieved when it was all over. But I would see that in the same way as the drunken person. If that woman is extremely emotional than she is not able for this abortion and the abortion should be refused. Are the staff in these clinics aware of this emotion or are they told to just say a certain sentence and just get on with the abortion. Do they too just look at the facts, stand back and not get involved? Is this non-judgemental attitude only covering up for something else? The thought possibly being. "I'll give them the facts all right. They can then have the abortion if they want it.....once it is not me! Being non-judgemental is like passing the book onto someone else in my eyes.

Anonymous - 15/07/2005 01:30

Isn\'t it interesting that people who want a baby say they are \"having a baby\" when they find themselves pregnant, and those who don\'t want a baby say it is a bunch of cells? There have been some very good points raised in recent postings... In my opinion, there are also some people on this site who seem very clinical and cold and so sure they are right, but, they could be wrong. You don\'t know all the answers and you certainly don\'t know all the facts regarding the development of a foetus. You can hear the tiny baby’s heartbeat at 6 weeks, incredible! A living, human- being. People don\'t want to know that their pregnancy is a baby. This then leaves them free to go ahead and have an abortion. Why are there so many pregnancies where babies are unwanted? Stop getting pregnant. If a foetus is just a clump of cells then why is there so much pain, suffering and loss Please don\'t tell me I don\'t know what I am talking about, I have had an abortion and I am an adopted person also.

Anonymous - 15/07/2005 03:01

Why is the baby reminding you of the rape and beatings? Is it because you think that the baby will turn out like the rapist? Will the baby not turn out like you at all? Can the baby not be looked on as the one good thing that came out of this rape? I feel that two wrongs can never make a right. Are you only putting yourself through far more torture by taking this route? What about people who get divorced? Are they too supposed to walk away from their children just because they remind them of a bad marraige?

Lisa(QHW20454) - 15/07/2005 05:44

Hey I did not ignore the gals message about having an aborion to save a life. That is a no brainer. I realize in rare circumstances for the sake of the mother a life for a life. This is done by regular doctors not abortionist. I am personally not trying to make that kind of decision a guilt trip for anyone.

Anonymous - 15/07/2005 08:41

Zina, the if only's are very very real for most people. If only I wasn't too ill to cope with this pregnanacy - that cannot be changed. If only we could afford a baby - often times that connot be changed either. If only I had not been raped - this alos cannot be changed. Sometimes the constant soul sarching can only impound the guilt we have heaped upon ourselves and this path will not lead to self-forgiveness. Counselling (non-relgious) helps many women to accept themselves and any mistakes they have made, to accept that they did what they thought was the best thing at the time and to let go of the past as we cannot change it.

Anonymous - 15/07/2005 11:47

Lisa, again you use the emotive language of \'killing kids\'. This DOES NOT HELP other women. It is neither a legal nor medical defintion. Also, in you own country, statistics report that only 1% of abortions are performed over 34 weeks and mainly due to the health or life of the mother so your point about valid foetuses is lacking. There is no stats for Ireland as the 7000 iriah abpirtions performed annually are done so outside this jurisdiction.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 15/07/2005 11:56

To the last poster; If I am one of the people you think are being clinical, I apologise for any upsat caused. My point of view would be similar to your own. I firmly believe the answer to this IS to stop crisis pregnancies by 'stopping people getting pregnant' until and unless they want to. And I truly believe that, unless we all become celibate (which is possible, but highly improbable) then education and contraception correctly applied, are the only current answers.

Anonymous - 15/07/2005 12:01

People who are terminating their pregnaancies do not say they are 'having a baby' precisely because they are not having a baby. A heartbeat does not make a baby.

Anonymous - 15/07/2005 12:03

To Anon 03:01 - yes for some women the face of that child will forever remind them of he face of the rapist. Your comparison between divorce and rape is so untrue as to be almost farcical, I beleive.

Anonymous - 15/07/2005 12:07

Lisa your comparison between an "abortionist" and a 'regular doctor' is over-simplitic. An obsgyn perforrms abrtions. An obsgyn delivers babies. The doctor who perfoms abortions to save a womens life is he same as a dostor who performs abortions for socioeconomic reasons.

Anonymous - 15/07/2005 14:58

Anon:3:01 How can you say that the comparison between a rape and a divorced couple is farcical. A lot of married women have claimed that they were raped and beaten throughout their married lives. The divorce comes about from finally having the courage to change their lives for the better. Are they then to walk away from the kids that this farcical marraige produced?

Charlotte(MBM29174) - 15/07/2005 15:12

To Zina : 8:41 I thought the piece you wrote was so beautiful. It was put so simply and yet there was something so striking about it. I could feel the pain behind it so plainly and it really hit a note. Please don't think that we are condeming you on this site. It is you who are teaching us. More than anything in the world we would give anything to stop this pain. In those simple words I heard the mother plainly as well as the child. Please read the comments carefully, try to push the condemnation aside. Read every post three or four times. There is nothing any more to feel guilty about. All we want is to really and truly find a better way. Well done!

Mabz(KPZ31376) - 15/07/2005 18:50

First of all the fact that you regard a 12 week old foetus as not making a baby proves to me that you have not seen one up close at all. Im unaware whether it was a boy or girl as genitals dont form until after the 12 week stage, well on the outside anyways. This baby was held so delicately in the doctors hand and was treated with the utmost respect. Even though it was clearly not alive it was treated as if it was. Everyone was so concerned, wondering why this child had lost its life. It was referred to as a child because if you saw it thats all it was, all everyone wanted to do was help find out the reasoning behind this loss for the mother. it turned out that it was due to liver failure. And i was only on work experience and i am not qualified to take the foetus back to its mother and give it the propar burial that it deserved. All i know was that it was passed onto another lab for further testing and i dont know its wareabouts after that. I do think that every child regardless of age should be buried, but in this day and age we are not willing to plough in money to this area. With reference to your description of the foetus looking like another large primate, well im sorry but i could not see that at all. I was in touching distance of it and my eyes could only see a little child.

pol(GTL31519) - 15/07/2005 19:36

I don't agree with abortion.

Anonymous - 16/07/2005 22:07

To Anon 11:07 Lisa answered your question about the woman who had no choice as a no-brainer. I would look on it as a test. Maybe God wanted to work a miracle through her. My mother believes that Padre Pio was with her at the birth and this is why she survived. A belief in God can be very handy.

Anonymous - 18/07/2005 09:12

Anon - in a situation where childbirth means death for the mother, you would look on it a a test / the chance of a miravcle where belief in God "handy". In my view it is this kind of utter rubbish that is at the heart of legislation which requoites women at risk tro travel to another jusisdiction for a possibly life-saving opeation.

Anonymous - 18/07/2005 09:16

Pol (I trust from your name that you're male) you may not agree with it in principle but what happens if it's your wife / partner, sister or daughter who's having a crisis pregnancy.

Anonymous - 18/07/2005 10:17

Sorry but i do beleive in god, but i also happen to know when i need oxygen to survive, have you ever felt like you were choking to death or that every breath you took was going to be your last ? That is how i feel everyday. Excuse me but their was no way I was going to allow my daughter to grow up without a mother. Just in case you didnt know, emphysema, and severe asthma, are also forms of c.o.p.d., (chronic obstructive pulmonary disorder) and the lungs cant cope very well with added strain of pregnancy . But as for beleiving, sorry but you are talking to someone who went to a catholic boarding school run by daughters of the cross nuns in torquay. so it is nothing to do with my not having a faith, just not liking the idea of dying to soon. By the way as for a miracle their wasn't any for my father who also beleived in the same saint as your mother and he had to have a brain tumour removed in 1982 he was thirty six. We buried him two weeks after his thirty- seventh birthday. so sorry but dont preach to me about having faith as your words are falling on deaf ears. But why am i wasting my time when you are probably to blind to see what i am trying to say to you and in this case i wont bother trying to explain to you anymore.

Anonymous - 18/07/2005 10:18

The comparison between divorce and abortion is farcical becuase the parent will most likely always have eithger access or visitation right to their children and mostly (for right or wrong) the ,mosther will have custody.

Anonymous - 18/07/2005 17:38

Anon:10:17 Regarding your father. I think think that death doesn\'t necessarily mean that there was no miracle. What stunned me most in your post was that you said your father died of a brain tumour in 1982. It was the 1982 that caught my eye. My first son was born the following year and was diagnosed as having a brain tumor at nine months! I was told at the time that the tumor was in a dangerous position and thankfully a new scanner that had been in the hospital only a few months previously had detected precisely where the tumor was. It was a 6 hour operation and thanks be to God he survived. They didn\'t get all the tumor, they could only take a piece. Eventually over the years the tumor shrunk until it could be seen no more. You can dismiss it if you like.

Anonymous - 18/07/2005 17:46

No the comparison between divorce and abortion is not farcical if the woman involved claims that she was raped thoroughout their marriage. Therefore the children would be seen as rapist\'s children. In these cases the mother did not turn her back on these children. She continued to rear them because they were a part of herself.

Anonymous - 18/07/2005 20:00

Anon 1:30 If a person was to take the route of adoption instead of abortion could you please leave us know what your thoughts are on this. I'm not trying to go off the subject but I would love to know what an adopted person's perspective on life is.

Anonymous - 18/07/2005 22:31

Mazb, i agree totally when you say a foetus is recognisable as a child at 12 weeks,its also in any pregnancy/medical book you read. I have a friend who is a nurse and she was present when a woman lost her baby at 16 weeks and she said it was unbelieveable to see how far formed the CHILD was, it most definitely wouldnt be mistaken for a clump of cells or anything else. she said it was a beautiful wee baby.

Anonymous - 19/07/2005 11:25

Lisa, according to your link http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5748130/ thre youngest premie to survive (U.S. stats) was born at 27 weeks. Well outside the time limit for Irish women seekign abortion as they usually seek it in Britain where the limit is 24 weeks.

Anonymous - 19/07/2005 11:26

Yes, but a foetus is distinctly better developed at 16 weeks (3 and 1/2 months) that at 12 weeks.

Mabz(KPZ31376) - 19/07/2005 14:52

At 16 weeks obviously a foetus is more developed when it was, but you wouldnt believe the extent to which it is developed at 12 weeks.

Anonymous - 20/07/2005 00:29

Naturally a foetus is better developed at 16 weeks but as i previously said you are correct mabz it is certainly well developed at 12 weeks.During pregnancy a scan is routinely done at 12 weeks and the sonographor can measure the babys head etc to give an estimated date of delivery,i had a scan with my baby at 12 wks and it wasnt a bunch of cells i saw on the monitor. Im almost sure that the youngest premature baby to survive was less than 27 weeks,i stand to be corrected but i read of babies surviving at 22 and 23 weeks gestation. I very recently went into premature labour at 29 weeks and was transferred to a neo-natal hospital here in ireland,they gave me 2 injections to mature the babys lungs and a drip to try to stop the contractions,i was upset,naturally,but the staff told me not to worry that they had delivered babies a lot younger and they survived, the specialised hospitals have great facilities to deal with premature babies. Also i have a friend who lost her baby at 19 weeks and the staff said if she was a couple of weeks further on the childs chances of survival would be greatly enhanced and yes she did bury her baby. And someone said that abortions are carried out up to 24 weeks,that is the most cruel thing ive read recently on this site, jez it surely is a wee baby by then and no one can argue with that. Plus medically a foetus is viable at 20/22 weeks(books vary), that means its possible for it to survive outside the womb with good medical care.

Mabz(KPZ31376) - 20/07/2005 02:49

I have a couple of adopted friends and i guess they are the postive side of an adoption because they hold no hatred or abandoned feeling towards their parents. They knew it was different back then, although not so differnt really, but there was a bigger restrict on the ways and means and acceptance. They understand that the option to raise their child the way they truly wanted was near to impossible and adoption was the best option as it should be over abortion i think. Most of them have recently met up with their parents and some have very close relationships with them which is brilliant.

Anonymous - 20/07/2005 09:04

To Anon17.38. I am very happy to hear your son survived and is well. Sadly they thought my fathers operation was going to be straight forward, and that it to was in a safe place. But when they opened the skull the tumour mushroomed up and was far larger than they had thought and as they put it to my mother their was nothing they could do. After the operation in the november 1982, until his death in march 1983, he could neither move properley nor talk, which left him extremely frustrated, the only thing he could move was one arm. But I have heard many cases where their has been good outcomes for brain tumour operations in those times, maybe my father was just unlucky, well this isn't the topic for this forum, just thought I would answer you, I am pleased your son is okay, any who survive that show others it can be beaten when they come up against it.

Anonymous - 20/07/2005 10:45

Anon, 00,29 I also thought that there wasa record of a neonate surviving at 21 amd half weeks (not in Ireland but that's not the point) but I could be wrong. Mabz, clearly adoption is better for the child that abortion would have been but I think maybe ytou are missing the point. Abortion was not as accessible to woemn havign babies outside marriage in Ireland prior to 1960's. And conditions weren't available to allow the women to bring up the child herself. However, I think he reasons differ for abortion and adoption. Woman who pace heir child for adoption is not ina poisition to be a mother at that time for whatevr reason and feels that this is the absolute best she can do for her child. In the case of abortion, not only is the woman no ina postion to be a mother, she also does not want to be pregnant, for whatever reason. As a point of interest, I have three friends who are adopted. 2 have made conact with their birht mothers. The other experieces a keen sense of loss/lonliness/emptiness - she can't quite explain it. She spent many many years trying to trace her birth mother without success and when she eventually got all the informaiton she needed her borth mother had died without the tow of them ever even meeting or seeing one another.

Anonymous - 20/07/2005 11:38

Anon:10:45 Can the amount of time that you carry a child to birth be looked on as a lesson of commitment? Nine months out of a person's life is very little afterwards. In the case of abortion you are really only thinking of six months. The first three months are taken up with the travelling and the abortion. What is wrong with the other six months? Why can you not carry through with the birth? Are you genuinely afraid of the actually birth itself? Giving birth has come along way from the time that I gave birth to the child that I adopted. The amount of care you get is far superior and is pain free because of epidurals. Do you think that you will be safer if you have an abortion? Or do you think that you cannot face giving your child away to someone else?

Charlotte(cbreen) - 20/07/2005 11:47

This entire discussion has now been taken over by those with no intention of supporting those who may arrive here looking for something other than a morality lesson and highly inaccurate statements about successful premature births.It would seem to be the belief of some submitters that biology is all. That ultimately, women are here on the planet to produce babies. However, abortion has been a factor in human population control for thousands of years. Women in antiquity had significant control over their reproductive lives. And up until the invention of viable and reliable contraception, it was the only method of population control. Denying reproductive rights in Ireland saw women having families of 15 children on a regular basis. And here's what it boils down to. You either support the right of every woman to reproductive freedom .ie. the right to control how and when she gets pregnant, or you deny that right.I support the rights of any woman to have 15+ children, so long as she and her partner can support them in a humane way (i.e. cloth, educate, feed and provide for them). I also support the rights of a woman to have no children, if that is her choice. Where contraception fails, a woman has the right to choose not to be pregnant. For those who would argue to will of god as having a hand in every pregnancy, keep in mind that the will of god created the many natural substances used to prevent and terminate pregnancy.

Anonymous - 20/07/2005 12:47

Can you explain what you mean by "a lesson of commitment" sure, six months out of persons life is very little time but it is what happens in those six monhts that matters to the woman. Why can a woman not carry through with the birth? Yes, there are some are genuinely afraid of the actual birth itself. Granted it has come along way in terms of care but remember an epidural, if it is available (it is not always so in certain rural hospitals), suitable and if it works, can only be given in the latter stages of labour (as early epidurals can slow down the birth process) so the woman still has a considerable amount of pain to endure before that - so it is hardly pain free. (naturally if a woman wants her child so much as many mothers do, the pain is quickly forgotten but not so if she doesn't want the child and never wanted the pregnanacy in the first place) injections, gas and air only take the edge off the pain. Actually yes, even the u.s. early trimester abortion (up to 12 weeks) is 11 times safer than childbirth. Yes, for some women, having endured childbirth, the emotional trauma of giving up their child is something that they cannot face.

Anonymous - 20/07/2005 12:49

Well said Charlotte. Thank you for bringing this discussion back into line. In my opinion many people (or a certain persuasion) who seek to ban abortion outright will have the mornign after pill and perhaps untimately contraceptive right as their next target. We miust guad against this long and hard fought for right.

Anonymous - 20/07/2005 17:21

To Charlotte (cbreen) There you go again! Giving out mixed messages! In your post 11:56 you told the last poster that your view was similar to your own. In your post 11:47 you support a woman's right to not be pregnant. What a contradiction! If you don't like this discussion why don't you just stick with your post-abortion counscelling one. Or is the other one too boring for you. You'd prefer to come back here and attack us! Grow up!

Charlotte(cbreen) - 20/07/2005 18:56

To Anonymous:20/07/2005 17:21, my reference to similar views was actually in relation to Anonymous Posted: 15/07/2005 01:30, but due to delay between submittal and publishing to the site, it came out of order. My views have in fact been the same throughout this discussion. I advocate education and contraception to avoid the need for abortion, but where that need exists, I support 100% a woman's right to choose. I myself am not a counseller. And I've not been away. I've been a participant in this discussion since 18/01/2002.

Mabz(KPZ31376) - 21/07/2005 00:06

Do you know what i cant understand is women who say they dont want or cant be pregnant....well then dont have sex. it is actually that simple...because we all the consequences of not being safe during sex...you might imagine actually get preganant. I mean dont go to war if your not willing to get hurt etc.... And of course some will say, you cant just not have sex, well take all precautions if you dont want to be preganant....it will only take a couple of minutes or hours over a lifetime of an unwanted kid.

Anonymous - 21/07/2005 01:11

anon 12:47,do you mean that every woman who finds themselves in a crisis pregnancy will not forget the pain and somehow resent the child for it because i was in a crisis pregnancy and did not want to be pregnant and did not want a child but when i gave birth the pain was quickly forgotten and overcome with protectiveness and love for that child, its a mothers natural instinct. An epidural can be pre-booked so you can choose a hospital that provide them and to the best of my knowledge most hospitals do nowadays, we dont have rural hospitals as such. ive given birth twice without(15yrs ago) and once with an epidural and i would consider it to be as good as pain free with it, yeah sure theres some degree of pain but its very manageable. I do not totally agree with abortion but the pain factor is an insult to any woman who has one, im sure theres a very very small percentage of them that do so because there afraid of the pain.

Anonymous - 21/07/2005 08:41

Anon 17.21, in her earlier post Charlotte said that she believed that the answer to this is to stop crisis pregnancies by stopping people getting pregnant until and unless they want to. In the post to which you refer she supported a womands right not to be pregnant. I don\'t see any contradiction whatsoever there. Nor do I see that she is attacking anyone.

Anonymous - 21/07/2005 11:46

Mabz, you ae being particualrly simplistic in your statement - \'if you don\'t want to become pregnant don\'t have sex\'. Are you saying that just because I am a woman I don\'t have the right to trust the medication i take - i.e contraceptive pills. Are you sayign that when a womans family is complete at say 25 years of age (be it at 0 children or 10) she doesn\'t have the right to have sex ever again??

Anonymous - 21/07/2005 11:49

Mabz, you say \'take all precautions if you dont want to be preganant\'. Well I ahve soem news for ou. Pills don\'t always work, coils slip out, gynafix come loose, condoms split and even on very rare occasions tubal poperation do not work out as planned. Are you saying that we should all give up sex once our family is complete?

Anonymous - 21/07/2005 11:56

Anon: 1.11, anon 12:47, I never said that every woman who finds themselves in a crisis pregnancy will not forget the pain, in fact I know many women who gave birth to much wanted much loved children who still emember the pain many many years later) nor did I say that a womwn would resent her child for it. Read my post again. Remember a mohers natural instinct regardign bonding does not happen for every woman. Pegnancy and childbirth do not solely make a mothering instinct. An epidural can be pre-booked - but in many rural (yes, we do hve them) hospitals, only if you go private, which sojme woemn may not have the resources for. Believe me, childbirth fear is far from an insult but very real for certain women. Yes it is (to my knowledge a small percentage)butt those women still need to be acknowledge and catered and cared for.

Mabz(KPZ31376) - 21/07/2005 17:01

No i am not saying dont have sex once your family is complete, there it is again, me being misunderstood again. Read between the lines, it actually is that simple. i am only too aware that some contraceptions dont work, but in some cases the child to be has defied 2 or 3 forms of contraception, for my friend is was the pill, condom and morning after pill and she was only 20. that was such a big deal, how could the 3 of them not work, she looked on it as this child needs to be born. Not ahh this didnt work, im too young, dont want to pregnant. she was in a crisis, a big one at that and she still persevered and had the child even though some were screaming at her to have an abortion. I am simply saying, that if you are going to have sex, you mus know as all of ye do, that there is a chance that you might concieve and with that knowledge to protect yourself and not bring a unwanted baby into the world where its only fate to some is death.

Anonymous - 21/07/2005 21:33

Charlotte (cbreen) Could you please tell me why you were given a womb. My understanding is that a womb is for producing babies. Some people think that women are not baby-producing machines. If that is the case why have you got a womb? We are not talking about producing tons of kids either - we are talking about one at the time here. The child that is about to be aborted. If you genuinely do not ever want kids there is the option of getting properly sterilised or even your womb taken out. A womb is something to be very proud of and is part of being a woman. I have noticed a lot of talk about foetuses and their stages of development. Is the mother shown her aborted baby afterwards or would this be too horrific to show. Do these women have to go and do research after the abortion or is everything shown clearly to them beforehand. Are they being educated enough about what exactly abortion is all about including all the gory details that go with it.

Lisa(QHW20454) - 21/07/2005 22:50

In America their is 1 abortion to every 3 women. The age for abortions are highest at 13-17 and peek at 22. Often the younger gals do not recognize that they are far along and often wait till they are in their 3rd and 4th month when getting an abortion. 12 weeks is when abortion is sought, but often the decision is made by the 16th week and up. In addition, those who have abortions at a younger age often repeat abortions 3 and 5 times. This is a result not of rape/life and death... but because of promiscouious activity. American women lack self esteem. You see it in our ad, TV and life styles. In a sence American Men have lost respect for the women in America because they are so easy. American men look outside the US for mates because many women in other cultures have morals and values. Women in America tend to be more self centered not wanting to be mothers but have careers. How is it in your country?

Anonymous - 22/07/2005 01:35

Anon 11:56 The last thing that I would want is a woman to have to go through an abortion. But I have to sincerely agree with you on this one. I can fully understand that there is a very real fear of giving birth. Talk down through the years has always been about the dreadful pains that follow child birth. Television is a fright! There is always an excruciating look on the mother's face and even though they show it fairly accurately it could turn some women off. I can also understand how some women may have a problem handing over a child as it was in my case... but times were differant then. I was left completely on my own in the labour ward with no gas or anything until the very last minute! I was terrified. When the baby was born I had to ask what it was. The reply was a gruff "It's a boy." They then just whipped him away and I never got to hold him. After two days I was allowed to see him through a glass window but again I could never hold him. But somehow I got through that part because I had my mind made up when I was carrying him. I felt stronger though after giving birth as painful and lonely as it was. I was differant somehow in a really good way and it is this feeling that I would urge any woman to strive for.

Anonymous - 22/07/2005 08:40

Mabz, you have exactly proven my point when you said that in some 2 or 3 forms of contraception have failed. So again, I ask, does that mean that we don't have the right to have sex unless we are prepared to get pregnant? We should not have the right to trust the medication or medical procedures we have withoiut recourse to a backup mthod? What a simple world you live in. So for many women that would mean only having sex 2 or 3 times until they are safely past the menopause. I sure you an see that that simply is not going to happen

Anonymous - 22/07/2005 10:47

Every female of every species is given a womb. Women are given a womb so that they have he OPTION of having a baby, or 3 babies or 10 babies IF they WANT to. NOT for them to becoem baby making machines. THAT DAY, THANKFULLY, IS LONG GONE IN THIS COUNTRY. I have strong athletic muscles - why was I given these muscles? Does that mean I HAVE to be an athlete?. NO. It means I have the OPTION to, if I want to. A womb is not something to be proud of or not proud of, it\'s is simply part of our biology - like muscles, string bones etc. If I genuinely do not ever want kids there is the option of getting properly sterilised - birth carries risks. Why should I UNDERGO unneccessary surgery. BESIDES, IT WILL NOT BE CARRIED OUT ON WOMEN UNDER 35 IN THIS COUNTRY WHO haVE NO CHLDREN. NO- hysterectomy is not a surgical option to avoid pregnanacy. It is done for medical problems - uterine cancer, inoperable fibroids etc. We don\'t use our appendix., That doesn\'t mean every person should have it surgically removed - unless of course it makes one ill. No- the mother is not shown her aborted foetus afterwards. NO these women DO NOT have to go and do research after the abortion. They do have to recive counselling beforehand. As for education, well - and this in my personal experience. wHEN I was in secondary school, only 15 years ago, the school (an all girls convent school) had the option of showing us a video depicting abortion. They refused to do so because \"we don\'t need any of that sort of thing here\". Bear in mind that two 5th years andone 6th year student were pregnant at the time. 1 of the 3 went on to have her baby.

Anonymous - 22/07/2005 10:53

I don\'t see women who choose careers instead of having babies (or indeed in addition to) as self centred. Afterall men have been doign it for years. Are they self centred to? I think you are missing the entire point completely when you say that young women who have abortion repeat the behaviour due to promiscuity. I feel I must correct your point., Women have repeat abortions thru lack of information and education. For example texas is now promoting abstinance only programs but the state of Texas has the highest teen pregnancy rate.

Anonymous - 22/07/2005 13:29

Maybe the other two girls would have gone on to have their babies if they had seen the video on abortion. Surely a woman should be shown exactly what is involved in an abortion so that she can fully make her choice. And maybe she should also be shown a video on a birth itself. At least the woman would be given the full truth which is the most impotant in my eyes. A false picture is been shown at the moment and this is not fair on the woman I believe. The whole truth and nothing but the truth is the only way to go. On the internet at the moment you can see pictures of aborted babies. For women who have had abortions and find such pictures afterwards would find this extremely disturbing. This isn't fair at all to them.

Anonymous - 22/07/2005 17:03

Anon 10:47 I'd say that your strong athletic muscles are for walking actually. You could say it about eyes and ears all right. You have the OPTION to see what you want to see and you have the OPTION to hear what you want to hear. I'm not sure about the bowel though!It is probably very essential... Your heart... well... I doubt if you could live without that! Your hair... you have the OPTION of shaving it off as you have with hair on any other part of your body as well as your nails. Is there any more? At least with your womb you have the OPTION of producing one of the most beautiful creatures in the world!

Mabz(KPZ31376) - 22/07/2005 21:43

I am not saying that anyone should not have sex once there family is made etc...All i am saying is that even though ye're family is made etc...and by chance you get pregnant and dont want to be that does not warrant an abortion. If you have ur family raised etc and want to have sex but not get preganant there are options there that can allow this to happen. I just dont think the death of a child should be one of them

Anonymous - 25/07/2005 09:20

Anon 13.29 - Yes, maybe the other girl would have gone on to have her babies if she had seen the video on abortion. To be honest, both childbirth vidoes I saw as a young girl, put me off the idea of ever having a child.

Anonymous - 25/07/2005 09:23

Anon 17:03. Actually, our appendix is not essential, which I why we can live without if it is neccessary to remove it. Preciselty, as I said - with your womb you have the OPTION of producing a baby.

Anonymous - 25/07/2005 09:24

Sadly for many people, an unwanted pregnaancy does warrant abortion. Yes, as you saythere are means of preventing it. Bit these do not always work - hence the recource to abortion.

Anonymous - 25/07/2005 17:05

I believe that there should be a large fine for men that put women into a crisis pregnancy situation. If a smoker can get fined so much money for having a smoke in the wrong place what is wrong with fining men for making a girl pregnant. Paternity testing could first be established and it would make men think twice about cajoling some girlfriends into having sex with them. It is about time that the resposibily was thrown back unto men and show them that they CANNOT walk off and leave the girl with the baby. Hit them in their pocket and hit them hard! Women have had to put up with this for far too long. A 10,000 fine would be a nice start don't you think and if they are under 18 the parents should pay. Even the threat of one could easily prevent a lot of crisis pregnancies. Enough is enough I say!

Charlotte(cbreen) - 25/07/2005 18:13

Takes two to tango. Both partners should be involved in any penalties, surely. To say a man 'makes' a woman pregnant implies a scarily passive role on the woman's part. Certainly, if two people are going to have consentual sex, contraception is the responsibility of both, as are any ensuing pregnancies.

Lisa(QHW20454) - 25/07/2005 23:28

So what your saying about people who have abortions are just too dumb to understand why they repeat it? Bull ----! I knew and so did the many other women friends I had, what we were doing. We knew the truth about condomes, etc...The fact is...young girls and boys don't think it will happen to them. When it does, they act like kids and try and get out of it. So, I think that saying we all who had abortions are just uninformened is not accurate. We live in a world where we are told over and over about reproduction and preventing it. At least in US. Repeat abortions are because of the same reason why they started in the first place. We think if we could just educate these kids on the facts then this would not be the problem...We are dealing with hormones and they can not be educated. Most people in the heat of passion can not make a rational decision about their life and who it will affect them. Especially young kids.

Anonymous - 26/07/2005 02:17

Anon. 17:05 The woman has no responsibility here? Come on, in this day and age if a woman chooses to have unprotected sex, let her accept responsibility for her own actions. It sickens me to see so many woman using abortion as their mode of birth control. Each week the pubs/discos are full of young women getting drunk and engaging in casual sex. If they have so little respect for themselves, why would we expect any man to respect them?

Anonymous - 26/07/2005 09:13

A fine would be a good idea if he man was willing to pay, could afford to pay and was still in the jurisdiction when paternity was proved (after the baby was born, if the women was to go ahead wit the pregnancy). Remember it's not so long in this country where unexpected expecting fathers left the country in order to avoid being forced into marriage (which was in those days the only "respectable" resolution to the problem. I think it is over simplistic to blame men for 'cajoling' women in to sex. Married women have crisis pregnanacies too - sometimes due to health difficulties. Are there husbands to be fined? Women may have a crisis pregnancy due to lack of knowledge about contraception. Or lack of confidence about seeking it or at least talking to someone about seeking it. It is not so long ago since I went to school (late 80'S) and I recieved NO information aobut preventing or causing a pegnanacy. Also who would you have do the task of asking each pregnanat woman in the country (once you have established they they are pregnant, which many not always be possible in the early stages) whether their pregnancy is a crisis one or not. More appropriate I believe is to educate women and men from a young age about effective conraception, the commitment involved the care of the young baby so that they will not undertake it lightly and bundles of self-confidence so that they have sex only IF and WHEN they want to.

Anonymous - 26/07/2005 10:02

No, Lisa I did not say that the women in question were too dumb! Nor is it Bulls***. Clearly you are not familiar with the the Irish experience and are not comparing like wiht like. Not grwoing up in the US. I have no personal experience of the situation there and only know of what I have researched, read anf heard. I finsijed secondary school 15 years ago. In the 5 years I was there I recieved no informaiton about monthly cycle other that to use pads for a period (I was told this at 14, when I and most other girls already had them 2 or more years) and no information whatsoever about contraception. Up until very recently Ireland had a serious attitude problem in reltion to this, from what I\'ve experienced. Crtainly you cannot ediucate hormones but in Holland and Sweden (to name but two) they have educated young men and women quite effectively on how to hadle them. They have also learned how to be open and honest about sex and sexuality. We have a lot to learn form them.

Anonymous - 26/07/2005 15:07

Young girls are cajoled into having sex with their boyfriends and this puts the girl under enormous pressure to refuse. Men have a way of getting around women declaring their undying love for them ect. Some threaten by saying they can get sex from someone else and this can put some women into a panic situation. It may take two to tango but in a crisis situation there is only one tangoing and that is the woman left with the baby. We should make it far harder for men not to walk off when they feel like it. Obviously a fine may not be suitable in all cases. For instance a married mothers case or when medical purposes come into play. But to run away and leave a young girl in this way is despicable. We have to get the message across that men Cannot do this anymore. Contraception is usually left to the woman as well, but if there was a fine given to the men they might ensure that they too were fully protected in having sex.

Anonymous - 26/07/2005 16:54

iF WOMEN, OR MEN INDED ARE CAJOLED INTO SEX then we need to instill confidence in our ypounbg generation to say NO when they want or need to. Bear in mind that married or older women can be cajoled into as well for some of the same reasons. As for your comment about married women in crisis pregnancies, I assume this also applied to co-living or partnered women?? Fines are not the way to go forad but you canot stop every man between the age of 14 and 84 from leaving the country on the grounds that they could have made a women pregnant. I think it's puttign the cart before the horse to usea threat of fines - etc. rather than education, opnness, mature ayttitude and informaition.

Anonymous - 26/07/2005 18:45

Married, co-living and partnered women would be in a differant position than those in a crisis pregnancy. There would definatly need to be exceptions to this rule. What I would seriously go after though are those men who want nothing at all to do with the pregnancy. It is far too easy for them to go away at the moment. If they leave the country they can always be made brought back. Men I believe have been getting off with this far too lightly down through the years. I agree with the other comments you have made about instilling confidence in our younger generation as well because that area is also weak at the moment. I would love to see both parties being truly aware of the seriousness of their actions and to be able to ensure that they have taken every precaution possible. But that may not be enough! If the message went out loud and clear that Responsibility is absolutely essential then I believe that this is the way forward.

Anonymous - 27/07/2005 09:20

Anon 18.45, If they leave the country they MOST CERTAINLY can NOT always be made brought back. There are no extra-judicial (I believe that is that they are called) for unplanned pegnaancy. Pregnancy, is afterall not a crime.

Anonymous - 27/07/2005 14:02

Anon 9:20 Maybe it is time this was made a criminal offence. The man is effectively deserting and abandoning his family. If I was to abandon my children I would either be put in jail or my kids could be taken off me permanently. If you deserted the Irish army long ago and got caught you could be executed! Surely we women need to look at this area better. It is the cause of many a crisis pregnancy. A woman on her own in that situation is a desperate and lonely person. Have you any words to describe what it is like when two people get on very well, a crisis pregnancy happens and one partner takes flight! Look at the agony of the woman. Look at what is in front of her. She is going to have to carry this with her for the rest of her life no matter what decision she makes. And he gets away scott free. To me that is unbelievable in this day and age.

Anonymous - 27/07/2005 15:42

Anon, 14.02. I see your point however I belive your solution of making it a crime is simply unworkable. How do you prove he is the father. You must wait until after the baby is born and get DNA samples from father and baby. To be fair, if the pregnancy is the rult of a one night stand, he is neither deserting nor abandoning any family - just walking away froma women he had a brief physical encounter with.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 27/07/2005 16:29

Anon:15:42 I disagree. If the man had sex without using a condom, thereby indicating that he was taking responsibility for contraception and proving that he had no intended to have a child, then fine, your point applies. But unless he actively uses contraception, he's at risk of paternity, as it were.... It is every potential parent's responsibility to take responsibility for their OWN reproduction. Saying 'she said she was on the pill' doens't cut it!

Anonymous - 27/07/2005 16:57

Charlotte (cbreen) the idea of making it a crime is still unworkable, forthe reasons I outlined above - proof of paternity. Also, the implicaiton that "she said she was on the pill" can work in s a number of ways. There were women in the past who said this, where it as not true to trap a man. There can be cases where the women may have said no such thing and the man claims she did Also, there are cases where the man said that he had had a vasectomy where in fact this was not the case. So pregnancy results because the woman believed someone who appeared to be a loving partner. Should all of us (men and women) now not believe our partners on thess issues?

Charlotte(cbreen) - 27/07/2005 18:44

Every single person who has consensual sex should take into account that that act may end in pregnancy. And that they have a responsibility for their actions and decisions. We all acknowledge that no form of contracpetion is 100% reliable, even when used with strict controls. So the only adult thing to do is be aware of that. Much like the \"Caveat emptor\" or \"buyer beware\", if one cannot admit the idea that a pregnancy make arise from a sexual act, then one should not be having sex.

Anonymous - 27/07/2005 20:28

Though these men are abandoning a potential family, what exactly are the women who decide to have an abotion doing? They are killing the only member of this accidental family that they have left. If the men are fined for walking away, why should the women not be punished for taking somebody else's life? Perhaps these fines you talk of could be used to pay the fee for the abortion. Now what a picture of the perfect family that would be.

Breda(KXM15286) - 27/07/2005 21:53

I had my son when I was 21 and although his father and I tried to make a go of our relationship, it didn\'t work. I too did briefly consider abortion. But I realised that this situation was not my son\'s fault. He was not to blame for the situation I found myself in. I knew that I had to be an adult and take responsibility for my actions and be his mother. My parents were not the youngest particularly my father who was in his seventies when my son was born. It was very difficult for them. No one in my family, and I mean cousins etc... had ever been lone parents (this was in the early 90\'s). But I knew then and I know now that I made the right decision. No, it wasn\'t easy, but it was very rewarding. I have never regretted the decision. I always reminded myself that I was doing it for my son. I have to say it made me a stronger person. My son is now almost 13 years old. He is nearly a man. I am so grateful everyday that I am his mother. He is a wonderful human being and I have never regretted my decision. I fully understand how difficult it is to have a child when you are young, and men have an awful tendency to run away from the problem, I know I was very bitter about that for a long time. I know that my former partner is not the best, but to this day he still tries. I am married now to a wonderful man and I have another son, we are a very happy family I have to say and my first son loves my husband as much as his dad, and I would say more. It has worked out for me. With regard to making men paying for their crime, I feel that it is only right and proper that men should support their children. To excuse anyone on the basis that their partner, was taking precautions is ridiculous. If you do not want to have children, then it is your responsibility to use contraception, whether you are a man or a woman, particularly where you are in a short term relationship, you should use condoms, to prevent the spread of STIs. I would urge anyone to seriously consider their decision before having an abortion. It isn’t something you can undo, personally I felt that it was my child. I know who frightening it can be to face pregnancy and childbirth alone. There is still a stigma attached, particularly in middle class Ireland, but I don’t think you should take that into account when you make your decision. Think about what is right for you and what you are capable of living with. Forget about you friends and relatives, you and you alone have to live with your decision, what ever it be. I myself am not at all maternal. I have more issues associated with the birth of my second son, who was planned and when I had a huge support system in place, than with my first birth. I do personally feel you are far more equipped physically to have a baby when you are young. My first pregnancy and birth was much better than my second. I have to say my view is coloured by the fact that my father died a number of years ago. If I had had an abortion or had my son adopted, my father would never have known a grandchild. As it was he really enjoyed his grandson, who was the apple of his eye.

Anonymous - 27/07/2005 23:45

Before the smoking ban was introduced every-one said how unworkable it was. Look how wrong we all have been. All smokers now go outside the door. The huge differance here was the fine! Money does talk and it talks well! The ban also says something else though... We as a society have our priorities wrong. Why are \"things\" more important than human beings? A woman in a crisis pregnancy could go through certain channels to verify who the father is. Doctor through to health board maybe. The father could then be put on hold until paternity is established. If this was followed through with the threat of a fine, education about sex would take on a whole new meaning. Young people would have to sit up and take notice and so would the parents. Education and contraception would become vital areas and not areas just to keep you safe. This dismissive attitude about contraception would be gone and yes no partner should trust each other in that area. How much better it would be if they were doubly protected anyway... this would spill over into the area where either the pill failed or there was a burst condom. Women I believe would feel much better and safer about themselves and young men would look on women in a much more respectful way. A large fine spells out plain and clear that we as a society were not working all along. That there is no equality for women in this area and that too many lives have been wrecked!

Anonymous - 28/07/2005 10:23

So Charlotte are you sayign that no-one who does not want a baby should have sex? This would result in very fertile woman having sex or 0 - 4 times. Unworkable in the extreme I\'m sure you\'ll agree.

Anonymous - 28/07/2005 10:27

Anon: The women who decide to have an abortion are making a decision about their pregnaancy, their body and their life. How do you know they don't have other member of family - other children, brothers, sisters etc. A woman or man cannot be punished for availing of service, medical or otherwise whoich is lgal in anoher jurisdiction. Under law, abortion in the UK is not considered to be the unlawful taking or life in the way that murder is. They are simply two different legal definitions regardless of whatever moral sway you choose to put on it.

Anonymous - 28/07/2005 10:34

I don't get your connection wit the smoking ban. This protects adults and chiuldren ina publc place. How do ou propoe to establish paternity if the father refuses to give a sample or has left the country - for fear of being fined. And what do you mean by putting the father 'on hold'? Yes, I belive we are all agreed on compulasary sex education, in schools, from the age of 11 or 12 upwards with access to responsible contracpetion for all teens. This works in Hollan, for example. But there the attitude is much more open and honest also. But believe me - you will catch far moe flies with homey than with vineager. The carrot approach in this just like anything else, will work far better than the stick approach.

Anonymous - 28/07/2005 14:49

Anon:20:28 As it stands at the moment some men are already insisting that their girlfriends have an abortion anyway. But would they insist if they had a heavy fine to pay? Women I believe genuinely do not want to have an abortion, instead the situation as it stands at the moment is forcing them into abortion. This situation is easily understandable. Surely women are punished enough as it is. Abortion has literally destroyed some women psychologically for lifetimes. The fines could go anywhere. I certainly would not recommend that a fine goes to pay for an abortion. Good examples for the fines would be (1) Put in the child's name for it's future education. (2) To save premature babies in hospitals. (3) to provide free school books for children in poorer families or anything that could be related to helping children to succeed in life. Remember too that a whole new educational programme would need to be set up for parents who are ashamed that their daughters will bring down the family name, are afraid of what the neighbours will think and hide behind clouds of secrecy. If something is not done to change us all for the better then we will all stay in a thocracy, stay in the past and never be able to go forward.

Anonymous - 28/07/2005 15:31

Anon 10:27, of course it is more than likely that these women seeking abortion do have other members of family. I never disputed the fact that they have family, I was talking of this 'accidental' family that they have created- meaning, themselves, the father and the child. While I agree with you that they are making a decision about their own lives, they are nevertheless making a decison about somebody else's life too. A life that as a mother they are responsible for. However, this responsibility is not whether or not they should allow their child to fully develop and thus live, but rather to provide their child with the best possible future that they can. If it be the case that the parent cannot financially or emotionally support their child then why not make something good come out of their ordeal and give it up for adoption to a couple who are not as fortunate to be able to conceive. I am fully aware that in the UK abortion is perfectly legal and not regarded as murder but you will also note that we are not in England and except for few and very extreme circumstances, it is completely illegal here and therefore regarded by many in a completely different light. Though I never described it as murder, I do find it far more of an offence to have an abortion than do what the man is doing by walking away.

Anonymous - 28/07/2005 16:07

Are you suggesting that men are heavily fined if woen have abortions?? How absurd. Similar to the poster who sggests that hey be fined if the woman is pregnaant andd they leave here - unworkable. Actually, there are some women how have abortions becuse at the time it is the best solution for them. They do not want a baby and furthermore, they do not want to be pregnant.

Anonymous - 28/07/2005 16:11

Anon 18.51 - it takes more than a one night stand and an accident with contraception to create a family. And this is how some unplanned pregnancies occur. Yes, abortion is illegal here but Irish abortions don\'t take place here, they take place in Britain, wher eit is perfectly legal. As has been said above, the reason why women don\'t give the baby up for aboption is becase not only do they not want a child-in some cases, they don\'t want to be pregnant.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 28/07/2005 16:37

Anonymous Posted: 28/07/2005 10:23, I would never suggest such a rediculous regime. I\'m making the point that one should acknowledge that if one has sex, EVEN with contraception used perfectly, that sexual act can still result in pregnancy. being surprised at crisis pregnancies is a bit silly, when we all know that even with the best protection, pregnancy can happen. Acting as though it was an unthinkable rarity is daft. If one cannot countenance the idea of having a pregnancy, and having to deal with the resulting crisis and the decisions coming out of that, then one should not be having sex in the first place. Making having sex a crime is laughable, making pregnancy outside of marriage a crime is ridiculous. My point was that unless both partners take responsibility for contraception themselves, even or especially during a one night stand, then they are \'liable\' and responsible for that pregnancy.

Anonymous - 28/07/2005 18:23

Anon:16:07 If you were a young man in the morning and you were told that if you make a girl pregnant and walk off and leave her there you will face a fine of so much money. Wouldn't you surely be less inclined to have un-protected sex with a girl in the future? Wouldn't it make you think about how careless you could have been all along? Wouldn't it make you realise that women's bodies need to be fully respected? Surely this fine as it were, would be like a wake-up call. Anon:18:51 If you truly just don't want to be pregnant and have an abortion based on that alone, then I just don't know what could be done about this one! Maybe you could go and plead leniency for the man that could be fined! I am convinced though that the majority of crisis pregnancies is due to the partner running away and having nothing to do with the pregnancy. That is cowerdice on the part of the man and should be very much discouraged.

Anonymous - 29/07/2005 08:43

Charlotte breen - you say that If one cannot countenance the idea of having a pregnancy, and having to deal with the resulting crisis and the decisions coming out of that, then one should not be having sex in the first place. Therefore you are implying that only those who are prepared to have a pregnancy, despite contraception, should be having sex. As I have stated time and time and time again. This would mean fertile women only have sex 0 - 4 or 5 times until the age of 54. - Completely and utterly ridiculous. IT NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Therefore we as a society must be prepated to eduacte all to use contraceptives and where they fail, be prepared to handle that - in the manner which is best for the woman.

Anonymous - 29/07/2005 10:04

Anon - 18.23. Many young men in the morning if they were told that if they make a girl pregnant and walk off and leave her there then they will face a fine of so much money. - would only think of how muh more quickly they would need to escape, to tyhe U.K. or wherever to escape this. Much as many young men whent to England in the 50's if they had made a gilr pregnaant here. Some to escape the rath of her family and society and some to escape being coerced into marriage. Others Would think about how lucky they had been rather tahn how careless. I don't know what your point is about 'go and plead leniency for the man that could be fined' - Lienency refers only to a court of law with regard to sentencing. And neither pregnaacy or abortion is a crime.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 29/07/2005 11:39

Anonymous Posted: 29/07/2005 08:43 You are deliberately misunderstanding a sub-clause here! "and the decisions coming out of that" I am saying that those who have sex must be prepared to face the decisions which might arise out of a pregnancy. So those who have sex should be aware that although they are using contraception, that there is a slight chance of pregnancy. So do they, if they have any worries about the success of their contraceptive efforts, take post coital contraception, and if such a pregnancy occurs, then they must be able to fact the QUESTIONS involved in such a pregnancy i.e. do we go through with the pregnancy and potentially have a child who one or both of us will have to care for, or give up for adoption, of do we have an abortion. If one cannot face even the possibilities of such questions, then one should not be having sex. The main reason we as a society have an age restriction on having sex is that it is an adult responsibility. Pregnancy may well come from a sexual encounter and only those who are mature enough to cope with such decisions should be involved in sexual encounters. Yes, the age limits in various countries are relatively arbitrary, but all of those restrictions are aim a the same concept: ensuring that people are responsible enough to make these decisions for themselves. And yes, I've been advocating the education and provision of information to each and every child in the country. See post:18/01/2002 16:05, 19/11/2002 11:38, 10/11/2004 16:40, 14/07/2005 11:51 etc. And not through a biology chapter, or a religion lesson, although those may cover aspects of the questions. I advocate a specific set of classes and an exam. A frank and open discussion on contraception, the things that will make contraceptives fail (vomiting, stomach upsets, bad timing in taking the pill etc) the relative relaxing of inhibitions while using drink and drugs, and why you STILL have to take precautions while under their influence or else not have sex....etc. I really think we are failing our younger generations by pretending that young sexuality doesn't exist and by pretending that they are FULLY understanding the issues involved with sex, contraception and pregnancy.

Anonymous - 29/07/2005 12:28

Anon 10:04 You say that men will run away from the wrath of the family. In my case it was I the woman who got the wrath from his family! As for running away from marriage, there is a huge amount of people not getting married nowadays. They all just live to-gether. If we still think in this day and age that men are going to run away then we need to seriously do something about that. What would you suggest? My point about leniency for the man was referring to your case IF it was made a crime for the man to walk off. You were stressing that you just didn't want to be pregnant which appears to me that the man was not at fault.

Anonymous - 29/07/2005 14:13

Charlotte - we may well be on the same page then but I think you misuderstand the point of post-coital contraception (and even it fails). It cannot be taken after every timne a woman has sex as a failsafe in case her regular method hasn't worked as there ae strict medicallimis to how often it can be used in any cycle. Also I don't think we as a nation are pretending that young people know everythign they should about sexand sexuality. In fact many of the previous generation have teir heads stuck firmly in the sand.

Anonymous - 29/07/2005 14:20

Anon - 12.28, perhaps you did not read my post, when I spoke of men walking away and those in fear of marriage, I was referring to how things were in the 1950's not these days. But would you really like the hare-brained idea of fines to put us back 40 years into a situation like that.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 29/07/2005 14:55

Anon:Posted: 29/07/2005 14:13 Re my previous post: "So do they, if they have any worries about the success of their contraceptive efforts, take post coital contraception...". My point is they should be using appropriate contraception. If that fails in a marked way (i.e. burst condom, or she has a stomach upset the following day and can't be sure her pill is absorbed by her system...) then PCC would be an option. I never mentioned using PCC as a standard form of contraception. With regards information for children, Catholic schools still are not giving a full and frank disclosure of sexuality. and where they do, parents can have their children opt out of any such classes. That is a failure on the part of the state, and it contrary to Children's Rights.

Mabz(KPZ31376) - 29/07/2005 18:07

I honestly think fines are the way to go, men are getting off lightly. it is a crime to abandon especially when using the excuse ''im not ready to have a family''... Teenagers are not stupid, i was once one only a few years ago and we do know the risks involved in having sex. But lads are thinking it wont happen to them, and girls are too shy and scared to stop in the middle of the moment and ask for protection. well some are anyways. Parents need to be the educators, and not in the scary teacher way. Talk about it openly, have a trust going between your kids. Try at least and dont judge. My own mother has always been very open on this subject with me. i was able to discuss beings sexually active with her and we both together took the precautions. I do know its hard for some parents and some kids are not willingly able to listen. But i have also spoken to some parents who are completely oblivious to the fact that kids are getting younger and younger having sex. This backwards attitude is not helping. It is still not always down to the parents, but it is a help having someone close to you, to discuss an issue like this and feel comfortable.

Anonymous - 29/07/2005 23:40

I actually believe that fines could take us forward thousands of years and not backwards. Mabz put a lot of things in perspective. Girls ARE too shy and Too scared to say no. In this area it proves that we are the weaker sex. We are the weaker sex as well by leaving the men walk away! Why are we afraid to do something about the men? Even now, in this modern day and age we are still afraid. Do you realise that! We are still afraid of men! Look at all the excuses that are made for them... I have more of a problem with the woman than the man, men will run away to England, they are afraid of her family, they are afraid of society, they are afraid of marriage. This is the reason why some men never grow up. Because we keep them that way. We as a society would prefer to blame the woman. "Well, she shouldn't have opened her legs... She should have more control... She should have been on the pill... She shouldn't have had an abortion. And in a more suble way... "You know so-and-so is up the pole! That one, she's a tramp...You wouldn't know who's the father with that one... God, and she comes from a well to do family, who'd ever have thought it. Can you not see how women are being treated. We are talking here about our mothers, sisters, daughters and our friends. We are talking about tiny beautiful little girls at this moment in time who will be subjected to this in the future! How long more is it going to go on for! The church is not the only place that is sick at the moment - it is us - everyone of us on this site are sick for allowing this abuse to go on for so long!

Anonymous - 30/07/2005 11:28

You say girls know the risks, you may be surprised how many think they cant get pregnant the first time or if they do it standing up or if they wash thoroughly afterwards. The old myths are out their, and still as strongly thought to be true as ever. Also you dont have to have sex to get pregnant, it is possible to get pregnant from heavy petting, it only take's one sperm to get pregnant, and it does NOT have to be full intercourse for that to happen. Also their are groups of young girls that have got a pact between themselves to see who can have sex first and then for another dare see who can get pregnant first. Trust me on this one I was totally horrified to hear this the other day, apparently it is mainly the 14/15 year old's, but some girls who went to grads the other night from two of the school's here were determined to try their best to get pregnant that night. According to three of them it is tradition that this happens every year and then the "old" last year's girls go back to see the new top class girls with their babies. When I asked them why dont you listen to what the health and education teacher tells you? It was a case of the teacher more or less told them you don't need that, it is your duty to your husbands to have babys. Maybe it is time that these lessons were taken out of the hands of the schools and given to a goverment body so that we know for certain that the children are being told what can and indeed does happen ?

Anonymous - 31/07/2005 00:01

Anon 11:28 The tradition that you talked about is very worrying. If it is happening amongst 14/15 year olds, I thought the man could be up for statutory rape. Of course that law may not be implemented properly either like a lot of laws. Games like these though exist among the men also. It is usually based on the amount of girls they have scored with. They go on to boast about who they had sex with even implicating girls names that they never had sex with. I would wholeheartedly agree with you that sex education should Most definately be taken out of the hands of the school. I would also advocate for the parents because in fairness to them - they didn't grow up with any form of sex education and find it hard to approach the subject with their children.

Anonymous - 31/07/2005 18:01

Anon 23.40, You make it sound like any girl/woman out of wedlock having sex doesn't want to. It's not always the man who is the instigator in these situations, it is becoming more and more common for women to now initiate sex, whether in a relationship or not. Of course it will always be the men who ask for it more but women in this country are becoming more sexually liberated and feel they have the right to desire and enjoy sex just as much as a man does. Obviously younger girls are more easily led than those a few years older but it's not just girls of 14/16 who find themselves in a crisis pregnancy. A crisis pregnancy can happen to women of any age, women who are perfectly aware of the potential consequences of having sex. I find this attitude of blaming the men so unfair. It's like they're being punished for being sexually attracted to a woman. You make women sound like brainless Barbie dolls who, when asked to have sex they can only but oblige and fulfill the man's every wish. Why is it so hard to believe that women have sex becuase they WANT to have sex? I have sex because I enjoy it, not because my partner is putting me under pressure. And as I am 21, I have no desire whatsoever to get pregnant so take every precaution possible to be sure that if I sleep with somebody that we are practicing safe sex. If this is such a hard thing for a woman to do then she should not be having sex or if she does, not take it out on the child (that is what we are discussing after all)

Anonymous - 01/08/2005 13:24

anon 23.40, i was very impressed with your post. Everything you said is absolutely correct and is the true sad reality of whats happening today. I have very recently been in a crisis pregnancy and HE done a runner, abroad. I agree that there would be a reduction in abortions if these men were forced to take responsibility. It should not be taken lightly that these kids have to be single handedly reared for the best part of 20 years, the man is 50% to blame and the child inherits 50% of his dna so what excuses him from taking responsibility, i receive e19.30 extra weekly for my child, out of that theres e4 deducted for rent so ive got e15.30 per week to rear her,ive borrowed money and am in debt to try cover her basic needs. His family want nothing to do with the baby either and will not co-operate, his mother told me i made my own bed now go lie in it- thats what she taught her son. My other concern is that these kids are entitled to a medical background, i had a little girl, i do not know what diseases/disorders that may be heredrity that are in his family, eg breast cancer etc, my child should legally be entitled to that information but shes not. The government need a major wake up call from us women.

Anonymous - 01/08/2005 15:40

Anon 18:21 The last thing that I am doing is blaming the man from being sexually attracted to the woman. I am specifically targeting those men who Deliberately walk away from a crisis pregnancy. Nothing else! I Do not make out the women are brainless Barbies. I wouldn't dream of it. But some girls Are genuinely afraid to say no because they do not want to lose the boyfriend. And that is a fact. They believe that they must do this in order to keep him. You are obviously very confindent in this area and you appear to have everything under control. It is hugely important that women are getting in touch with their sexuality. I would celebrate this. It is a very good thing in my eyes. But other women are not as confident as you are (like I was myself) and do not look into the planning and preparation of looking after themselves. Some women are afraid to ask for the pill from their doctors for fear of being judged. I mean some doctors ask you why do you want to go on the pill! It is that coweredly running away that is at the heart of many an abortion. And I would seriously blame men for this. You can see the attitude plainly in Anon's 13:24. It is still out there as horrific as it has been for centuries upon centuries. Do you honestly want this specific area to continue for all our future daughters?

Anonymous - 01/08/2005 17:22

Anon;00.01 The age of the boys are usually the same age as the girls. They are either in their school or neighbouring schools,as the girls get older the age of the lads do tend to go older than the girls. At present my friend and myself are running a youth club for and have been doing for 4 years,the children range from 12 to 18. The girls tend to confide in us and we have been getting considerably worried with what they have been telling us, and asking us, we allways tell them to try to talk to their parents but the usual answer is "they dont listen/they dont understand me." The number of the girls asking where can they get protection from or even worse the morning after pill has been rising also. But the terrible thing for me was to hear the lack of education the children get told, either in the home or school. Sadly more often than not it is in the catholic run schools, where the least amount of education on contraceptives/protection takes place. What does worry me the most is not only the fact that girls can get pregnant but the great amount of diseases the girls could get, especially chlamydia,HIV,or Hep. I sat my children down seperately and told them the facts of life, when they were ready although yes it is embarrassing their are books to help in this. Until this happens then sadly it is upto the schools and sadly they dont seem to be doing to good a job of it so far.

Anonymous - 02/08/2005 02:32

Anon:23:40 With referance to your last sentence about women not taking it out on the child just remember it is not only the women who aborts. The father also aborts by allowing it to go ahead,insisting on it, sometimes paying for it and refusing to look on it as a potential child.

helen(hwarhol) - 02/08/2005 12:05

Anon 02.32, I assume that was adressed to my comment (18.21). This is very true that the man will sometimes insist on the woman having an abortion. However, it is still the woman who is actually going to England and getting the abortion. I am sure that if her child had just been born she would not be so easily persuaded to put an end to its life. Though of course there is a difference between an unborn child and a newborn child, they are both still living beings. Just because you cannot see the child, does not mean it is not there and therefore can do what you will. I'm not saying the man is not just as much to blame as the woman in these circumstances or even more to blame, but this nevertheless does not make it excusable, it is still taking his and his partner's mistake out on the child.

Anonymous - 02/08/2005 17:30

Anon 12:05 Believe me after reading, listening and observing the posts of women who have had abortions the last thing they are using is an excuse to have an abortion. There are several factors coming into play here. Some women I believe are genuinely forced into abortion, like the side I have already mentioned. There is no decent help for them out there and they can feel very alone in the world. At this stage of this subject we have to focus completely on the mother of the child, look into her circumstances, her feelings, how society affects her and the after-effects of an abortion. If we can build up a proper picture of why abortion happens and improve the areas that are faulty at the moment I am certain that this will at the very least reduce abortions. Condemnation of anyone or any situation is only a surface thought as it was at the beginning of this post. As we move along in this discussion my sight for one has opened up and I am beginning to understand. I knew myself that I needed this conversation to go on because I believe that we are ignorant as to why abortion happens. My aim would be to improve the real bad situations first, which is the man running away in my eyes and then to hopefully improve other areas that would be essential.

Anonymous - 03/08/2005 00:12

I think the only people on this site that say a man should not take responsibility for his part in creating a baby or should not be penalised if he doesnt are men themselves, their mothers or those with absolutely no understanding of the situation. Last year i found myself pregnant, a crisis pregnancy sounds mild to describe what i went through -the childs dad asked me to 'get rid of it',when he knew i couldnt he stopped communication and went abroad, i did not want a baby but knew i couldnt have an abortion ,the guilt wouldve ate me. Im not a teenager, im over 30 years old. I very seriously contemplated suicide and came very close. I know that wouldve been killing my baby too but i felt if i were dead i wouldnt have to live with the guilt. Its a terrible situation to be in and an even harder decision for any woman to have to make. I felt if he just supported me emotionally it wouldve been a huge help. I went on to keep my baby and shes now 3mths old, shes beautiful and i do love her but that doesnt make it easier to rear her. I approached his family, they pretty much ran me, his mother(in her fifties) said `its always the womans fault, if you didnt want her then you shouldve took the morning after pill to be sure`.To listen to her talking you'd think i raped him or something. She continued to spit venom at me and told me to go rear her and not be bothering her. She wouldnt give me a contact no for him and laughed saying youll have a hard job finding him. In my opinion there are a lot of mums out there like that and its not surprising that fellas dont care about a crisis pregnancy because they know theyll get away with it. Its very unfair and something seriously needs to be enforced to stop these men from abondoning their responsibilities, its been ignored for long enough but then the government is mainly made up of men ,we need a good woman with understanding up there!

Anonymous - 05/08/2005 15:18

Abortion!It's really sad and unforgatable incident of a woman's life.But sometimes it is quite inevitable for somebody.

Anonymous - 08/08/2005 01:34

Abortion is a very sad and unforgetable experience in a person's life but if we all got our heads together and came up with decent proper solutions then the 'sometimes' could be changed to seldom. In the cases of 'what the neighbours think' we need to take a new perspective in this area as well. We must stop getting hurt from them! Holding our heads high in society and knowing that we are as good as anyone else. We need to take a more brazen attitude towards these ignorant people. If I had my time over again I would never have left my boyfriend's mother get to me. Anon above is in the same situation that I was. If I hadn't been so sensitive, I could have stared straight at her and told her to go and f*** herself! But I was a coward as well. I ran away with my tail between my legs. What the neighbours would say had a lot to do with it as well. But where the neighbours are concerned we actually forget that there are only a few of them nasty. There are a huge amount of people that accept the position that you are in and there are even others who think of you very highly and admire your bravery to carry through a crisis pregnancy. There are also thousands of women down through the centuries whether they are alive or dead who would back you all the ways. With this strength behind you, you can't go wrong!

Anonymous - 10/08/2005 23:48

I read from the news article that the irish family planning association are helping three women to try and get abortion legalised here and the case is going to the European courts for human rights. What about the unborn childs rights? I thought children had a right to life? Even the unborn child has a very strong potential of one day being a little baby, a person. The topic on men doing a \'RUNNER\' as mentioned above by several people , Would\'nt it be surely better if they spent their resourses following up bringing a case to European court against the \'RUNAWAY DADS\' and teaching their MOTHERS that their SONS must hold responsibility for ANY child that results from their sexual encounters, let that be a long term relationship, a short term relationship or a one night stand, it\'s still their sperm!! More women might choose to keep their children in a crisis pregnancy situation if this was sorted first and they had support hence reducing the amount of women seeking abortions. My belief is that sure there are some cases where abortion is necessary but if it is legalised here i think there will be a dramatic increase in women having abortions because it will be so easily accessable and the fear of getting pregnant will also be reduced because women will know they can have an abortion and be home that same day. We\'ve never had abortion here so surely this avenue is worth looking at before we have it legalised. A lot of these poor women having abortions do so out of fear, no support emotionally or financially and a large number of them regret it for the rest of their lives, Is that not telling us something? We need to ask these women who\'ve had abortions questions, anonymously of course , and find out a percentage of those regretting it and what is the one thing they believe could\'ve helped them to keep their child, my bets are support from these sperm donators. I cannot understand why this subject has being continuously overlooked and how anyone can say that it\'s all the womans fault - just because the female has to carry the child, bear it and rear it doesnt make it her fault to becoming pregnant, IT TAKES TWO. The reality being that two consenting people have sex , a crisis pregnancy results and the fella thinks ,hey i dont want this im outta here? Bullsh**, this needs to be looked at , bigtime!!!!

Charlotte(cbreen) - 11/08/2005 13:41

To Anonymous Posted: 10/08/2005 23:48 You either support the right of every woman to have control over whether and when she decides to reproduce or you don't. You are putting the rights of a potential child over the rights of a woman to control her own life. Until there is a method of 100% reliable contraception, abortion must be a reality to allow for the rights of every woman to control whether or when she reproduces. So be aware that by supporting the rights of the potential child over the rights of the potential mother that you are in fact valuing one life over the other. The X case accepted that when the life of the mother is in danger, the rights of the existing human are protected over the rights of the potential human.

Anonymous - 11/08/2005 16:46

The fact is that it is the woman who gets pregnant and the woman who has to carry the child. Like it or not there will always be men who will abandon the mother of their child. This is a fact and it will never change. Bearing this in mind, this does effectively leave the woman on her own. However, this does not automatically give her the right to terminate her child based on the actions of her partner/one night stand. Of course a crisis pregnancy without the support of your partner is a stress that most of us cannot imagine. Therefore, it is up to us/the government to provide a service that will counsel women and make them see that there are other ways around this and that it is not the end of the world. There are hundreds and hundreds of couples desperate to adopt in Ireland but who find it a difficult and almost impossible process due to the severe lack of babies given up for adoption. 7,000 Irish women get abortions every year. That's denying 7,000 couples of a baby that they will deeply love, nurture and raise. We need to show young women that just because they cannot look after their baby this does not mean that somebody else can't. Painful as it may be to go through a pregnancy with a child you do not want, it is also equally as painful to go through a whole lifetime wishing for the children that you will never have.

Anonymous - 12/08/2005 01:12

Charlotte, anon 10/08 23.48 here. YOUR statement could be open to contradiction because if you think that i am valuing one life over another then are YOU not doing likewise. I simply said that the amount of abortions being carried out could be reduced, is that a such a bad thing or would you prefer to see every woman in a crisis pregnancy situation having an abortion and some of them living with the regret for the rest of their lives. Would it not be better to begin with exploring other avenues of decreasing the number of abortions first before making it so readily available? I do realise that abortion will be something that will always happen. And yes Charlotte i did say that in 'certain circumstances' it is inevitable as when the mothers life is at risk. You seem to be very fueled up and pick a lot at peoples comments, im just giving my opinion, i don't think it's a matter of supporting a womans right for control over her own body to reproduce or not - i think it's a matter of trying our very best to help these women make a decision that they will NOT regret in the future. You avoided to comment on the mans part in this? Because iv'e been very recently in a crisis pregnancy i do so very much understand how an instant decision can be made when your head is so messed up, i kept my baby and i'm VERY proud of myself and her for doing so and i wont live to regret that decision but my mind was so messed up i could very easily have opted for abortion, that- i would have regretted. And you said that i should either be for or against a woman having control to reproduce , well im very sorry but at this moment im somewhere in limbo. On that subject, you said EVERY WOMAN should have the right to decide whether , if and when they reproduce then isn't that a wee bit contradictory again, im confused but what about all the aborted female babies, they'll never have a chance to make that decision and a womans OWN BODY does not describe a pregnant body, since science shows us that there are TWO different heartbeats, TWO different brainwave patterns, TWO different blood types and even TWO different sexes. As i said im somewhere in limbo on the topic and it can be very contradictory as we've seen, and im very sorry if anything iv'e said here has upset anyone who has had an abortion & regretted it, i do really understand how hard a decision is is to make and i do sympathise, but Charlotte you asked for it!

Anonymous - 12/08/2005 03:28

How are women getting the impression that they can control their own bodies. Can you control when you can go to the toilet, when you have diahrria, if you can avoid cancer. Or can you control your body at death? Where did this all originate from? I couldn't possibly say that I have control over my own body. I have no idea from moment to moment of what could happen to it. So where is all this control over your body coming from!

Anonymous - 12/08/2005 11:59

Anon 12/08 3.28. I think this control thing started with Charlotte, she said that every woman should have control over her own body to decide whether and when she reproduces.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 12/08/2005 13:18

Ok, I think a bit of misinterpretation is going on. My previous comment was in response to the comment "I read from the news article that the Irish family planning association are helping three women to try and get abortion legalised here and the case is going to the European courts for human rights.” which was posted by Anonymous Posted: 10/08/2005 23:48. Obviously I should have used the terms 'one' instead of 'you', which would have made my comment "One either supports the right of every woman to have control over whether and when she decides to reproduce or one doesn't." It just sounds very stilted! My point is that regardless of how one feels about abortion personally, if one refuses abortion to a woman in a crisis pregnancy, then one is de facto over-ruling the woman's right to control when, whether and with who she reproduces. Ambivalence on abortion is rife in all of us. There's almost no black and white amongst all the grey. I doubt anyone considers abortion as anything other than a sad necessity, but my point is that by refusing a woman the right to an abortion, then one is overruling her right to control her reproduction. And grey areas and all, I think a woman's right to control over her reproduction is a basic human right of a human who is here right now. And sad as it is, I believe that the rights of the human who is here right now overrules the right of the potential human.

Anonymous - 12/08/2005 14:50

But when I am trying to reproduce I cannot tell when I am going to get pregnant or if I will at all! I can't even bring it down to the month. If I am using contraception, I could be talking about years! Surely abortion is the taking of one's control over the body rather than the other way around. If it is nature's design to hold a child in the womb for nine months, how can you come along and disturb that cycle! It has already set up a program if there is something wrong in the womb through miscarraige but I don't believe that we were allowed to disturb it at all. If I was to suddenly stop driving my car in mid-traffic look at the chaos I would cause around the place. Surely this is what it is like for a woman having an abortion. The situation becomes chaotic.

Anonymous - 12/08/2005 16:05

Charlotte, you said you doubt that anyone sees abortion anything other than a sad necessity. May I suggest you take a look around you or refer to a large proportion of the posts on this page where a huge number of people do not see abortion as a necessity but a moral wrong. Perhaps you forgot about those people.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 12/08/2005 16:08

Anonymous Posted: 12/08/2005 14:50: Hence my point. You consider the rights of the potential human, or unborn child to be more important than the right of a woman to choose whether or when she wants to have a child. My opinion is that if she chooses to try to become pregnant, then great. Nature is allowed it's way at that point ( and nature can be successful or not in the completion of a baby). If she becomes pregnant accidentally and then chooses to have the child, for whatever reason, then that's great too, and again, Nature is allowed it's way. If she is accidentally pregnant and chooses not to have continue with her pregnancy, I believe that is her right and her choice. Regardless of whether I agree with her reasoning, her actions or her choice, I firmly uphold her right to make that decision for herself. That's the meaning of "pro-choice".

Charlotte(cbreen) - 12/08/2005 18:16

Anonymous Posted: 12/08/2005 16:05 One can consider something as morally wrong and yet a sad necessity. Or are you implying there is never, ever any situation where an abortion can be considered necessary? That is a bit pedantic isn't it? Where the mother's life is in danger, surely you support the right of the mother to life? Would not denying the mother that right be morally wrong?

Anonymous - 13/08/2005 03:53

Charlotte, I don't like that sentence "I firmly uphold her right to make that decision herself." Many women contemplating abortion would prefer deep down that you persuaded them against abortion. You are careful in your office not to insult anyone, so you could easily end up agreeing with her decision too eagerly or too soon. For instance, you might point out first of all what the woman's options are. She then says, no, I would prefer to have an abortion. At that stage you might say, Okey, I respect your decision. But her mind could be screaming at you to stop her from going for an abortion. Remember in a lot of cases you are dealing with teenagers who haven't built up enough confidence to say how they really feel. I know that you are not a mind reader but are you able to get the balance right on this one. Can you read her enough to be able to know this? Are you coming up with real positive options to her and are you sounding really positive about these options. It seems to me that these other options aren't tempting enough to prevent abortion.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 15/08/2005 11:40

To Anonymous Posted: 13/08/2005 03:53:, Firstly, I ask you again, "Or are you implying there is never, ever any situation where an abortion can be considered necessary?[...]Where the mother's life is in danger, surely you support the right of the mother to life? Would not denying the mother that right be morally wrong?" As to your last post (13/08/2005 03:53): Although I no longer work in libraries, the role of an information provider is to provide all relevent information on a subject, WITHOUT BIAS. Below, you will find two examples of ethical guidelines for information professionals( one US and one UK based). What you are talking about is 'selling' one idea over another. Again, this is a form of coercion into making a particular choice. I stand by my previous statement "I firmly uphold her right to make that decision herself." I find your lack of belief in a woman's right to make a decision for herself disconcerting. I find your implication that a woman in such a position should be manipulated (in this case, by a librarian/information provider) as to the decision she makes to be covert, biased and dishonest. http://www.cilip.org.uk/cgi-bin/MsmGo.exe?grab_id=315&page_id=16515072&query=ethics&hiword=ETHIC+ETHICAL+ETHICALLY+ethics+ Impartiality, and avoidance of inappropriate bias, in acquiring and evaluating information and in mediating it to other information users. http://www.asis.org/AboutASIS/professional-guidelines.html To improve the information systems with which they work or which they represent, to the best of their means and abilities by -providing the most reliable and accurate information and acknowledging the credibility of the sources as known or unknown -resisting all forms of censorship, inappropriate selection and acquisitions policies, and biases in information selection, provision and dissemination -making known any biases, errors and inaccuracies found to exist and striving to correct those which can be remedied.

Anonymous - 15/08/2005 14:42

Charlotte, I agree wholeheartedly with you that abortions should be allowed in situations where it is medically proven that the mother's life is at risk should she continue to carry her unborn child. However, in your last post it was not this situation which you were highlighting but rather a woman's right to control when she reproduces. Aborting a child when there is no medical reason to do so, to me, is a moral wrong and therefore not a necessity. A necessity is something which is compulsory, and in these circumstances, something which abortin is not.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 15/08/2005 16:44

Anonymous Posted: 15/08/2005 14:42: Interesting, You seem to have the mistaken belief that I agree with your opinions. I state again, I fully support a woman's right to choose when, where and with whom she reproduces, and yet, you seem to think that this correlates with your opinions. I state that any information provider is ethically and morally bound to provide facts, not sentiment; information, not bias, and you interpret this as a malleable thing. It is not.

Anonymous - 15/08/2005 17:19

Charlotte (cbreen) First of all you ask me if I support a woman's right to have an abortion when her life is in danger. Yes, I would agree to that because this is such a rare case it would probably account for only 1 abortion a year. What I want to know though is what is happening with the other 5999 abortions! You also spoke about my lack of belief in some women making a decision for themselves. I would whole-heartedly stand by that one. Some young girls are not sure that they are making the right decision in the first place by having sex with their boyfriends. Some of them feel that they should do it in order to keep their boyfriends. In the same way there are women who would agree to going for an abortion against their own real judgement because they are genuinely not sure. They do it because they feel that they have to keep the family name or to keep themselves from being talked about or snubbed by neighbours. With this in mind they sit in your office not knowing what to say or do and have not got the confidence to say how they really feel. It is no use putting the full blame on the woman you are dealing with (making out that she can make her own decision) when you yourself could have a part to play in all of this. With so many women opting for abortion and not adoption I am seriously wondering is abortion being promoted!

Anonymous - 15/08/2005 20:18

Charlotte. I am fully aware that you do not agree with my opinions but thank you for pointing this out to me. If you remember you asked me if I agreed with abortion when the mother's life is at risk and in response, I said that I wholeheartedly agree. However, this is where my agreement ends. With regards to the service you provide and your line of work, I do not question it for a moment and think it plays an imperative role in today's society. I realise that your job is to provide information without bias, which is why I would not submit a post doubting your service as anon 13/08/05 03:53 did, who, as it happens, is not me.

Anonymous - 15/08/2005 23:21

Charlotte , fair enough you are entitled to your opinion but a lot of people seem to disagree with a lot you have to say. From reading the posts i think thats because you seem to be VERY cold towards the unborn child. In what you say and the way in which you say it, there seems to be no sympathy whatsoever for the loss of these little babies and it gives the impression that you're a major abortion supporter and would'nt even contemplate giving women in a crisis pregnancy the choice of keeping their baby, quite the opposite, just get rid of the lot. Women don't go to librarys in a crisis pregnancy and if they're entitled to information on abortion then so are they on support in keeping their baby, which ideally all options in such an important issue as this should be included on the same leaflet. One can still support abortion but have some little bit of humanity towards these discarded little babies, they don't deserve to be dismissed so coldly.

Anonymous - 16/08/2005 10:13

The idea of fines and penalising men who walk away is, in my opinion, total nonsense. It will put this country back to the 50's or further where men walked for fear of imposed marriage or societal censorship. It would increase the number of men walking away and increase the pressure on women to have abortions. Besides, how to you propose proving who the father is? Would you enforce extradiction? How do you propse gathering fines from men who have left the country?

Anonymous - 16/08/2005 11:48

Those to speak of woman opting for abortion and not adoption - truly, I am convinced - DO NOT GET IT. Adoption is not a alternive to abortion for many women. Woman opt for adoption becuase she cannot or will not continue to care for the baby. A woman opts for abortion in order not to continue with the pregnancy. Adoption solves a crisis baby (if I may be allowed to call them that) not a crisis pregnancy. Also, you cannot compare a 12 week post-implantation foetus to a viable live fully formed human baby. To do so is emotive and does not help women.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 16/08/2005 11:56

*I'm definitely getting confused as to how many posters called 'Anonymous' are currently posting. Pardon crossed messages.* First - I am no longer working within libraries, as I have mentioned before. Second - I do not work in the are of crisis pregnancy advice, although these are services I wholeheartedly support. So those of you who talk of 'my office' and my advice' are mistaken. I do not provide advice in this area, beyond whatever advice I can offer to anyone who asks me. (i.e. People who work in the information industry tend to get asked for research advice in the same way people in the travel industry get asked travel advice...) Third - To Anonymous Posted: 15/08/2005 23:21, it's hard to tell how many people are disagreeing, as they all are presenting with the same name. I was under the impression I was talking to 2 people, but it seems now to be three....Not easy to keep track of... Fourth - As to sounding 'cold' with regards unborn children, I've stated my belief several times. I uphold the rights of the existing human over the rights of the potential human. Certain people seem to think this is an antipathy towards the unborn, which is rubbish! I support the right to abortion. But that doesn't mean I have to like the necessity of it. Hence my great interest in education and provision of adequate contraception. I would also enquire of whoever it is made the 'cold' remark (I'm not being nasty, I just don't know how to identify you amid all the Anonymous's) whether we, as a race, are responding to the issue with ancient biological imperatives, i.e. we think 'baby' and feel the need to defend. But every one of use is someone's baby. Everyone of us deserves defense against harm, and defense of our rights. While I have the same biological response to 'baby', and all that word denotes, I still believe that the currently living, breathing human has the right to decide what happens to her body, and to decide when, where and with whom she reproduces. You may find my opinions cold, but that doesn't mean they are unfeeling. To all others who have a problem with my typing style, I work online and so, you (collectively) get 'work-speak' when I type. Barring being slightly more formal in style, I don't see that I've bee rude, impolite or unpleasant to anyone here. On the other hand, I've willingly defended and endlessly explained my point of view to all who want to argue from behind an anonymous tag (which you are entitled to do: And I defend you right to do so, it just makes clear communication a tad difficult). However, on the subject of the anonymous tag, it demonstrates that there is still a huge guilt and social disapproval surrounding of all issues of female sexuality. There have been mentions, in this discussion list, of girls not feeling the 'shame' and 'guilt' of former years, which apparently kept us all from becoming pregnant in the past (except for the Magdalen laundries, but we can ignore those. We certainly did at the time. etc) And yet, no-one feels comfortable putting their name to a discussion like this unless they can state they have not had to make the awful decisions involved with abortion. These are the issues we should be discussion. Not endless rounds of "Charlotte's beliefs and how we can prove she's a cold-hearted automaton, and so doesn't count as the norm.". Here's what's important folks. People are getting pregnant without wanting to be pregnant. Whether it is social pressure making girls/young women have sex too early, or with inappropriate people, or for inappropriate reasons; or whether it is inadequate contraception or whatever the reasons. Until we have a form of contraception which is 100% reliable, then we will have abortion. We would be so much better off trying to ensure through education, contraception, and building the self-confidence of young women and girls, that no-one became pregnant unintentionally. But even then, I'll still defend a woman's right to have children only when and if she is ready.

Anonymous - 16/08/2005 12:10

Anon:10:13 What makes you think that we would be back in the 50's if we brought in fines for men? A fine has never been tested out yet so you cannot make a comparison. I would look to enforce extradition yes. To come around the fines, I would ask that the girl reports the father immediately to a health board. If she makes a false statement then she too should be subjected to a fine. We should then have a much better chance of determining who the father is. The father then could be immediately fined on the spot but if he proves after a certain length of time that he is supporting the woman and she is happy then he can set the wheels in motion of getting the money from the fine back. Publicans in Galway were immediately fined for the three days that they flouted the smoking ban. If this can be done then there should be no problem with the father.

Anonymous - 16/08/2005 14:25

Anon 11:48 What kind of a mind-set have you got? Of course adoption is an option! Haven't you given a human being the chance of life, a couple the chance of being a family and yourself to be free of starting a new life free an unwanted child. Why can't you continue with the pregnancy? If you can't give me a decent answer to that one then I will put it down to sheer laziness! A crisis baby and a crisis pregnancy are both the same thing! How you can seperate this beats me. To call a 12 week baby a foetus as if it was nothing is also emotive for those women that know that they are carrying a human being. Who out there is making you believe this type of rubbish? It's only all done to make you feel better. People that believe in this cannot be happy with their own lives and want to go about destroying as many as they can in the process.

Anonymous - 16/08/2005 15:59

Anon, you state 'if he proves after a certain length of time that he is supporting the woman and she is happy then he can set the wheels in motion of getting the money from the fine back'. - So you think it's acceptable to make the return of the fine dependant on the whim of a woman? That puttinga lot of power into the hands of one gender. Supposing the woman refuses to name the father? Says she doesn't know who he is? Is she also fined lack of knowledge when she made be already sturuggling financially. Yes, I can say it would be haring back to the 50's. Fines weren't tried then but socila censure was extremely active and it didn't work.

Anonymous - 16/08/2005 16:21

Anon, I thought I had explained why adoption is not always a realistic option to a crisis pregnancy - a situation where the woman not only does not want a baby but does not want to be pregnant.! There are many reasons why a woman cannot continure with a pregnancy. 1. The truama of rape or incest 2. Severe health problems 3. Childbirth Phobia 4. A lifetime of post adoption 5. Social censure - to name 5. - I really don't know what laziness has to do with it?? NO - A crisis baby can be adopted. A crisis pregnancy, where the woman not only doesn't want a child but does not ant a pregnancy eityher annot be solved by adption. ADOPTION DOES NOT SOLVE THE PROBLREM OF THE WOMAN BEING PREGNANT a 12 week old baby is one who was born 12 weeks ago. A foetus refers to a stage in development - medical fact. No-one "out there" is "making" me believe anyone out there is making you belive the type of rubbish you believe? I am in intelligent, well balanced, well educated articulate woman, so there is no need for condescencion. Actually I am very happy with my life, my descision and my life-style. I never said I wanted to destory anyone's life - nor do I.

Anonymous - 16/08/2005 17:21

Anon 16:21 Every single reason that you gave there happens to women who opt for adoption as well. Are you trying to say that these women are without problems and that is the reason that they can adopt! I had two of the problems that you talked about. Social censure and Childbirth Phobia. Your crisis baby and your crisis pregnancy does not add up. We are both equal at that stage. We are both in the same position. That kind of talk you have is indeed rubbish. ADOPTION DOES SOLVE A CRISIS PREGNANCY WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT. You have got mixed messages and you are not reading the situation as good as you should be. There is always a better way out of situations and adoption is one of them. Abortion is a poorer way and there is absolutely no need to head that direction unless you enjoy misery in your life of course.

Anonymous - 16/08/2005 17:29

Anon 15:59 I may not have all the answers where a fine is concerned. I am still trying to figure out how it could be done. But I have no law degree so I don't know how to bring in laws. All I know is that it is possible and it would be very successful if it was implemented properly. Maybe you know more than I do with regards to implementing this law. If it were to come in how would you work it?

Anonymous - 16/08/2005 18:27

Not all women experience misery due to aborion. Okay, what part are you not getting, as I am not the one talking rubbish. I also speak from experience. ADOPTION DOES NOT - I REPEAT, NOT SOLVE A CRISIS PREGNANCY. Adoption solves a crisis baby - certainly. As the mother then no longer has the baby. The adopter does. Can you explain to me how adoption solves the fact that the woman is pregnant? How does adoption result in the woman no longer being pregnant? By it very nature it cannot as it requires a baby.

Anonymous - 16/08/2005 22:09

Charlotte (cbreen) Isn't it extraordinary that you seemed to have suddenly left your job as a librarian as soon as I started questioning the information providers.

Anonymous - 17/08/2005 01:12

anon 16/08 17.29 I agree, a law should be implemented to sort out this whole paternity thing. It's up to the government to take the issue in hand.

Anonymous - 17/08/2005 02:12

Anon 18:27 What you are missing from the adoption side is that none of us women wanted to be pregnant either. We too would have given anything to be unpregnant. You are under the impression that when we put our children up for adoption then we must have wanted to be pregnant. But I tell you no, we did Not want to be pregnant. We have the Exact same thoughts as you have. This is what I am trying to make you understand more than anything. It appears to me that you prefer to deal with a foetus rather than a baby. A foetus and a baby means a human being. It cannot be anything else. You have a problem between the gap from a foetus to a baby. You have a problem with the fourth to the ninth month. Therefore you have a problem with the Time it takes to become unpregnant. During this Time you are seeing a swollen belly in your mind. You are seeing other people Noticing that swollen belly. You are also seeing the pain of childbirth. But I saw all of that too! I also saw that I would be unpregnant in the not too distant future. I also saw that I could go into hiding from the stares of the neighbours. The family planning clinic helped me out here by sending me to a family that could help me in this way. I too was terrified of the birth. But I got there simply because I had the Patience to get there. I didn't have a problem with time and that is the only tiny differance between you and me.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 17/08/2005 11:10

Anonymous Posted: 16/08/2005 22:09: I am a librarian. I do not work in a library. I don't think that's a difficult idea to comprehend. I did, at one stage, work in a library 10 years ago, prior to working independently. And as a trained librarian, I still consider that your belief that information providers should provide biased information to be dishonest and covert. As to your posting of 13/08/2005 03:53:"You are careful in your office not to insult anyone, so you could easily end up agreeing with her decision too eagerly or too soon."; a librarian working in a library situation is ethically bound by the concepts I posted earlier on, namely "Impartiality, and avoidance of inappropriate bias, in acquiring and evaluating information and in mediating it to other information users.". Were I still working in a public information provision setting, I would not countenance doing what you suggest. Everyone is entitled to impartiality when provided with information. And every woman is entitled to receive information on all of her options, so as to allow her to make a decision to herself. You don't seem to have much faith if women, given you think so little of their ability to make a decision independently.

Anonymous - 17/08/2005 12:38

Not only do these women have a problem with the time between the 3rd and 9th month, the censure of family and community and the sheer terror and blinding panic they associate with childbirth, some of them had medical complications which no amount of time would ever cure another was a victim of rape - no amount of patience will cure that either. And there are others who becuase they were adopted themselves and could not trace either birth parent as they had no access to records, could not face the possibility of a lifetime of post adoption separation anxiety. And belive me it was not a tiny difference. Perhaps looking back it was tiny for you - becuase you got thru it and I admire your courage. It was huge to them. Huge - because they could not get past it. Do you really think that if adoption were the solution to all crisis pregnancies there would be so many Irish abortions every year. I'd like to point out I have no problm with the term foetus or baby. These are simply medical definitions s the are terms; embryo, blastocyst, zygote and fertilized ovum. Tell me, do you regard fertilized ova to have the same rights as a woman?

Anonymous - 17/08/2005 12:42

Charlotte, I THINK SOME PEOpLE SEEM TO BE CONFUSING A LIBRARION WHO ( correct me if 'm wrong) provides or facilitates he provision of informaiton - with a counsellor who advises or provides advice.

Anonymous - 17/08/2005 13:26

Charlotte (cbreen) I am not inside in your office while you and the girl are there. Therefore I cannot see what is going on. I would be entitled therefore to be suspicious of what is going on in the office. I trust no-one where abortion is concerned and I look for any area that could contribute to this problem. The figures for women going abroad for abortions is very high. The area for adoptions is very low or non-existant. Now there is something radically wrong here. If anything the figures should be at least even. The scales are in favor of abortion. This is not right at all! Someone or some organisation are making some serious money from this. This is what I would put it down to. Post-abortion counscelling is a service that even pro-life campains are into now. Therefore there must be something to be gained from this and I have very serious concerns about it.

Anonymous - 17/08/2005 16:14

Anon 12:42 If there is a difference between a librarian and a counscellor then abortion information should be taken out of the hands of a librarian because she knows nothing of what she is providing information for. If a librarian is allowed give out that particular information without having to say anything that is disgraceful in my eyes. We could all print out leaflets informing people how to do all sorts of wrong things like how to rob the old people, how to hire a hit man, how to abuse children ect. To think then that a simple librarian is doing nothing wrong is senseless!

Anonymous - 17/08/2005 16:27

Anon 12:38 The last thing that I would say is that I had the courage to see the pregnancy through. I Did Not have courage. I was scared throughout all my pregnancy. I could use words like your blinding terror and sheer panic to exaggerate my situation but I couldn't be bothered. I was simply as scared as every other woman that chose abortion instead. It was the simplicity of patience that saw me through and nothing else. I did not do a great thing in my eyes. I may have made someone else happy but I didn't make myself happy. I too lost a human being just like you. It doesn't matter where the child is. I still lost it. I am crying inside for that lost child just as much as you are nearly every day of my life. This is what you are missing because you haven't got the experience of adoption. If I had the courage that you speak of then I shouldn't be crying anymore. I should be celebrating and feeling so proud of myself. There is a feeling of survival after the birth which you would have after the abortion. Again it is the same feeling. Stop trying to make out that your case is more painful than mine because it is not. We are both the same with that tiny difference of patience coming between us.

Anonymous - 17/08/2005 16:47

I would say that you seem to have great courage. You were lucky that patience saw you thru. Patience does not however negate rape, or cure extreme medical complications. I would say you did do a great thing - you gave someone else the joy of child. Remember tho, that not every woman cries inside after an abortion. How would you know what the cases I have seen, are like? You have not seen them and every womens experience is clearly not the same as some have abortions and some have their babies adopted - for many different reasons.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 17/08/2005 17:00

Anonymous Posted: 17/08/2005 16:14; Provision of information is a basic right. As is free speech. (And yes, we're still talking about Ireland here, as this is an Irish discussion board.) By your example, a librarian couldn't provide a physics student with a nuclear physics book unless they had a thorough understanding about nuclear physics. And of course, there are plenty of people who would love to see information surpressed so as to hide from reality and impose their view of the world on people. That's called censorship. Not something we want to have happening. Except you, it would seem.

Anonymous - 17/08/2005 18:23

In the rare cases that you talk about where is your patience lying? Do you think in the case of rape that there would be less time involved getting over the ordeal than if you followed through with the pregnancy. Are you thinking that three months will help hugely in solving this particular problem. Have you taken into account the time involved in allowing for the body to return to normal after the abortion? Have you allowed the amount of time involved in the amount of guilt there is in the destruction of a human life for this woman. Fair enough, you may not feel guilty but what about the woman that does. Have you allowed for that woman's time and patience? Because the case I am talking about in particular is a case of rape, remember there is a double tradedy here. Have you allowed for her time? Could not her time and her guilt be alleviated by following through with the birth? Why does this woman have to experience two extremes? A rape and an abortion. Surely one is enough. Adoption isn't an extreme. It is a middle ground and surely in the case of a rape it would be a lot healthier for the woman. By having this PATIENCE at the time I therefore saved myself from the future of this Type of guilt. But it doesn't mean that I am free of guilt. I am left with the Type of guilt of giving my child away to someone else.

Anonymous - 17/08/2005 21:31

Please could someone put a percentage on these 7000 abortions, to give us facts on exactly how many are as a result of rape and how many are as a result of EXTREME medical complications because i was under the impression that these both combined were of a very low excuse for an abortion.

Anonymous - 17/08/2005 23:26

Anon 16:47 I deal with the public every day of my life and I also know of cases where women have had abortions as well as the circumstances behind them. Yes, they were all differant and yet everyone of them were very suitable for adoption also. I also know of women who were adopted and were Determined to keep their babies for this reason alone. So your post-adoption anxiety claim does not work in all cases either. In fact it works the complete opposite and they do not opt for any of the ones that we are talking about.

Anonymous - 18/08/2005 01:57

Charlotte (cbreen) If my daughter was under 18 and you showed her this information, then I would have a huge problem with you. I do not want my daughter to suffer this agony for the rest of her life. What age group are you giving this information to? If my daughter is under 18 I am not imposing my view - I am Protecting my daughter!

Anonymous - 18/08/2005 08:49

Yes, in the case of rape women have felt that they can put it behind them quicker and better if they do not have a constant physical physical reminder every minute of the day for 9 months. Yes I have taken into account the time involved for the body to recover after abortion. Perception or degree of guilt is different for every womena and remember not all of them look on abortion the way you do. Remember there is a double trauma too. The horror of rap and he trauma of childbirth giving directly caused by the rape. I'm not sure about adoption being healthier for the woman - perhaps she would feel like giving birth as a result of rape was like her mind and body being raped all over again 9 months later. Have you taken into count how long it takes a womens body, already trumaize, to recover from childbirth? For what it's worth, I don't think you hav any need to feel guilt. You brought another human being into the world and provided him or her with a loving home, wonderful parents and brought joy to a couple who longed for child.

Anonymous - 18/08/2005 10:16

Why would you have a problem with your 17 yar old daughter having access to all the available information on abortion. If she were 10 or 12, I would say yes, you are proteting her. But at 17 are you not just censoring or restricting the infomation you are choosing to let another (in all probability - sexually active) woman who is capable of childbearing - see.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 18/08/2005 11:23

Anonymous Posted: 17/08/2005 21:31 No-one needs to excuse abortion. And certainly, they do not need to excuse it to you. It is their choice to have an abortion, just as it was your choice not to. To: Anonymous Posted: 18/08/2005 01:57 and in response to:Anonymous Posted: 18/08/2005 10:16, "The child shall have the right to freedom of expression; this right shall include freedom to seek, receive and impart information and ideas of all kinds, regardless of frontiers, either orally, in writing or in print, in the form of art, or through any other media of the child's choice." (U.N. Convention on the Rights of the Child, Article 13 (1), 1989) Freedom of information is a right. I don't believe one can deny services to a person at age 12 who is carrying out a school project and looking up information. If she or he is curious about the world, and not receiving the full information she/he requires at school/home, and wishes to make a broader study of any subject, then she/he is entitled to information. Basically, the argument you are making is that if your 12 year old is looking for information, then you as her parent should be informed as to what she is looking at. I disagree. She is entitled to privacy. Now if on the other hand a distressed girl/teenager/woman came into a public service looking for information on where to get an abortion, efforts would be made immediately to help her, and get her to a professional counselor for the aid she obviously needs. Patently in a situation like that, which is the only situation where a librarian could know there was a potential crisis pregnancy, support is the key need.

Anonymous - 18/08/2005 12:57

Charlotte - I am Anonymous Posted: 18/08/2005 10:16 re: the possiblity of a 12 year old seking information and have read the above, I now stand corrected.

Anonymous - 18/08/2005 13:09

Charlotte (cbree) You say 17. Yet you are on the weird understanding that I need to protect my daughter up to the age of 12 only. What kind of rubbish is that! You have also left a question mark hanging over the age 13-17. I take my role as a parent very very seriously. I will fight and protect every one of my seven children until they at least reach the age of 18. I Love every one of my children so much and I will allow no-one to disturb that. If my daughter went to you under that age group I would expect to have you to immediately inform me because she is under my protection. I believe that parents rights are being violated here and maybe this needs to go to a European court.

Anonymous - 18/08/2005 13:20

Charlotte (cbreen) You are using the wrong examples in your comparisons with information on abortion! They are two very differant forms of information! The examples that I gave you earlier would come much closer than your ones! Therefore I am right when I say that a librarian doesn't understand the information that she is giving out!

Anonymous - 18/08/2005 14:22

firstly I would just like to say to everyone who reads this that we as humans should judge no-body. On the subject of abortion it brings tears to my eyes when I do hear of women of any age having abortions because of fear, uncertainty, etc...... and it hurts most to hear of women that do have abortions for selfish reasons. Can I just put this into perspective for women who have had abortions - not because it would damage the mothers health but because they feel they would not cope. 'do you think of the people, both single and with partners who long for the touch of a baby in their arms , to nurse, to love, to watch them grow?' I can understand that people feel fear but as so many people have asked - who are we to take a life - and yes it is a life when there are millions of people in this world that would give their right arm to be given such a blessing? It would break my heart if abortion was legalised here as I do value life so much and I do believe that there are a vast majority of women having abortions out of pure convenience - I hope I can be proved wrong but I fear not - like that every situation is different but to everyone I would please question as another person has ' if abortions were made legal in Ireland from the year dot' who would be here to express their opinions on this site?

Anonymous - 18/08/2005 16:09

I never said that a child over 12 does not need protection. I merely picked an example. A 12 year old on average will need to be sheltered more so than a 14 or 15 year old and they themselves will need that little bit more that a young woman of 17 (as I said almost certainly sexually active and capable of concieving) unless of course one wants to smother (and I do not mean that in he literal sense of course) all of one\'s offspring indefinetely and over-protect them from the real world.

Anonymous - 18/08/2005 16:14

Anon, if abortions (which are happening anyway and won't just go away) were legal here, we would be able to access afe legal abortion without panicing towards. We could think out our options much earlier and much more calmly. Mdical abortiosn wuld become an option and abortions (except in reae cases) would be below th 12 week limit.

Anonymous - 18/08/2005 17:07

Being an adopted person I consider myself lucky that abortion wasn't in Ireland 20 years ago and I can't help feeling personally insulted with people who dismiss the right to life. I might not have been here and my adoptive parents would have never experienced the joy of having a child, as a mother myself I believe, the most precious gift in the world.

Anonymous - 18/08/2005 18:12

Anon 16:14 No, we would be told to shove our opinions because there is nothing at all we can do about it just like we are told to get a life and stop whinging where the smoking ban is concerned!

Charlotte(cbreen) - 18/08/2005 18:23

Anonymous Posted: 18/08/2005 13:09, I never mentioned 17 at all. That was another poster. The examples I gave were firstly of a 12 year old looking up information for the sake of information. The second example was the situation of being confronted with a distressed girl/woman looking for information on abortion provision. Different situations entirely. While a child's parents would generally be informed if a distressed child was found in any public service office, if that child were looking for abortion information, and became upset at the idea of contacting her family, I think most people would be inclined to contact either the police, social services or a counselor and let them take over, as most cases of child abuse involve a family member or someone close to the family. But these are extreme examples. You are stating that you have the right to find out about what your child access in the library. I believe even in the US, the government have to have a warrant to secure such information. And even with that in mind, you would only be able to find out about books checked out by your child. What they read or research in paper form in the library is not recorded in any way. While I understand that you want to keep your children safe, I still find it interesting that you are so keen on parents rights, but would refuse a right guaranteed to children under the UN convention.

Nuala(IJF11826) - 18/08/2005 22:33

Charlotte, you made a very valid point on how hush hush and clouded in Catholic Ireland & keeping up with the Jones we still are, no one is prepared to put their name where their mouth is! I'm 28 and was adopted when I was 7 months old. I love my adopted parents & family very much and had a happy well rounded healthy childhood, thank God. When I was 21 I had an abortion so I think these experiences have qualified me to speak from both sides of the fence. The problem is not whether to legalise abortion or not in Ireland, it's as legal as drugs, if you want it, you'll get it. The problem is severe lack of options, social predjudice and lack of sex education. We need to education our future adults on the reality of their actions. We need to make adoption a socially acceptable option again. (In 2003, 4 children were put up for adoption in Dublin) how many young and incapable mothers are going around with children while two parent couples who can provide a better home are going without? Is this best for the child who will become an adult in our society? Fundamently, each case is not different, there is an unwanted pregnancy and the mother is in a panic and doesn't know what to do? Solution? We all & I very much include myself in this, need to learn to take social responsibility for our actions. You might wonder after my preaching on the option of adoption why I choose abortion - fear. I got married recently and haven't told my husband. It's too hard.

Anonymous - 19/08/2005 00:41

Charlotte, anon 17/08 21.31 here. Interesting, i never said that i was ever even pregnant, How would you know if i've had either a baby or abortion????? I don't like that comment. It makes me somewhat uncomfortable about how you're using this site and don't give me that you automatically assumed i didn't have an abortion or had a baby, i didn't give the assumption of either when i posted my very short message and not everyone on this site have done so either. Why did you automatically assume i did, to me that's a very strange comment! If you have a way of tapping into anonymous posters then you should be put off the site.. As for using the word 'excuse' then maybe i should have said something like 'reason' or used a more appropriate word. I didn't mean for people to excuse themselves to me at all, but there seems to be some posters including yourself that are giving the illusion that a lot of abortions are carried out from rape and extreme medical complications. I myself think thats a bit misleading. And yes i do think that there should be a statistic put on abortion, that way we'd know what our country is dealing with, e.g if rape is the main result for abortion, if it,s lack of support from the father, if it's medically impossible to carry on the pregnancy, if the woman can't handle it or if it's just convenient, that way we could possibly have the resourses at hand to these women that need them.

Anonymous - 19/08/2005 00:56

Charlotte on the topic of the u.n convention there ars several rights for children but not all of those rights are upholded by the government, never mind the parent. And though the governments have an obligation to abide by this, some rights may involve changing excisting laws which seem to take forever and some of these rights are still in the process of being implemented by the different countries that signed this agreement. So the u.n convention on the rights for children is not the best example.

Anonymous - 19/08/2005 02:37

If a child's parents are generally informed - how are there so many parents out there not knowing that their child had an abortion! How are young girls able to "pretend" they are staying with friends for a weed-end and still able to go over to England and have an abortion! How are some of these girls UNDER the age of 18!

Anonymous - 19/08/2005 02:40

Why wasn't Anon's post 21:31 answered properly? Why are you hiding this vital information?

Anonymous - 19/08/2005 02:45

Charlotte (cbreen) In the case of a distressed girl/teenager/woman, what age group are you starting with?

Anonymous - 19/08/2005 03:22

Charlotte (cbreen) You quoted the UN convention law to me on the rights of the child. First of all, the freedom of expression is Not there even for us adults. Some of my posts on this site have been cut in half! If my child is very angry I will tell my child to be quiet and not to be so rude. The child can express itself even less in school because of having to conform and behave. The child in school is Told what to learn and Not what he/she wants to learn. Looking up projects for school is a Right that belongs to the school. For us adults accessing information from government departments, statistical breakdowns on abortion and insurance companies is an impossiblity! However the rights of the child under this law seem to be suddenly elevated in the access of information to abortion all right! In fact it is so ELEVATED that the child is helped out ALL the way. Right over to England and back without the parents knowledge!! UNBELIEVABLE!

Charlotte(cbreen) - 19/08/2005 11:45

To: Nuala (IJF11826) Posted: 18/08/2005 22:33, ------------------------------------------------- Thanks. "The problem is severe lack of options, social predjudice and lack of sex education." That's exactly where I see the current situation/problem too. Until those elements change, it seems unlikely that abortion is going to disappear. To Anonymous Posted: 19/08/2005 00:41, formerly:anon 17/08 21.31 -------------------------------------------------------------------- My point is not made directly aimed at you. I've no idea who you are and you could be the Anon's making any of the other comments on the site. If you want to be anonymous, don't expect to get a completely individual response. My previous comment to your point was: "Anonymous Posted: 17/08/2005 21:31 No-one needs to excuse abortion. And certainly, they do not need to excuse it to you. It is their choice to have an abortion, just as it was your choice not to." I made no assumptions about your reproductive status. Your reproductive status is none of my business and is, frankly, of little interest to me. As to my 'giving the illusion that a lot of abortions are carried out from rape and extreme medical complications."[Posted: 19/08/2005 00:41], I believe I've categorically stated that i support a woman's right to reproduce when where and with whom she chooses. I made no mention of extreme cases in my general support of a woman's right to access a valid medical service. To:Anonymous Posted: 19/08/2005 00:56 -------------------------------------- We aspire as a civilization to gives appropriate rights to all. Freedom of information is such a right, freedom of expression is another. Freedom of access to valid medical procedures is another. "Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp. Or what's a heaven for?" (Robert Browning) To:Anonymous Posted: 19/08/2005 02:37 -------------------------------------- Young people have a right to travel. I've never organized getting anyone, of any age, into or out of a country for the purposes of obtaining an abortion. But I'd say as the child in question managed to evade her parents eyes long enough to get pregnant, perhaps she's learned a few tricks on how to evade them. Teenagers can manage to pull the wool over their parents eyes quite well without assistance from anyone else. We were all teenagers. Surely you remember hoodwinking your parents a few times. Seems like the start of a nice conspiracy theory 'though. To:Anonymous Posted: 19/08/2005 02:40 -------------------------------------- This is a discussion board. I don't believe anyone here is responsible for production of information for you to peruse. Who exactly are you accusing of hiding results? If it is the government, then submitting a request under the freedom of information act might work for you. The following web site: http://www.oasis.gov.ie/government_in_ireland/government_and_politics_at_national_level/offices_of_state/freedom_of_information.html has links to how to obtain information from the government departments in Ireland. To:Anonymous Posted: 19/08/2005 02:45 -------------------------------------- The age of sexual consent in Ireland is officially 17, although oral and lesbian sex is legal at 15. The following information is from the Foreign affairs web site (foreignaffairs.gov.ie/information/ publications/roc/iii.asp): SNIP Sexual consent. 72. Outside of marriage, 17 years is the age of consent for both heterosexual and homosexual intercourse. Marriage. 73. The current minimum age for marriage is 16 years. The High Court may grant exemption from this requirement. END SNIP So legally in Ireland, there seems to be a distinction whereby people of 15-18 are perceived as young adults with many of the basic rights in practice, if not in theory or law. I'd say in practice, were I to be put in this position (and I repeat, I no longer provide public service as a librarian, but work privately in an unrelated area), I'd treat anyone 16 or over as a semi-adult, trying to put them in contact with their parents, but if they refused, respecting their opinion. Anyone under 16, I'd give them a choice of their parents or a counseling service or the gardai. and here's the rub. If the child in question panics, they'll run, and it would be entirely illegal under the law to attempt to stop them .So I'm err on the side of trying to keep a distressed person calm and into the hands of a neutral state service to act as mediator between the child and her parents. To:Anonymous Posted: 19/08/2005 03:22 -------------------------------------- I am not a moderator on this or any site, and so have no responsibility for cutting posts. I can only assume if the editor cut your posts, then they were considered outside of the bounds of the terms of use you agreed to when signing into this site. "If my child is very angry I will tell my child to be quiet and not to be so rude." Interesting concept. How do you enforce that? How's it working out for you? "Looking up projects for school is a Right that belongs to the school." A child could look up information in a book shop, a library outside of school, a friend house....If a child wants information, they will try and find it. I'd prefer they get accurate facts rather than the rubbish generally circulated by circles of friends. As to your bizarre reference to someone helping children get to England, I refer you to my reply to "To:Anonymous Posted: 19/08/2005 02:37" earlier in this post.

Anonymous - 19/08/2005 13:29

Charlotte (cbree) Are you trying to tell me that my daughter can go across to England, knock on the door of an abortion clinic and ask for an abortion just like that! Do you think that I have come down on the last shower! SOMEONE is helping my Daughter and SOMEONE is signing her into the clinic WITHOUT my knowledge! I would DEMAND that this SOMEONE comes out from their hiding place and pick up the TAB that is left over from the abortion. Where is this SOMEONE when my daughter is crying away in her bedroom at night and I wondering what in God's name is wrong with her!! Where is that SOMEONE when I have to try and SHOVEL food down her throat because she cannot eat. Where is that SOMEONE when my daughter doesn't want to go to school or work anymore! My daughter may slip out of my hands in every area of her life. I'll try and deal with these areas as they arise. In the case of abortions this SOMEONE is an adult helping my child to harm another child! That is abuse and nothing else! And my rights as a parent have indeed been violated!

malcolm(milon) - 19/08/2005 13:29

Haven\'t read all this discussion but coming from a different angle,how about government grants for vasectomy? It is actually getting harder (and more expensive) to obtain, in the West anyway. A simple 20 minute procedure and all unwanted pregnancies a thing of the past! Let\'s face it, the single most important issue in the world is over-population.

Anonymous - 19/08/2005 15:07

What about your childs right not to be pushed inton an adult world and have childbirth and all that accompanies forced onto her young body.

Anonymous - 19/08/2005 15:12

Malcolm - sounds like a wonderful idea. Or subsidies for women below a certain oincome who's familes are complete in order fo them to have tubal ligaton if they wish.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 19/08/2005 16:00

Anonymous Posted: 19/08/2005 13:29 That is a question you will have to ask your daughter. Potentially it was a friend of hers, or a confidente, or whoever was the other parent. Potentially it was someone she asked for help. I have no way of knowing the answer to your question. But in the interest of research and helping put your mind at rest, I just went to yell.com, the Golden Pages for the UK, and entered abortion as a search term and came back with a list of phone numbers for advice and clinics. From there, a simple phone call would make an appointment. So it's not necessarily a conspiracy. If your daughter is of an age where she can travel independently, she could have made arrangements to have the abortion and pretended to go to friends house for 3-4 days, as a cover for travel time. If she is not of an age to travel independently, I've no idea how she managed to travel without questions being asked. She's the only person who can tell you. I completely understand that you are furious. It just seems a bit pointless to be furious with me.

Anonymous - 19/08/2005 19:39

Charlotte (cbreen) I am very sorry if you feel that I am targeting you. I am actually targeting the negative areas where abortion is concerned. I am specifically referring to you because you appear to know more and can answer the questions better. I would ask you please not to take any of these as a personal attack on you. It is an attack on the WHOLE of society if you like in this subject of abortion. I have no intention of giving up yet. There are still more questions to be asked. I may not get all the answers I am looking for here and if I have to I will look for further information else where. Will you then agree with me to answer any further questions I have at this moment in time?

Anonymous - 19/08/2005 20:02

ref Malcolm We're into an over-populated world now! Yet if you just looked at Ireland alone and just went into peoples houses what would you think that you would find. Large families are a thing of the past. Three or four children is the max now. There are a huge number of people with big huge fancy houses that have one child. Inside in this house they could have up to 15 rooms. They have 4-5 bedrooms to spare that never get used! You could fit at least 10 children in these rooms. But that is what people in Ireland are into now. There big huge fancy house is more important than unwanted human beings!

Anonymous - 19/08/2005 20:14

Anon 15:o7 What about the right of the child to have a different perspective on childbirth than you have!

Anonymous - 19/08/2005 23:34

Is there anyone on this site who knows what advice the abortion clinics are giving young girls who are coming from Ireland?

Anonymous - 20/08/2005 01:29

Charlotte, anon 17/08/05 21.31 & 19/08/05 00.41 here. Of course you aimed it directly at me, that's plain to see , but that does'nt bother me. You said that i made a choice not to have an abortion - your words were "it is their choice not to have an abortion just as it WAS your choice not to" , Maybe i can't comprehend english but hey i'm not going to get a straight answer from you so i'll just have to remain curious. One question i'd like you to answer though is 'How would you know what a crisis pregnancy is like'?? You've previously said you've never been in one, so how would you know what it feels like?? And although you've already confirmed it , YES i have being in a recent crisis pregnancy and as you have also confirmed YES i carried through with the pregnancy and now have a wonderful, beautiful baby daughter. On a general note, not directed to you, My opinion on this is: that i was in complete despair when i discovered i was pregnant and my head was so mixed up at the time i couldn't think straight so i was incapable of making any decision nevermind a hasty decision. And the choice to have an abortion or not has to be made quickly , hence a lot of these women making the wrong decision and regretting it for life. I felt that if i had emotional support from the childs dad it would've being an enormous help. In the end what swayed me against abortion was photos of foetuses AND developed babies post abortion and information on what the different procedures are for different stages of the pregnancy, to me it was horrific, and i swear i got physically sick afterwards , those images will never leave my mind, i don't think even alzeimers could erase them but i'm so, so glad i saw them because otherwise theres a very big chance my little girl wouldn't be here today. Looking at her now what makes me even consider i should've had a choice of discarding her. What i'm saying is that yes it's the most horrible situation to be in but a lot of abortions are chosen on impulse. i DIDN'T WANT TO BE PREGNANT, I CERTAINLY DIDN'T WANT A BABY, I HAD MAJOR CHILDBIRTH PHOBIA (a previous birth, 15 yrs ago, 34 hours of the most terrible agonising pain you could ever imagine, no pain relief, a forceps and 18 stitches to sit on afterwards and then an infection), I HAD NO SUPPORT FROM THE DAD, I AM NOT FINANCIALLY SECURE , I HAD SEVERAL HEALTH COMPLICATIONS which required hospital admittance and bed rest for the most of the pregnancy, but i got through it and it wasn't the end of my life as i'd pretty much thought at the time. A CRISIS PREGNANCY DOES NOT MEAN A CRISIS BABY , i've just realised that. I love her to bits and i'm so proud of her and i thank God every day for my precious gift. Asked this time last year i wouldn't have been able to answer you without choking on tears because i so did not want to be pregnant!

Anonymous - 20/08/2005 01:36

Nuala posted 18/08/05 22.33 , You may be qualifyed to speak on both sides of the fence but i was very insulted by your comment that two parent couples can provide a better home for a child, are you qualifyed to speak on that too, I am a one parent mother, young , very capable . Not every two coupled home is a happy home, theres sometimes abuse, fighting, etc so i very much resent that comment. From what i see going on around me i'm so glad i'm on my own.

Anonymous - 22/08/2005 08:53

In fact, if she were travelling independantly and travelled at the weekend, she could have gone over on Friday evening and be back by unday afternoon and used the excuse of going to a friends house for the weekend

Anonymous - 22/08/2005 10:02

Anon 20:14 - a child by the very definition of being a child should naot need to have any perspectivre on childbirth whatsoever until they naturally emerge into an adult world. It should not be something that is forced upon them (or anyone).

Anonymous - 22/08/2005 10:27

Charlotte - 34 hours of agony and no pain releif! It is illegal to treat even animals on a farm like that (I don't mean for a moment to insult you by comaparing you to an animal, of course) so I don't know how any hospital staff could have treated a woman in labour like that. I would be very interested to know what country you gave birth in. I know from my own family memebers (2 sisters, an aunt and a cousin, in fact) that many of Ireland's city hosptals have had, for the past 20 years or so (since the early 80's) a pain relief on demand policy with an epidiral on request provided it's not too late into the labour. Also they have a strict 14 / 18 hour policy in order that the woman doesn't become completely exhausted. - Unless, obviously, she is having an elective section with epidural. I cannot begin to imagine the kind of tear that must occur inside of someone's body in order that they require 18 stitches.

Anonymous - 22/08/2005 10:30

Anon 23:34 - it may depend on how young your daughter is (or how old she can manage to look) . From what I know women are referred to an Irish clinic, such as the IFPA to the BPAS who then put them in touch with one of their clinics in Britain.

Anonymous - 22/08/2005 11:05

Anon 10:02 If that is the case then the child should have no perspective on sex either because this is what adults do! We should then up the age for having sex of any form to the age of 18!

Charlotte(cbreen) - 22/08/2005 11:13

To:Anonymous Posted: 19/08/2005 19:39 ----------------------------------------- I'm a librarian, and as I said before, we'll try and get information to anyone who asks for it. I'll do my best to locate information for you, if I can find it within a reasonable amount of time. Sorry if that sounds non-committal, but I've a job too, so there are practical limits on my time. And as I've said, the whole "You," and 'One' things comes into play here. It's easy to sound as if we're judgmental of one another, when it's actually a misplaced bloody pronoun! To: Anonymous Posted: 20/08/2005 01:29 (and formerly anon 17/08/05 21.31 & 19/08/05 00.41). --------------------------------------------- Please see point above on missed pronouns. My point, which may have been badly phrased, was that "You" (those who are anti-the concept of abortion) have the choice not to. Just as "they" (those who support the right to have an abortion) chose to do so. Regarding my experience of crisis pregnancies, I've seen people (who I have no intention of identifying in anyway) go through the emotional upheaval before and after making a decision in a crisis pregnancy. I also am human and have both empathy and imagination. I don't believe you can see anyone go through the decisions involved in crisis pregnancies and not be obliged to sit down and have a very long and hard 'think' as to how you feel and might react in such a situation. My opinions on education and contraception being key in these areas stem from this time and have evolved or changed, or been discarded in the 15 years of so since then, as new information or experience came my way. I've seen women have their babies and be tremendously happy. I've seen women have their babies and have a seriously difficult time coping, or choosing to give their child up for adoption. I've seen women who terminate pregnancies react both well and badly in the aftermath. And i still do not believe I have the right to tell anyone of them they did not have the right to make their own decision. I'm glad your situation worked out for you. But just because it worked for you, does not make your answer the only answer. Everyone has the right to choose their own path.

Anonymous - 22/08/2005 15:05

Anon 11:05, in my opinion you are completely wrong. Chldren from quite a young age need complete and factual information on sex and its consequences. It is pecisely this which helps prevent unwanted pregnancy and thus abortion. If you think that you can enforce a situation where nobody under 18 has sex that you do not live in the real world.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 22/08/2005 15:22

To: Anonymous Posted: 20/08/2005 01:29 I believe you intended to direct your query to Anonymous Posted: 20/08/2005 01:29, and not to me. She is the poster who said she had been in labour for 34 hours, in reply to a previous posting of mine.

Charlotte(MBM29174) - 22/08/2005 16:18

Charlotte 15:22 I think you are a bit mixed up as well on your post!

Anonymous - 22/08/2005 16:26

Anon 15:05 You do not live in the real world either if you think that a girl under the age of 18 cannot have a child. There are some fine strong women out there who are far more mature than a lot of us adults and who would make wonderful mothers! Look at how young some of the women are in the Third World! You have the ignition turned on in the car but you are still sitting in it because you are afraid to drive the car.

Anonymous - 22/08/2005 16:54

Of course girls as ypoung as 13 are capable of concieving a carry a child to term and giving birth. That does not make it right (in act under 16 it would be the result of statuary rape) not does it make her capable of being a good mother. Yes, there are plenty of "fine strong" women out there of all ages, that does trait alon edoes not qulaify them as good mothers. Yes, children as youngas 14 give birth in the third world but that does not make it right or good. Think of the society they live in. It is totally different to ours. o you know that damage that giving birth at the age of 14 can do to the developing body of the child (I se this word advisedly) giving birth. In fact there are know campaigns of education aimed at tribal societies to imform tham about th dangers of this. And this is totally aside for the incapability of an 8 year old to ecnomicaly support a child on her own. With all respect, I think you are thinking backwards in terms of the furtue development of our society.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 22/08/2005 17:32

The joys of cutting and pasting! Apologies for confusion... My last post should have read: To:Anonymous Posted: 22/08/2005 10:27 I believe you intended to direct your query to Anonymous Posted: 20/08/2005 01:29, and not to me. She is the poster who said she had been in labour for 34 hours, in reply to a previous posting of mine.

Anonymous - 22/08/2005 19:11

Anon 16:54 The average age in the developed world for a girls periods is 12-14. It becomes rarer before that and after that. Nature would have never allowed this to happen if it didn't think that we were capable of producing a child. Nature is wiser than we are. This also means that nature is allowing under 18's to experience sex. The two of them go together. You cannot have one without the other unless you are the Blessed Virgin of course! I too would prefer if Nature delayed it a bit longer but because it hasn't yet done it, we have to accept the resposibility of what it has given us. That means that under 18's are capable of both. Remember too about the naivity that young girls have in relation to sex. Some men can hurt them and this can have a drastic effect on them in the future. They can also give them an awful disease. You are now left with a comparison that could actually be worse than childbirth!

Anonymous - 23/08/2005 00:25

anon 22/08/05, it\'s anon 20/08/05 here. It was here in ireland i had my baby. If you\'d like to call gas and air pain relief then i\'ve had it, that\'s all. It was 15 years ago and the epidural was NOT available in that hospital at that time nor was it two years later when my friend gave birth, it is now. I was young and unmarried at the time and i do believe that some people back then did have a problem with this. I went through a full 34 hours of pain before giving birth, i was so bad i begged a nurse to give me an injection to knock me out . One of the nurses that had been on duty when i was admitted couldn\'t believe i was still there when she came back on that night. The main reason i had a forceps was because i was so exhausted i couldn\'t push the baby out . The forceps requires cutting the perrenium area so i believe that\'s why i had so many stitches plus my baby was over 9lb in weight. It doesn\'t matter one little bit to me whether you believe me or not, the point i was making was that i found myself in a crisis pregnancy recently and did have a fear of giving birth, i was so nervous when i went into labour but i had the epidural this time and it was like a walk in the park compared to before, acturally i would consider it to be pretty much pain free now, not even a moan came out of me, last time i was roaring like a pig.

Anonymous - 23/08/2005 08:36

The average age of menarche in Europe is 12.8 years. It is younger in the U.S. Do you have any concept of the damage giving birht could do to the body of a 13 year old girl, not to mention the lasting trauma to her psychologically. That is why we must educate educate educate so that when young people (and I\'m referring here to those over the legal limit of 16) engage in sex, they do so when THEY are ready and they take all neccessary precautions.

Anonymous - 23/08/2005 09:36

Anon 00.25, when I say your story is unbelieveable I certainly didn't mean to imply that I didn't beliEve you just that it's incredible in this day and age in the western world. We are all horrified to think of women in the 3rd world having long agonising labours with little assistnace but it's incredible that this could happen here. I know you can't say what hospital you're in but I know that my aunt had an epidural while giving birth over 20 years ago in a Dublin city hospital and 12 years ago, my sister almost had to argue to be allowed to continue her labour (she was on gas, air and pethidine injections) past 18 hours without opting for a c-section under epidural (she was a very fit strong lady and didn't seem to tire at all). A colleague of mine had a forceps birth (her labour had been very tiring but not as bad as yours in the least) but, at her express request she as not cut [I am assuming you were referring to an episiotomy] but given local aneasthetic in the perimieum and allowed to tear naturally as it would tear along the weakest line and would heal faster. She was quite bruised and sore but only had 6 stitches

Anonymous - 23/08/2005 12:48

Anon 8:36 I hope that you are comparing your 13 year old giving birth to a 13 year old having an abortion. What damage does this do to the body or is the psychological damage worse?

Anonymous - 23/08/2005 12:56

I never mentioed a 13 year old having an abortion - mine or anyone else's - simply the damage that giving bith could do to a 13 year old girl herself not fully developed and also the psychological damage. And I stressed that we must educate to prevent this.

Anonymous - 23/08/2005 19:40

Anon 12:56 The same then can be said for a 13 year old going for an abortion, that is what you are saying isn't it!

Anonymous - 23/08/2005 23:56

Anon 23/08 9.36. I was quite young at the time and didn't even know i could request not to be cut, maybe my age, mid-teens, had a role to play in the way i perceived the pain, i don't know, but it was such a bad experience for me. I do know at that time i didn't care if i died as long as the pain went away. The exhaustion came from both the pain and lack of sleep. The pain level most definitely increased when they put the drip up to try speeding the labour. My partner back then had an argument with the doctor because of the length of the labour and I can still remember her coming into the delivery room and she didn't even wait for the contraction she just pulled the baby out, it felt like all my insides were being dragged out, if she had waited a few seconds i would've been able to push while she used the forceps but again this is only knowledge i gained afterwards. And as i said i had a big baby so that wouldn't have helped. Plus i got an infection afterwards which the doctor said was most likely due to some gauze that I passed three weeks after giving birth, it had been left inside me after the stitching. I could never understand how some women could say that childbirth was easy or even bearable for them but i suppose it affects different women in different ways. I can't say which hospital but it was not a city hospital, i live in Leinster. I did have this new child in the same hospital but if the epidural was not available there's no way on this earth i'd have gone there, i wouldn't even have considered it. So understandably i had a fear of giving birth again. Anyway thank God things have improved for the better and i can honestly say that the experience of my recent birth was an emotional , lonely time but practically pain free.

Anonymous - 24/08/2005 11:04

Anon 23.56. It honestly sounds like you gave birth in some medieval torture chamber rather than a hospital in modern Ireland. I certainly wouldn't even dream of having a baby without epidural and c-section on request.

Anonymous - 24/08/2005 19:15

i am 12 wks pregnant.A scan last mon has shown the baby has a high chance of down's syndrome.I am considering abortion.

Anonymous - 24/08/2005 22:30

Anon 24/08 , 11.04. It was my first birth and i had no idea that the pain was going to be so bad, i was under the impression it would be like a bad period pain, how young and naive i was. I agree, i certainly now would not consider giving birth without epidural.

Anonymous - 25/08/2005 12:06

Anon 19:15 - I first have to say that I support a womans right to choose in a crisis pegnancy situation. But I just thought I would tell you this... I know three parents of children with down\'s and all of them say their children are an absolute joy to them. These children are special and bring their own speacial gifts and joys. The are open, friendly, affectionate and full of joy. I have asked all of them, if they could give their child some ort of magic pill to take away their downs syndrome, would they consider it. All of them gave a resounding NO.

Bernadette(Mollieg) - 25/08/2005 12:33

I am 26 years old, i was pregnant when i was 17 by my own stupid mistake. I was in my leving cert year and had decided to have an abortion. This is a decision I had made on my own. May parents didn't know anything about this. I went to my nearest well woman clinic and got all the information I needed and was in the final stages of making the arrangements to go to the UK to have the abortion. I miscarried at 6 weeks so i didn't need to go in the end. You would not believe how easy once you are over 16 to have an abortion without your parents consent. It happens everyday of the week and there is nothing you can do to stop it from happening. Once you are over 16 your medical history is private and confidential from your parents or guardians. Which is right? So do you think that the people helping me plan my abortion where abusing me in some why by helping me get what I wanted - without my parents knowledge, who to this day don't know what happened to me. I don't think they abused me. They helped me at a time when I needed them the most. My parents would have helped me but i chose not to involve them so that the least amount of people around me got hurt by what had happened.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 25/08/2005 12:40

To:Anonymous Posted: 24/08/2005 19:15. Whatever choice you make, I suncerely hope it's the right one for you. I thought the follwoing might be useful. Downs Syndrome Ireland have a counselling service for parents. The following url gives details of that service and how to contact it. The counseller there may be able to help you in confidence. I hope it helps: http://www.downsyndrome.ie/national_resource_centre/counselling.html

Anonymous - 25/08/2005 22:04

Bernadette, Have you ever thought that what you did could have hurt your parents a lot more? The very fact that you haven't yet told them makes me suspect this to be true. Why were you not able to trust your parents at that time? What stopped you from telling your parents your story? Having my daughter going abroad like that (even if she was 40!) without telling her own mother absolutely kills me inside! You have no idea in the world how much a mother loves it's child until you are a mother yourself. Your child (who is as beautiful as you are) would mean the world to a huge amount of mothers out there. Your mother is one of the best friends that you will ever have in your life. How then could your mother possibly leave you down at this crisis time of your life! The child that you are carrying is as important as you were when you were born. The majority of mothers would help you all the way without having to resort to abortion.

Anonymous - 26/08/2005 01:38

Bernadette 12:33 When I read your post about a 16 year old's medical history being private and confidential from their parents, I went around to 10 different parents and asked them this question. Not ONE of them knew this at all

Anonymous - 26/08/2005 10:11

It's true - a 16 years-olds medical history is proivate and confidential frpom parents and guardians. I checked with my doctor.

Bernadette(Mollieg) - 26/08/2005 11:03

Anon 01.38 It most certainly is about your child having privacy about medical procedures over the age of 16. I would have thought that this would have been more commonly known. You need to speak to your GP about this is the next you visit. The only time time this does not apply is if heaven forbid your child was in an accident and your are down as next of kin then you are kept in the loop on all decisions other wise your child's medical history pass the age of 16 is private form you, unless your child tells you. Anon 22:04 The reason I don't want to tell my parents was because I was a shamed of what had happened to me as it was my own stupid mistake. The well woman clinic I went to ask me to tell my parents. But i didn't want to hurt them as much as I had hurt myself by letting it happen in the first place. I know they would have stood by me whatever decision I made. So I made my decision and then it was taken out of my hands.

Anonymous - 26/08/2005 13:00

Anon 10:11 Well it looks like us parents haven't got a clue about the law concerning our children! We have to go searching for this now! Is there anything else out there that we don't know about I wonder!

Anonymous - 26/08/2005 16:55

Bernadette, Why are you calling it your "own" stupid mistake? Didn't the man have any say in this! Didn't the lack of education have anything to say in this? Your shame with regards to your parents was ONLY because of the fact that they would have known that you had sex and not because you were pregnant. Lots of women say this when they are pregnant. "Now everybody will know that I Did It." Lots of young girls cannot speak to their parents about sex. This is like the forbidden fruit area. I can see my own daughters wince when I draw up that subject. They do not want to hear me. This then to me is a sign that the child has not become mature in this area. To put an immature person through an abortion is to me a savage abuse on them psychologically. What happen's then when maturity and understanding happens in their 20's? However from the 20's onwards they get better. It somehow clicks in that their mother has had sex too and that is why they are here to-day.

Anonymous - 26/08/2005 23:47

Where are under 18 year olds getting the money for an abortion Without their parents knowledge?

Anonymous - 29/08/2005 08:52

Anon 16:55. I think you are most incorrect. There are adlt women out there in ther 30's who canot talk to their mothers about sex, even tho' they can talk to their doct's, friedns and partners. Yet they knew from when they learned the facts of life at 10 or 11, that their mothers had sex too and this is how they came to be here.

Anonymous - 29/08/2005 10:45

Bernadette, I didn't exactly mean it literally like that! There is a much greater understanding when girls come into their 20's. The subject is far more approachable and easier to understand. Under that age group the subject tends to be avoided mainly due to embarrassment and immaturity. I believe sincerely that young girls under the age of 18 are not properly developed emotionally and mentally for an abortion.

Bernadette(Mollieg) - 29/08/2005 10:52

Anon 16:55 The reason I call it my own stupid mistake because it was my mistake not my parents not my friends mine. The fella involved put his hands up too and it was our stupid mistake. What happened was the condom burst on us. This could happened to anyone. The sex education i received was excellent from my parents and from my school. As for getting the money most teenagers are now working at the weekend and no matter what they say to their parents they do save and put a little by each week. When i was organising mine I had to borrow the money from a couple of friends. You would be surprised at the amount of my friends who offered to help. In a crisis you really discover who your frinds are.

Anonymous - 29/08/2005 13:27

Bernadette, You call people that help you to have an abortion friends?? I know girls who were not working at the weekends, went to England to have an abortion which costs roughly 1000.00 euro Without their parents knowledge. I reckon that they must be getting funding of some kind by Whoever is helping them.

Anonymous - 30/08/2005 15:50

In that peicament, I too would not have told my parents. In fat, I would have told as few peple as possible. A friend of mine had an abortion 6 years ago. At the time it cost 600 pounds - Irish. Just to give you an idea of the cost. If the guy takes his part in playing his responsibilty, that cost is halved. Even young people who do not have a part-tine job, will still save money out of their allowance. After that, you would be surprised at the number of their young friends ready and willing to come to the rescue in a crisis such as that.

Anonymous - 30/08/2005 16:25

Anon 14:25 God, you're a great help to parents aren't you! But if the child got in trouble with the law you would be fast to point the finger of blame on the parents wouldn't you? When it comes to the child who is under my control when it comes to abortion though I suddenly have no rights at all! Amazing!!

Charlotte(cbreen) - 30/08/2005 16:48

To:Anonymous Posted: 30/08/2005 16:25 I hope you meant to say 'care', rather than 'control'. A child who is under your care...

Anonymous - 30/08/2005 18:47

Charlotte (cbreen) Notice all the women that go for abortions make sure that they say that they have 'control' over their own bodies. You are trying to make out that parents are somehow the cause of abortions because of this control crack when in fact we 'care' about them deeply. Are you trying to divert attention away from the Whoever that takes the law into their own hands and think that they can do what they like with other people's children? These women not only have to deal with having an abortion but they have to live a lie for the rest of their lives from their parents when there is absolutely no need for it! The truth is the only way to go in all situations. It is only then that your consciouns is clear. People may have a problem with truth but living a lie turns you into a different type of person. If women want to get rid of the shame of abortion then this is where they need to start. Come out straight with it and tell at least your parents. Parents are aware that their children change even if the woman thinks she has covered it up well. You cannot live a lie for the rest of your life.

Bernadette(Mollieg) - 31/08/2005 09:34

Anon 16:45 I hope you mean care also. You don't control children you care for and guide them to the best of your ability. You can not control everything they do, even when they start having sex.

Bernadette(Mollieg) - 31/08/2005 11:08

Anon 18:47 I didn't have to have the abortion inthe end as I miscarried, but to this day nearly 10 years on I still haven't told my parents and have no intention of doing so. They don't have a clue as I have not changed as a person

Charlotte(cbreen) - 31/08/2005 11:26

Anonymous Posted: 30/08/2005 18:47, Each individual must attempt to control him or herself, but not another person. [*Please see note below] And while I truly believe, as you say, that honesty is the best policy, I also consider that if a parent believes that s/he is or should be 'controlling' as opposed to 'caring for and about' his/her children, those children are most unlikely to confide in a parent who will consider it a personal failing on the parent's part, that the child becomes pregnant in a crisis situation. Letting down their parents is an overwhelming shame to children. And scarily enough, the more caring the parent, the bigger the letdown the child may see themselves as being. [* For those who will say that abortion is taking control over the life of the unborn child, I reiterate that I believe the rights of the existing human (the mother) have a greater claim that those of the potential human (the foetus/unborn child). ]

Bernadette(Mollieg) - 31/08/2005 12:09

Charlotte you have hit the nail on the head as to why i never discussed this with my parents.

Anonymous - 31/08/2005 12:17

I believe that many of those posting here are very loving and caring of their young girls regardless of whatever crisis she may find herself in. Consider however, the scared 16 year old daughter of parents who seem wonderfully caring but are in fact control-freaks. I can think of half a dozen off-hand. In a crisis pregnnacy situation, all the girl can forsee is constant arguments thru-out her pregnancy about how this is all her fault, the shme, the expense etc. Constant haranguing after she has her baby and then sniping all the time about how she isn't bringing up the child right. Never having the freedom and opportunity which other girls her age are rightly entitled to. Being a virtual prisoner in her own home either becuase of the baby or being constantly told she cannot go here or there - being watched all the time. So looking down the line she sees her future as either years and years of this type of existence. Or giving up her studies, moving out and existing in a council flat with her child on minimum income support. Choosing adoption would still mean the endless arguments, followed by recrimination from her parents and the type of enforced guilt which given her age, she is not yet strong enough to withstand - followed by in mnay cases gradual alienation from parents. Now tell me, what frightened young 16 year old seeing a choices like that as being their only future, wouldn't go to England or wherever for a secret abortion. And NO this is not 50 years ago, or another country. This is REALITY - REALITY in IRELAND - TODAY - IN THE YEAR 2005. Maybe many of you good kind caring parents don't see that. Many other paents out there, don't want to see it. But I see that scenario played out, in homes and in minds many many times.

Anonymous - 31/08/2005 13:05

Charlotte and Bernadette, If you feel that parents are too caring and this makes it harder to tell them how are you getting the impression that your friends or Whoever is helping you seem to be more caring than the parents. My own mother was a very understanding person and she was my first priority to tell. I knew that of all people in the world that I had my mother. Her great care of me down through the years proved it all to me. She never left me down for a second and was a great defender for me. In your case Bernadette you were saved from having an abortion. God intervened in your life here so you cannot compare having an abortion to having a miscarraige. You didn't have to deal with the killing of your child. If you had your lie would have been a lot harder to deal with. A person does become changed after an experience like this. They have no choice. A mother who is greatly in tune with her children would most definately notice even the most sublest of differences and this makes many mothers anxious.

Anonymous - 31/08/2005 15:16

Charlotte (cbree) When someone is setting out to have an abortion are they taught that their rights as a human being are more important than the rights of the unborn child? This is the same as saying "I am better than you." I deserve to live more than you." You (the child) do not therefore have a part to play in this life and therefore are not wanted. I will then dispose of you because you are an interference in my life and as you can see society feels the same way". Is this how women going for an abortion "talk" to the unborn child? Is this genuinely the teaching that should be given to the woman? Is this one of the reasons that people aren't as bothered about murder in this country in the adult form anymore? Surely we need to start in the womb and teach that the unborn child is indeed as important as the mother. In my view if you are willing to kill an unborn child then you could be just as willing to kill an adult.

Anonymous - 31/08/2005 16:54

Anon: 13.05 - You say \"You didn\'t have to deal with the killing of your child\" I don\'t think this kind of comment helps anyone, particularly those women who have abortions.

Anonymous - 31/08/2005 18:02

Anon 16:54 That is what an abortion is or have you a preferance for the word abortion rather than killing. Do you prefer to put fancy names on something which actually means the same thing? This word abortion conjures up all the same images as killing!

Charlotte(cbreen) - 31/08/2005 18:28

Anonymous Posted: 31/08/2005 15:16 The opinion given was mine. I have no idea what someone 'setting out' to have an abortion is 'taught'. From a tribal point of view I believe a contributing member of the tribe is a stronger member of the tribe. I believe that a strong mother is a mother who wants to be pregnant (either by planning a pregnancy, or deciding while in a crisis pregnancy that they will continue with the pregnancy). And a strong mother is a mother who can support her child, both emotionally and financially. For those who think this is a mercenary opinion, I consider myself a realist. 50% of pregnancies in Limerick city are to teenagers. Lots of teenagers are unknowingly setting themselves and their children up in a poverty trap, from which they frequently never escape. For those who argue for more aid for teenage mothers, I would argue in favour of educating them as to the horrendous pressures of new parenthood, and encouraging them to wait to become pregnant until they are in a position to support themselves and their children in a manner in which they would want to see their children live. I believe that one should want to become a parent, not be forced into it. I believe that education and proper application of contraception is the only way we will see a lowering of abortion rates. I believe that until we have a method of 100% reliable contraception, abortion will always be a sad necessity. And despite the fact that an unborn child loses the chance of life this time around, I still support the woman's right to decide when she wants to become a mother. If you truly believe that means I'm going to go out and randomly murder people, then it is your right to hold that belief, however misguided and deluded I may feel it to be.

Anonymous - 31/08/2005 22:42

Anon 12:17 First of all I would like to say that in this frightened 16 year old example that she must have been given some kind of freedom first day in order to be pregnant. I know exactly what you mean about the 'control-freak' mother (or father as it was in my case). We are not all perfect human beings and we are not all perfect parents. There are times when I am angrier than other times (especially period time) there are times I am just not feeling well and there are times when I don't feel that I can cope as a parent. I worry about my children, how to keep food on the table, how to keep money flowing and about giving my child a happy home and a good education. If my child came home and told me that she was pregnant of course I would be upset. This would probably be my first response. I would not be upset for me but for her. There could possibly be a few days of this upset and then acceptance of the situation would replace the upset. In the back of my mind I would be intrigued by the idea of a new child coming into the world and then I would see myself really looking forward to it. The 'control freak' that you talk about might be a bit more exaggerated than me but she would still probably be travelling the same road. I have seen some parents change completely after a crisis pregnancy. Before this they associated with special people only and afterwards it is as if this snobbishness seem to vanish. Remember too that this 16 year old could be seeing something that is not there. Some parents have taken a completely different attitude to what the child was thinking. This is why it is vital that a parent is involved in a crisis pregnancy. A social worker should be assigned to take part in a crisis pregnancy so that if things are really difficult at home she could move into another home. This is what I did in my crisis pregnancy. I could not face my father and my mother thought that it would be better if I went to another family. Confrontation is a part of life. Putting a child through an abortion so that she does not have to face the "wrath" of her family is also a type of smothering on the part of Whoever is helping the girl. This Whoever, believes that shielding the child from confrontation would be better than having an abortion. That is wrong and does no favors for the child. How will this child cope with confrontation in the future? How will she manage in the workplace, if she becomes seriously ill, if she marries later on in life and has children of her own? Whoever is helping our children to have abortions without our knowledge would also want to face up to the future REALITY that they are giving the child.

Anonymous - 01/09/2005 08:38

Anon: 16.15 - women and girls who have abortions do not 'talk' to the foetus/embryo in any way shape or form. They simply want to put it all behind them. As Cbreen said - the rights of the existing human (the mother) have a greater claim than those of the potential human (the foetus).

Anonymous - 01/09/2005 15:05

Anon 8:38 It would be absolutely obvious that psychological talk would be taking place between the mother and child. When I was contemplating abortion I was constantly "talking" to the baby. I'm sure that a lot of women would have this to say as well. You are only going on outer appearances instead of looking more deeply into the mind of the woman.

Anonymous - 01/09/2005 15:11

Anon:22:42 - you say that the 16 year old must have had some freedom initially in order to become pregnant. Well, if you think you can control or know where you 16 year old is 24 X 7 / 365 then you really are deluding yourself. Half the girls in my 5th year calss in school wee sexually active (this as 20 years ago). Why did they not all become pregnaant? Belive me this was due far more to good luck than good management. Certainly as an adult the 16 year odl will need to know how to handle confrontation in work and in a home of her own but do you really thinki it is halthy to expose her to confrontation day in day out several times a day interminably? Would you accept it in the workplace as an adult, would you accept it ina home of your own as an adult - of course you wouldn't. Then why do you think it is acceptable to force it on a 16 year olf from a control-freak parent involved in a power struggle.

Anonymous - 01/09/2005 15:14

Do you think it would be acceptable to force a 16 year old to become a nun? Do you think it would be acceptable to force a 16 year old to become a teacher or a doctor? If you hafve answered no to thse questiosn then why do you think it's acceptable to force a woman of any age to become a mother. Parenthood should be a choice. A planned parent is a better parent.

Anonymous - 01/09/2005 16:47

Charlotte (cbreen) Your last line in your post 18:29 was not meant to be taken up as literally as you put it. It is just the way that some of us "could" possibly see things. It has been mentioned several times before. I know of one girl in particul who says that after having an abortion she cannot really judge murderers like she used to anymore because she feels as if she has no right to talk. I can certainly see where she is coming from.

Anonymous - 01/09/2005 18:42

ANON 15:14 Who is forcing anyone to be a mother when she is able to put her child up for adoption? Who says that a crisis pregnancy isn't planned for people who can't have children? Isn't it the ideal way to fill the gap for these childless couples? There is always higher thinking behind crisis pregnancies and this is one of them. You seem to be constantly steering away from this most necessary area. Can you not think of ideas that could encourage a woman to head this direction instead of abortion? What about a reward of some kind? Hopefully from the government. When I put my child up for adoption I didn't even get a bunch of flowers. I would like to hear your views on this one.

Anonymous - 01/09/2005 22:08

Anon 15:11 You asked a very good question when you asked why these other girls did not get pregnant. You say that they were sexually active but did you see them at it? Lots of teenagers pretend that they are doing it and there would have been no truth what-so-ever in it. You would have an awful lot of good luck then if you were never doing it, wouldn't you? It also appears to me that the confrontation that you are describing would be very rare or else you are exaggerating. There certainly could be help put in place in this area. People that help my daughter to have an abortion without consulting me are also involved in a power struggle. They are trying to win favor with the child and make themselves feel good. It would be far better if they took a holistic approach to an abortion and involve all the necessary people. No one has the right to take my child away like that. That should be a criminal offence!

Anonymous - 01/09/2005 22:35

I love your view on the tribal woman. It would also be a lovely way of conveying messages to our children in school. Publications in this type of format would go a long ways in educating our young people and could lead to a drop in abortions. Easy to understand story lines with a few pictures thrown in might be more acceptable in schools rather than the seriousness of talks that are there at the moment. Younger age groups could be especially targeted this way and really give them something to think about. Another more adult form could be used as one of the novels that they study for English for the Junior or Leaving Certificate.

Anonymous - 02/09/2005 09:08

Anon 15:05 - No I was not going on outwward appearances., In the minds of many women, they do not enter into any phchological dialogiue with the foetus. They just want the whole experience ove and to put it behind them.

Anonymous - 02/09/2005 10:13

anon 01/09. 15.14 I don't think it,s always a case of the planned parent being the best parent, that's my view anyway. And some studies have indicated that many children who are abused began as the very wanted children during pregnancy.

Anonymous - 02/09/2005 12:22

Anon 18.42, a girls who gives up her babay for adoption will ALWAYS be a mother. She will be the birth mother of the the babay she gave away. You do see that don't you?

Anonymous - 02/09/2005 12:24

Anon 22.08. Yes, sadly many of thse were actualy sexually active. The confrontatins I describe are NOT rare and believe me they are far from exaggerated.

Anonymous - 02/09/2005 23:22

Anon 12:22 Which would you prefer to be - a mother or a murderer? This is what you will have to deal with out there in society. This is the way a lot of us think. On top of that even if abortion was allowed into the country there could be a lot of big trouble. Places that would allow abortion could become places of hatred. Doctors who perform abortions could face worse. Girls seen going into abortion clinics could get called all these kind of horrific names. You have a long road ahead of you and you need to at least come up with some ideas on reducing abortion. There are a huge number of abortions that are totally unnecessary. If there are that many women going to the UK at the moment how many in God's name will there be if abortion is introduced in Ireland. Claiming that the figures will go down is only nonscence. They shouldn't be that high when they have to go to all this trouble to go abroad. If that figure was to double in Ireland we would all be in despair!

Anonymous - 03/09/2005 22:25

Anon 9:08 I would completely disagree with you on the psychological talk. If the talk isn't there before hand as you think it is, then it is certainly there afterwards. A large amount of women as you have seen from many of the posts cannot live with themselves, their relationships are strained and some go as far as having an imaginary grave in their garden. Saying that they just want to put the abortion behind them then - just doesn't add up! I believe that some women have been unfairly put through an abortion that they did not want. I believe that enough wasn't done to help them to make better choices and I believe that if some women had there time all over again they would never have chosen abortion.

Anonymous - 05/09/2005 09:44

Anon: 23.22 I would prefer to be neither. But then, as abortion does not come within the legal definition of murder, I wouldn\'t be either. calling woman who have abortions murderers helps no-one except fuels the hate harboured by those, some of whom seem to have with agendas of their own. You say that if abortion was allowed into the country there could be trouble in terms of hosptals performing abortions becomign places of hatred and doctors and women being targets of hatred. Are you really saying that that is a real justification for not legalising aborion here. Is that really the way your mind works. You think that the hatred of some narrow minded people is jutification for not supplying a particular medical service. That\'s a bit like justifying not introducing a smoking ban by saying that it will caused more people to stand outside pubs causing litter late at night. Oh I have some ideas. A comprehensive non-denominational sex-ed program as part of life-skills where you provide infomation and education free of religious overtones. Free contraceptives for all those over the legal age in full-time education. Information about adoption services and also as part of life -skills classes, a course on parenting with a practial emphasis so that young people would realise what very hard work it is to bring up a child. You say that claiming that the figures will go down is only nonscence. Not so - in Holland, they have some of the most liberal abortion laws in Europe and the least restrictive contraception access. They also have the lowest abortion rates in the WORLD. Think about it. Of course they also have a very grown-up attitude to sex and sex education. Free from the contraints of narrow-minded theocratical viewpoints. You think abortion figures for Ireland shouldn\'t be that high when women have to go to all the trouble to go abroad. Does that not show you how very desperate they are. Perhaps some of them are panicked into a decision. If they knew that could access the same servie here up to 12 weeks, then they would have more time to think about it, seek counselling and perhaps come to a different (but nontheless right for them) decision.

Anonymous - 05/09/2005 10:12

Anon 22:25, if some go as far as having an imaginary grave in their garden, then this is a sign thatthey need help. Non denominational cousellign could help them to put it behind them. Havign aid that, there are also many many women who do put the whole experience behind them very successfully and move on with their lives.

Anonymous - 05/09/2005 10:21

Anon 9:44 Why can't a brand new educational system be brought in first like as you say? Legal definitions make no difference to a lot of people out there. Abortion is seen for what it is and nothing else. These people wouldn't be narrow minded either. They are trying to save the unborn child which is tantamount in their lives. The smoking ban has already created a lot of hatred amongst its people as well even though you may not think so. It is not working as good as many people may believe it to be so. Whole groups of people have split because of it. Holland may be lower in their abortion rates but America have soared. We seem to be taking the path of America in a lot of issues.

Anonymous - 05/09/2005 11:06

Perhaps a brand new educational system can't be brought in - becuase there are far too many vested interests from relgious organisations, among others. Believe it or not, parish priests, with no educational qualifications whatsoever, still sit on school boards of management!! This is wrong for a start and needs to change. Actually, legal definitions make a huge difference and that it part of the (probably ongoing) battle you will need to fight. Abortion is seen, by many, for what it is - which legally is not murder. The very fact that you have redefined a foetus as an unborn child (one cannot be a child unless one is born, in the first place) indicates that you are of a certain mindset. Yes the smoking ban has already created a lot of hatred. But this was created by people - not by either smoking or the ban. Yes, American levels have soared. Texas in particular has the highest rate of teen pregnancies and one of the highest rates of abortion. It was Texas also who piloted the Abstinance only sex-'ed' program. This is no co-incidence. It would seem that we can learn even from their mistakes.

Anonymous - 05/09/2005 15:12

Anon 11:06 I can never see this certain mindset changing in people simply because we do not see ourselves as having more of a right to live on this planet as the unborn child. Legal definition or not I could never see abortion as anything else. It is people that always create hatred. The very act of abortion has created hatred and is quite understandable. The people that carry out abortion will always be hated and in my view it is rightly so. What would women do if abortion was suddenly vanished from the face of the earth? They would have to get on and get over their pregnancies wouldn't they? That is what is being said where the smoking issue is concerned. Imagine a world without cigarettes. Well, I would say the same thing about abortion. Imagine a world where every child was a wanted child and that abortion was a thing of the past.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 05/09/2005 15:45

Anonymous Posted: 05/09/2005 15:12 There are and always have been natural abortificants available for use. There are at least 10 plants growing in Ireland which would be natural abotifacients. If you ban abortion, then people will go back to those days of backstreet abortions and the dangers inherent in them. The safety of the women who do not want to be pregnant is protected by law. Incidentally, advocating and inciting hatred is not.

Anonymous - 05/09/2005 15:51

Banning abortion would not automatically make every child a wanted child. That's like saying bannning smoking would make everyone non-smokers. Did banning alcohol during the US prohibition era create a nation of non-drinkers? No, it created bootleg liquor, gin-joints, a nation of alcoholics and a mafia that exists today. The notion is laughable. The people that carry out abortion are people, its the likes of you saying that it's right that they are hated is what spurns and fuels hatred. What would women do if abortion was suddenly vanished from the face of the earth? What they always did and still do in many countries - go to back street abortionists or in some countries, perhaps turn to infanticide. As for "get on and get over it". Isn't that a favourite little dismissive cliche for some.

Anonymous - 05/09/2005 18:14

Anon 15:51 But anon I see hatred from abortionists against the child. Isn't it only right that these people get a taste of their own medicine. I don't like this hatred anymore than you do but when I see it against something so helpless then I just can't help myself. I feel the same outrage as when a little child is raped and battered. Why pick on someone so small? Can you honestly see Ireland turning into a country that would turn to infanticide? If Ireland is at the moment anti-abortion then this means that Ireland cares about the child. They need not go to back street abortions if we had a really good system here to help them out. This system seems to be really lacking at the moment and it would be in everybody's interest to get it right once and for all. "Getting on and getting over it" could turn into "I'm glad that I went through it and that I found a better way."

Anonymous - 06/09/2005 10:40

Anon: 18.14 Doctors who perform abortions do not hate children. Most or maybe all of them are obs/gyn. Does my gynae, who provides comprehensive contraceptive care, hate pegnancy? Of course not - the notion is ludicrous. " A taste of their own medicine" - Is this the attitude with which you hope to foster an atmosphere of nurture and care?. If so - I wish you luck. I don't know whether Ireland would turn into a country that would turn to infanticide. There is no way of telling. You say that Ireland is at the moment anti-abortion - yet there are so many fighting for abortion rights for Irish women and so many Irish women and girls (7,000 per annum) going to the UK for abortions. before Irish women could access those services in the UK there were backstreet abortionists here who provided that service, but with inherent dangers. Indeed the case of the nurse mamie Cadden was a famous one here in the fifties. Oh I completely agree. We need comprehensive contraceptive education. An excellent back-up system where this fails. And a mechanism which provides girls and women with a means to access adoption if they so wish. But we also need to recognise that there will, regardless of all out efforts and wishes, be cases where women - for reasons of health, rape or incst, severe foetal abnormality or personal circumstances need or choose abortion. It is interesting that in Arentina, contraceptive cae, generally for social reasons, can be hard to access and abortion is banned except extreme cases (and as these are not defined particiualy well by law, they are almost impossible to establish) yet their abortion rate is one of the highest in world - along with the rate of infection and death as a result of induced abortion. In Holland contraceptive is unrestricted and free and abortion is highly accessible. Yes, they have the lowest abortion rate in the world. They also have a highly conpehensive sex education program.

Anonymous - 06/09/2005 23:22

Anon 10:40 How can you call an atmosphere that fosters abortion an atmosphere of care and nurture? I would call it an atmosphere of death and destruction! I cannot absorb your picture at all! I see a crisis pregnancy as a prison sentence and I know that you will agree with me on this one. Now bring what you are asking into the prison system as it stands at the moment. A new law is going to come in. We are going to do away with prison and bring in the death sentence instead. This is what you are asking of us in the issue of abortion. You are asking us to accept the death of a human being! Can you now understand how I feel? Figures of 7000 abortions in England are done deliberately to make it seem that a huge amount of people want it and it is so ironic that this figure was also used to bring in a smoking ban. I would never believe those figures. How are you able to know these figures anyway? Does that mean that every abortion is going through a certain channel? How do we know that names aren't made up, after all, when women go abroad they give a false name and a false adresse. These figures don't worry me at all. I would put them at most a third of these figures. Figure days are over in my view. They aren't taken as seriously as they used to anymore.

Anonymous - 07/09/2005 01:38

E- Anyone one that thinks Ireland will become flooded with abortion clinics if it was legalised here must not know Ireland ,I could still seee people traveling Ireland is so small no matter where are you will always meet someone that is someway connnected to you or where you live. Abortion is still taboo, but aside from that it is a very private decision you make that you live with all your life for some it is something that they know they did and have been able to move on and have there live but that does not mean that you ever forget it or what you had to go through at the time. I would dearly love to have a child now but due to an accident I had I would now not be able to cope with a child. Does my present situation make me wonder about my past choices of course it does, dose it make me wonder is now my payback of course it does .Would I change my decision No . For To do that my life would be in danger.

Anonymous - 07/09/2005 11:25

Anon 23.22: I never called an atmosphere that fosters abortion an atmosphere of care and nurture So you see a crisis pregnancy as a prison sentence. Tell me, hat "crime" to you see the pregnanat woman as commiting. The crime of being raped, the crime of being a victim of incest, the crime of being in very poor personal circumstances, the crime of having a health problem or prhaps the crime of having a psychological problem? Please enlighten me. But perhaps if you do see crisis pregnancy as being a prison sentence, do you not then see abortion alongside adoption as being a reprive for being wrongly incarcerated. You're comparisin with the death sentence does not hold p as abortion is very safe for women, especially early term abortions. Actually, statistically it's afer than actual childbirth in some countries. No, actually, those Figures are if anytrhign an underestimation as many women coming form Irland have giuvne false UK addresses or the addresses of friedns with whom they are staying in the UK. If you refuse to believe those figures. then you simply refuse to face reality. How can you argue against somethign when you refuse to face the reality of it.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 07/09/2005 12:32

Anonymous Posted: 06/09/2005 23:22,: With regards your conspiracy theory, the number 7000 comes from the correlation of people giving an address in Ireland, when presenting themselves at a clinic in the UK. http://www.ifpa.ie/abortion/iabst.html has the statistics available. This figure is considered to be a bare minimum as women will also give the address of the friend or relative with whom they are staying while in the UK. Recall it was only in 1992 that Ireland safeguarded the rights to travel and to information. In 1992, in reaction to the X case, voters chose to allow women the right to travel to obtain abortion services legally outside of Ireland. In 2002, the government once again tried to overturn the 1992 Travel and Information Referenda, using the Twenty-Fifth Amendment of the Constitution (Protection of Human Life in Pregnancy Bill) 2002. And yet again they were defeated. Democratically defeated! But did they enact legislation to allow for the referenda? No, they did not. Do they intend to? No, they do not. This is why this matter has ended up in front of the European Court for Human Rights. Because our democratically elected government is refusing to enact the democratic will of the people.

Anonymous - 07/09/2005 13:35

Anon 11:25 What atmosphere so were you talking about? This was the understanding that I took up from your post. I would see the prison as a woman being put in there but being innocent. The crime in a huge amount of abortions is committed by the man. When I was pregnant this is the way that I felt. I felt that I was in a prison and could not see a way out. I felt that I was being punished and the man got away scott free! If the woman chose adoption rather than abortion I would see it as a reprieve in her favor. There is a real chance that in the future and when circumstances would be much better that the possiblity would be there for her to be reunited with the child that she gave away. I may be waiting for a long time i.e 27 years but I will wait until the day I die if I have to. It may be hard but abortion gives a woman no hope of having this happen to her in this lifetime. As the years go on people realise this. They eventually have their own children but they never forget the child they left behind. That child is the lost sheep and the mother will keep searching to bring that child back home. But tell me this, what can the mother who has an abortion bring back home?

Anonymous - 07/09/2005 14:45

You refered to hatred directed towords obs/gyns who perform abortions as somehow justifiable as it meant they were getting " A taste of their own medicine". So I asked if this the attitude with which you hope to foster an atmosphere of nurture and care?. You say that the crime in a huge amount of abortions is committed by the man. Abortion is not 'commited' but carried out. Abortion is not a crime but a legal service in a jurisdiction within the EU. You speak of adoption as a "reprieve in her favor". A reprieve exists only for the guilty. I ask you again, what crime has she commited. A crises pregnaancy for whatever reason is not a crime. Adoption would hardly be a "reprieve" if the pregnancy was the "prison sentence". Afterall adoption requires that this "prison sentence" of pregnancy continue. I hope sinerely that you are re-united with the child you so gave away as a baby and that both of you get all the help and support you need to find one another and get to know and one another. And I meab that with the utmost sincerity. But women who have abortions do not want to be re-united with a baby. Then or ever. They want to put the whole episode behind them for ever. And many do exactly that. I think you miss my point entirely, a woman who has an abortion does not want in many many cases to bring back home anyone or anything?

Anonymous - 07/09/2005 22:43

Anon 14:45 You say that women who have abortions do not want to be re-united with their children then or ever! It is easily knowing that you have no children and that you never went through a crisis pregnancy. You make these women sound like robots, as if they have no feelings what-so-ever! This is one of your messages to encourage abortion into this country. "Hey, everyone come in here and have an abortion. I guarantee you that you won't regret anything and you won't be looking for any baby in the future. And there is no need to plant a tree (as some councellors recommend ) because there will be no need. You won't feel anything. Guaranteed! And when you see babies on the street just ignore them. There will be nothing you can do about it. And when you have children in the future don't be looking at them and wondering if your unborn would have looked like this because again, I promise you that you will just get on with your life and put it all behind you." For God's sake anon. Could you not do better than this. The post-abortion site says it all (although after this comment I can see an influx of comments giving different views)exactly what these women have experienced. How many more women are out there whom you will never know that are having problems because of abortion. You may be able to fool a lot of people into thinking that abortion is such a cool thing but I can see exactly what you are doing and I see death and destruction everywhere!

Anonymous - 07/09/2005 22:48

Anon, The doctor that performs an abortion is akin to a terrorist who drops a bomb over a family home and gets away with killing one person. However the whole family is destroyed because of it!

Anonymous - 08/09/2005 15:26

Anon 22.23 - What I had intended to say was that women many who have abortions do not want to be re-united with their children then or ever! And I stand by that How do you know that I have no children. How do you know that I have never had a crisis pregnancy? You don't. You know NOTHING about me, my lie, my background or my history. I never said abortion was "cool". It is a seriosu decision for a woman, just like the decisojn to bring a child into the world is serious. You clarly have no idea what I am doing so please dpon't petned that you have.

Anonymous - 08/09/2005 15:28

You compare an abs/gym who performs abortion as like a terrorist who bombs a house. The idea is ludicrous. The terrorist would always kill the entire family. Abortions do not kill while families - in fact many times the womans family is not aware of it and many times hey will even support the womans decision.

Anonymous - 08/09/2005 16:26

Anon 15:58 Oh yes they are aware of it! SOME of them know it directly and SOME of them know that something is wrong. It is literally impossible to act normal after an event like this and families aren't stupid! The terrorist could easily only kill one person - he has often got it wrong - either way he is killing the rest of the family psychologically! Anon 15:26 In your first post you said that many many women do not want to be reunited with their babies then or never. Now that is ludricious in my eyes because of the feelings that many many women have.

Anonymous - 09/09/2005 09:10

It may be ludicrous to you but many woman who have abortion do not have regrets.

Anonymous - 09/09/2005 18:35

That is because it is taken for granted that it's okey to kill now. A real step backwards for humanity.

Anonymous - 09/09/2005 22:05

I agree with the anon who said that an abortion affects the whole family. I think anyone who thinks otherwise is in a little land the call ignorance. How could it not affect the whole family. A potential, niece, granddaughter, sister brother etc.. I know in my heart if one of my sisters wanted or did have an abortion i would find it extremely hard to support them. Yes that might make me a monster, but i do not see any justification whatsoever in killing a child that i would be a potential aunt to. That child even before birth has such a profound effect on people its overwhelming. If abortion is introduced in ireland, it will cause more unnecessary abortions and i know this will. I am not a grown mother or over the age of 25, i am friends and deal and interact with the underage women all the time. I know what goes on in their head, they talk to me and their attitude is, ''if its available, sure we wont have to worry about anything anymore will we?''..not my words..THEIRS. Also by having abortion legalised dont you think people will start having a laid back attitude to preventing preganancy as they know that option is always there for them. I personally think it would be a tragedy if ireland decided to legalise it. It would be another big mistake the government make.

Anonymous - 12/09/2005 11:38

non 22.05 In many cases the family, do not even know of the abortion - precisely because of the attitude that you display. What about the jutification of rape, severe health problems or extremely adverse socio-economic conditions. Irish abortions are happening already - 7,000 of them every year in Britain. I too am friends with and with underage women on a regular basis and I know what goes on in their heads. It already IS available - in the UK. If there are 7,000 abortions anyway and countlss unexpected pregnaancies, people quite obviously already have attitude problems when it comes to preventing preganancy. As for legal abortion causing this problem - people ALREADY know that option is always there for them - in the UK. When is this country going to take responsibilty for it's problems and stop exprtign them? Holland has unrestrictive contracpeiton access - both in the proactical and attitudenal sense, comprehensive sex education and legal abortion. It has the lowest rate of abortion IN THE WORLD.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 12/09/2005 12:50

Abortion in the case of danger to the mother is ALREADY legal in Ireland, and has been since the X case. The fact that it has not been legislated for does not change the case that it is legal. According to that 1992 decision (the controversy involved a 14-year-old girl, known as X, who became pregnant as a result of rape), abortion is legally permissible in circumstances where a woman is suicidal as a result of a pregnancy.

Anonymous - 12/09/2005 15:23

It has not been legislated for so this in a practial sense does nothing for the woman.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 12/09/2005 18:07

Anonymous Posted: 12/09/2005 15:23, I agree, and it's a disgrace that a democratic referendum can be ignored by the government in that way. However, abortion is legal in Ireland, as a result of that ruling and the 1992 referendum. Odd how it didn't result in the projected "massive outbreak of abortion" in Ireland, isn't it? It sort of undermines the entire viewpoint of "legalization causing massive increases in abortion rates". Legalized abortion does not 'cause' abortion, any more than divorce 'causes' marriage breakdown or even, anymore than umbrellas 'cause' rain. But number of women reporting Irish addresses in the UK when having abortions has risen from 4,254 in 1992 to 6,217 in 2004. Exporting the issue allows Ireland's Government to do what it seems to be best at: Turning a blind eye.

Anonymous - 13/09/2005 10:35

Charlotte, I do see our point. Legalised abportion does not cause crisis pregnacis any more than umbrellas cause rain. My point was that whether it is legal or not makes no practical difference because it is jus as inaccessible now as it was prior to 1992, so it makes no actual real differnce to the lives of women in crisis pregnancies. There was, I beleive, a case last weekend where a woman wnet to Britain to have an abortion as medically advised due to severe foetal abnormaility and risk to herself. She feels, it was reported, that her constitutional rights were violated and so she should.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 13/09/2005 11:21

Anonymous Posted: 13/09/2005 10:35: Damn right, her rights were being ignored. But the politicians are refusing to legislate for this. They do not want to handle the situation and prefer to ignore it. They've repeatedly told us they have no intention of legislating for abortion. (Ivana Bacik:"Minister for State at the Department of Justice, Frank Fahey, appeared before a UN Committee on Discrimination against Women, and stated that this Government has no intention of changing the legal status on abortion.") So the country is democratic up to a point. That point seems to be where the government feels the people should do what they are told, as opposed to telling the government what to do. It's a bit like the Nice Treaty. "Now answer again, but this time, answer the way we want you to answer."

Anonymous - 13/09/2005 12:01

So, if that's what they said - then why the heck did they have the referendum at all, if they weren't prepared to act on the democratic will of the people? For fun? To waste time? To waste money?

Charlotte(cbreen) - 13/09/2005 13:11

Anonymous Posted: 13/09/2005 12:01: I can only assume, like the repeated Nice Treaty referendum, they intend to repeat the question until they get the answer they want. Post the X case, the 1992 referendum was on right to travel (to which Ireland voted Yes) the right to Information (to which Ireland voted Yes) and a rescinding of the X case judgement, making abortion in the case of threat of suicide illegal. They went so far as to try and implement a 12 year mandatory sentence for obtaining an abortion, AND TO PUT THAT MANDATORY SENTENCE INTO OUR CONSTITUITION! The only other crime with a constitutionally dictated sentence is treason! Ireland voted 'no' to the rescinding of the X case judgement. Despite this, the government (13 years on!) still refuses to legislate for the democratic decision. Perhaps they'll re-ask every 15 years or so until they get the answer they want. Recall, the morning-after pill is also potentially illegal under current conditions, as is the creation and destruction of embryos during IVF treatment. We need clarity and legislation for our reproductive rights. I suggest you start asking questions of the canvassers who arrive on your doorstep next election....

Anonymous - 13/09/2005 15:21

Charlotte, this is a danfgerous infrigement of my rights as a woman. The mornign aftr pill is not banned not is IVF. We as a nation do not want to go down this dangerous route.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 13/09/2005 15:59

Anonymous Posted: 13/09/2005 15:21 And that's exactly my point. Until the government legislates, there is always the possibility that current practice could change. It should be legislated to allow for that we are entitled to have control over when and with whom we reproduce. The morning after pill is a vital part of that right. However, legislation does not exist to protect our entitlement to it! and interpretation can vary on what is and is not post-coital contraception and what is an abortifacient. See:http://www.irishhealth.com/?level=4&id=3206 from 2001. Bloody awful isn't it?

Anonymous - 13/09/2005 23:17

I am absolutely delighted that there is no abortion in this country! Thanks be to God that we have a sensible governement and an even more sensible society. Killing great people. I mean who do they think they are. Are they looking for a medal or something. The sooner it is banned from the whole world the better. We haven't got time for weak people in our society anymore and those that carry it out should be locked up and the key thrown away!

Anonymous - 14/09/2005 10:15

Anon 23:17 You think there is no abortion in this country? There are 7,000 every year. Our "sensible" govt and "sensible" people just prefer to let another country take care of it. Tell me - are you looking for a medal? Abortion will never be beannd for the whole world. And those who think it is are just refusing to face the REAL WORLD. Just lookat countries where it is difficult for women to travel to obtain abortions You have abortion womand attempt to imnduce on themselves, leading to massive injuries, even death. Leavign their families, sometimes young baabies and toddlers behind. You have backstreet abortionist, whiuch also result in injury and death to woman In both instances it is the overcrowded hospitals who have to take care of these problems. Is that what you want or te woman of the world. Is that what you wnat for our over-crowrded hosptals and over-worked emergency care teams - the needless injury and death of others and babies and toddlers left motherless because that would by your reality if women had no recourse to abortion if and when they need it. "We haven't got time for weak people in our society anymore" - You have no time for the ill> The ellerly? the handicapped? What a harsh cruel world you like to inhabit.

Anonymous - 14/09/2005 18:22

You cannot talk about the ill, the elderly or the handicapped when you won't even allow these people to be born. Your outlook on life and abortion is a lot crueller and harsher than my one. The weak that I was talking about are those that haven't got the strength to give birth and try to take the easy way out of their situations. It ends up a lot harder though in the long run. My posts are quite easy to read but you just want to twist and turn them to suit yourself. You know exactly what I am saying. In this subject I am always referring to abortion only.

Anonymous - 14/09/2005 22:08

Charlotte (cbreen) You won't ever be able to get women's choices to her reproductive rights in this country! This government is taking all our rights off of us. Sure your child can't miss school now for 20 days and they are after you! They have gone into every account we have now for tax purposes! And sure the poor old smoker has been shoved outside the door! And you are looking for abortion! Dream on.

Anonymous - 15/09/2005 09:06

You have no time for "those that haven't got the strength to give birth" - Women with COPD, - Woman with eostrogen dependant cancer - woman traumatized by rape - young gilrs traumatised by incest - those with severe primary or secondary tokophobia - those with deep psychological trauma - young girls who have not yet developed the strength to withstand extreme social andeconomic pressure. * You have no time for all these people * What a harsh and cruel world you like a paint a picture of.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 15/09/2005 09:58

Anonymous Posted: 14/09/2005 22:08 There are 184 school days in a year (below International standards). Missing 20 means you are in school 164 days a year. That means kids spend more than 6 months hanging around doing nothing. So I truly don't believe that 164 school days a year is a hardship. If parents aren't responsible for ensuring their children get an education, then who's responsibility is it? I'm also of the opinion that if everyone paid their fair share of taxes, then the individual tax burden would be lower. However, the tax laws of this country are all drawn up in favour of the wealthy and of business interests. The fact that a company can pollute and damage our environment, and then, rather than clean up the mess, simply close the company and open the next week under a new name, and yet incur no penalty, is a farce. Stealth taxation is a disgrace in this country, but I do firmly believe in the need to pay a certain taxes to support social services. I don't believe in supporting people who don't want to work. And I'll admit, I gave up at the smoking ban. And I loved smoking! Absolutely loved it! It was dreadfully difficult but I managed to do it. And I've managed to stay off it. Much as I hate it, the ban will save more lives in Ireland than any other single change that has been made in the health services since inoculations! None of these issues are on the same level of 'basic human rights' that the right to abortion is under. None of these issues have been voted on (twice) in referenda and then had the voice of the people of Ireland ignored by government. None of these other issues enforce any conditions on a woman's body.

Anonymous - 15/09/2005 16:22

Charlotte, Why are you concerned about saving the lives of smokers but not concerned about the life of the unborn child? Is it only certain people that need to be saved in your world? Why can't everybody be saved?

Anonymous - 15/09/2005 16:35

Anon 22.02 - they have put the smmoker outside the door to protect health. A child cannot miss moe than 20 days of scool without invstigation - to protec the childs right to eduction. Accounts are examind for tax evason to protet the economy. Why then should the reproductive rights of woman not be protected?

Charlotte(cbreen) - 15/09/2005 16:35

Smokers are already alive and independent beings. A foetus is not. I may as well ask that with your concerns about the well-being of embryos, why you are not concerned about the discarded embryos of couple using IVF treatment to have a baby?

Anonymous - 15/09/2005 16:45

Smokers, tax and childrens eduation do not enforce conditions on a womans body.

Anonymous - 15/09/2005 22:28

A woman's reproductive rights are being protected through the access to contraception. Why isn't that enough? She can also practice safe methods without the use of contraception. I do of course have problems with using IVF treatment when discarded babies are concerned.To be quite honest I didn't realise that this was employed in IVF treatment! This is another dispicable act and should be stopped. A foetus is alive and will become independent. Abortion forces invasion on a woman's body and ends the life of another human being.

Anonymous - 16/09/2005 09:20

Anon 16.22 As you are so deeply concerned about childrens lives, do you also campaign for those children forced into military service, little children forced to work 16 hour days in sweatshops, children foced into prostitution, children brutally mutilated for the sake of tradition, children forced into arranged marriages at a tender young age, against their will. Do you campaing for all these existing born childrens rights? Yes, it would be great if every pregnancy was a wanted one where the birth was joyfully awaited. It would be so nice also if every illnes was curable and every relationship difficulty was resolved successfully. But that is not reality.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 16/09/2005 11:05

To Anonymous Posted: 15/09/2005 22:28 You claim a woman's reproductive rights are protected by contraception. In Ireland those on medical cards (i.e. those in financial need) have very little access to expensive contraception in this country. And there is still almost no real education on sexual matters (I mean, did you SEE Prime time the other night, on leaving cert students on two week holidays in Greece? The doctors who ended up doling out post-coital contraceptives and cleaning up the drunks were horrified at the lack of knowledge on sex, contraception and alcohol abuse that the 17 and 18 year old Irish students have.) Your point "A foetus is alive and will become independent. Abortion forces invasion on a woman's body and ends the life of another human being." indicates that you find the idea of invasion of a woman's body as not ideal, but you seem to refuse to accept that some people feel a crisis pregnancy is just that, an invasion of their bodies. The foetus cannot become independent without the mother. If the mother does not want to be pregnant, then the mother has the right to terminate the pregnancy.

Anonymous - 16/09/2005 11:19

Anon 9:20 A lot of what you said can be applied to women also and men for that matter. All the opposites are happening in the world as well. There is more things right with the world than wrong and a lot of what you talk about doesn't even exist in Ireland. Ireland then is safer in a lot of ways and each child has a better chance therefore Ireland is living more in reality than lots of other countries.

Anonymous - 16/09/2005 12:28

No - contraception does not constitute the full protection of a womans reproductoive rights. Safe methods without the use of contraception? Are you serious - the 'safe method' was used here for years and resulted in loads of pregnancies. There is NO safe period. According to W.H.O. ststs, natural methods of contraception are only 74% safe. Would you want to expose your body to "protection" which was only safe 3/4 of the time? Discarded babies? There are no discarded babis in IVF. There are non-implanted fertilized eggs which are not and at te time cannot be used for implantation. Why do you have a problem with science doing a job that for a particular coiuple nature cannot achieve at the time? Why is it despicable? Why should it be stopped? Afterall nature discards 8 of every 10 eggs natutrally fertilzed befpre they can become implanted and result in a pregnaancy and possible foetus. A foetus is non-viable before about 21 / 22 weeks and therefore dependant. Enforced childbirth forces an invasion on a woman's body and mind.

Anonymous - 16/09/2005 13:46

Charlotte (cbreen) I too saw the Prime Time programme and I think that it is an absolute and utter disgrace that young people are not educated properly in this area. It is also a disgrace that contraception is hard to get for people on medical cards. I wholeheartedly agree with contraception in all its forms and the tax payer could easily fund free contraception for everyone. Less crisis pregnancies would lead to less depression, less problems in relationships and more freedom for women in general. I would never agree with abortion though. If you end up in those circumstances then the best thing to do is have the child, put it up for adoption and move on. This I believe is the better way at this moment in time rather than killing the child. The first step so in combating abortion which is around too long and is a barbaric practice in my view (in keeping with past barbaric practices) is an essential educational programme.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 16/09/2005 16:55

Anonymous Posted: 16/09/2005 13:46 I definitely agree on the education front, but while you may consider having the baby in a crisis situation as the better option, not everyone does. Until we have a method of contraception with is 100% effective, then I truly believe that abortion must continue to be an available option for those who do not want to be pregnant and do not want to have a child (either to give up for adoption or to raise themselves). I do not feel I'm in a position to tell any other woman that she must continue with an unwelcome pregnancy. It is her right to have a choice. And I consider that right of the existing human to outweight the rights of the potential human. I would prefer that crisis pregnancies did not occur at all, but that's as unlikely to occur as universal peace!

Anonymous - 16/09/2005 16:56

Anon 12:28 You said earlier on that it was discarded embryos that were used in IVF treatment now it's non-implanted fertilized eggs! Which is it then? Childbirth is a completely natural event for a woman and cannot be classed as an invasion.

Anonymous - 16/09/2005 22:49

Anon 16/09 Its ireland and the introduction of abortion we're talking about, most of those scenarios you mentioned are in countries far from here. Charlotte i have a medical card and i've never been refused contraception, the nurse explained all options , from injections, pills etc. I did have to pay for a smear test , though. Where did this info come from, prime time? cause i also have friends who are on medical cards and they have no problem obtaining any form of contraception and that includes an ocassion where one of them needed the morning after pill. As for all 17/18 year olds being complete naive to contraception, pregnancy and STD'S , a lot of them are well aware of the risks, with t.v ads, internet access, books etc, but just dont seem to care all, i think the level of self-respect has hit rock bottom. Its the way times have changed, the youth of today are risking a lot and taking light views on sex, e.g threesomes, 'slutting', oral sex with several fellas the same night, its gone mental, There is education there but in MY opinion drugs play a huge part in unprotected sex as one gets an instant rush and its sex there and then, and from what i've heard from a friend who just tried drugs once recently , she said it increases sexual excitement bigtime. And i don't think any amount of education at the moment will stop drugs.

Anonymous - 17/09/2005 00:47

Charlotte, I would consider a crisis pregnancy an invasion on my emotions much more than on my physical body. The fact that the man walked off and left me there is more of a concern to me than being pregnant. It is the boyfriend that has created the invasion and not the child. If the man was supportive I would have no problem going through the pregnancy. In fact I would welcome it. By aborting the baby I am not curing the original cause of the invasion, in fact I would be adding to it. There is now a further invasion on my emotions. Depending on how gentle I am as a human being will determine how much abortion will affect me. If I choose to put the child up for adoption I have still not solved the original invasion. Again depending on how gentle a human being I am will determine the effect of adoption on me. Knowing the child is alive though will definately help. Keeping the child will still not solve the original invasion either. This is probably ideal for the most gentlest of women who cannot bear the child apart from them. In example number 1 (abortion) the child dies and the woman is more than likely damaged psychologically. In example number 2 (adoption) both of them live but both of them could feel abandonment. In example number 3 (keeping the child) both live but could experience poverty. None of these are 100% perfect like you want your contraception to be. We can presume though that some form of contraception would be higher than 74% which would put it up to about 85-90% at this moment in time. Surely then if there was a real effort made in this area with those percentages at the moment abortion should drop dramatically. Why then are you not pushing for this area more rather than pushing for abortion? You appear to believe that this is the way to go and I would agree with you whole-heartedly here. So why not start?

Anonymous - 18/09/2005 01:22

Abortion is an apple cut in half. One side of it is eaten and the other side is thrown into the bin to rot. Adoption is an apple cut in half, one half is eaten and the other half is shared. Eating the whole apple is mother and child living together in harmony.

Anonymous - 19/09/2005 08:43

I never said that it was discarded embryos that were used in IVF treatment. The reality is that non-implanted fertilized eggs are discarded. Do you knwo the difference? Childbirth IS an invasion if it is enforced and against a womans will. can you tell the differnce? Sex for example is a completely natural event. Rape is not. Childbirth might feel natural to you. Is NOT natural to every woman. Certainly not a woman with severe health problems or if it is against her and the result of rape or incest.

Anonymous - 19/09/2005 10:28

Neoither abortion nor adoption can be compared to apples - cut in half or not. You comparison is so simplistic as to make no sense whatsoever, in my view.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 19/09/2005 12:13

To: Anonymous Posted: 16/09/2005 22:49 while filling a perscription at a family planning clinic, I say a 16-17 year old with a toddeler and a baby in a buggie come in to get her quota of contraception. She was handed 7 condoms. When she left, I commented to the lady manning the desk that surely it would be wise to hand out larger quantities than that, and she replied that that was the amount per person per month. More than that had to be paid for. To: Anonymous Posted: 17/09/2005 00:47 For my opinion on education with regards contraception, please see posts dating from the following dates: Charlotte (cbreen) Posted: 18/01/2002 16:05 Charlotte (cbreen) Posted: 19/11/2002 11:38 Charlotte (cbreen) Posted: 10/11/2004 16:40 and comtinuing down through the lsit for the past 3 years. By claiming 'It is the boyfriend that has created the invasion and not the child.' you are negating women's own responsibility for having a sexual relationship. It takes two to tango. Personally, I have more confidence and respect for women then that statement implies. Your argument that a 'gentle' woman will suffer, (whereas I'm assuming from your statement a less-gentle woman would not), plays on emotional weakness. It harks back to the days of Catholicism fooling this country into the idiocy of 'nice girls don't want sex'. When we were all supposed to model ourselves on a myth-like virginal figure. The numbers of girls who get pregnant or contract an STD because they didn't have condoms is truly terrifying. When asked why they didn't carry condoms, the answer was generally in or around the point that if you carry condoms, people will think that you wanted sex. Sex is as natural,(if not as strong) an urge for an adult human as is the need for food, drink and shelter. There is nothing wrong with sex between consenting adults. But the general warping which modern religions put on sexuality is, I truly believe, totally immoral. This includes the fear that is bred into young people and the genuinely warped belief-systems our parents and grandparents picked up. From the belief that (and I'm quoting for a relative, 70 year old male, with a decent education) "when women go out dressed lewdly like that, men can't be expected to control themselves", to the attitudes of judges in years passed, whereby women who were assaulted and raped were punished because they dressed in a fashion that the judge considered improper, it is all blatantly wrong. In fundamental religions the world over comes the belief that women's sexuality is something that needs to be controlled. That female 'lewdness' will 'un-man' the world. That men cannot control themselves and the temptation that women represents. It is an insult both to men and women to expect so little of them. We underrate ourselves and we confuse our younger generation. It is a hang-up from a Victorian era belief in the 'gentility' of women; A denial of the fact that a woman too has sexual needs and urges; a pretence that equality exists when the general attitudes punish women who have children outside of a relationship. It's no surprise, given these attitudes that teenage women in Ireland, when in a crisis pregnancy, are not supported in their full rights, are 'encouraged' to have a child by the very fact that abortion rights are unfulfilled in Ireland and that people generally only want to adopt very small babies. (Not teenagers, not troubled children and not necessarily children in need) Then if these teenage women do keep their children, they are maintained in relative poverty, unable to return to work without losing the benefits which maintain them, not in a position to train without paying for childcare, which is well beyond their pockets....So we 'avoid' the 'sin' of abortion, but make bloody sure these young women are punished by ensuring that they have very little chance of escaping the poverty trap.

Anonymous - 19/09/2005 16:11

Charlotte (cbreen) You put up all your posts to others coming in on this site as if you are the only one that knows what they are talking about! You made a reference also to the man saying that it takes two to tango but no referance as to the replies to that one from others. You deliberately misinterpreted the gentle woman statement for your own purposes. We have all had to live with Victorian beliefs of which abortion is part of as well. Abortion is one of the highest of these Victorian beliefs going back further for centuries. Why are you then prepared to stay in a Victorian age? This is akin to withches being burned at the stake, women being stoned for having affairs, people getting their hands chopped off for stealing and being beheaded. Abortion is in this league and is a disgusting practice. We want to move forward and not stay in this type of evil-minded society! It is you then and anyone else who believes in the idea of abortion that is staying with past traditions.

Anonymous - 19/09/2005 16:24

Abortion - alas will always be with us. Yoy an do like the victorians did in relaiton to sex and pretend to ignore but that won't make it go away. - It predates the victoran era and the geogian era and the edwardian era. In fact, in the middle ages, the Catholic church permitted it to within 80 days into the pregnancy - as they belived that is whenthe 'soul enters the foetus' There was no scientific evidene behind this just as there is no scientific evidence being almost all of what the catholic church dictates. However, it remains hat they permitted abortion up to 11 and half weeks. Indeed there are reconrds of partial-birth abortions taking place, in older times, in order to save the mothers life where the clergyman baptized the child in-utereo, so to speak.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 19/09/2005 18:00

To: Anonymous Posted: 19/09/2005 16:11 "You put up all your posts to others coming in on this site as if you are the only one that knows what they are talking about!" Discussion :"consideration of a question in open and usually informal debate"(from:http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=discussion) This is a discussion board. I'm as entitled to reply as anyone else is... "You made a reference also to the man saying that it takes two to tango but no referance as to the replies to that one from others." I don't understand what you are referring to by:"but no referance as to the replies to that one from others." If you mean that I didn't comment on the intervening replies, perhaps you are not aware that there is a timelapse between submitting a post nad it's being published. I posted my reply prior to the following comments being visible on line. "You deliberately misinterpreted the gentle woman statement for your own purposes." The original statement was :"Depending on how gentle I am as a human being will determine how much abortion will affect me. (Anonymous Posted: 17/09/2005 00:47)" My interpretation of that statement was that the writer obviously was implying that the "ungentle" would not be hurt by abortion. In what way is this a deliberate misinterpretation? "We have all had to live with Victorian beliefs of which abortion is part of as well[...]We want to move forward and not stay in this type of evil-minded society! [...]It is you then and anyone else who believes in the idea of abortion that is staying with past traditions" I believe in education, I believe in contraception. I believe in having children because you want to have children. I believe that individuals should reproduce when and how they wish to. Abortion was not a Victorian invention. It has existed since our pre-history. There have always been methods of controlling procreation. This relatively new system of having as many children as you CAN, rather that as many children as you CAN RAISE, seems to have the backing of the churches. The attitude of punishing women for being pregnant out of wedlock or outside of a relationship is a Victorian one. You seem to envision a world where every child will be cherished. Reality suggests we are so far from that, that it terrifies me. My belief is that we should concentrate on the children who are currently in the world, and try and improve their situations. Every three seconds, a child dies of extreme poverty! Every 3 seconds! Lets try and sort that out before we add to the number of impoverished children on the planet. SNIP The reasons for change could not be more simple at stake is one preventable child death every three seconds, 20 each minute, 1,200 an hour; 29,000 a day. Day after day. Action is vital… Because nearly 11million children die every year from preventable diseases Because more than 100 million children are unable to go to school Because there are fifteen million children orphaned by AIDS around the world Because one billion children are living in poverty around the globe Because we can't accept this any longer Because it doesn't have to be like this. END SNIP from: http://www.unicef.org/media/media_27557.html

Anonymous - 19/09/2005 19:00

Charlotte, just as a matter of interest what exactly is your view on the mans part in all of this cause i agree with the poster who said she has a problem with the man walking off and leaving the girl. By walking out the man is adding to the number of abortions and showing very little respect to woman and the child.

Anonymous - 19/09/2005 19:35

Anon 16:24 If the Catholic Church as you say permitted abortion that far back then how did they change their minds? They obviously felt that this was not right for society as I do today. This then was a step forward in the Catholic Church and not a step backwards. They were looking then to get rid of abortion just like each of us on this site would prefer if it didn't happen. Why then are you looking to go back to old ways? Remember we are not disputing the saving of a mothers life when it is in real danger. We are disputing all the other unnecessary abortions more than anything else. No human being should ever be denied this access no matter what. The Choice of the child is to come here and to be part of our society whether it is a good one or a bad one. Maybe this is what the Catholic Church recognised at that time when it stopped abortion because it had moved out of ignorance in this area.

Anonymous - 20/09/2005 10:12

Cbreen - if I may add to your posting BECAUSE, every year 30,000 children die as a result of mutilation for the sake of tradition BECAUSE every year children as young as nine are forced to bear arms. BECAUSE every year thousands of children are forced into marriage. BECAUSE every year thousands of children, some as young as 6 are forced to work in sweatshops for as much as 16 hours a day. You speak of unneccessary abortions. Unneccessary for whom? Clearly not unneccessary for the woman who had them or they would not have done so at the time.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 20/09/2005 11:01

Anonymous Posted: 19/09/2005 19:00 I believe a man who does not make it clear he does not want to have children, by using protection and doing his best to ensure he does not have children, is equally responsible for the pregnancy. I believe that we have to deal with the world we live in rather than the world as we wish it to be. Given the number of times it happens that the potential father walks away, and given the fact that the potential mother is left with the reality, I think it makes more sense to deal with that situation. By walking away, the man shows remarkably little respect for himself as a man either. Anonymous Posted: 19/09/2005 19:35, So much for the concept papal infallibility, although that's a much newer invention, isn't it? 1870, at the first Vatican Council I believe. Truly, with the church refusing to support the use of condoms in countries where HIV is infecting huge numbers of children before birth, and in refusing to condone contraception for the faithful in countries of massive overcrowding and desparate poverty, I believe tha church is far more interested in increasing the number of the faithful rather than helping alleviate their suffering. I'd prefer less efforts on praying for slavation in the next life and a bit more attention on helping the faithful get through this one... Anonymous Posted: 20/09/2005 10:12 Patently, a woman has an abortion because it is necessary for her at that time.

Anonymous - 20/09/2005 11:44

Charlotte (cbreen) You seem to be very concerned about other countries. None of the problems you talk about are in Ireland except some poverty maybe but even that can be helped. Those countries have different problems than us and is usually down to bad governments or queer religion practices. What then has abortion got to do with all this, particularly here in Ireland? If all these problems in the other countries were eliminated I take it then that you would not see any need for abortion. Ireland is more or less in that higher category therefore there is no need what-so-ever for abortion. You did misinterpret my statement on gentleness. If I wanted to imply anything I would have used the word uncaring for those women that thought nothing of their abortions. People with large families will often tell you that there is a great bond in that family and that they are all very close. In this day and age (here in Ireland anyway) women know that they don't have to have big families and it is being increasingly accepted having children outside of marriage. You have no decent argument for abortion in Ireland as it stands in this moment in time because much of what you fear around the world is not here.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 20/09/2005 15:10

To:Anonymous Posted: 20/09/2005 11:44 Kindly take your head out of the sand. We live in a world community. The cheap clothing which comes to this country is enabled be work practices we would not countenency in this country, but are happy to ignore in other countries, so long as we can safely ignore it. Much like abortion! And with regards child poverty in Ireland, you patently live in an idylic country none of the rest of us are warew of....The details below are from http://www.endchildpoverty.ie/issues/facts.html -1 in 7 children in Ireland are living in consistent poverty today -An estimated 148,000 (14.6%) children in Ireland are living in consistent poverty today -An estimated 242,000 (23.9%) children in Ireland live in relative poverty -Ireland has one of the highest rates of poverty in 17 developed countries, second only to the United States. The 2004 United Nations Human Development Report, in measuring the extent of ‘human poverty’ in 17 industrialised countries took into account the probability of not surviving to age 60, long-term unemployment, lack of functional literacy skills and numbers falling below the income poverty line -Almost 24% of children living in poverty in 2001 experienced persistent poverty. This means that they were poor in 2001, and in at least two of the previous three years -Up to 1,000 children do not transfer from primary to secondary school -15% of young people leave school without a Leaving Certificate and 3% with no qualification at all -Almost 50,000 children are in housing need, according to the most recent assessment of need carried out by local authorities around the country in 2002. These children live in families that have very low incomes with almost 60% of these families existing on €10,000 per year or less. -Approximately 1,000 homeless children are living in Bed and Breakfast accommodation with their families. The most recent Government homelessness figures from 2002 tell us that 1,140 dependent children were homeless in the Dublin area, and the majority of these children under 12 years of age. -Approximately 3,000 Traveller children live on the roadside. 1 in 4 Travellers has no piped water or electricity -Perinatal mortality is three times higher in poorer families than in rich families

Anonymous - 20/09/2005 16:22

Who says any of the aborted children wouldn't end up under these categories? Poverty is something to be solved in a different way to abortion. Are you trying to prevent these children coming because of poverty? Each and everyone of us have met poverty at some stages of our lives. Poverty is not an excuse for abortion and wealth is not necessarily the greatest thing either. Wealth in this country could easily be spread more evenly but that is up to governments to solve or the wealthy individuals themselves. There is unfairness in every part of life. That's life anyway. Some of us have great talents while others appear to have none. This is another poverty area if you like. Jobs have unequal pay. Students in school are more intelligent than others. Some people are great drivers ect. All of these could be classed as a form of poverty even for wealthy people. We will always find problems in the world especially if we keep looking for them. The unborn child should be allowed to come into the world to add to or improve these problems. It will all be down to the view of the child after. None of us are perfect so why do we need to look on the unborn child as being imperfect when we are that way ourselves. Abortion is looking at the child in this imperfect way and how anyone can justify it does not make sense. Living to the age of 60 in a developed world in poverty is quite a good age considering under-developed worlds only reach 40. What about those people though that aren't even allowed to come into the world for one bare second!

Anonymous - 20/09/2005 17:50

16.22 Living to the age of 60 in a developed world in poverty is NOT quite a good age considering 75 is he AVERAGE for men and 78 for women

Charlotte(cbreen) - 20/09/2005 18:10

Anonymous Posted: 20/09/2005 16:22 I see no point in adding to an already huge problem. Perhaps you believe in miracles, but I believe in realistic solutions. Generally, those involve damage control (i.e. not letting the problem get any larger) and trying to reduce the potential of the problem (poverty) spreading. Then try to solve the problem. Then try and ensure such problems don't happen again. At the end of such a process, it is to be hoped that the children born are born as wanted children, as supported individuals and as people with a future. I believe your image of the world would mean greater poverty for a greater number for a greater period of time.

Anonymous - 21/09/2005 11:33

11:44 I thought it was you who were concerned about saving children? Are you somehow less concerned if these are existing children or if these are children from other, generally poorer countries? You speak of "queer relgious practises" and then ask what has abortion got to do with all this. Perhaps if it were for the aforementioned queer relgious practises in this country then abortion would not even be a question at all.

Anonymous - 21/09/2005 12:27

Charlotte, Problems are what drive us on as a society. Without problems there would be no progress. Poverty exists to make us all become unselfish. Helping these people is a hunger that drives some people to share their wealth with others. In this way the person helping is improving himself as well. If there were no problems we would all be still living in our caves back in the Stone Age because we would have been very happy with our lives. We ourselves are continually adding problems to the world in our actions and words, it's just that some of us don't like to admit it. There are other areas that want to refuse to progress and in my view abortion comes under that bracket. It is one of the oldest problems around on this planet at the moment and instead of looking to try and eliminate itself it wants in fact to increase. Therefore abortion is seriously adding to the problems in this world by not wanting to change itself and progress. It leaves some women feeling wretched afterwards adding even more problems to the world through their own view and to those whom they are in close contact with.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 21/09/2005 13:07

Anonymous Posted: 21/09/2005 12:27 Survival of the fittest and acquisition of available resources is what drove us out of our caves. The same drive makes the vast majority of humanity basically selfish. Those of us who exist today are here because of our ancestors' drive to survive. Civilization first started with the protection of the tribe, for the continuation of the tribe, because we, as individuals stand a better chance of survival as a member of a group. This is a drive that developed over 4.4 million years as the first hominids developed. While we have a social consciousness, it definitely is at war with our long developed protectionism. I admit, I find your argument to be without basis in fact or science.

Anonymous - 21/09/2005 15:09

12.27 - you see abportion as oldest problems around. Does that not tell yuo something. It has existed as long as people and for a reason. It is not going to go away. Would I be happy to ee abortion banned worldwide tomorrow - NO. Becasue it removes a basic service from women and creates more problems. Would I like to wake up in a world tomorrow where abortion was never neccessary. OH YES DEFINETELY. But that is not reality. Abortion cannot change and progress any more than we can totally prevent all rapes, all incestm, all pveryt, all pregnaancy related illnesses, all phobias and all social stigma.

Anonymous - 22/09/2005 03:38

Charlotte (cbreen) So what you are basically saying then is that the weakest should be eliminated. Only the strongest survive! Weird theory especially when you haven't picked out the strengths of your survival. Are you talking about physical strength specifically, mental strength or emotional strength. I forgot about spiritual strength. Who are these kind of fit people that you talk about and what kind of people are they personality wise? Was there a weakness or a strength in your ancestry line that makes you feel that the weakest i.e the unborn child should not be allowed to survive? Is this where your choice is coming from? Or was I the weaker or stronger, ancestry wise, in trying to bring the unborn child into the world?

Anonymous - 22/09/2005 03:51

Anon 15:09 What proof have you that abortion existed as long as people have? It may be around a long time but it may have only been introduced at some point of our history. It exists because it creates misery and human beings enjoy misery! The grossest films attract great crowds, sometimes the sicker it is the better. Some people are ironically at their happiest when they are miserable! They also like to feel that they are victims of society in order to gain the sympathy (or craving for love really) that they need. These people are not practising the qualities of the survival of the fittest in my view because if they were, they would strive to become stronger by carrying through with their pregnancies. The winner in a race does not give up half-ways, he uses every bit of strength he has in him in order to win that race.

Anonymous - 22/09/2005 10:49

3.51 Abortion has certainly existed as long as woman have had unwantd pregnaancies and that I am sure, is not a new phenomena. . It exists not because it creates misery - but becuasE there is a NEED for it. "human beings enjoy misery" This statement is devoid of sense. If humans enjoy misery, then why do we spend so much time and effort in he pursut of happiness. Abortion does not create misery. Having more children that you or your body can cope with certainlyu does create misery. For many abortion is a way out of misery. Those who are happy only when they are miserable realy need psycholgical help. Having another unwanted baby will not help them , if that's what you are suggesting. These people are definitely practising the qualities of the survival of the fittest - especially in the case where they will not survie the pregnancy. The winner in the race is at a huge disadvantage is she becomes seriously ill as she crosses he finishing line.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 22/09/2005 12:00

To: Anonymous Posted: 22/09/2005 03:38 No, Anonymous, I am not saying that the weakest should be eliminated. Your point, to which I replied, was: "Poverty exists to make us all become unselfish."(Posted: 21/09/2005 12:27 ) I believe that poverty is caused by lack of fair distribution of the available resources. "If there were no problems we would all be still living in our caves back in the Stone Age because we would have been very happy with our lives. " I believe a drive to survive drove us from our caves and helped us to derive a social order. At no stage in my reply did I say or imply that survival of the fittest means the destruction of the weak. In fact the social order derived from developing society meant that the lives of the weaker members were more likely to survive. Historically, from a tribal point of view, having more children than one could support would weaken the entire tribe. And the lives of living children and adults were considered to have prior claim on the tribal resources. It was vital to have enough children to strengthen the tribe's future, while not having too many and overburdening the natural resources of the area, or threatening the life of a mother and her existing children. If you chose not to have an abortion, you made the decision for you. Why do you deny others the right to make their own decisions? Or, having made your decision, do you feel that it has earned you a right to dictate to others what they should do? No-one is telling you to avail of these services. Why do you deny others the right to decide and the availability of these services?

Anonymous - 22/09/2005 22:30

Anon 10:49 If I was pursuing happiness I would certainly Not need to kill a human being. The two do not match at all what-so-ever! Bodies can cope with a lot of pregnancies and as it stands to-day we are not really talking about that area. You could say the exact same thing about food, that the body cannot cope with too little food or too much food. Abortion is misery for one of the parties involved therefore there is a need in society for misery. The woman that believes she is coming out of misery is forgetting about who she handed her misery onto. A lot of miserable people do not need psychological help because that is their personality anyway. They have a serious look on life and prefer to complain all the time. You only mentioned the woman who is seriously ill in the survival of the fittest. Once that woman crosses that finishing line she is a winner and always will be in her own mind and in the minds of others.

Anonymous - 23/09/2005 12:56

Perhaps YOUR body and YOUR mind and YOUR circumstances can cope with too many pregnancies but don't assume that every woman is like that. Actually, the body cannot cope with too little food or too much food. Too much and doseases resultign from obesity can ensure. Too little and diseases resulting from starvation ensue. For many woman abortion does not cause misery at all. I disagree, people with help can learn to be hapy with theemselves rahter than depending on others for happiness. I for example have a serious outlook on life but I'm quite happy 95% of the time. If that woman crosses that finishing line and dies a TOTALLY UNNESSECARY DEATH hours oor days later then she has one NOTHING. It is of no benefit to her or her surviving children.

Anonymous - 23/09/2005 15:32

Anon 12:56 I mentioned the body not coping with food in reference to your statement that a body cannot cope with too much pregnancies. The reason that some women do not feel misery afterwards is for the reason that I said. They have transferred their misery to the child so it is the child that carries the misery now rather than the woman. The child carries it in its death. I am not talking about the woman that dies from the pregnancy (a woman can just as easily die from an abortion and have done a lot in the past) I am talking about the many women who are fit and healthy and would have no problem finishing out a pregnancy biologically. I would emphasize again that any of us in the pursuit of happiness does not hurt another human being especially the whole destruction of it's being. Why then are you giving the impression that it is okey to hurt in the pursuit of happiness? Why are you denying me the right to show others a better way? Why also are you denying me the right to show others that the unborn child can be catered for,loved and belong in this world? If someone was about to abort you before you came on earth I would fight hard to allow you to enter the world so that you and I could have this debate today.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 23/09/2005 16:34

Anonymous Posted: 23/09/2005 15:32 The general issue is that we, those who believe in choice for the mother, would not force you to do what you do not want to do. You, those of you who believe the rights of the foetus outweight the rights of the mother, would willingly force others to do what they do not want to do. You say people are "denying me the right to show others that the unborn child can be catered for", and yet you are in a forum where you are free to speak your mind and to agree or disagree with others. However you would deny others their rights (to privacy, adequate healthcare and the right to procreate how and with whom and when they choose) without batting an eye. Interesting that your rights seem very important to you when it seems someone is trying to stand in the way of them...

Anonymous - 26/09/2005 09:04

15.32 - according to figures I have seen, statistically abortion is safer than childbirth so a woman is far less likely to die from abortion. Unless of course opressive laws and restritive attitudes force her to a back street abortionist - where, yes, infection is moe likely and if that is not then cared for, death is more likely. I am not denying you the right to show others that a child can be catered for,loved and belong in this world. Why do you deny me and every oman the right to access abortion if neccessary? I am not intolerant of your right to continue a crisis pregnancy. Why are you so intolerant of a womans right not to.

Anonymous - 26/09/2005 11:33

Charlotte (cbree) There are many women who are forced into abortion by their familes. They are speaking even on this site and you wonder then why I have a problem with choice. For many of these women they have no choice and have to arrange an abortion against their will. They have to discuss abortion with Someone and pretend that this is what they want. But it is obvious that these Someone's cannot discriminate who exactly wants an abortion. This is not choice at all! How many of these women are included in these figures going abroad as well as those women who have never discussed abortion with a family who would stand by them. Your choice then is including ONLY those women who have completely and utterly made up their minds that this is what they want no matter what. But do you know these women or do you only THINK that you know them. I am not only sticking up for the unborn child. I am sticking up for those women who are forced into abortion against their will. I'm sure that you wouldn't like this to happen either! So your choice isn't as simple as you make out by any means. It is a very complicated area and I have no doubt that for many of these women having their babies would be 100 times better than any abortion. You say that statistically abortion is safer than birth. None of us can know this because every woman is different in her make-up. The same risks are carried for women who are happily married and want a child. What I would particularly find horrifying is if a woman who is forced into abortion ends up dying because of it and yet the same woman could have lived by going ahead with her pregnancy. You are then left with not one death but two. A complete waste!

Anonymous - 26/09/2005 14:43

11.33 I too have a big problem with the fact that some women (and girls) are forced into abortion by their familes / community. I have as big a problem with tbis as I would with woman who genuinely wants an abortion being forced to continue a pregnancy. This is becuase I genuinely believe in FREE CHOICE for all women. Whether they be 54 or 14. That includes the choice to continue her pregnancy or not. Tell, those women who have completely and utterly made up their minds that this is what they want no matter what. Do YOU know these women or do you only THINK you do. I for one know many of them personally. Just as I know women who have had abortions for medical (and I include psychological here) and social/family reasons. I also believe that no woman should EVER EVER be forced into abortion against their will. - And there are tragic cases of this in China, even tho' the one-child policy has been relaxed now. I'm sure that you wouldn't like this to happen either! Just as I believe, equally strongly, that no-woman shuld EVER EVER be forced to continue a pregnancy and hav a baby against her will. And I know woman to whom this happened to many years ago. Both scenarios are horrific violatons of a womans' basic human right to bodily integrity Yes statistically abortion is medically safer than birth. We DO know this. Yes every woman is different. yes, a risk does not differ medically, if a woman changes her marital status or psychological outlook. Surely then, the same argument applis if a woman is focedto continue a pregnancy and both she and her baby or foetus dies as a result, wheras had she had an aborion she would have lived. What a complete waste.

Anonymous - 26/09/2005 22:59

Anon 26/9 14.43 I think it's an overstatement when you said 'i for one know many of them personally'. Jez how many of those 7000 do you know? Theres a lot of emphasis being put on the mother dying, abortion being safer, rape etc, The mother dying is extremely rare. There was a question asked back further for statistics as to how many abortions are as a result of extreme medical complications, rape and just not wanting the child but has not being answered yet, i wonder why! If it was then maybe it would put this discussion to another level.

Anonymous - 26/09/2005 23:11

Anon 26/9 14.43 Be realistic how many women in ireland have died as a result of pregnancy?? Please answer that and do not ignore it, you seem to know so much, enlighten us, give us a figure and not one from the stone age. Just because you think abortion is safer does'nt mean it is, you failed to mention the future fertility risks linked to abortion, where some women do contract an infection and may not be able to have kids in the future and that is medical facts too!

Anonymous - 27/09/2005 01:50

Anon 14:43 Then at least we both agree somewhat. I believe though that having an abortion carries a greater risk psychologically to the woman than a full-blown pregnancy. She doesn't have to deal with the fact that she killed her own child which is a huge part psychologically. Meeting people face-to-face and talking about abortion can make you put up this brave front depending on who you are talking to. Also women feel that when talking to one individual on a regular basis she cannot be seen to be in pain all the time. It is only when these women are alone by themselves, when life does'nt work out for them, when they have off days or weepy days before periods can anyone possibly see the real truth. I have often 'lied' in this way to people about putting my child up for adoption. "Oh, I was fine. I didn't mind putting the child up for adoption at all. I felt good about it and anyway someone else is having a happier life." But alone at night like this I would have cried for hours because deep down that is not the way I felt at all. I was desperately lonely and upset for years afterwards. So it is impossible to ever know the truth in any of these cases and if I feel like that I would imagine that it is worse for a woman having an abortion, because she would genuinely feel that she was some kind of a murderer. Everyone of us are only human in this life and we are all basically experiencing the same type of emotions. You then have to tread very carefully to see are you really able to see the whole picture where abortion is concerned. Somehow I don't think that you are.

Anonymous - 27/09/2005 10:14

22:59 The reason why we do not have statistics as to how many abortions are as a result of extreme medical complications, rape or psycologial problem is becuase tose figures are not available. To my knowledge such data has been gathered on irish woman traveling to Britain for abortions.

Anonymous - 27/09/2005 10:20

23:11 - I don't 'think' it is safer than childbirth. Statistically, it is medically safer than childbirth. Fewer women die of post abortion complications. This of couse refers to where woman have access to safe legal abortion rather than backstreet abortions.

Anonymous - 27/09/2005 10:31

01.50 Having an abortion may carry a greater risk psychologically to the woman than a full-blown pregnancy, depending on the woman. JHowever, for a woman with medical or psychological or even family problems, pregnaancy may carry a much greater psychological risk. For many wman, they are NOT dealing with the idea that they killed their own child becuase this is not how thy feel. I believe, that when a women really knows the person they are talking to (and this is why we must alays choose our confidants wisely) then they know they can be themselves no matter how they feel. I was talking with a woman recently who's just had her, very much anted and planned for, baby. I said to her that she must be delighted. She said no, she was exhausted, weepy, sore and so glad the whole ordeal as over - but she and I both knew it wasn't everyone she could say this to. Everyone expected her to be over the moon with her new baby, whom she loves so much. Given the hurt you felt, you really should have had someone to talk to about your feelings. Services should be there for ou and every other woman feeling like thius. You have a right to expect them. It is possible to know the truth in many of these cases, if you know the woman and she knows you well enough to know that she can confide in you no matter what. That you won't be judgemental or shocked. Not every woman having an abortion, genuinely feels that she was some kind of a murderer. And perhaps you are not seeing the whole picture either.

Anonymous - 27/09/2005 14:38

Anon 10:31 Yes, maybe I should have had someone to turn to at the time of that adoption. Maybe that is why I am on this site. Maybe I still haven't let go and maybe I never will. I suppose in one sense this pregnancy has felt like an abortion to me as well because something feels as if it has died inside of me. That is why I can understand the pain of maybe both if you like and more than anything in the world I wish that no woman could go through this. But I can see that you do genuinely feel the same way and I do understand what you are saying even though I might not agree with you to a certain point. I would prefer to keep the picture that every child is a wanted child and that no woman is afraid or put into such an awkward position than she should be. I do not feel as others do that a woman is to blame for abortions at all. I can understand fully the woman's position because I was there myself. The woman then in my view is just as important as the unborn child. I am not up for one more than the other. But I feel that areas in society could be radically changed first and foremost as well as education in contraception before any abortion is allowed into the country. At the moment though, no changes are happening properly to stop women being put in these awful circumstances.

Anonymous - 27/09/2005 14:59

14:38 - at last ou understand and see my point of view. I realise you don't agree with me. i don't expct everyone to. In fact I think it would be rather odd if we all had the same opinion on everything. It would be wonderful if every child was a wanted child and every pregnant woman out there was willing to continue her pregnancis but this is not reality. I agree absolutely atittudes in this country need a radical overhaul as do other areas of society and we need as well comprehensive education in contraception and life skills delivered without theocratic moral overtones and free of embarrassment.

Anonymous - 27/09/2005 16:49

Anon 14:59 I want to thank you most sincerely for this debate. You are a very good and decent person and it was great to see you stand up for what you believe in. This is the part that I admired most about you. You have opened my eyes to areas that I wasn't aware of and yes, I am not now as judgemental as I was. I too will be careful in the future of imposing my views on others but look at the circumstances behind each case with a more humanitarian outlook and maybe with more compassion. I realise now that some cases may be more difficult than others and that I cannot expect miracles in every case. I have no more really to argue about so I will only check in on this site now and again. I believe that this debate should be left permanently on this website so that others may realise that there is more to abortion than anyone of us realise. There is a lot of truth in this site and there are plenty of people out there who are not aware of it. Society is ignorant and I will be the first to admit it. I wish you well and every single woman that has had an abortion and those who have put their children up for adoption. I also hope that men will read this site and realise what they are doing to their women and to be ultra careful in the future. I believe that none of our women deserve this kind of treatment or any of those beautiful little girls that are growing up here in Ireland to-day. I would implore that everyone would take note of these precious little girls and to NEVER put that child through such an ordeal in the future. Thank you again anon and (Charlotte cbreen)

Anonymous - 27/09/2005 17:03

Anon 16:49 - and thank you. I believe we both (and hopefully many others) have learned a lot from this debate. And I sincerely wish you great good luck with regard to resolving your feelings regarding the adoption and hope that some day, should both wish, you can meet and get to know the child you so generously gave to make another couple happy.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 28/09/2005 11:12

To:Anonymous Posted: 26/09/2005 11:33 Pardon the delay in replying. I've been swamped with work. As I've said before, I'm pro-choice, and if someone is being forced into a decision, that too is removing their right to choose. I have every intention of continuing to request that the government legislate in the area of abortion, IVF and post-coital contraception, as they were mandated to do by the voters 12 years ago. First and foremost, whether you are pro- or anti-, please, the next time a canvasser turns up on your door-step, requesting support for their candidate, find out what they intend to do about sexual education and contraception availability as, from this discussion, it is clear that women and men need more advice and information on preventing crisis pregnancies, and in the event of crisis pregnancies, need all the support they can get, to make the decisions necessary for them.

Anonymous - 29/09/2005 22:14

It sounds to me as if anons last two posts dated 16;59 and 14;38 is even sadder than abortion. The tears just kept coming as i read them. Sure God love her...

Anonymous - 03/10/2005 15:45

I don't feel abortion should be legalised.The supporters who say it should need to take a long hard look at their own lives and actions.Abortion is not a 'choice'.It's an unfortunate deciaion some women are forced into if their lives are endangered duiring in pregnancy and or going through childbirth. It's not there to be abused by people use contraception on a recreational basis.If you're 'mature' enough to have sex then use protection.Any time you make a choice to have sex you are 'risking' pregnancy.

Anonymous - 03/10/2005 16:51

15.45 I tink you are confused. First you say that you don't feel abortion should be legalised. Then you say that it's an unfortunate decision some women are forced into if their lives are endangered duiring in pregnancy and or going through childbirth. So which is it? Remember to that contraception does not always work

Deirdre(ADV34797) - 04/10/2005 09:23

I'm far from confused.I feel that abortion should be a last resort. Used if the woman may be endangered going through pregnancy.If a woman can be endangered by pregnancy than that is a valid reason for abortion.But not if you made a conscious choice to have sex and can't be bothered to take the consequences.Adoption etc. are choices appropriate to these situations.I'm aware contraception isn't 100% and because of this I never had sex before I was in a stable relationship.At least I feel I wouldn't be alone in making a decision regarding our child.Not mine,but ours!And I assure you I wouldn't even contemplate abortion.It disgusts me

Anonymous - 04/10/2005 10:40

Deirdre - You wouldn't conemplate abortion but that is a decision for YOU. You cannot and do not have the right to make that decision for every woman in every crisis pregnancy situation.

Deirdre(ADV34797) - 04/10/2005 12:32

Yes.That's right,it is my decision.But you're being quite self righteous banging on yourself.Abortion is not a solution to the problem of unplanned or unwanted pregnancy.FULL STOP!People need to take responsible.If you choose to have sex then you must be aware each time that pregnancy is a possible outcome.It's not exactly rocket science!Abortion will be prone to abuse if legalised.People are less likely to look into other options.I'm not trying to punish anyone..Without legalised abortion I'm aware it makes a difficult situation even more difficult for people.But that's temporary.They will be forced to look at other options and I know they will not regret.They will be grateful they hadn't made such a premanent and scarring choice as abortion.However trapped you may feel doesn't give you the right to take a potential life.It's not just about you anymore, you have someone else to consider

Charlotte(cbreen) - 04/10/2005 16:09

To: Deirdre (ADV34797) Posted: 04/10/2005 12:32 SNIP They will be forced to look at other options and I know they will not regret it. END SNIP That's a big assumption on your part. what quantifiable evidence do you have for that statement? Perhaps you 'feel' they will not regret it. I know several woman who viewed the right to choice as a freedom. Yes, other options should be investigated, but the right to choose is every woman's right. Are you not glad you had the right to choose? And were you not happy you chose the way you chose? Why then do you deny that right to other women? Abortion can be an answer for unplanned or unwanted pregnancy. So can adoption or continuing with the pregnancy. The population voted to support the X case verdict and to allow for limited abortion in Ireland. Do you support the government's refusal to implement the will of the majority of this country?

Anonymous - 04/10/2005 16:09

If you read the previous posts - I am not the one being self-righteous. Far from it. Nor am I 'banging on' - whatever that's supposed to mean. Abortion IS a solution to the problem of unplanned or unwanted pregnancy. For SEVEN THOUSAND women every year. People do take reponsibility - Contraception does NOT always work. Health conditions DO change Circumstances DO change. Rape and incest DOES happen. That's not exactly rocket science! Abortion will be prone to abuse if legalised?? Nonsense. It is available in the North where 100 or so abortions are carried out every year for health reasons. This no abused. Without legalised abortion it makes a difficult situation even more difficult for people - who cannot for whatever reason, travle to the UK or another legal jurisdiction. Why do you thinbk woman in a crisis situation should be 'forced' into anything. Would you like to be forced into something? - Especially in a truamatic situation. Although woman are not forced to look at other options. They are instead forced to travel to the UK for abortion. You forget that many women don't feel that their decisoon to have abortion as scarrinf for them. So you feel then that the life ofn a mother is secondary to the potential life of a medically non-viable foetus.

Deirdre(ADV34797) - 05/10/2005 11:22

As I said if you had read my previous posts correctly..I am well aware that contraception is not 100% effective.What is your point??Like I said,if you make a decision to have sex you must realise the possible consequences.I cannot believe ytou think it's o.k. for a woman to decide to have an abortion just because..I have reiterated the point time and time again that if you choose to have sex you need to take responsibility for any possible outcome.People who are victims of rape or incest had no choice.I never included them in the equation.Where there was no consent to a sexual elationship then the woman/girl should decide what is best for her.The people I am speaking about are the ones who decide that the timing isn't right for a baby, work commitments, not knowing who the dad is cause they were too drunk to bother finding out..The women who are too busy caring what other poeple think of them to carry out the pregnancy and consider adoption etc.It's not about how people percieve you.Whether or not they can fathom how you could have your child adopted..It's about personal responsibility.I'm not overly concerned with the 'trauma' you seem to think it causes for people to take a half hour plane journey to London to have an abortion.If that's their choice then I'm sure it's worth it.After all, the problem of their own making is flushed down the toilet.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 05/10/2005 13:42

To Deirdre (ADV34797) Posted: 05/10/2005 11:22, So the right to choose only applies when you say women have a right to choose? That's not a right, that's granting permission. Either one has basic rights over one's choice to reproduce or one does not. If you agree that a woman has the right to choose when and where she reproduces (whether raped or not!) or that she does not. Where that belief brings you and how it results may not be to your liking, but the basic question is 'does a woman have the right to chose the conditions under which she has children?'. If you agree that she does, then that also includes the right, should she so chose, to abort. You don't have to like it. It's not a necessity that you like it. But denying a woman that choice means you deny her the right to reproduce as SHE sees fit not as YOU see fit for her.

Anonymous - 05/10/2005 14:38

Deirdre, as contraception is not 100% effective, my poinyt is that a backup must be in place for woman who find themselves in a crises situation. It is unconscionable to hand them their pills / diaphragm whatever and then desert them when these don't work as they should I think it's o.k. for a woman to decide to have an abortion because .. she finds herself in a crises pregnancy situation. These women do take responsibility for any possible outcome - by having the pregnancy terminated. Yes, woman who are victims of rape or incest should decide what is best for her. But why are these the only woman, in your mind, who have that right. Why do you seek to take that right away from other woman. Tel me have you never made a mistake, had busy work commitments or accidentally mis-timed anything? Ever? Clearly you have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER what it's like for young girls who would be under TREMENDOUS socula and personal not to mention family pressure on a constant basis if they continued their pregnancy. If yuou had even the slightest idea, then you wouldn't make the comments that you did. Woman who have had abortion have taken personal responsibility. So - you don't care about the trauma experienced by woman in a crisis pregnancy. Why then are you posting on this discusion at all if you diplay such a cold attitiude. I KNOW it causes truama for people in a crisis situation to worry themselves sick, wake up in the middle of the night with panic attacks and in one case contemplate suicide and then have to, in secret from their families and communities, make the big decision to organise the appointment, borrow the money, get the referral, arrange excuses, invent cover stories, have the consultation, arrangements for the procedure and arrange accomodation and flights. The problem is of TWO peoples making. And it is NOT flushed down the toilet. Perhaps that is another myth invented by the anti-choice brigade and naievely believed by some.

Deirdre(ADV34797) - 05/10/2005 15:36

Hmmm..You're over shooting my point.I also have the right to my opinion.And that my dear is all it is.I do not canvass tirelessly or wave banners telling people what to do with their lives or bodies.I feel that it is not the right thing to do for either the woman or the unborn child to have an abortion.And yes,many people share the opinion and I can be pretty sure we had a referendum on the very same issue.Rape or any sexual assault resulting in pregnancy is something personal to the victim and her family, if she wishes to include them.She has already been violated and should have the right to choose what to do next.You cannot compare her situation to someone who made a choice to have sex and cannot accept the consequences.If a woman does not want children then she should make every effort to protect herself.There are varied methods of contraception which can be used in conjunction with each other.Or..How about abstinance?!

Charlotte(cbreen) - 05/10/2005 17:01

Deirdre (ADV34797) Posted: 05/10/2005 15:36 We did indeed have a referendum on the issue. In fact we had 2 referenda on the subject. ====================================================== - 1992 (Nov) | The Travel and Information Referenda Two Referenda were passed, amending Article 40.3.3 to safeguard the rights to travel and to information. A third Referendum was defeated. It would have limited the effect of the X case, by restricting the test to cases where the risk to the pregnant woman's life was due to an illness or disorder, and not to a risk of suicide. Travel "Subsection 3 of this section [Article 40.3.3] shall not limit freedom to travel between the State and another state." Information "Subsection 3 of this section shall not limit freedom to obtain or make available, in the State, subject to conditions as may be laid down by law, information relating to services lawfully available in another state." Abortion "It shall be unlawful to terminate the life of an unborn unless such termination is necessary to save the life, as distinct from the health, of the mother where there is an illness or disorder of the mother giving rise to a real and substantial risk to her life, not being a risk of self-destruction." - 2002 The Twenty-Fifth Amendment of the Constitution (Protection of Human Life in Pregnancy Bill) 2002. On the 6th March this regressive bill was defeated. Turnout was 42.89% of which 49.58% voted yes while 50.42% voted no. The status quo continues. http://www.ifpa.ie/abortion/hist.html ====================================================== So while this country has voted to allow abortion on 2 occasions, the government has decided not to implement the democratic decision. And the population pretends that as long as it's not happening in this country, it's not happening at all. Yet another Irish solution to an Irish problem. Stick your head in the sand and let someone else deal with the issue. Posted: 05/10/2005 15:36 "You cannot compare her situation [that of a rape survivor] to someone who made a choice to have sex and cannot accept the consequences." You are of the opinion that when people have sex they should be prepared to face the realities of the situation. They are, in fact, doing so. You just don't like their answer to their reality. As is your choice. And we're back to that word again: "Choice".....

Anonymous - 06/10/2005 08:33

Deirdre You feel, it seems, that abortion is not the right thing to do for the woman depending on circumstances?? In rape or incest its acceptable to you but somehow if the circumstances change then it's not ok anymore, in your opinion?? Why is this? we had a referendum on the issue and the govt. still refuse to legislate for the democratic will of the people. Pregnancy is always something personal to the woman, regardless of how it occured. Many woman who have a crises pregnancy as a result of consensual sex, where conraceptive care has failed them, accept and deal with the consequences, by opting for abortion. Many women (and remember women do not get pregnant on their own - there are two people who should take responsibility) do make every effort to protect themselves. Contraceptives can and do fail. Touting abstinence, was unfortunately the method responsible for the highest rate of teen pregnancy in Texas. Abstinence was also promoted here in the 50's and didn't seem to work too well then either. Do you really mean to tell me that once a woman has her family complete whether it's 0 children or 10, then you would, (with a straight face) advise her to abstain from sex until after the menopause - until perhaps she is 54?!! Do you really mean to tell me that you think that is reasonable, honestly?

Anonymous - 07/10/2005 12:02

I'm afraid I couldn't face reading all of the messages posted here, it started to disintegrate into the sort of polarised hysteria I try to avoid. Charlotte (cbreen), thank you for your considered and thoughtful postings. I wish I had made contact with someone like you 13 years ago. I don't regret my decision to have an abortion, but I am saddened that the only place I have felt safe enough to discuss it has been on sites like these. It is a shame that many of the other women who have come to this site looking for a channel to express their grief -for we have all lost something, even if it is just our innocence - are then exposed to the sort of fundamentalist nastiness written in some of the postings here. I tried to attend counselling at the IFPC in Dublin back in the early 90s, only to be confronted by the manic bigots of Youth Defence.Those who profess to be followers of Christ should recall that forgiveness and love were the core of his message. Leave judgement to God. What you believe is for you to believe - we all have our own personal beliefs, equally valid and true.

Anonymous - 08/10/2005 23:16

just reading your posts deirdre, very well said.

karen(kazzap) - 15/10/2005 15:26

I haven't read all of the above postings but i'm not for OR against abortion.it's only fair that some people can have abortions, for example, rape victims etc but for ordinary people, then no...my friend had an abortion, the child would have been my 2nd cousin.she is a very promisciuos (i didn't spell that right!) person and she shouldn't have been allowed to have an abortion...to put it blatently, she was asking to get caught out sleeping with someone different every wkend, and even once slept with 2 different guys one night.she should have taken responsibility for her actions and not have looked for the easy way out.

Anonymous - 17/10/2005 11:01

Karen, abortion is NEVER the easy way out. But tell me, why should yuor friend not be accorded the same roights as a victim of rape of incest. Why should you stand as the moral judge of her behaviour. Sure - I don't thinki that behaviour is right either, but that does not give me the right to decide what medical procedures she should be "allowed" (surely we are all adults, not children in the primary school) to have access to.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 17/10/2005 17:02

karen (kazzap) Posted: 15/10/2005 15:26 One can either support the right to abortion, or not support the right to abortion, but putting conditions on it is a legislative decision. So imagine a situation. Your 'friend' is 'contraceptived' to the eyeballs and still gets pregnant, after sleeping with two men in one night. Is she still "asking to get caught out"? Do you really consider pregnancy to be a just 'punishment' because she doesn't have the same moral standing or sexual hang-ups (depending on viewpoint) as you? By the way, I googled 'friend' and the first definition was "a person you know well and regard with affection and trust".

karen(kazzap) - 20/10/2005 15:29

to anonymous 11.11 i think. i just think that if you dn't want to get pregnant, then you should take the necessary precautions, i'm not saying that this ex friend, may i add, took these precautions...she knew if she got caught out what she would do. she didn't take the necessary precautions and used abortion as her easy way out. i am not judging her, i know her, there is a difference....everyone is entitled to their own opinion, i'm just voicing mine like i am entitled to.

karen(kazzap) - 20/10/2005 15:33

charlotte, she wasn't using contraceptive....she did this regularly. and yes, i do think that sleeping with 2 different guys in one night without protection is a serious matter, seemingly, you don't. she didn't 'need' contraception because she knew the abortion option was there. as i said in my last post, everyone has an opinion and no one has the right to question that opinion whether it's thuoght to be right or wrong (the opinion). but if it was a matter of life or death, then i would say no to abortion. but in saying this, there should be some other option besides adoption for victims of rape etc...

karen(kazzap) - 20/10/2005 15:40

charlotte, i don't have any sexual hang ups as you so put it. everyone thinks differently, maybe you see it as ok to sleep with a couple of guys on a night out, buti certainly don't. i have some respect for myself.

Anonymous - 21/10/2005 04:04

I don't get the part where a promiscouis person could be accorded the same rights as a victim of rape!! Is this how abortion can get introduced more and more into countries? This is one of the most ridiculous statements that I have seen so far!!

Anonymous - 21/10/2005 10:01

4.04 - are you now implying that rights could be according according to a prsons behaviour not according to the fact that they are human beings?? Now THAT is ridiculous. You are implying that a person should be discriminated against on account of their behaviour. Would you apply that to all aspects of healthcare. For example, should non-smokers be accepted for lung treatment but smokers should not becuase they smoked. Or how about people who eat fatty food, should they not be given cholesterol treatment? How far you you like to take this ideology?

Anonymous - 21/10/2005 10:11

Karen Is she now our ex-friend because she was promiscuous, because she got pregnant or because she had an abortion? Also, OF COURSE we have a right to question your opinion. If any of my family or friends were of the opinion that women should not have rights to contraception, jobs, medical treatment or whatever - I would expect and DEMAND that these opinions be questioned by whoever had a problem with them. You are entitled to hold an opinion, as am I - that right does not extend to an expectation that the opinion will never be questioned. People question my opinion about a lot of things - politics, religion, international affairs, traffic management etc. When I can back up my opinion it is called reasoned debate.

karen(kazzap) - 21/10/2005 10:12

dear snonymous, i agree with you there, in case there is some confusion here, i did not say that a person who sleeps around should have the same rights or options as a rape victim. that was one of the postings above me.

Anonymous - 21/10/2005 10:17

So Karen, you also believe that a person who sleeps around should not have the same rights as a rape victim. Do you believe that rights should be accorded not by virtue of the fact that we are human being but simply according to how we behave? How many medical procedures do you think this should apply to? Do smokers not have a right to lung operations? Do lovers of high-fat food not have a right to heart operations Do sweet eaters not have a right to dental operations? Do car-drivers not have right to treatment following a car accident? How far would you like to extend this ideology?

Charlotte(cbreen) - 21/10/2005 14:10

The last few emails have centered around the concept that abortion can be used in cases where a person 'deserves' an abortion, as opposed to 'deserves' to be punished by remaining pregnant. This seems to me to come right back to the same issue again and again: the right of a woman to abortion. BASIC RIGHTS While you may disagree with how the right to abortion can be implemented, a "Right" is a "Power or privilege granted by an agreement or law." If you agree that a woman has the right to choose how and when she becomes pregnant, and that abortion can be a part of that right, then that's the end of the sentence. One does not get to say 'a person has a right to shelter' and then qualify it by saying 'so long as I agree with his or her politics/opinions/morals/dress-sense/smell/colour.' A right is a right and is supposed to be protected by law. My point is that this mystery friend, who has unusually broad sexual morals, has the right to have those morals. And if we state that the right to abortion exists for one person who is pregnant and does not want to be (i.e. a survivor of rape), then equally, despite the fact we may disagree with the sexual morals of some women, we do not have the right to rescind what we have accepted as a basic right (the right to choose when, where and with whom to have children), purely because we disagree with how that right is used. Whether I agree or disagree with the mores and morals of the woman in question is beside the point. I may consider her morals to be appalling and a sign of a lack of self-esteem on her part or to be an admirable leap towards self-enlightenment. It's totally beside the point. It's a situation where 'rights' don't change. Put it as bluntly as this following example: Everyone has the right to legal defence. Regardless of what they have done. That right is defended by law. So a person who is caught in the act of rape, while condemned from all levels of society, is not denied basic rights to legal defence and counsel. That's how rights work, folks. Once a decision has been made that a 'right' is there, we don't get to decide who 'gets' that right and who doesn't. WHEN IS A RIGHT A RIGHT? So if a woman has a right to abortion if pregnant by rape, then you have to decide why that right exists. Does it exist because she was forced? What if that force isn't recognised? Remember that in Ireland, the first trial for rape within marriage is still being appealed. Technically then, rape within marriage officially doesn't count as rape YET, while that case is under appeal, because we have no legal precedent, in that case. So up until recently, officially a married woman couldn't be raped (in a legal sense) by her husband. So would she then not be entitled to an abortion? Of course she would. So, abortion, as a right for a victim of force is ok. So, then, if a woman is not forced? If she willingly has sex, becomes pregnant accidentally (having used reliable contraceptives) and does not want to be pregnant? Does she have the right to abortion? Her intention in having protected sex was obviously not to become pregnant, as she was using contraceptives. So does she get a 'Yes' vote? What if the same woman was in a relationship, and becomes pregnant. Accidentally or otherwise. The boyfriend/husband/other skips out for whatever reason and she decides to abort. Is she allowed an abortion? Potentially? Yes/No? And then to the example of those who use abortion as a contraceptive. Lots of people view this group with a lot of trepidation and anger. Most figure that abortion should not be used this way. But if you deny THESE women the right to an abortion, you are denying the right to abortion, AS A RIGHT. You are handing it out as a reward to those who behave within a certain moral standard. We need to be aware of our own backgrounbd and beliefs when adjudicating when something is a right and when it is a privilege. One gets to adjudicate on privileges, not on rights. BASIS OF IRISH RESPONSES - Let's bring it out in the open to discuss. This on-going discussion has touched on the presumptions around our reactions, but never come out and stated them. Perhaps we can open up the discussion by being up-front and honest about this. I think it may well be very important to the discussion. Recall that we have been brought up in a Catholic country. It influences all of our opinions and responses, whether we ourselves are Catholic or not. And here's why. We were all either told, or it was implied to us that the unborn has a soul. That's our issue. We think that we understand the playing field. So we think, 'Yes, abortion is denying another soul a chance at life. And that is a huge step. And it should only be taken where there is the need to undo a great wrong. (i.e. assault/rape/incest)." But because our basic belief structure is Catholic, we tend to shy away from the perceived 'callousness' of using abortion as a contraceptive. And here's the truth. They still have no scientific proof of soul in any of us. They still are not 100% sure at what stage a foetus can feel. They figure it's in or around 12 weeks, when the brain stem connects to the spine. Hence the general limit of 3 months for a termination. Late term abortions tend to be carried out using a sedative on the foetus, which would indicate a belief among the medical profession that a foetus is capable of feeling (as opposed to autonomic responses) after 3 months. So the reality of what were dealing with is the ending of a potential life, because it is the right of the mother not to be pregnant unless she wants to be. [I say 'potential life' as there is still the danger of miscarriage/still birth/complications etc. A live child is not always going to be the results of forbidding abortion.] We must be open and aware of our background beliefs in influencing our reactions. If one believes that a foetus has a soul, that will drive you towards being restrictive in terms of where you would allow abortion.If one believes that a foetus is a bundle of cells, too small to be aware in any way, then you would not see an abortion as 'doing harm' to another. WHEN ARE WE CONSIDERED ALIVE? There have been huge differences in religions and societies and when they see the unborn as being a viable person. Here's a sub-sampling..And they've all changed over the years... In a 2004 case, "The European Court ruled that the six month old foetus was not a human being and therefore did not have a right to life under the European Convention on Human Rights." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3878135.stm Aristotle believed in delayed ensoulment. He believed that the human soul entered the body when the foetus was fully formed. In Roman law, abortion and infanticide were really not distinguished. An infant did not have legal status until the head of the family, the "pater familias", accepted it. Genesis 2:7 says that God formed humans from the dust of the ground, and that we became alive when He placed the breath of life into us. If this is to be taken literally for present-day persons, then we become alive when we take our first breath. CONCLUSION I'm not saying one way or another where the lines are. I'm asking that we be aware of our own prejudices when it comes to this highly emotive topic. Regardless of beliefs and background, I believe that if a right is established, then it must be protected, regardless of your agreement or disagreement as to where the lines of use are drawn. If any woman has the right to abort, because she does not want to continue a pregnancy, then all women have that right. How they apply that right is up to their conscience, not mine.

karen(kazzap) - 21/10/2005 17:04

dear anonymous, she is not my friend for a different reason, noting to do with her abortion. the reason i don't 'agree' with her abortion as she was very cold and callous about the whole thing before she even got pregnant. she knew it was there as a form of 'back up'. she knew if she got pregnant, she would have an abortion. i wouldn't have much of a problem with her having the abortion if she had taken precautions and had been responsible about the whole thing of sleeping around. she could have used contraceptives but didn't want to because she knew she could have an abortion if she wanted. the way it was is "sure, what does it matter if i get pregnant? i can hop ona boat and get a job done". i found that fairly appalling. charlotte, good message. indeed, every woman has a right to abortion, but personally, it's not for me. i feel for people who have had abortions because it must have been a very very frightening and hard thing to do and they will probably never forget it for the rest of their lives.

Mary - 21/10/2005 21:01

Charlotte (cbreen) I would like to give you my view on this particular subject. I would like to use the simple act of crocheting to convey my message. First of all I need some wool and a crochet hook. I have a plan. I want to make a blanket and I have a particular bed for it. I know how to make this blanket and so I set about making it. The person that knows how to make this blanket is the key to the blanket being made. This person also knows that this blanket is essential for a particular bed or if they choose they may find that it looks better on another bed. The person that is making the blanket has a specific purpose and place for the blanket and this is the whole reason for it's making. Now transfer that to the human being. Whoever made this human being made it specifically to be put into a certain area and to perform a special purpose. Whoever made this human being knows what it is doing and has a plan for this human. Look how disappointing it would be to the person who made this human being to (see another person that it had also made), to come along and destroy that person. That would be like a child coming along to my crochet blanket, unravelling it all, knotting all the wool and throwing the crochet hook away. How horrified I would be! I would have to get a new crochet hook, unravell all my wool and start from scratch all over again. That would be fine if I had the time and patience for it but other areas may need attention and so the bed is left without a blanket for a certain amount of time. This is the way that I see the unborn child. That child is timed perfectly to come here, fill a gap and perform an essential task in life. If that child isn't allowed to come then that gap is left unfilled for a longer period of time and I believe that this is why the world has problems overcoming.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 24/10/2005 10:48

Mary Posted: 21/10/2005 21:01 Your crochet example leads me to believe that you obviously have strongly held faith that there is a plan for each person. That a creator/controller has a design for each and every one of us. And you are entitled to that belief. You are entitled to have whatever views on abortion you choose to have, stemming from your beliefs. But as abortion has been voted on twice, and democratically given permission twice in this country (despite the government's appalling lack of action in the area...) you do not have the right to deny abortion as a service to any woman in Ireland. And unless/until there is some proof of a creator/controller, that faith/belief cannot be used to impose a religious set of beliefs on the wider community. I completely accept that you believe that someone/something created that person for a reason. Others will believe that person, (and each of us) came into being by a random shuffling of genetic cards of our parents. Neither belief adds to or takes away from the reality that a woman has the right to choose when, where and with whom she has children. The right to choose is what is important here.

karen(kazzap) - 24/10/2005 14:05

just a question Charlotte,would you have an abortion? just being nosey!

Charlotte(cbreen) - 24/10/2005 18:24

karen (kazzap) Posted: 24/10/2005 14:05 Understandable, under the conversational circumstances. In my early years I would have done, had the need arisen. But I'm pretty fanatical about contraception, and I've never even had a late period!. At the moment, I'd be happy to have a child. In future, or if health required it, I would consider it along with all other options, as circumstances dictate. Does that answer your question?

karen(kazzap) - 25/10/2005 14:19

yes, i am also fanatical about contraception. when i was younger as in a teenager, a late teen may i add) i always said i would have an abortion if i became pregnant. then one day, my period was late and i was convinced i was pregnant. i thought about abortion but it was only then i realised i couldn't go through with it. but if i had to terminate for my health, i would.but that is the only circumstance where i would abort.

sexythang - 25/10/2005 20:46

i had an abortion 4 weeks ago funny thing is i dnt feel anything and am wondering whether its okay apart from anger sometimes at the guy who made me pregnant because i did it alone and i din't even tell him or anyone its only me alone the thing is i had to do the abortion because it was the only best optin for me

sexythang - 25/10/2005 20:49

i was wondering does abortion make one loose weight ??

karen(kazzap) - 26/10/2005 14:38

why sexythang do you want to know this?

sexythang - 02/11/2005 21:44

karen i want to know because my pal told me that when you have hear an abrtion you loose weigt

kEllY - 03/11/2005 17:59

hey everyone i would just like to say that i feel abortions are totally wrong. but i dont want to get personally or anything, no affence to any girls/women out there that did have an abortion. i just feel like its wrong, and everyone would have a chance to live. i couldnt amagine being in somebodys shoes who gets pregnant at a young age.. but thats all i gotta say. xOXO byeee

Magdalene - 04/11/2005 00:27

Abortion is Wrong, period! If women and men controlled themselves and lived as they ought to...there would be very few abortions. Sadly, people nowadays are weak-willed and greedy, wanting to have their cake and eat it as well…Human beings adjust to all kinds of changes in their lives – why is pregnancy different? Pregnancy is a normal, natural event; so is raising children. I understand that some people feel unable to do this, but that is because there is some damage to them, perhaps personality disorder, which can cause very self-centred behaviour and attitudes, or some other dysfunction. (I am not speaking about people who are genuinely disabled emotionally or physically) That is a whole other area... Dysfunctionality can be helped/ addressed nowadays and some people can recover their natural abilities to carry and raise children, also there is a lot of support nowadays for women in crisis. The very odd occasions of rape or incest, still do not entitle a woman or man to throw away a baby like refuse. It is not the fault of the baby, but of the attacker, in that case. Surely the attacker should be punished – not the baby. But it is still the woman’s responsibility, before God ( as she is carrying the resulting baby,) to allow that human being to live. After reading through all the different posts here, my head is addled. People are in chaos. They don\'t know right from wrong, ‘nor do they want to know! “VENGEANCE IS MINE”, SAITH THE LORD, and HE will avenge the life of each and every helpless little baby destroyed by the selfishness and greed of humanity. More than half of the people on this forum seem totally wrapped up in themselves, their rights and the importance of their own lives – selfish, materialistic people who are against God. They have the anti-christ spirit, which permeates every aspect of life today. Every single person has a right to live.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 04/11/2005 00:39

sexythang: If someone loses considerable weight after a medical procedure, they should consult with their doctor. Always! However, if you are implying that one could use terminating a pregnancy as a weight-loss technique, then I think your inplication may well be the most callous, insensitive and generally inhumane comment I have come across in a long time. Please reassure the discussion list that the second interpretation is not the case... Or if in fact it is what you are implying, then I still recommend you see a doctor, for an explanation on eating disorders and self-image. Thank you. C

Charlotte(cbreen) - 04/11/2005 17:25

Magdalene Posted: 04/11/2005 00:27 Your religious beliefs are your entitlement. You do not have the right to force others to live as you want them to because of your beliefs. I would also like to point out that religious wars have killed more people on this planet than any political war. Millions of people are dying in SubSaharan Africa, due to the refusal of religions to support barrier methods of contraception. I believe your interpretation is a tad biased. You paint a tremendously vindictive and unforgiving picture of your concept of god....

Magdalene - 04/11/2005 18:44

Charlotte - firstly, I apologise if you have misunderstood my post -it seems to have been edited, and it does not make sense now. Please tell me 'where am I forcing others to live in a certain way? I am not here to disucss religion. Religion is man-made and has nothing whatsoever to do with God our Creator and HIS total authority over the lives of all those HE created, including you and all the babies cast aside in abortion. You say I paint a vindictive and unforgiving picture of God. Do you know God, Charlotte? Until you actually know HIM and HIS instructions to humankind (in the Bible), you are not in any position to discuss HIM. If you are one of those who have made a god to suit themselves - an idea of your own of what God is like (which is idolatory), then you need to take a look at the real living God. To those people who do wrong and turn to him humbly for forgiveness and trust in the blood of Christ to save them- to those, God is loving and forgiving, but to those who think they are above God and know more than him, or even dismiss him...the wrath of almighty God awaits all those. Interestingly, it is up to humanity to choose. Live for Christ (eternal life and forgiveness) or live for yourself. Choose life today Charlotte.Did you know that the expression "Choose life" actually comes from the Bible?! If only one person thinks about their position before God due to what I have written,and it stops them from killing their baby or causes them to seek God's forgiveness, that is all I want. Hopefully you will get to know God before you reply to me again!

Charlotte(cbreen) - 07/11/2005 15:27

Magdalene Posted: 04/11/2005 18:44 You say " I am not here to disucss religion" and then go on to de exactly that. My point is that your beliefs are a system of faith. The bible is a religious text written by people with all the biases that always involves. It is written and interpreted by the social and moral standards and biases of a particular place and time. Until you can prove the existence of god, and/or prove that the bible is actually the word of god, un interpreted by mankind, and all it's biases, then it has no more validity in law than the rules of the local football club. It does not change the basic rights of a woman in choosing when, where and with whom to procreate. Thank you for your kind regard for the safety of my soul. I do understand that you believe firmly in your faith. I claim the right to decide for myself. C

magdalene - 07/11/2005 22:04

Charlotte, I just want to make one correction to your post. The Bible is actually THE WORD OF GOD. God's own words to humanity. You can try to dismiss it anyway you like, (and humanity has tried to do this for thousands of years)but it will not be made of no consequence by you or anyone else. God Himself, will see to that. His Word has survived through the ages and will continue to survive. "Thou shalt not kill" still obtains today. God is the creator of all mankind and womankind including babies, and we act in God's place if we take their lives because it just suits us to do so...

Mala - 08/11/2005 10:29

Magdalene you say every single person has the right to life but you don't seem to concerned about the womnas right to her own life or do you belive that she has no rights once she gets pregnant regardless of the circumstances. Abortion may well be Wrong FOR YOU and you are absolutely entitled to that but that does not make it wrong for everyone, period! "If women and men controlled themselves and lived as they ought to" - tell me why do you consider yourself to be the one-woman lifestyle police? Sure pregnancy is a natural event - but so are hurricanes and tornadoes. I feel unable to do this not because there is any damage to me, or personality disorder or becuase I'm very self-centred or dysfunctional. But quite simply becuase I DO NOT CHOOSE TO DO SO. I do not wish to keep and care for a litter of puppies either? Do you believe I shpould be forced to do so? (Incidentally the latter is becuase I am away from home 14 hours a day and live near a very busy road) Not everyone has a natural ability to carry and raise children and to assume so is arrant nonsense. Just as not everyone has a natural ability to care for elderly people. - example. I love having my grandmother to stay, love lisytening to her stories and genuinely have great craic with her. My sister never wants to have her to stay with her for longer han a weekend and complain that gran drives her mad after a couple of days. My sister howevr lves children, works in a ctreche and would genuinely like to have a big family of her own. We all have different abilities and not everythign that feels natural to you or I is natural to everyone else. No the rape is not the fault of the foetus but why then do you wish for the woman to be punished by being forced to continue the poregnancy and give birth to the child of the rapist against her will. You seem to have very vengeful and angry God. I do not know a God like that not do I ever want to. My God is one of love and understanding, full of endless goodness and forgiveness.

Anonymous - 08/11/2005 10:38

Magdalene - you speak of God our Creator and HIS total authority over the lives of all those HE created? Tell me, why do you assume God is male? As for total authority - what of free will, surely uoi belive that God gave us all free will. What about the fotuses lost due to miscarriage (8 out of every 10 implanted foetuses miscarry)? Why did they all supposedly go to some mythical limbo in the 50's and 60's in this country? Tell me, do you know God? You seem to know God is male (why is this?) and know the that God is vengeful and full of wrath and anger. Remember that the bible is purely open to human interpretation and speculation. Some religion believe that the bible instructs them to abstain from blood transusions and let their babies die on that account? Do you believe that is right also becuase these supposed instructions come from God? Until you actually have proof of the existence of this vengreful angry God of yours then you are in NO position to discuss him.

Anonymous - 08/11/2005 10:42

Magdelene - what proof do you have that this God of your wrote or dictated the bible? As charlotte said - the bible is a religious text written by people with all the biases that always involves. Just like the Koran or the Talmud. Tell me, why do you imagine it have any more validity that either of those two religious texts?

Charlotte(cbreen) - 08/11/2005 12:42

magdalene Posted: 07/11/2005 22:04 "The Bible is actually THE WORD OF GOD. God's own words to humanity." As written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John...And all the other non-canonical texts, (http://wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studies/noncanon/gospels.htm) and the apocrypha and the interpretations of each of them http://wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studies/noncanon/. And their translations.....

Anonymous - 15/11/2005 23:40

Not only does the Bible say, "Thou shalt not kill, but Irish Law says it as well. You cannot go out and kill any human being, you cannot protect your property (if you shoot the intruder you will go to jail) and you cannot kill people by smoking. How in God's name can you possibly get away with murdering a helpless human being!

Anonymous - 16/11/2005 11:53

he bible is totally aside from Irish law, we no longer live in a theocratic state - thankfully. Abortion is not murder under Irish law becase the foetus has not reached the statre of personhood. Besides, it is in the UK that many Iirsh abortions are carried out and their las provide for it. Just as it is illegal to, for example, go with a prostitute under Irish law, but if one did so, for example in part of the Netherlands where it is legal, one could not be prosecuted for it on return to Ireland and Holland, like the UK, is not under the Irish constitution.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 16/11/2005 12:38

Anonymous Posted: 15/11/2005 23:40 When the bible was written, it was presumed that the man causes pregnancy in a woman, much as a farmer fertilizes and seeds a field. Life was considered to have started when the foetus 'quickened', or began to move independently in the womb. However, we now know today (through science, not faith) that both the egg cell is alive, as is the sperm. And technically, through cell research, any of these cells has the DNA requirement to become a human being. So at what point are you taking life? Are each of the cells, both egg and sperm sacred when separate? At what point does this combination of cells become human? As a zygote? When implanted (only one in four fertilized eggs will implant and thus avoid a spontaneous abortion.) In the first trimester, which is the most common time for miscarriage, which is also spontaneous abortion? Prior to or after the connection of the brain to the brain stem? Basically, you are taking on faith what you have been told by the church (whichever church that may be) and faith may be a wonderful thing, but it doesn't give you the right to dictate to others. I'm not suggesting you should have an abortion under any circumstances, but I fully believe that your faith has no right to deny any woman's right to choose. Your faith seems to be blinding you to the fact that Irish law also dictates that a decision made a referendum should be legislated for. Limited abortion has been accepted democratically by the people of Ireland on two occasions and yet, the government do nothing. Seems the law only applies under certain circumstances....

Julia - 09/12/2005 14:09

I agree with Charlotte, and I think that each individual is in a unique circumstance and must decide for themselves. If an abortion is done purely for inconvenience, then it is the individual who aborts that suffers eventually. I think most women feel for those who have to abort, and I know that for most women, it is the hardest decision they ever have to make, and they need and should have every support, especially after abortions.

mwangi(QMZ32705) - 02/01/2006 14:34

legalising arbortion would go a long way to save our women some trauma.however it should be done carefully to avoid abuse and addiction.

Naomi - 09/01/2006 09:51

I come from a good family and was always good in school and never gave my family any trouble and at 16 years old I discovered I was pregnant. Having just that previous summer been on O Connell street campaigning against abortion I found myself in a position where it was my first thought. The guilt and shame I felt were overwhelming and the thoughts of what it would do to my parents and my family was choking me. I did not want that baby and felt nothing but scared and decided I was going to travel to England alone and terrified at 16 years old it did not feel real to me and I felt nothing but fear , not for myself but for how other people would see me. In a weak moment I told my father I was pregnant and what he did changed my life he gave me a hug and told me that while I couldnt see it now it would be the best thing that ever happened to me. He was right and now I have a beautiful 7 year old daughter who is my reason to get up in the mornings. My point is that unless you have been in that position and felt the desparation and despair of an unwanted unplanned pregnancy you cannot judge those who decide to terminate, but on the flip side there are 2 things we need to do in Irish soceity first of all we need to educate our children. Although we should certainly encourage them to abstain we need to make contraception more available. It should not be taboo to approach a teacher/parent/doctor for information, the notion that if we make it available we are encouraging them to have sex is nonsense teenagers will have sex, what we can do for them is minimise the risks involved. Secondly we need to make it known that if an unwanted pregnancy does arise there are options and no matter what the circumstance there are things that you can do. I know that I will be doing everything in my power to encourage my daughter to abstain but she I will also make sure that she is not afraid to come to me if and when she decides to take that step and as a parent I will make sure that she is protected.

Charlotte(MBM29174) - 10/01/2006 02:17

Naomi, Your first child could have been a reason for getting up in the mornings as well you know.

Sile - 10/01/2006 09:47

Naomi, what you say makes sense. The unfortunate thing is that not every parent is like you.

Naomi - 10/01/2006 11:47

Charlotte my first child is my reason to get up in the mornings the point is I was lucky that someone stepped forward and gave me an option. I did not have an abortion. My point is that had someone not said to me "you can do this and we will support you" I would have done it and I would never have had the joy I have now. You dont seem to have understood my post

Charlotte(MBM29174) - 11/01/2006 12:50

Sorry, Naomi, I certainly did read your post wrongly.

Naomi - 12/01/2006 10:32

That’s ok Charlotte. I thank god every day that I didn’t have a termination but the reason I didn’t was because someone I cared about gave me another option when I really didn’t feel that I had one. In Ireland now in 2006 we are still not giving people options. I am talking only about single/unmarried women who choose to have abortions because my personal experience does not qualify me to talk about any other set of circumstances. Those very people who stand in judgement of women who have abortions are often the same people who stand in judgement of women who choose to HAVE their children, they turn up their noses at women who choose to raise their children alone or who choose to keep their children and continue their careers. The attitude is “We don’t want you to terminate your pregnancy but we don’t want you to raise your baby in a one parent household OR keep your child and go out to work because that simply is not your place as a mother” we are leaving women with fewer and fewer options. I could not now have an abortion and I would never encourage anyone I know to have one but I will not stand in judgement of any woman who chooses to because until we become more tolerant , accepting and accomodating we are leaving very few avenues open for her… I consider myself very lucky to have been surrounded by such supportive friends and family but unfortunately most women are not as lucky as I. If we continue to instill and ENFORCE the idea that you cannot have a child and a life and until we remove the physical barriers /stigma and prejudice attached to pregnancy outside marriage we will only see the numbers of irish women crossing the water each year Rise.

Anonymous - 12/01/2006 20:11

I had an abortion because the baby had Turners syndrome with severe heart problem s and kidney was no properly developed either. I had to go abroad for the operation and think that it should be legal here in Ireland. It\'s hard enough having an abortion and on top of that you have to travel. I hope they change the law.

Naomi - 13/01/2006 13:15

Anonymous I admire your courage in talking about your situation I dont know what I would do in your situation but I applaud you for talking about it I have said I would never have an abortion but thankfully I have neber had to make such a heart-rending decision. I am sure it was an extremely difficult thing for you to do and I hope that life rewards you in some other way for the heartship you have had to endure.

Mary - 16/01/2006 08:42

Anonymous - I think it is a disgrace and well as being haeartbreaking for you that you were forced to go abroad. Your situation was difficult enough without the added burden of travel as well.

Anonymous - 19/01/2006 10:30

A foetus is not a human being, that's why it is called a feotus. Without the support of the mother, it would not survive and is therefore incapable of self support and I would contend that it is not murdered or killed when aborted. The sooner the pro lifers get this out of their heads the better. Pro lifers blather on about protecting the unborn. Where is the protection for little children when they are exposed to the pictures that appear on pro lifer posters? This is what should be out lawed. We have a watershed for tv programes, where is the watershed for these people. Which is more humane - aborting a foetus or bringing an unwanted child into poverty/violence/substandard care? People have abortions for all kinds of reasons and quiote a few I would guess are not all selfish.

Blath - 23/01/2006 15:49

Ireland is the least child friendly country in Europe and it's extremely hypocritical to ban abortion in a country that by its unrealistic cost of living, rackrent mortgages, paltry maternity leave provision, lack of proper childcare and school places makes it very difficult to bring up a child. In the meantime we're happy to have table dancers in Parnell Street because it's good for tourism and the economy, we tolerate prostitution and turn a blind eye to trafficking of women to fuel the ever growing vice-trade. It's all very well to protect the unborn, but how about protecting the "born"?

M&M - 25/01/2006 16:36

Hello All I am a single mother of a 6 year old boy and I have to say that if I had aborted him I would only be a quarter of the person I am now. But I come from a very supportive & caring family who have helped me enormously over the past 6 years. I am very saddened that any girl/woman has to come to the decision that they have to have an abortion for whatever reason. I just wanted to say that I really feel for you all and don't mean this in a superior kind of way, but perhaps if one girl/woman could put off this decision and keep adoption in mind then maybe someone just might decide that yes they can keep their child. Good luck everyone. Take the best care.

Anonymous - 25/01/2006 20:41

i agree totally with blath ireland has to be one of the hardest place to raise children they make child facilitys impossible or really expensive.i had an abortion 15 years ago and i dont regret one minute of it that doesnt mean i dont think about it even after that many years i can remember it like it was yesterday thats why i cant understand these people that beleive its like we treat it so lightly and ireland has to stop pointing the finger i know im fed up paying high taxs because of so many unmarried mothers by the way i have 2 beutifull children now and i can give them what they need and wouldnt change them for the world but the time was right for ME....to have them.

Naomi - 26/01/2006 09:41

Anonymous, I appluad you in your comments and as in my previous posts I would like to point out that although I am glad I did not have an abortion I do not have a problem with other women choosing to do so However in relation to your comment to being sick of "paying tax for single mothers" I would like to point out to you that I am a single mother and I work very hard also. I do not receive any payment from the government other than my childrens allowance which I am sure you too receive. I worked the entire time I was in college and got a good job , I bought my own home and am still working five days a week while maintaining my child.While I have no problem with your decision to have had an abortion if your suggestion is that single mothers should have abortions simply because they are a burden to you in terms of tax you might do well to remember that you cannot tar everyone with the same brush. I also know people who ARE in recepit of single parent allowances and are (in my opinion) fully entitled to them, the vast majority of those people are in receipt of the payment because of relationships that broke down, had they thought at the time that they would be raising their children alone or be a "BURDEN" on you I am sure they would have reconsidered their decisions to continue their pregnancies but anyone of them will tell you that thankfully they did keep their children. Nobody wants to be in a situation where they have to live on welfare payments(at least nobody that I know) and your attitude towards those who do is a large part of the fuelling of the stereotype that people have about single mothers that causes people to judge me before they have laid eyes on me. God forbid some day you and your partner may be in need of government assistance should you be made redundant /widowed/injured but I assure you if you do as a single mother paying taxes I will not consider my payment of tax to cover your welfare entitlements to be a burden. You are very lucky to have found yourself in the position you did with support in raising your children with a partner, you are also very lucky that you have employment , you are also very lucky that you are able to work , do not look down at those not as lucky as you. Do not imply that because you chose a termination you are in some way superior to the woman who decided to keep her baby and who may well be in receipt of support from the government, in my opinion her decision was a much braver one and a much more difficult path.

Anonymous - 26/01/2006 12:40

i knew when i wrote about single mothers i would have someone defending them which is fair enough i dont put everyone in the same kettle of fish but in reality there are a lot of teenage girls out there getting pregnant by one night stands and some who arent sure who the father is they have had one or 2 sexual encounters so they bring these children into the world not having a clue or without any money but they dont worry because they know us the tax payer will fit the bill and the children they decide to bring into the world in realality will have a tougher time because they will have to do with what is trown at them.i applaud anyone who has children and can pay for them rather its single or married its not easy.i know i have a husband which to some may seem like im lucky no i dont thinkso i just waited a long time for the right person im a stay at home mum because that was my choice againn just like the abortion i had. i beleive if some of these kids having kids could see the bigger picture they might try and make a life for themselfs instead of trying to create one.it would be intreresting to see if people had a choice where there tax money goes would they give it to lone parents or something that ireland needs like cheaper child care cheaper houseing etc im not blaming lone parents for the state ireland is in about children but if they had to pay or there parents had to pay for them it would be a whole new kettle of fish.

Tina - 26/01/2006 13:48

Naomi, I feel you are trying to make yourself out to be superior because you feel your decision \"was a much braver one and a much more difficult path\". You have no notion how difficult that ladies decision may have been. In fact, her posting is honest and forthright and indeed gives lie to the theory that so many have that abortion damages ALL women, as she said, it was the right decision for her at the time and she has no regrets.

Anonymous - 26/01/2006 22:05

thanks for that tina it was a hard choice but only i could of made it and thats one reason i dont regret it cause if i had listened to anyone and still went ahead with it i truly think i would still be living in regret i had no one to blame but myself and as for the religion side of it the day the catholic church can stand infront of me and explain all the sins of preists with young children and still be able to condem what i did then maybe i would listen so anyone who ever considers having an abortion let your senses decide sometimes they are better than your heart in the long run.

Anonymous - 24/02/2006 05:45

Abortion is wrong in my opinion...Yes maybe ye feel there are no other choices etc..But thats NOT TRUE..there are always other options irrespecitve of how desperate your situation may seem....What about the rights of the unborn child?? I think the rising rate of abortions in ireland is indicative of how our society is changing....people are more self obsessed and selfish than ever! Everytime YOU engage in sexual intercourse with OR without the use of protection YOU should be aware of the potential consequences...ie pregnancy...If u don;t want to get pregnant then ABSTAIN Life was never meant to be easy..we are all faced with difficult problems and challenges throughout our life..some which may seem insurmountable but dealing with a problem via Elimination is wrong...An easy option in my opinion.. People should start facing up to their responsibilities..

Charlotte(cbreen) - 24/02/2006 10:43

Anonymous Posted: 24/02/2006 05:45 Sex is a normal part of life. Abstinence is not. While pregnancy is also a fundamental and natural part of life, the human population has practiced population control through abortion for millennia. You are entitled to make a decision for yourself, as is every woman and man. You have stated "Life was never meant to be easy", with the implication that life was 'meant' or planned by someone/something. However, for those of us who are not religious, that is a belief engrained by a religious system with an inherent interest in maintaining the status quo. By convincing people that all hardship is a 'punishment' meant to make them stronger, and ensuring them a 'better' existence on another plane of existence after death, these religions are ensuring that people put off trying to make the world a better place for us all, right now. Kindly remember that when this country was supposedly 'abstaining' prior to the introduction of contraception, women were scorned and incarcerated for being pregnant out of wedlock. Men could deny responsibility as and when they chose (frequently on the basis of 'well if she slept with me, who else has had her?'). Details are now coming out as to how little abstinence was actually going on, i.e. men with previous commitments (married, clergy etc) fathering children, families which 15+ children (my own grandmother was 1 of 11 children who survived out of 15). This is beside the high levels of death in childbirth and the sheer wear and tear on a woman who has to bare and rear that number of children. Prior to the control of the churches, women controlled how many children they had, in line with how many they could realistically raise. Too many pregnancies put the lives of existing children and their mother at risk. Recall also that abstinence was never really a possibility within a married woman's control, in a country which only this year prosecuted it first case of rape within marriage. The husband in question was under the illusion that he couldn't be prosecuted for raping his wife. Up until 1990, he would have been correct! Please see http://www.irishhealth.com/?level=4&id=8920 for relevant information. While I believe that education and contraception is the way to prevent abortion, I uphold any woman's right to choose when, where and with whom she reproduces.

Tina - 24/02/2006 11:01

If the pregnancy is likely to result in the death or serious illness of the woman - then she does NOT have any other options. Under the law, a foetus does not have the same rights entitlemenbt as a person. "If u don;t want to get pregnant then ABSTAIN". I have never heard anythign so laughabe in all my like. Aside form the fact that it impractial and unworkable it goes againstthe sexual nature of the human condition. Are you really sayign hat if a woman only wants 4 chiuldren she only has the right to have sex 4 times ever until the age of 55 or 60. And if a woman dos not want any children - she doesn't have the right to a fulflling sex life until she is sure she is past the menopause. You are also implying that becuase we as women carry the biological risk of pregnancy we are not entitled to rely on medication percribed and approved for it's intended use. Do you really ant to go back to an Ireland of the 1950's where every sexual ancounter was one overshadowed by fear of pregnancy. Where fear led to repression. Becuase that is not a society I WANT TO LIVE IN - EVER. Clearly you know very little about abortion in reaLity. The decision to abort is NEVER easy.

Emma(FKQ39043) - 24/02/2006 23:57

The point I was making is that when u engage in sexual intercourse..u must be aware that u can become pregnant and therefore should be prepared to live with the consequences should this happen and not quite simply choose to abort because the " time isn't right for you " or this baby will just be an inconvenience...I do totally understand that abortion may be the only option for some women if their own lives are at risk etc etc..but my only concern is that women are having them too freely nowadays.. and this is giving rise to a very irresponsible society...

Charlotte(cbreen) - 26/02/2006 13:05

Emma (FKQ39043) Posted: 24/02/2006 23:57 ...."but my only concern is that women are having them [abortions] too freely nowadays.. and this is giving rise to a very irresponsible society..." Emma, the above phrase seems to blame the irresponsible society of today on women who have abortions. I'm sure that is not what you meant to imply; Rather that this rise is a symptom of today's society, which you see as irresponsible. So before the recriminations fly, please get in there with a clarification. I would however say that the rise in reported abortions may indicate nothing other than pregnancies are being terminated in a safer manner now than they did previously. Given that "as many as 50 percent of all pregnancies may end in miscarriage, because many losses occur before a woman realizes she is pregnant", [Wilcox, A.J., et al. Incidence of Early Loss of Pregnancy. New England Journal of Medicine, volume 319, number 4, July 1988, pages 189-194] the numbers of abortions does not directly correlate with lost 'live births'. Which is to say that just because a woman chooses to have an abortion does not mean that she would necessarily have delivered a child, had she not chosen to abort. So as today's abortion statistics do not necessarily have a large impact on birth rates, and indeed, medical science can help women who have had difficulties conceiving to have multiple children now, thus evening out the birth rates somewhat, your point that availability of abortion is a sign or signal of (or even, if you accurately meant what you typed, to have given rise to) an irresponsible society confuses me. Is it more or less irresponsible to have children one cannot support? Is it more or less irresponsible to export the issue of abortion, and pretend we don't have a need for abortion? Is it more or less irresponsible to use millions in taxes to fund parents who have children they cannot/choose not to afford to raise, so as to avoid dealing with the issue of abortion? Is it more or less irresponsible to ignore a referendum issue twice voted on and accepted democratically in this country, so as to placate one group's religious beliefs? Ireland has changed from a situation where a woman who became pregnant out of wedlock was vilified and rejected by society, to a situation where this country has a huge tax burden to support those who choose to have lots of children they cannot afford to support. And yet, the vast majority of our schools, still controlled (although not funded) by the Catholic church, refuse to teach adequate contraception education. Parents are still preferring to turn a blind eye to the necessity for sex education AND SEXUAL RESPONSIBILITY. Perhaps you consider current reported abortion rates to be symbolic of this irresponsible society. I feel the same every time a see another pregnant 14 year old, who now has a terrifically difficult path ahead of her, just to escape the poverty trap. And all because instead of appropriate sexual education delivered and EXAMINED at school, she believed that 'you couldn't get pregnant standing up', or 'you couldn't get pregnant your first time', or that 'everyone else is doing it'. Provision of facts and education are the responsibility of a mature society. Until contraception is 100% effective, abortion is going to exist as a feature of population control. I believe we need to minimize the need for it, using education and contraception. Lack of access to education and to contraception is a sign of an irresponsible (and repressive) society. Abortion rates are a symptom of that, not a cause.

Anonymous - 28/02/2006 08:58

It would seem that our "irresponsible" society has reached a maximum. The number of abortions attributed to Ireland is still 7000. That is the number that was given for the last referendum on the topic and was the number given as far back as I can remember. Therefore, it would seem that Irish society is just as "irresponsible" as it was pre celtic tiger. Doesn't this go against most arguments made about Irish society since the celtiuc tiger began to roar? It does however prove one thing, numbers are not necessarily good thing to rely upon in making an argument.

Miryam - 28/02/2006 10:13

I don't really underatnd your point anonymous. I for one never remember the reported number being as high as 7,000 in the 80's and certainly not the 70's. Also I don't recall any argument about Ireland in the post celtic Tiger era surrounding "irresponsibility". Could you please clarify.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 28/02/2006 16:35

Anonymous Posted: 28/02/2006 08:58 and Miryam Posted: 28/02/2006 10:13: For the sake of clarify, the numbers reported are those collected by the IFPA (http://www.ifpa.ie/abortion/iabst.html) of women giving an Irish address while registering at a UK clinic for an abortion. There are probably hidden statistics, i.e. Irish women giving a friend or relative's address in the UK, and Irish women who are traveling to countries other than the UK for abortions. Remember statistics are only ever interpreted numbers. They can give an indication, but not a definitive answer.

Tom - 01/03/2006 11:31

Miriam, the last referendum on abortion was in the early 90's was it not? 7000 women travelling to the UK for abortions was the statistic given at the time. That figure is still the same today. Somebody on this discussion made the statement that irish society has become more irresponsible over the years and that person said it by reference to the number of women seeking abortion in the UK - their "irresponsible" acts of sexual promiscuity resulting in the need for an abortion I presume. My point merely is that we are not becoming mre irresponsible in this regard if the same number of women are going to the UK for an abortion as there was 15 years ago. Charlotte, even in the early 90's there may have been women going elsewhere than the UK for abortions and giving UK addresses to the clinics. Bottom line is, the numbers have not changed.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 01/03/2006 20:30

Tom Posted: 01/03/2006 11:31 (By the way, this is Charlotte(cbreen), as oppossed to the other person posting as Charlotte on this discussion. According to the IFPA, (http://www.ifpa.ie/news/index.php?mr=110) any drop in figure is " is most likely a result of the high costs of having the procedure there". More prople are reporting travelling to the EU, as airfares are low. The cost of a termination in the UK is €650 - €750, whereas the cost in the Netherlands is €250-€350 less than that.

Tom - 03/03/2006 10:31

Charlotte, lets not stray from the main point in this discussion which is the trauma caused by the perceived need to undergo such a procedure. THe numbers dont really matter one way or another. Women do not deliberately go out to get pregnant just to have an abortion which one could be forgiven for believeing when we listen to the pro life people. They make it sound like these women have true choices. In the real world most women who go for an abortion do not have a real choice, some do perhaps, but most dont. What the pro liufer would be better doing is trying to understand wjhy women go for abortions and try to support these poor women and girls through a very traumatic time rather than ridicule and torment them. In my book what these pro lifers do is more child abuse than enything else by subjecting my young children to the pictures they display on their placards. We have watersheds on television for such imagery, why cant this be extended to images on the streets?

Kludo - 21/05/2006 22:27

I had a "medical abortion" last November at a private clinic in the uk. I could not go through with a pregnancy at this time in my life for financial amongst other reasons. They gave me leaflets to read and told me that I would bleed a lot but it would feel like nothing more than a painful and heavy period. I had no idea how unprepared I was for this procedure. Had I chosen the surgical method it would have been over in five minutes. Instead, the pills they gave me caused me to have the most excruciating contractions, alongside severe vomiting and diarrheoa so bad I passed out on my bathroom floor. I bled for 8 weeks with massive blood clots and very worrying amounts of blood. I honestly thought I was heamorraging at one point. Once the bleeding stopped, I ended up with severe infection, pelvic inflammatory disease and now my ovaries are about to be removed because the method of abortion I chose caused me to have several growths i.e. abcesses and cysts on my ovaries and tubes. I spent a week in hospital on an antibiotic drip. I was hallucinating and delierious with fever reaching temperatures of 45 degrees. I found out recently that I could have actually died. I fully respect a woman's right to choose whether or not she have an abortion but I would recommend that if offered a "medical abortion" please, please consider this very, very carefully. These private clinics are only interested in taking your money from you, it's a business and they don't really have your personal welfare at heart. All women in Ireland and the U K should have access to safe, free abortions via their health service where they would be looked after properly and monitored afterwards to prevent infection etc. I fully appreciate that medical abortions work out quite well for some women, but not for all as the horror of having to literally see the foetus come out of you and down the toilet is more traumatic that making the actual decision itself.

Ger - 31/07/2006 15:10

I think people should not be so harsh in judging people who has abortions. i had an abortion at the age of 18. I would have been disowned if i had the baby.

TheSinEater - 10/08/2006 11:56

I had a medical abortion 9 years ago in Liverpool. I already had a child. I regret not being able to have + support the child but I couldn't have done it financially or mentally. I did not wish for another baby,contraception is not always reliable as we know. I never told my parents and I probably never will. I had counselling before + after the abortion and Looking back now I know I made the right decision. Absaloutly nobody has the right to judge another person based on the decisions they make, regardless of race or creed.....

Anonymous - 14/10/2006 15:10

Abortion is certainly not the easy option and should not be portrayed as such. I personally had an abortion over six years ago, and althought I wasn't forced into it, I was certainly pressured. I was pregnant at 16 and had the abortion at 17. I suffered for over 6 years with PASS, which some people do not recognise (but that is another discussion). It still hurts and I regret it too much. I know for certain, I would have coped better with having a baby at 17 than having PASS for 6 years from the age of 17.... nobody thinks of it that way, as the effects of abortion are still unkown and hiden.

Rocky - 02/11/2006 16:42

To me abortion is worse than murder! Abortion claims two victims. It destroys the mother and kills the unborn child. Regardless of individual religious beliefs or biblical interpretations every human being instinctively knows to kill is wrong. There is NO justification whatsoever for abortion. The people who advocate "pro choice" views and advice have a responsibility to the mothers of these aborted children for the trauma and suffering caused as a result of their retheroic! Shame on you!

Alice - 02/11/2006 16:55

Rocky, abortion does not destroy the woman in every case. In fact it is in a minority of cases that the woman suffers and ill effects above and beyond the surgery itself. There is no legal structure known as and 'unborn child', it is either a child and thus born or unborn and therefore a foetus. If every human being instinctively knows to kill is wrong, then it is a great wonder that we are not all all vegetarians. There may be NO justification whatsoever for abortion in your own mind and you are entitled to your viuew but you are NOT every women and shame on YOU for presuming to think for everyone else. The reasons for abortion are numberous and are the womans own. You do not have the right to decide for another woman.

Rocky - 04/11/2006 12:08

There is a vast difference between killing a beast for food and killing a human child, regardless of what stage of development it is at! Legal structures are man made and are extremely fallible. If it’s not a child then you’re not pregnant! Hiding behind legal barriers, or medical terminology doesn’t alter the fact! It is true that there are numerous reasons for abortions, just as there are numerous reasons for the committal other hideous crimes against humanity. Saddam had numerous reasons to slaughter the Kurds. The Hutus had a multitude of reasons to wage genocide against the Tutsis. Hitler had many reasons why he hated the Jews and sought their abolition. But reason, is not, nor will it ever be justification! Less than 1% of abortions are carried out because of rape, incest or because of the mothers health is at risk. Over 99% of the rest of the reasons can be put under the heading “convenience”. I do not presume to think or decide for any one else. I think and decide for myself. I believe if you witness an injustice, and walk idly by, you’re as guilty as the perpetrator! What greater injustice than the slaughter of the innocent?

Alice - 06/11/2006 09:08

It is not a child , it is a foetus - that is medical fact. Incidentally, humans do not need to kill animals for food in order to survive. Rocky, I doubt either Saddam, Hitletr or the Hutus had medical reasons so your comparison is ludicrous.

Rocky - 06/11/2006 16:55

Alice, zygote, blastocyte, embreo and finaly foetus are medical terms to describe the different stages of growth in the development of a child in the womb. Its just medical terminology! Thats fact! Your right though, Sadam, Hitler and the Hutus had no medical reasons for the horrific genocide they committed but the same is true in over 99% of abortion cases according to studies conducted in the UK!

Alice - 06/11/2006 17:14

Rocky, first you say there is no justificaiton in your mind, then you admit that medical reasons, rape and incest are valid reasons? Which is it and why do you presume to put limits on another persons accesss to a medical service which is legal in the EU?

Anonymous - 06/11/2006 19:29

Rocky and all you others who sit in judgement of anyone else, can you explain something to me please? How do you account for Mother Nature flushing children right down the toilet on many occasions? As you should all know, 25% of first time pregnancies end in miscarriage (called spontaneous abortion in medical terms). So for all you who talk about the spirit, soul aspect. After having a few miscarriages) where I flushed my baby, body and soul, down the toilet because that is the route Mother Nature took for my baby's body and soul. Should I now be riddled with guilt about that, even though it was totally outside my control? What is the difference between that scenario? The only difference in my mind is that I wanted my baby. BUT, if I was in a situation where I had no support and was not able to financially look after a baby, was raped or whatever, and had an abortion, then are you saying I should be guilty then? So if nature takes its course, I shouldn't feel guilty but I am active in the abortion in any way, I should feel guilty?? So, the deduction is that this is not a discussion about abortion but rather a discussion on the reasons for making other people (other than yourselves) FEEL guilty? Is that a positive way to conduct a debate, to shovel out guilt where ever you can? I suggest those of you that are anti abortion, should go look in your mirrors at yourselves and leave the judgemental bit to those of us that don't agree with you. We are all entirely responsible for our own 'souls' and to be honest, what I do or do not do in my life, has absolutely nothing to do with anyone else.

Rocky - 07/11/2006 12:18

Alice, there is no justification for abortion. As I said previously reasons are NOT justification. Please allow me to explain with this hypothetical example. Would I kill another person? No, absolutely not! Would I kill them if they threatened to kill a member of my family? Yes in an act! Decisions taken are different when there is a gun to your head and cannot be compared. If the life of the mother is at risk then it’s a loose, loose situation but a decision has to be made! I would always choose the life of the mother for numerous reasons but does this justify abortion? No absolutely not! But it’s the lesser of two evils, may be! Anonymous, it was never my intention to make anyone feel guilty. Guilt helps no cause! I think it’s a shame and a disgrace that abortions are carried out in the EU on a whim. I also believe that so called “pro choice” lobbyists and a lack of respect for human life carry a large proportion of the blame for this. People in a crisis situation react differently than they would under normal circumstances. Panic and fear can lead to rash decisions that can end up leaving that person mentally and/or physically scared for life. People who find themselves in these situations need help. If people actually knew what happens during an actual abortion, the medical, biological and psychological facts and the terrible trauma endured during and after the event they may reconsider their original decision! What you do in your life has absolutely nothing to do with anyone else, true, provided nobody else is affected by your actions! The same goes for all of us!

Alice - 07/11/2006 14:43

Rocky, you call saving the life of a mother no justification and the lesser of two evils? To even imagine that saving someone's life could be evil in your imagination, is sickening, it really is. The vast majority of abortions Rocky, are carried out in the first trimester and I know exactly what happens during it, the medical and biological facts and for the vast majority of women, there is no trauma endured during it (provided of course the medical and surgical team are doing a good job as is the case with any surgery) and afterwards the vast majority of women experience only a huge sigh of relief. But if you think an early trimester abortion is mentally, emotionally and physically truamatic, you should try giving birth, especially in a situation of unwanted or crisis pregnancy. I agree of course that women in crisis pregnancies need all the support and help they can get and counselling in relation to their decision. but ifa woman is in a crisis situation and does not have any help or support and decides to have an abortion, she is the only one affected by her own actions.

Rocky - 08/11/2006 10:58

Alice you appear to be extremely selective in your reading. Then again I suppose you have to be to maintain your stance on this issue. I never suggested that saving some ones life was evil. Killing is evil. Killing one life to save another is the lesser of the two! I quote “but if a woman is in a crisis situation and does not have any help or support and decides to have an abortion, she is the only one affected by her own actions”. The ONLY one effected? You sure you haven’t omitted something here? How callas can you get! What about the life of the unborn child? Its heart has been beating since day 25, its brain is functioning since day 40, it has formed its teeth under the gums and begins to grow fuzzy hair, all within the first trimester. After 20 weeks, just seven weeks after the first trimester the baby is capable of surviving outside the womb! As for the mother, according to medical journals physical complications such as these are common, as are bleeding, hemorrhage, laceration of the cervix, menstrual disturbance, inflammation of the reproductive organs, bladder or bowel perforation, and serious infection. Yet according to you there is no trauma endured and women only experience a sigh of relief? According to top psychologist, Wanda Franz, Ph.D., in a congressional hearing on the impact of abortion, "They (women) report horrible nightmares of children calling them from trash cans, of body parts, and blood”. "When they are reminded of the abortion," Franz testified, "the women re-experienced it with terrible psychological pain. They feel worthless and victimized because they failed at the most natural of human activities -- the role of being a mother." However luckily for them, with the growing awareness of Post Abortion Syndrome in scholarly and clinical circles, women with PAS can expect to receive a more sensitive appreciation of the suffering that they endure. Unfortunately the aborted child is not afforded the same luxury! I find it almost incridable that people can completely block their minds to the truth and realities surrounding abortion and choose to believe any old rubbish if it suits their own end.

Alice - 08/11/2006 11:21

It is typical Rocky of people in your position to use emotive language to support your position. If it is unborn it is a foetus and certainly in the first trimeaster it is completely incapable of growth or even survival outside the womb. There have been no recorded medical cases of independant survival outside the womb prior to 24 weeks and if you have proof otherwise, kindly point us to it. But as I said, if you had read my post the vast majority of abortions are carried out in the fist trimester. Yes. bleeding and menstrual disburbance are quite common following abortion. They are quite common following the IUD or MAP as well. The incidence of lacerations of the cervix during early trimester abortionS is actually lower than during a D&c, which is quite a common procedure for many women. Bowel or bladder perforation is indication of very worrying surgical effectiveness as it would be if it was the result of any surgery. Now have you read the effects on women of childbirth, particularly traumatic childbirth? yes, for the vast majority of women, they are relieved. Wanda Franz is president of the "National Right to Life Committee" (U.S.) which should tell you a lot about her bias. I choose to believe the medical facts. What rubbish you or others choose to believe is up to them.

Anon - 08/11/2006 14:26

Rocky, you posted "I find it almost incridable that people can completely block their minds to the truth and realities surrounding abortion and choose to believe any old rubbish if it suits their own end. " unquote That sentence sums up your thinking. As for your friend Wanda ph D!! She is not talking about me, or anybody I know who have had to have an abortion so stop talking complete rubbish. You haven't a clue what you are talking about. You never seem to correlate what you consider "murder" to what Mother Nature herself, does in miscarriage ie. the many cases of the contents of many wombs being flushed down the toilet (25% of all 1st pregnancies end in miscarriage) You are entitled to your own opinion but you certainly do not have the right to enforce a feeling of guilt on any other human being. Deal with your own issues and leave the rest of us to deal with ours.

Rocky - 08/11/2006 14:37

My apologies 22 weeks! According to the observer, the youngest premature baby to survive was aged 22 weeks and born in Canada, but a handful of 22-week-olds are now being successfully resuscitated in the US and more rarely in pioneering British units, raising the possibility that this could become more routine. According to the British medical journal the outcome for the baby depends on many factors, not all obvious and including infection and maternal and fetal health. A reasonably easy to remember guide is that the survival rate is about 40% for all babies born at 24 weeks' gestation, 50% for those born at 25 weeks, 60% for those born at 26 weeks, 70% for those born at 27 weeks, and 80% for those born at 28 weeks. With advancements in modern medicine who can say what the future survival rates would be! You choose to believe in medical facts! Really? Yet you refuse to accept what Dr Wanda Franz, a developmental psychologist and a professor of child psychology has to say! Ironic at best. Either way whether a baby can survive or not outside the womb is irrelevant. No human can survive independently until adolescence. You say the vast majority of abortions are carried out in the fist trimester. May be that’s true, but when you consider that 77,000 abortions are carried out each year in the USA from 16 weeks on, it’s of little consequence. As mother Theresa once said “It’s a poverty that a child must die so you can live as you wish”

Alice - 08/11/2006 15:00

You read that in the "The Observer". Your choice of reading material on this matter says as much about the psychologist (not obstetrician, trauma specialist, ocologist or pathologist, it must be remembered) you choose to believe. Have you any idea of what Wanda Franz believes in terms idiologies and groups she chooses to support in West Virginia. If you do and that is the kind of society you want to live in good luck to you but I have no desire to turn back the progress that society has made over the last 100 years. That kind of extreme fundamentalist time-warp is not a route anyone with any concept of social progress whatsoever would want to go down. Your reckon that whether a foetus can survive or not outside the womb is irrelevant. Are you for real? It is precisely relevant. If no human could survive outside the womb until adolescence, then humans simply would have died out eons ago as they would be incapable of survival. The figure, I was referring to was in relation to the UK, where the vast proportion of Irish abortions are done.

Rocky - 08/11/2006 16:34

Read the post Alice, I said no human can survive independently outside the womb until adolescence! It is interesting if not somewhat disturbing that any human being could consider abortion as a benchmark for social progress! I prefer to measure social progress in terms of humanity and how as a society we value human life. I'm not over familiar with the ideologies of Dr. Franz but I am familiar with ideologies that had little or no respect for human life. Fortunately for us the scourge of Nazism collapsed after the Nuremberg trials! Anon, your twisted logic can only be described as self serving piffle. Mother Nature kills so you can too! Do you really consider abortions and miscarriages to be the same thing? And I’m the one talking rubbish? Thousands of people drown in the tsunami, so does that make it ok to drown someone? Nobody can force guilt on any body! Guilt is primarily an emotion experienced by people who believe they have done something wrong. In psychology and ordinary language, guilt is an affective state in which one experiences conflict at having done something one believes one should not have done. I have no intention, even if I could, of enforcing guilt on any body.

Alice - 08/11/2006 17:07

If you care to read my post properly you will see that I did not say that abortion was a benchmark for social progress, rather that the ideologies and groups subscribed to by Wanda Franz were anethema to anyone with any concept of social progress. Medically, miscarriage is what is known as spontaneous abortion. Again medical fact you choose to ignore. "Thousands of people drown in the tsunami, so does that make it ok to drown someone?" Now you really are talking utter rubbish. If you really have concern for how we as a society value human life why don't you argue for the lives of children who go to bed hungry every night or are witnesses to domestic violence or live in the nightmare of drug or alcohol abuse. Or the countless adults who are homeless or victims of abuse. Nobody can force guilt on anyone but they can have a very good try and if the person is in a position of emotional of physical vulnerability it can have a profound effect on them. Your Dr. Wanda, as a psychologist, is, I am sure perfectly well aware of this. Afterall, how do you think so many cults, sects and religions worldwide braiwash people into their particular brand of belief. Certain Christian sects for instance, would, without a shred of proof have their followers believe that they are guilty of the something which their ancestors did. How about victims of domestic abuse, if they are told often enough that they are bad people and deserve abuse, by their victims, their self esteem will become so damaged that they eventually begin to believe that they hold some guilt for their situation.

Anonymous - 11/01/2007 16:04

Could someone who has had a termination please tell me what the stages were from the time they entered the clinic to the time they were discharged?

Anon - 12/01/2007 19:08

Rocky, You quote a Psychologist, well, well! How irrelevant. I have yet to meet a psychologist who doesn't have serious psychological issues of their own. And to make matters worse you bring nazism into the equation with a mention of Mother Theresa! You prattle on about foetus' surviving after 22 weeks - really? Do you think for a minute we don't all know this. You won't get an abortion (except in life threatening situations) after 12 weeks so all your arguements are therefore redundant. You truely do not know what you are talking about. As I have said before if abortion is disagreeable to you then thats fine by me but what I decide to do with my life if faced with an unwanted pregnancy is my business & nothing you say will change my opinion. I have seen abortions carried out. I know what I seen and it wasn't a baby or anything remotely like a baby. Its impossible to resusitate a blood clot. We are not talking here about abortions after 12 weeks so stop muddying the waters talking about advanced foetus's as it just isn't relevant. Women have been having abortions since time began, so get over it Rocky. To the last poster, Anonymous. If you are up to 12 weeks you go into the clinic or where ever you choose, they will prep you in the same way as if you were going for a d & c (it is a d & c that they will do). You will get an anaesthetic and the d & c will be done whilst you are under anaesthetic. It only takes a few minutes and then you will sleep off the anaesthetic and be fine. There might be a little light bleeding afterwards, but not always. You will need to be seen for a check up a few weeks later. It is really only a minor surgical procedure & can be done as a day case. I can already hear all the so called Pro lifers getting up in arms now but ... please go preach at someone else, ta!

Anonymous - 15/01/2007 10:54

It is important to mention that there may be a little cramping afterwards - a bit like the cramps you may have got when you first had a period but let a nurse know and they will give you somethign to help you with that.

brazil - 25/03/2007 18:06

i had an abortion when i was 20. I had no money,I was on a J1 in the states and couldnt figure how to have an adoption where medical fees were so expensive plus my mother told me she would disown me if i ever became pregnant outside of marriage. it was terryifing. So i finished university. i believe i am a good person and contribute well to society. If i now become a mother i can offer my child a caring loving financially and emotionally stable enviroment. I had councelling which helped but i was still overcome with guilt. I went thru some abusive relationships since cos i felt i didnt deserve any better. Thats all over now. I believe i made the right decision. maybe people disagree with abortions could help by offering support rather than condeming us. By being proactive, changing negative opinions on single mothers, increasing state benefit for single mothers, help to break the glass ceiling for women at work,increasing paternity and maternity leave etc.

Rocky - 28/03/2007 16:13

Anon, a blood clot is not a baby! However it is a typical example of the unadulterated tripe that pro abortions will utter in a pathetic attempt to justify the horrific and vile act of abortion. Professor Campbell has perfected a technique which not only produces detailed 3D images, but records foetal movement in real time. From 12 weeks, unborn babies can stretch, kick and leap around the womb - well before the mother can feel movement the fetus’ kidneys have formed and the baby will start to pass urine into the amniotic fluid that surrounds him in the uterus. The eyelids have developed. Tooth buds are forming along with the vocal cords. The fetus now begins to bend and stretch, moving its arms and legs, making fists, opening hands and lifting its head. Nazi ideology promoted the idea that some human lives are not worthy of living, that it is morally and legally permissible to snuff them out,) in much the same way as supporters of abortion consider a developing baby as a blood clot and therefore somehow unworthy of life. Shame on you!

Anonymous - 28/03/2007 17:03

Is that your version of help and support Rocky? Typical of the kind of crap that the so called pro-life lobby come out with. The womans life doesn't seem to interest them at all. With attitudes like yours is it any wonder women feel so alone and encounter problems in a crisis situation. I own NO shame other than shame at living in a world populated with people who have attitudes like yours. SHAME on YOU. How DARE you be so sickeningly judgemental and looking down on women you don't even know. The vast majority of abortios take place in the first three months except in the case of real and grave danger to the life or health of the woman so your quoting Dr. Cambell is quite pointless. .

Rocky - 29/03/2007 09:28

Nobody has the right to pass judgment on any woman for having an abortion. We are all human beings and none of us are infallible. Besides no one can say how they would react in a particular situation unless you have been that situation. I don’t believe that people can be held totally responsible for decisions or actions taken while under the immeasurable stress of a crisis. Many women have been exploited and deceived by abortionists and lead to believe that their unborn child is not human and is no more than a blood clot. Nothing could be further from the truth! Contrary to what many non-scientists believe, human beings are not constructed in the womb - they develop there. In fact, all the major organ systems are initiated within the first few weeks after conception. The process of embryonic development is a continuous process, with no obvious point at which the fetus magically becomes a "person." In fact, the development process continues well after birth, including many characteristics that determine our personality or personhood. What are the stages in human embryonic development? Science tells us that the heart of the human fetus begins to form 18 days after conception. There is a measurable heart beat 21-24 days after conception. This is only 7-10 days after a woman would expect to begin her menses. Since most women have cycles that can vary by this amount, they do not discover they are pregnant until after this point. Therefore, all abortions stop a beating heart, even "early" abortions. However, most abortions do not occur until 4-6 weeks after the fetus begins to form. The human brain begins to form on day 23 is formed enough to produce brain waves by 6 weeks, which means that most abortions destroy a functioning human brain. Its no ones right to do wrong! For many women abortion is an agonizing decision. Truly her choice is between life and death — a live baby or a dead one. But, for many women, it doesn’t end with the abortion. It can impact the rest of her life. There can be physical complications. Perhaps more important, for many, is the emotional and psychological aftermath that can result. “People do not understand that there are thousands of serious physical complications from abortion every year in this country." -- Dr. Bernard Nathanson, (Former abortionist)

Anonymous - 29/03/2007 10:28

The definition is quite clear. A foetus becomes a person, legally, when it is born i.e and independant human being outside of the body of another. However, you are obviously are confusing fertliation with implantation which is causing errors in your calculation of the span of days. Most pregnancy testign kits can now predict pregnancy on the first day on which a woman expects her period. There can be physical complications with every single surgical prcedure. Early abortion - i.e. a D&C is among the safest of these. All miscarriages stop a beating heart also and 75% of pregnancies end in miscarriage.

Rocky - 30/03/2007 08:07

There is no more pivotal moment in the subsequent growth and development of a human being than when 23 chromosomes of the father join with 23 chromosomes of the mother to form a unique, 46-chromosomed individual, with a gender, who had previously simply not existed. Period. No debate Internationally-known geneticists and biologists have testified that human life begins at conception. In 1981 (April 23-24) a Senate Judiciary Subcommittee held hearings on the question: When does human life begin? The following doctors testified: Dr. Hymie Gordon, Chairman of the Department of Genetics at the Mayo Clinic, said: "By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception." Dr. McCarthy de Mere, a medical doctor and law professor at the University of Tennessee, testified: "The exact moment of the beginning of personhood and of the human body is at the moment of conception." Dr. Jerome Lejeune, The Father of Modern Genetics, testified that, "Each of us has a very precise starting moment which is the time at which the whole necessary and sufficient genetic information is gathered inside one cell, the fertilized egg, and this is the moment of fertilization. There is not the slightest doubt about that and we know that this information is written on a kind of ribbon we call the DNA." The late Dr. Lejeune of Paris, France, discovered the genetic cause of Down Syndrome. He received the Kennedy Prize for this discovery, as well as the Memorial Allen Award Medal, the world's highest award for work in the field of Genetics. At fertilisation (conception), a new, unique, living human individual is present. He or she is not part of the mother any more than he or she is part of the father. At conception all the hereditary characteristics of the new human being are established, including colour of eyes, gender and build. Nothing more is needed to determine the development of the embryo. All the information about how the baby is to grow and develop is contained in the original single cell at conception. Nothing is added after conception except oxygen and nutrients (food and water), the same essentials that are needed to sustain human life after birth. All human life is of equal value. The life of the child in the womb is neither more nor less important than that of the mother. There is therefore no moral objection to measures aimed solely at curing a life-threatening condition in an expectant mother, even if this leads to the child's death. In such circumstances (for example, entopic pregnancy in the fallopian tube), treatment that is ethical does not involve deliberately killing the baby. According to the NHS in the UK It is thought that in most cases of early miscarriage the cause is a 'faulty' chromosome - a one-off genetic problem in the baby that commonly does not happen again in future pregnancies. Miscarriages account for ¼ of all pregnancies and are not preventable where as abortions; the deliberate killing of an unborn children are 100% preventable All abortion involves an assumption that the lives of unborn children are of less value than other human lives, and are therefore expendable.

Anonymous - 30/03/2007 10:31

The fertilised egg cannot grow and develop AT ALL until and unless it is implanted into a uterine wall - basic medical fact. It cannot develop into a human in a petri dish, in a test tube, in a freezer (freezing is used in the IVF process), in a cervix, in a fallopian tube, outside of the human body or anywhere else. The word 'conception' has no scientific merit in todays world. It is meaningless. Remember 1981 was over a quarter of a century ago. Implatation is recognised worldwide as being the point at which growth (of the zygote) begins after which, and only after which the blastocyst, embryo etc has the potential (all other conditions being present) to develop. If a living human individual were present in a fertilised egg then much of the IVF technique would be impossible (which it patently isn't) as iut involves freezing a thawing afertilised egg - which may then (all other conditions being present) become a living person. It is not possible to freeze and thaw a livign human being - the science of cryogenics not being and never having been at present in existence. Nothing more Do you believe that nothing more is needed to determine the development of the embryo? Wrong - an attached placenta is needed or the egg does not grow or develop or become a foetus, baby or anything else. You thing nothing is added after fertilisation except the same essentials that are needed to sustain human life after birth. Wrong again, the placenta is not needed in order to develop after birth (which is why it is expelled after a baby is born) Therefore a fertilised egg, be it that in a petri-dish, freezer, fallopian tube or flushed out during a period (and this is considerable moe frequent than many imagine, or otherwise unattached to the uterine wall is patently and very obviously not a person. The fertilsed egg is part of the mother while s/he is physically attached to, living in and vitally dependant on her. In ectopic pregnancy the treatment involves removing the fertilised egg - what you would consider to be the baby., effectively rendering non-viable, or in your view "killing" it. But of course it is not a baby, it is a fertilised egg. Here there is no way of knowing the cause of miscarriage because it is not invesitgated until a third miscarriage occurs with no intervening live birth. 8 out of 10 fertilised eggs are flushed out of the uterus sometimes without the woman even knowing she was pregnant, a proportion of these are quantified as miscarriages. But if you are really so concerned about human life, childrens lives, why not go and put your concern to real actual use and do something about the thousands of children daily, who are beaten, abused, starved, sold into prostitution and slavery, forced into child labour, forced into child soldiering, multilated and left to die on rubbish heaps. These are real children brought into and actually living in this world with no love, no food, no safety and some with no shelter, not fertilised eggs over which you can have no control.

T_T - 22/05/2007 18:43


Alice - 23/05/2007 08:54

T_T, my advice would be to seek non directive counselling as soon as you possibly can. The positive options service is a freelly available public service which will advise you as to what your options are and provide contact details for various services. I would say, no you don't have to give up your plans for the future. But ask yourself some questions: Could you include a child in those plans? Do you want this baby? Would you have help and support through the pregnancy? Even if you don't have children at the moment, ask yourself, do you want childrne at some stage? If so, bear in mind that there may never be a perfect time to have a child. Also ask yourself, if you didn't have this baby, do you think there ever could b a time when you would regret that? Also, does your ex know about the pegnancy? Would be be a good father to the child?

T_T - 23/05/2007 13:55

Thanks Alice, thoese questions very helpful to me. I have most negative answer of them. I've already decided to do abortion in England. I just worry abt 2 things: 1, Would my future husband know i had abortions before e.g.from any documents in the hospital? 2, Would my health and womb become too bad after 2 abortions to carry a new baby in the future?

Alice - 24/05/2007 08:42

Oh T_T, my heart goes out to you as this must be a terrible time for you. Your future husband won't have access to your medical records in the UK and any medical records here (from your referral) will confidential to you and the doctor or clinic which referred you. Which regard to your health and womb in relation to having future children, I am not aware of what pre-existing medical conditions you have so this is something you will need to discuss both with the referring doctor or clinic and the clinic in the UK. But when I hear you mention the desire to have children in the future, I would say bear in mind that there may never be a perfect time to have a child, so I would say ask yourself, if you didn't continue this pegnancy, do you think there ever could be a time when you would regret that? Also if you did decide to continue the pregnancy, would you have help and support through the pregnancy from any source - parents friend, colleagues even? I'm not trying to be pushy or directional, I'm just saying that just in case you do feel panicked into makin a decison, it might be a good idea to sit down and talk with someone - it doesn't have to be a counsellor or a crisis pegnancy agency, even a sympathetic friend might help. Just my opinion. Take care of yourself.

T_T - 24/05/2007 16:06

I appreciate your sympathy and kindness. Your words really encourage me to face the future whether I will take it or not. Anyway, I have already got calmer now. I will go through this and never let it happen again! Thanks again, Alice!

Alex - 11/06/2007 23:44

Rocky, my eyes are glazing over trying to read your posts. It like a marathon 'pro-life' halmark card! What about the life of the woman? its her body! Her choice I know you cant understand what it is like to contemplate the idea of growing somthing inside you that will take over your body and your life. Men have it so bloody easy. I dont care what you call it 'tiny helpless baby' or ball of cells ,whatever, these are labels that dont change the situation. It cant change the fact that a women has a right to her life. I am very pro life-pro the womans life. T_T I hope you are well now and at peace with your decision.

Pixie - 14/06/2007 00:47

You will note that when we talk about the necessity of abortion for some women we talk about abortion up to 12 weeks. You will also note that when Rocky talks about abortion he talks about it FROM 12 weeks. 2 totally different stages in gestation. But the end result from his point of view is to shock, horrify and pour guilt on anyone who is contemplating abortion. ALL Gynae/Obs in Europe perform abortions on women who have been counselled and who still decide this is the only route for them. They perform them UP to 12 weeks because up to that point an abortion is done by suction. Nothing that is formed in any density other than a blood clot (collection of cells in a soft mass) can be suctioned out of anyone. I would prefer to trust these highly qualified people who are in fact, the very people who (in most countries) deliver babies safely and healthily, than I would want to trust Rocky and his complete rubbish about abortion. Rocky is responsible for his own sexual behaviour. When men understand what it is like to be pregnant and not supported by a partner, left without any money, ways of supporting a baby or otherwise, then Rocky will be able to give his opinion but until that time, I would advise that everyone reading this discussion would just ignore him. Hell Fire and Damnation is nothing to do with why women face this decision so it has no place in this discussion.

Pixie - 14/06/2007 23:50

Another interesting fact. If a woman is murdered in the UK/Ireland and she is pregnant the charge is only murder of the mother UNLESS the pregnancy is more than 5 months. Up to 5 months, according to the law, it is not considered murder of a baby. Interesting clarification in law considering even those of us that realise the need for abortion for some women, yet even us, acknowledge that 5 months is not acceptable for an abortion. Sort of blows all of Rocky's rationale out of the water somewhat!

me_18 - 16/08/2007 01:33

I just went through an abortion, I'm 18 yrs old, and I never realized it would be this bad. I was just wondering, how do other people handle it? is it really that bad for all of us?

Anonymous - 16/08/2007 10:01

me_18, please remember that you made the best decision for you in your circumstances, that you could have with all the information and resources you had at the time and that is all anyone an be expected to do. Just afterward, your hormones are bound to be a bit topsy turvy but if you still feel low or upset after a number of weeks then do seek Independent counselling. I know the IFPA have very good referrals for this. Look after yourself.

Mrs.M - 16/08/2007 17:51

Pixie as a pregnant woman I find your posts offensive, not Rocky's. Rocky doesn't only speak of abortions on foetuses from 12 weeks nor does he pass judgement on women who have had abortions. If you look at his post on 29/3/07 you would see this. Unfortunately Rocky speaks the truth. Abortion advocators confuse already confused women by insisting they aren't carrying a child, only a blood clot. Due to complications with my own pregnancy I had a scan at 5 weeks 5 days and again at 11 weeks 5 days. I wasn't looking at a blood clot on either occasion. The heartbeat was clear on the first scan. Yes it's true that women/girls will always have crisis pregnancies but abortion is not the answer. By having abortions they themselves become victims. More support should be made available to these women and more compassion needs to be shown to them. Abortion is NEVER the right solution. me_18 Anonymous is right, you should seek counselling for what you've been through. You will get through this but it will take some time to heal. I wish you the best of luck and no-one is judging you. Take care.

Anonymous - 17/08/2007 08:46

Mrs M. Pixie speaks only the truth. As any woman unfortunate enough to micarry at 6 or 8 weeks knows, the resulting miscarriage does indeed consist of a collection of loosely formed cells which resenble a blood clot. Aboriton clearly was the solution for some women and not for others. Perhaps you own, quite happy, pregnancy is clouding your views but your dogmatic prejudiced approach is helping no-one.

me_18 - 19/08/2007 18:02

Thanks u guys.. I did have a miscarriage 2 months before the abortion, and that was as bad, but the miscarriage i couldn't help.. but i made a descision to have an abortion, all because my boyfriend was moving far away for a long time, i know i could handle it without him, but i didn't feel strong enough. i had my mum and dad and my sister and brother, and taking that in consideration, i feel i made the wrong decision. they said they would support me if i wanted to keep the baby, but still i took an abortion, because of my boyfriend, and now i regret my descision. i feel i lost a part of me, and that it was all my fault and that i should be punished for killing something that was growing inside of me just because i didn't think that i could do it.. so many women have babies, with no help, maybe are they poor, but they still keep the child, i just went and killed it because of my stupidness...

Mrs.M - 21/08/2007 15:03

me_18 don't be so harsh on yourself. You did what you thought was right and you don't deserve to be punished. What you need right now is to go for post-abortion counselling. Maybe you should talk to your mam if you think this would help you? I'm sure she'd help you get through this traumatic time, or maybe a close friend if you're not comfortable telling your mam. Pixie, this is why abortion is wrong because it doesn't actually help young girls like me_18. It makes them feel worse.

Anonymous - 02/11/2007 12:08

Anne Marie, Just been reading this forum and noticed what you have suffered since you terminated your pregnancy 2 years ago. I hope life is better for you now. You went through an awful lot of grieve as I m sure so many women do post abortion. Just wanted to say I hope life is a lot better now.

Anonymous - 15/12/2007 09:28

I had some wonderful insights when i read about this topic. Since most girls feel so bad after the abortion process i will advise that before a girl goes for it,those passing through the post abortion trauma should be allowed to counsel her so that she will know what happens after the abortion, let them know that it is not the solution to an unwanted pregnancy.

Anonymous - 17/12/2007 15:04

Most girls don't feel so bad after the abortion process - but they don't post on it because they don't go seeking help - because it is not an issue for them. There is absolutely no way those in the midst of post-abortion trauma be allowed to counsel those in a crisis pregnancy.Even if they are appropriately skilled and qualified ( which is imperative in the first instance) , they need counselling themselves in order to be able to handle their own post-abortion issues before being in any position to adequately counsel anyone else. As regards what happens after the abortion - every woman is different as is every situation. Most women are fine but some are inadequately prepared and improperly counselled because they panic and rush into their decision much of the time. And they see abortion as being the only solution. For anyone in that situation I would most strongly urge them to seek Independent Non-Directive Counselling.

Anonymous - 19/03/2008 13:26

Hello All I had two abortions, 1 when I was 25 and another when I was 26. I didn't tell anyone on the first occasion and I only told my partner on the second occasion. I received pre-abortion councelling on both occasions and I was satisfied that I made the right decision for me at the time. I didn't feel bad afterwards either. I am now 32, am married and I told my husband about both abortions and he was supprised but did not judge me and we are now planning to have a baby ourselves. I would also consider myself to be pro-life, in a sense. I believe that having a child is the most important thing you can do in life and I didn't want to bring an unwanted child into the world, so I didn't. Now my partner and I would very much like to have a child, we have discussed it at length, have prepared ourselves in terms of health (mental and physical) and now I think is the right time for us. I hope this helps others who make the choice to have an abortion.

Anonymous - 21/08/2008 12:05

Oh look... a thread where women who have murdered their unborn babies can come for absolution and a pat on the back. What is wrong with the world...

Charlotte(cbreen) - 21/08/2008 12:20

Anonymous Posted: 21/08/2008 12:05 Ah look, another person who wants to judge others without the courage and/or moral conviction to do so under their own name...

Anonymous - 21/08/2008 12:22

Oh good grief. What kind of twisted individual are you? This thread is for and by women (and men) who have experienced trauma resulting from or surrounding abortion and you come on here with you "holier than thou" judgmental crap. I am surprised your SICK comment was even posted. If you have nothing positive to offer then go get your sick kicks elsewhere where your callous heartless dispassionate cruelty won't hurt other people.

Anonymous - 21/08/2008 12:41

"callous heartless dispassionate cruelty"? - I am NOT the one who has had an abortion, so perhaps that description would be better fitted to some of the OTHER posters on this thread? And you are surprised that my thread was posted? Why? Do you think they only post comments that agree with what you're saying? You are not the only one entitled to an opinion. And for the record, I do not get "kicks" out of discussion forums like this. They sadden me. And dont even think about playing the "holy card" here because I have not mentioned religion in my post. I am sick and tired of pro choicers accusing those who stand up for the unborn as being bible bashers, just because you are all out of arguments. Abortion is wrong, and no amount of pro-choice, pc, "my body is my property" type arrogance is going to take away my right to express that.

Anonymous - 21/08/2008 12:44

charlotte please dont insult me by preaching to me about MORAL conviction. Anyone who condones abortion cannot afford to take the moral highground without being utterly laughable...

Charlotte(cbreen) - 21/08/2008 13:18

Anonymous Posted: 21/08/2008 12:44 Def: Condone To overlook, forgive, or disregard (an offense) without protest or censure. /P If you'll look back over the discussion, you'll find both protest and censure, of the lack of support, education and choices available to people dealing with crisis pregnancies. /P My morals tend more towards defense of all the defenseless, even if they are not all small and cute. A pregnant rape or incest victim is in need of our defense. An impoverished woman who cannot afford to support another child, or who cannot face worsening the position of her existing children is also need of our defense. /P I repeat my belief that until education and affordable contraception for all is available as a right, we will always have abortion. /P I repeat my belief that until we educate our children in their responsibilities with regards their sexuality, we will always have abortion./P That even with that, no contraception is 100% reliable. So we will always have abortion. /P That a woman has a right to choose when, how and with who she gets pregnant. And until we deal with our current and future social reality instead of spouting sanctimonious, usless diatriabes, we will always have abortion. /P Your personal bitterness is not a helpful addition to this board. /p Have you nothing helpful to offer by way of opinion in how to end a situation where abortion is a necessary alternative when a woman in crisis pregnancy just cannot cope with that pregnancy?/P It amazes me that those that call themselves 'pro-life' are so profoundly negative when it comes to trying to find alternatives to a reality where abortion is part of our society./P While I obviously support your right to your own opinions, please be useful in some way to the furthering of this discussion.

Anonymous - 21/08/2008 14:04

How DARE you insult other women like that. You don't know their lives, their circumstances or their problems. You have NO RIGHT to judge like that. No one does. I am surprised it was posted because it is presumptuous, twisted, judgmental and in fact wrong. I never mentioned any "holy card" I am sick and tired of narrow minded judgmental insulting "pro-lifers" making accusations and judgments on people when it is NONE OF THIER BUSINBESS. There are no "arguments". Abortion is a womans choice - always will be. It may be wrong for - that's your call, whether its wrong for others is NOT your call and nothing can ever make it so. With abortion, there is no "moral high ground" becuase it is up to each and every individual woman. Well said Charlotte, I support absolutely every word. Your kind of commen sense is sorely needed on the abortion legalisation discussion. Natalie.

Anonymous - 21/08/2008 14:23

Charlotte, dont assume that you can tell me what to post. Do you OWN this discussion or something? All you have to do is open your eyes and have a look around some of the abortion discussions here to see that time and time again, people (myself included) have tried to suggest ways in which unnecessary abortions could be avoided, but the arrogance of the pro choicers prevades. I am sick and tired of people like you using women who have been raped or women who are in medical danger as scapegoats for the vast majority of abortions. They account for a very small percentage. I do not have a problem with a women who has been raped being allowed access to an abortion (and the same for a woman who is in medical danger if the pregnancy continues) and I would welcome a change in the current situation to include legislation to allow easy access to terminations for these people. That said, the reason I would be opposed to legislation, is because I KNOW it would be abused by the other say 90% of women who are having abortions because they were careless enough to get pregnant knowing full well they do not want a child. THAT is what I take issue with. To be honest, I have very little time for anyone who puts the right to chose over the right to life. Without the right to life, we have no other rights anyway, and this paramount right should, first and foremost, be protected. Only then can we address the right to chose. I also have to take issue with you using failed contraception as a justification. Of course I am aware that it can fail, but if you look at the statistics, do you really think that the hundreds of thousands of women who have abortions each year do so because either their contraception failed or they were raped? get real. I am fed up with people using minority situations as if they had some sort of leverage in this argument. And for the record, dont insult me by assuming that I am pro life because babies are "small and cute" - that has nothing to do with it. I do not have personal bitterness as you say, I simply have morals, and an inherent idea of what is right and of what is wrong. My brother was adopted, and if his mother had taken the easy way out, he would not be here. What is so irritating about this thread is the arrogance of people who have had abortions and think that they are then entitled to help. Why? There are women who lose their babies through miscarriage. They are entitled to grieve. My friend lost her precious little baby boy last year. He was only 15months old. he just died in his sleep for no reason. SHE is allowed to grieve. There are people whose children have been abducted and raped and killed. THEIR mothers are grieving. Why do women think they have a right to have an abortion and then have the audacity to feel bad about it? If they feel that strongly about it then why have one? The hypocrisy is baffling....

Anonymous - 21/08/2008 15:19

"unnecessary" - the only person to decide what is neccessary is the woman herself because only she can know. Inflamatory and judgemental arrogance does not reduce the number of abortions. However Charlotte's sane and sensible advice certainly would. You do not have a problem with a women who has been raped being allowed access to an abortion? What do you want - congratulatiosn for that. That is the minimum which every normal decent civilised person would mandate with regard to abortion yet Irish women are denied it in their own land. As for the rape cases, how naive of you. It takes years for a rape case to come to court, only a tiny percentage actually do and a tinier percentage still result in convictions. What a horrific tableau to suggest forcing a rape victim to have a baby becuase the case has not come to court. If a conviction resulted and abortion had been denied her she could sue the state. If a conviction rsulted and was subbsequently overturned., the state could sue here back. It would be totally farcical if it didn't concern womens lives. You think every crisis pregnancy was as a result of carelessness - Try livign in the real world. Have you found the perfect contraceptive all of a sudden? Enlighten us? You don't KNOW anything would be abused without the FACTS to back it up. You speak of "right to life" - what hypocrisy. What about the lives of women - or do you think they give up those rights the minute they get pregnant and somehow its no longer primarlity their bodies in the fist instnace as a foetus has more rights. What a complete lack of respect for women. Do I really think that the thousands of women who have abortions each year do so because either their contraception failed or they were raped - I don't know and frankly niether do you. I too have morals and an inherent idea of what is right and of what is wrong and I know that morals are subjective to a time, place and person. Always have been. But if you think abortion is the "easy way out", you have either learned NOTHING - ABSOLUTELY NOTHING from reading this discussion or you prefer your own ignorance. So you think you are entitled to make a woman have a baby against her will (it is illegal to force feed someone. yet you think its ok for you to force birth on them) regardless of circumstances - yet you think woman who have had an abortion should be denied help.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 21/08/2008 16:28

Anonymous Posted: 21/08/2008 14:23 Perhaps I'm misreading my own previous post. Would you be so good as to point to where I TOLD you to do anything? I ASKED you to be constructive. (quote: "While I obviously support your right to your own opinions, please be useful in some way to the furthering of this discussion.") I did not TELL you to do anything. I'm not a great believer in telling others how they should live their lives. I'm sure that rape victims and those under medical threat who abort a pregnancy breath a sigh of relief knowing that you "do not have a problem...[with them] ...being allowed access to an abortion." I find it interesting that if you can countenance ending a pregnancy in those circumstances, you obviously consider that the rights of the mother, in those circumstances, outweigh those of the unborn child. But that opinion is contradictory to your statement that "[You] simply have morals, and an inherent idea of what is right and of what is wrong". If you can countenance abortion in some circumstances (i.e. that it is 'right' in those circumstances), then it is not with abortion itself that you have an issue, but with the choices of the women in question. So by denying those women access to abortion, you are choosing pregnancy as a punishment for them. (i.e. they are 'wrong' therefore they cannot have access to an abortion.) I'm currently in the midst of my second pregnancy, carrying my second child, with great happiness. That anyone would be required to do this with fear/panic/resentment instead of happiness because someone else feels they should be punished for their choices or mistakes is truely horrifying to me. In life, we all do things we regret. We all make decisions we look back on with sadness. Even when we still feel we made the correct decision at that time, we can have regrets. Believing that someone who grieves over a baby (who, for whatever reason, never was born,) doesn't have a right to do so shows a remarkable lack of humanity, in my opinion. And I understand your point with regards your brother. Kindly remember that each of us would not exist if our individual mothers had not gone through with their pregnancy. I find your belief that abortion is an easy way out to be incorrect and inaccurate. Reading through even a small sampling of the posts in this discussion shows that few people have the ability to make such a huge decision and not be changed by it through out their lives. As to "hundreds of thousands" of woman you claim have abortions each year, the current figures from the IFPA are that that 5,042 women with Irish address reported having abortions in 2006. That was a decrease each year for the past 5 years. At a population of 4.5 million in Ireland, that is a very small percentage and hardly consituted the "hundreds of thousands" you claim. The decreasing numbers of abortions as the collective finances of the country rose would also indicate that better financial position/support and services makes abortion less likely as a choice. But it is lucky that potential legislation is not dependent solely on your say so, as you claim to "KNOW it would be abused by the other say 90% of women who are having abortions because they were careless enough to get pregnant". Would you be so good as to state, for the record, where your interesting numbers and statistics come from?

Anonymous - 22/08/2008 10:01

natalie can I ask why you feel the need to be so defensive? Is it perhaps a case that deep down you KNOW that abortion is wrong? There appears to be no other explanation for your rant. I stand by what I said, abortion IS wrong, it is the willfull killing of an unborn child. If I knew someone who had an abortion, there is no way I would even let them near my children - if they can kill their unborn then who is to say they wouldnt harm other vulnerable babies? I am perfectly within my rights to express how I feel about abortions, and really, if people cant cope when they are met with oppostion then why come on here and practiclaly boast about it? There is no law in place in Ireland that says that abortion can take place here, and even if there was, it is not a crime to argue with the law. I cannot stand that arrogance of "It's my body so I'll do what I want" - it may be your body but what of that of the innocent baby? The baby who didnt ASK to be conceived.

Anonymous - 22/08/2008 11:16

If I thought abortion was wrong FOR ME - then it would be MY CHOICE, not yours. I am defensive against ANYONE who thinks they hve the right to impose pregnancy and birth on a woman - that's the explanation. As for rants, Why don't you read your own posts or even better, read Charlotte's and answer her questions if you can that is. Abortion is wronf - for YOU, fine but you don't get to make those decisions for me. "If you knew someone who had an abortion, there is no way you would even let them near your children". What a judegemental narrow minded bigot you actually are. When you have had the crisis pregnancies that thouands of women have had, you earn the right to say that - not before. VBoast, you think people are boasting - READ the discussion, prehaps it wiull cure your ignorance. Actually there is a law here - if the woman is suicidal according to thelast referendum, then she is entitled - YES, ENTITLED to an abortion. And the lst supreme court judgement ruled that the young woman has the right to an an abortion. The baby didn't ask to be concieved - perhaps, but the woman didn't ask to be pregnant and before you start, sex does not automatically entitle imptregnation. he advent of contraceptives have given woman the right to say to pegnancy as they wish and no longer be slaves to their fertility. Natalie

Anonymous - 22/08/2008 11:21

charlotte just because abortion may be the right thing for someone who had been raped does not mean that it should be condoned for those who are too stupid to use protection. By grouping those two together you are putting both women at the same level, something which I suspect a rape victim wouldnt appreciate. You cannot be black and white about an issue like this and say that if it's ok for one person then its ok for another. That is a ludicrously simplistic approach. It would be like saying that if you believe in life imprisonment for a child rapist and killer then you are obliged to give the same sentence to a homeless woman who shoplifts to feed her child.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 22/08/2008 11:46

Anonymous Posted: 22/08/2008 10:01 You say "I am perfectly within my rights to express how I feel about abortions" and give total power to the rights of the unborn. That's a lot of rights protection for someone who is more than willing to deny others their rights. And given you continue to hide behind the anonymous name, your personally aimed comments about Natalie are mean, petty, vindictive and small-minded. Your hurtful claim that one who has aborted a pregnancy would be a danger to babies is aimed to hurt as much as possible, given that you obviously believe that the poster in question has had an abortion. What a snide manner in which to try to "score points". That also means hat you know and comprehend that regret and sadness is a very real factor after an abortion, and you are trying to use that against someone in a personal way. You are deliberately trying to hurt someone on a personal level, as much as you possibly can. What a vicious, purposful attack. Your statement that a person who has aborted a pregnancy would be a threat to babies has as much validity as claiming that homosexuality=paedophilia. It is wrong and a deliberate attempt to hurt because of a hateful reaction to a perceived fault in someone else. It has as much validity as an opinion as you "hundreds of thousands", your "90%" and your baseless vindictive accusations.

Anonymous - 22/08/2008 16:29

excuse you, anonymous, but how exactly have I IMPOSED a pregnancy on anyone? I dont recall impregnating someone! No, as far as I can recall, unless it is a situation of rape, it is fairly reasonable to hold the WOMAN IN QUESTION accountable for her own pregnancy, NOT someone who wishes to stand up for the rights of the unborn.

Anonymous - 22/08/2008 16:32

Thank you Charlotte for your kind support. As it happens,I haven;'t had an abortion but I have two friends wi have and I cam on hre to offer support and help if I could to other women, knowing what my friends went through. But yes, of course you are right. If I had had an abortion imagine how urt and upset I woudl feel and others in that position might feel and anonymous if that was the purpose behind your atack then it truely was viciuous and quite frankly - twisted. You compassion clearly is only for those who are not born. Natalie.

Anonymous - 22/08/2008 16:35

And yes it IS my choice not to let any of these women near my children - you all seem to be very good at banging on about "my choice" this and "my choice" that yet when someone excercises THEIR choice to oppose your view, you resort to name calling (biggot etc) - that does NOTHING to earn you respect here. I am not the one name-calling, therefore I am not the one point scoring... You come on here shouting about how you have had terminations, and looking for pity from each other because you "feel bad" for what you have done and when someone expresses their opinion you rant and rave (yes, you DO). What were you expecting - a medal????

Anonymous - 22/08/2008 16:37

So suddenly you think you can decide who "should" and "shouldn't" have an abortion - according to you. Not your call anonymous. "too stupid to use protection" - how DARE YOU, judge women like that and for your informaiton no protection is 100%. Both women have crisis pegnancies so don't presuke to speak on behalf of rape victims. Actually I CAN be balck and wite about it if I wish - but I don't make thoe calls for othr women - that is THEIR choice NOT your or mine. If you are goigj to make a comparison please don't insult our intelligence by making irrelevant ones. If you think the "life of the unborn" is so sacred (but aparently not the life of the woman is completely circumstantial and almost irrelvant), then how can the manner of its conception make it anyless sacred? Natalie

Anonymous - 22/08/2008 16:40

charlotte how dare you compare homo.sexuals to women who have aborted their babies. I know a lot of gay people who suffer homophobia on a daily basis but there are 2 major differences at play here. First, people dont ASK to be gay, they are BORN that way, so pointing the finger at them is ludicrous because the situation is beyond their control. Second, most gay people I know would love the opportunity to become parents and yet society is against them every step of the way. They want children but are not allowed adopt because of homophobia. Women who have abortions have become pregnant knowing full well that it is possibole, and then they go and "undo" their mistake - how can you POSSIBLY compare the two?

Charlotte(cbreen) - 22/08/2008 18:09

Anonymous Posted: 22/08/2008 16:40 Read the comment. Read it slowly. I said: "Your statement that a person who has aborted a pregnancy would be a threat to babies has as much validity as claiming that homosexuality=paedophilia. " A comparison of validity of argument, not a judgement call in any way or approach. The point above clearly states that both arguments are facetious and false. They have no basis in fact, but only in prejudice and falsehood. And I fully support gay adoption. Again, that's about choice. Of the women I know personally who have had crisis pregnancies, 3/4 were using contraception. I've spoken to many women who were unaware that a stomach upset, bout of diarrhea or vomiting can all render the pill ineffective. One woman misjudged the timing of taking her pill after long distance travel. She counted back instead of forward and ended up missing a pill. Genuine error. In the overall numbers of abortions, I assume that in certain cases, education and it's lack was an issue, as it seems unlikely that all of them had been in that 1% failure rate of the combined pill. But you seem to believe that women are beligerantly throwing themselves in the way of crisis pregnancy. There is no factual basis for that. "Knowing full well that pregnancy is possible" is a valid statement. But claiming that because of that, only those willing to conceive are entitled to have sex is unrealistic. And, thankfully, not your call. That would be like saying that only those willing to be hit be a car should cross the road, as it is possible that that will happen too. If that is the case, and you do believe that only those willing to conceive should have sex, then again we're back to the point of crisis pregnancy as punishment. Which is just plain biased.

Alex - 23/08/2008 06:05

Anon if you truly feel women that have had abortions are threats to your children then I would go to great lengths to keep my children away from you! (if I had any that is). To stop you poisoning their minds with your crazy ignorant ideas. That was a statement aimed to hurt someone. Mean and vindictive! These are personal qualities that I would not like my children picking up from an adult who should know better. This will probably piss you off, but there is nothing you can do or say that will change the view that women do in fact have the right to protect their own bodies and well being. Did you know that pregnant women are 10 more at risk to blood clots than women on the pill (combined)? I think that we should start talking about the seriousness of the medical implications of being pregnant. This is not to upset anyone on this forum whom is pregnant or to scare monger. But to talk about pregnancy in real terms not as some mystical event that will not impact on the health of women, regardless of whether they keep the child or not. I think this is important to bring to this discussion. Women have the choice to say they do not want to have their mental and physical health compromised. I cannot imagine being forced to go though that. It is wrong. If at this stage in my life I found myself pregnant (although I am taking precautions and take contraception extremely seriously) I think (to be fair I cannot know) I would not go though with the pregnancy. Its my body my choice! I do believe that there are many women who have had abortions and get on with their lives they are not on this forum because they have not needed to seek help. This of course is not a comment or judgment on those who are here, it is good to talk and everyone is different every situation is different.

Nat - 25/08/2008 09:29

Anonymous, by denying a woman with a crisis pregnancy, an abortion and thus FORCING her to continue a pregnancy - you ARE imposing that on her. You NO NOT have that right. However, to imagine that ONLY the women is accountable for a pregnancy would indicate that you need a lesson in the MOST BASIC element on biology. Anonymous - READ what I HAVE POSTED - I did not have an abortion as a matter of fact, but regardless of that, even if I had, that does not validate any of your petty vindictive vicious little attacks. But if all you can get from this discussion is that women are looking for pity from each other then that IS complete and utter IGNORANCE, nothing else. And Anonymous - newsflash - women don't ASK for crisis pregnancies, no-one does. Gay couples or any couple wanting to adopt is irrelevant. If anonymous really does imgaine that only those willing to conceive should have sex - i.e. no-one is in their "entitled"to have sex more than the number of children they want, then not only is anonymous hysterically funny - or hideously laughable, s/he can alingn her/himself with the most extreme of the utter utter right-wing fundanmentalists renowned for their narrow-minded bigotry and their repulsive misogyny. If that is your beilef anonynous then clearly there is no way myself or Charlotte could argue logic with the most deluded or brainwashed - they occupy a course where logic cannot follow as they are simply devoid of it by their antithesis. Well said Alex, it is the rest of the populace who should be keeping their children away from the poisonous and dangerous dysfunctionality espoused by anonymous. And thank you for bringing the discussion back down to the realities of pregnancy - something which the "protecting the life of the "unborn" " - always seem scared to the point of horror to talk about. Reality scares them in their campaign, it seems. Natalie

Anonymous - 25/08/2008 10:20

Alex, with your attitude, I would be HAPPY if you kept your children away from me, after all, children learn what they live, and if their mother doesnt value human life then you can keep them away from me AND my children. Your comment reeks of "I know you are but what am I?" - I can practically see you jumping up and down and stamping your feet. Oh and if pregnancy IS such a medical danger as you would like to scare us all into believing, then may I make the simple suggestion of NOT getting pregnant? My comments were not intended to hurt, I simply speak my mind, but even if they DID hurt, I dont CARE. I dont feel under any obligation to spare the feelings of those who in my opinion have no regard for human life.

Anonymous - 25/08/2008 12:01

I am sooo sick and tired of hearing about crisis pregnancies. When will you all get it through your heads that the majority of abortions are not carried out because the woman has been raped or because the contraception split. That has been used to death by pro choicers, when in actual fact it makes up a very small % of total terminations. Oh and it is not ME alone that would deny a woman abortion. You ppl seem to forget that Ireland VOTED. The people's choice has been made clear, and implemented. If you don't agree, tough.

Nat - 25/08/2008 12:26

There was no attempt by Alex to scare anyone. The points about pregnancy are medically recognised fact the world over but the "protecting the life of the "unborn" " brigade are terified to acknowledge reality as it will shatter the myths that form part of their agenda. As for the "advice" of 'don't get pregnant' - if you have come up with the 100% reliable contraceptive - oh enlighten us. Oh, so you don't "care" if your comments hurt - this really betrays your attitude for what it is - protect the "unborn" at all costs but you don't give ONE TUPPENY DAMN about women - the real lives of real women, that is, whom you hurt. Then you have the audacity to speak of having regard for human life. It would be ironic if it were not so twisted. You do NOT KNOW the reason why women have abortions, so do not try to fool us all into thinking that you do - it's not working. However, your ignorance shines yet again, the peoples vote was not implemeted - you are WRONG - AGAIN. No legislation was ever enacted ensuring that women who are suicidal have the right to an abortion in Ireland and this was exactly what the poeple voted for- Abortion where a woman life is threatened by suicide. So despite your callousness in your comment of "tough", the will of the people has been denied to them and thus thier rights infringed by not safeguarding the constitutional right of women who are suicidal in garaunteeing access to abortion in Ireland. If you believe in consitutionality - and not just where it suits your agenda - then you will see this for what is is - intrinsically wrong. Natalie.

Anonymous - 25/08/2008 13:15

Oh right so the votes were corrupt were they?

Anonymous - 25/08/2008 13:20

I think the point was that if pregnancy is as treacherous as it is being made out to be then why do women get pregnant? There IS for most, an element of choice, or are you all going to continue trying to convince us that ALL pregnancies are due to rape or failed contraception? To expect anyone to buy that minority argument is an insult to one's intelligence.

Nat - 25/08/2008 14:18

Anonymous actually reading and understanding the posts The peoples vote was not implemented. No legislation was ever enacted ensuring that women who are suicidal have the right to an abortion in Ireland and this was exactly what the poeple voted for- Abortion where a woman life is threatened by suicide. No one is talking about corrupt votes except you. The will of the people has been denied to them and thus their rights infringed by not safeguarding the constitutional right of women who are suicidal in guaranteeing access to abortion in Ireland. If you believe in consitutionality - and not just where it suits your agenda - then you will see this for what is is - intrinsically wrong. Natalie

Charlotte(cbreen) - 25/08/2008 15:11

Anonymous Posted: 25/08/2008 13:15 Check your history (from http://www.ifpa.ie/abortion/hist.html ): - 2002 The Twenty-Fifth Amendment of the Constitution (Protection of Human Life in Pregnancy Bill) 2002. On the 6th March this regressive bill was defeated. Turnout was 42.89% of which 49.58% voted yes while 50.42% voted no. The status quo continues. - 2001 In October after a five year consultation the government announced plans to hold a referendum to reverse the 1992 X case ruling. - 1992 (Nov) | The Travel and Information Referenda Two Referenda were passed, amending Article 40.3.3 to safeguard the rights to travel and to information. A third Referendum was defeated. It would have limited the effect of the X case, by restricting the test to cases where the risk to the pregnant woman's life was due to an illness or disorder, and not to a risk of suicide. ======= So in effect, the country, even with such an appalling low turnout voted against the repressive bill requested by the 25th amendment, the most repressive section of which was : "A person who contravenes subsection (1) of this section, or attempts to do so, or aids, abets or procures any other person to do so, shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 years or a fine or both. " from http://www.refcom.ie/RefCom/RefComWebSite.nsf/0/BCA8C07D6CFA0A5D80256E97004E8D81 As a point of information, the only other act that has a defined a penalty in the constitution is treason.

Anonymous - 25/08/2008 15:11

do you or do you not agree that the referendum results reflected that the MAJORITY of voters voted NO, resulting in a NO vote? I am asking a simple question here... We were asked to vote. Some people may have voted yes, but more voted no. You cannot argue with the facts.

Anonymous - 25/08/2008 15:16

Well anonymous if having to point out the obvious to you is not insulting your intelligence I don't know what is - women who want chldren, take the risks associated with pregnancy - becuase they want children - if that weren't blindingly obvious, so clearly to them, the risks are worth it. However for women who do not want to be pregnant and /or do not want children why the heck should they have to take on those risks against their will because it suits the arrogance of someone like you- who freely admits you don't care about hurting women. Given you would seek to deny women an abortion there is most certainly NOT an element of choice - choice is in fact one thing that has been denied women. Therefore women must seek abortion in the UK. Natalie

Anonymous - 25/08/2008 15:26

READ Charlotte's post - do you even KNOW what they voted no to? Very obviously not. Check your facts before you post. Natalie

Charlotte(cbreen) - 25/08/2008 15:51

Anonymous Posted: 25/08/2008 15:11 I believe you are misrepresenting what a "No" vote meant, in the context of the 25th Amendment. The Amendment attempted to reverse the effect of the 1992 X case ruling and prevent the risk of maternal suicide as a valid reason for an abortion. The same amendment attempted to have a 12 year sentence imposed on anyone involved in procuring or providing an abortion*. In effect, those opposed to abortion for any reason voted "No" because the Amendment would have allowed abortion where there was medical (physical, but not mental) risk to the mother. Those who were in favour of legalising abortion voted "No" because of the 12 year sentence*, and/or a belief that a "Yes" vote didn't allow broad enough access to abortion. Those who voted "Yes" were those who wanted to legalise abortion in the very narrow set of circumstances of a physical medical risk to the mother life, but not where suicide was a risk, and who also were in favour of (or didn't object to/didn't know of*) the 12 year mandatory sentence for procuring or providing an abortion outside of those conditions. To claim that a No vote indicated a basic opposition to abortion per se is disingenous and untrue. I'm very much pro-choice and I voted No, as I believed that rights allowed didn't go far enough. And, as Natalie has pointed out, 6 years on, the Government have still refused to legislate for abortion in Ireland, where by constitution we are supposed to have the right to abortion under medical or mental risk. By they way, they also refuse to legislate for the knock on effects of IVF, where excess embryos are created. Moral cowardice on a grand scale. A truely Irish solution... * My reason for highlighting the 12 year sentence is that it was a more or less hidden clause of the amendment, little discussed at the time. Many people are still unaware that such a clause existed.

Anonymous - 25/08/2008 16:12

yes but if a woman DOESNT want the risks associated with pregnancy, and therefore DOESNT want a baby, my question still remains - why get pregnant?

Anonymous - 25/08/2008 16:20

if you check back and READ the posts, as people now seem to be accussing others of not doing, you will see that the issue of legislating has arisen recently, and I have stated that I would be in favour of new legislation that would allow access to terminations where women are in danger or who have suffered rape. I also expressed concern that such a system would inevitably be abused. If you remember this suggestion was completely shot down and accusations of being condescending etc were hurled my way (I can take it!). It would appear from reading posts on here that what people really want is a blanket legislation that will allow free and easy access to terminations for ALL women, and I cannot and WILL NOT condone such a system.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 25/08/2008 16:36

Anonymous Posted: 25/08/2008 16:20 You are not required to condone such a system. But that doesn't change the fact that constitutionally, we as a country have voted in favour of allowing abortion where there is a risk of suicide to the mother. And that the government are refusing to legislate for the will of the people. Personally I believe that broader rights to abortion should be allowed. It would appear that it doesn't matter to the government what either of us think. I also believe that no-one should be allowed leave formal education or take a state exam without first passing an exam ensuring they fully understand the biology involved in sexuality. And their responsibilites should they chose to be sexually active. Once they have that basic level of education, what they do is their own responsibility. But we as a country are failing our citizens be refusing to equip them with scientific information AND ensuring they understand it. Religion has nothing to do with the need to inform. Whether a child is educated by their parents to abstain or not, they should never be in a position of saying "I didn't know, or I didn't understand" in such a basic area of information.

Anonymous - 25/08/2008 17:05

I believe your questions have been answered - again - read the posts. If a woman does not want to be pregnant and yet gets pregnant, why does this happen - bar a lecture on human biology, which no doubt you would tell me you are aware of - there is inadequate contraception, unsuitable contraception, contraceptive failure, lack of access to contrception, lack of information and availabily and to be honest a pretty dire record in educating girls and boys on contraceptive awareness and human reproductive function. Anyone growing up in this country will recognise that. And that is not by any means comprehensive so when you have the perfect contraceptive that is 100% reliable for every woman in preventing unwanted pregnancy s a result of sexual intercourse, do let us know. Natalie

Anonymous - 26/08/2008 09:54

I also believe that no-one should be allowed leave formal education or take a state exam without first passing an exam ensuring they fully understand the biology involved in sexuality. And their responsibilites should they chose to be sexually active. I applaud your stance on this - not only should the scientific and medical facts on this be compulsary on the curriculum but yes, there should be an exam on it. Afterall if we have to be examined on subjects which we rarely use in daily life, then why not is such a vital area as this. Granted studies in the U.S. show that not only does abstainence only education (as in abstain for a decade plus until you marry and then you are "allowed" to use contraception) not work it ensures that when young women do become sexually actiuve they are far less likely to be prepared and protect themselves, hence leading to an increase in unplanned and unwanted pregnancies. But yes, give people all of the information, educate them and ensure they understand - then let them make their own decisions. And if anyone imgaines even for a second that sex education of an even minimal standard exists in every school in the country then they really do not have the foggiest notion what they're on about. Natalie

Anonymous - 26/08/2008 10:13

Lack of contraceptive awareness? Are you actually trying to tell us that women are now getting pregnant because they dont understand female biology? What rubbish! And suggesting a knowledge of anatomy and physiology as a pre-requisite to education rather than an essential component? Ridiculous suggestion. It is not up to me to "condone" anything but I am PERFECTLY within my rights to do so if I wish, as I am perfectly within my rights to be against something that I find issue with.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 26/08/2008 14:40

Anonymous Posted: 26/08/2008 10:13 "And suggesting a knowledge of anatomy and physiology as a pre-requisite to education rather than an essential component? " Your comment suggests again that you are not reading the replies you get. I said "I also believe that no-one should be allowed leave formal education or take a state exam without first passing an exam ensuring they fully understand the biology involved in sexuality." So that is "allowed leave formal education or take a state exam"...not as a prerequisit to education. But certainly as a prerequisite to entering adult life (i.e. "leaving formal education") or before going on to the state exams on which your educational future is based. Let's attempt to ensure that the teen drop out rate and teenage pregnancy rate does not trap a generation in poverty. Let's ensure that they at least have this basic level of understanding before insisting that they understand the grammatical structure of a foreign language or mathmatical theora. And that is not to undermine the importance of any other subject, before we get sidelined....

Anonymous - 26/08/2008 14:48

You are perfectly within your rights to be against something that you find issue with but it is NOT within your rights to condemn others who do not have issue with it. If you imagine that every young person leaves school with a complete understanding of and eduction in reproductive biology (of humans) and contraceptive awareness, then you clearly haven't a clue. To think otherwise would be would be hysterically funny were it not so utterly ludicrous. Go away and educate yourself about the realities of the lack of education about contraception and reproduction including all the lies and myths that young people are exposed to and then come back and discuss - at least you will have some knowledge of the REAL world and know at least a little bit about what you are talking about. By trying to discuss when you clearly haven't the foggiest about the basic realities of what you're on about only makes you sound completely foolish.

Alex - 27/08/2008 11:50

(why are there so many anons on here it pretty confusing) anon-"Your comment reeks of "I know you are but what am I?" " Seriously anon what the hell does that even mean?, I think I was 10 the last time someone shouted that in my face. anon-"Oh and if pregnancy IS such a medical danger as you would like to scare us all into believing, then may I make the simple suggestion of NOT getting pregnant? " You understand so little it's infuriating. Did I not say my point is not to scare monger but talk of reality (somewhere you are clearly not living) read the story recently posted in this site regarding women willing to take higher risks than doctors in delivery. What does that tell you? your interpretation will be entertaining if nothing else. Since when was not getting pregnant or getting pregnant simple? you are truly showing your ignorance of the facts of human reproductive biology and our limited understanding of it's complexities? can you explain why there are so many unwanted pregancies and yet so many women going though IVF at this moment? anon- "My comments were not intended to hurt, I simply speak my mind, but even if they DID hurt, I dont CARE. " Nice. I dearly hope that anyone on here will disregard your mean comments and not even spend a second of their lives taking what you say to heart. anon-"I dont feel under any obligation to spare the feelings of those who in my opinion have no regard for human life" Anon I am currently on a 3 month trip helping and raising money for children that are homeless and orphans through poverty and alcoholism, so don't you dare tell me I have no regard for human life. I have an extremly high regard for life and quality of life. If that is your opinion of me then that shows what your opinion is worth.

Anonymous - 27/08/2008 12:27

how lovely of you to resort to personal insults.. whats the matter, are you all out of valid points? Doesnt suprise me! To claim that women get pregnant because they do not have an awareness of human biology or contraception... now THAT is ludicrous. You should perhaps consider educating YOURSELF before you tell others to do the same. I am perfectly within my rights to judge those who have had abortions. There is no LAW against me judging someone by my standards. I cannot be arrested because I VOICE my opinion that abortion is wrong. There is NOTHING you can do about that. There will ALWAYS be those among us who actually use our conscience when deciding how we feel about a certain issue, and if you cant make your peace with the fact that there are people who believe that abortions are wrong, and that those who partake in them are wrong, then you will have a very hard life.

Nat - 27/08/2008 16:14

Excellent points Alex and may I say that your actions are admirable, you are doing something real and lasting for human life - rather than posting insulting diatribes on discussion for and about women who have experiences trauma related to abortion. Natalie here, by the way. I sign myself Nat on some posts because I think there is another Natalie on here too. Indeed anonymous is showing his/her ignorance and displays that s/he does not live in reality that you, Charlotte, most of the rest of the country and I do. Anonymous, perhaps you would care to enlighten us as to who has resorted to insults - except very obviously you. There are any amount of valid points in the last number of posts - if you would are to READ them. That women get pregnant because they do not have an awareness of human biology or contraception is ludicrous in this day and age,I would agree - but it is reality in Ireland in this today - a reality which you are clearly incapable of coping with. However, if you are unwilling to recognise reality - it is pointless to attempt to discuss it with you because attempting to debate your own personal fiction is the antithesis of reasonable logic and responsible discussion. NO - YOU ARE NOT WITHIN YOUR RIGHTS - to judge others. It is not within anyone's rights. That displays yet more of the extreme arrogance of your attitude. Travelling for an abortion is no crime - and even if it were, that is what we have court apointed judges for, not self-opinionated anonymouses. No, you cannot be arrested because you voice your opinion that abortion is wrong - but you can be completely a) arrogant and b) wrong. Just because abortion is wrong for you does not mean that you can decide whether it is wrong for someone else. NOT your call and there is nothing YOU can do about that. Natalie

Charlotte(cbreen) - 27/08/2008 16:19

Anonymous Posted: 27/08/2008 12:27 I feel you have brought some of the bad feeling aimed at you on yourself. You began your comments on this list (as far as we know, or can judge by writing style and tone, due to the use of the anon tag) with the following comment: "Oh look... a thread where women who have murdered their unborn babies can come for absolution and a pat on the back. What is wrong with the world... " You began with a vitriolic note. You gave no basis for your opinion, used no facts, but presented yourself as judgemental and "holier than thou". You later continued with "And for the record, I do not get "kicks" out of discussion forums like this. They sadden me", giving no reason other than to hit out at people with whom you disagree. So you come across as refusing to discuss (as in "discussion list", but wishing only to berate others. You presented opinions as though they were facts, "the reason I would be opposed to legislation, is because I KNOW it would be abused by the other say 90% of women who are having abortions because they were careless enough to get pregnant" but have no figures, statistics or back up information to support these views. So you have come across as a bigot. (bigot n. One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.) On the other hand, you probably feel those of us who have responded to you are jumping on you for your beliefs. And this in not necessarily true. You are entitled to believe whatever you wish to believe. That is obvious. But in terms of discussion/debate/education, it is best to start with your "best foot forward", and your initial comment on the list was so particularly small-minded, offered so little besides snideness, and due to your lack of actual discussion or debate in the ensuing comments, eventually you've come across as someone who deliberately searches out that which offends them, so as to complain about it or rail against it. In a discussion list such as this, where people have tried to share, to deliberately hit out as you have done was bound to get the response it did.

Alex - 28/08/2008 05:12

Thanks charlotte and Nat for supporting me there and all the other reasonable pople on this discussion. Anon I see you have resorted to the 'well there's no law against it' stance, playground tactics again. Why did you not respond to any of the points I raised? Your out burst has me sitting laughing at my computer. On the other hand it is sad and disheartening to see what we are up against to improve ireland for women. If you don't think that Irelands women and girls are poorly educated on reproductive biology then I would love to know where you got this idea? I went to a GP in a large town in County Cork to get antibiotics for a throat infection. I asked would they effect the pill i was on. He sat me down and explained that every time I had sex on the pill I killed a little unborn baby. Education my arse! How could we be educated with this rubbish being doled out as fact from people we are brought up to respect?

Anonymous - 28/08/2008 09:46

Alex, it doesnt matter to me how much work you are doing with children, if you condone abortion or have ever had one then I BELIEVE you have NO regard for human life, and no amount of volunteer work will convince me otherwise. Although perhaps it will go a long way towards absolution for you. The fact that posters on here are so much more reactive than on other topics is obvious, and one has to wonder why, if abortion is so "right", do you all feel the need to defend it so fiercely?

Anonymous - 28/08/2008 10:00

nat you are right there is nothing I can do to stop women having abortions overseas, but I WILL continue to exercise my right to express how I feel about abortion. I WILL continue to judge those who have undergone abortions because I feel they deserve no more. I WILL vote according to my beliefs should the situation arise again, and I will continue to be opposed to the whole concept of baby disposal. I AM within my rights to judge a situation based on my beliefs and morals, and I WILL continue to do so.

Nat - 28/08/2008 10:34

Oh good grief Alex,it is utterly incredible that a GP could be so A)completely utterly and irrevovably WRONG on the absolute basics of the action of the pill on the female reproductive system. I know there are ignorance extreme fundie right wing relgious nuts who are so ill-informed like that as to be a laughing stock to those of us in the real world but a GP in Ireland in this day and age - if that is the level of the pure and utter gross ignorance of someone who is supposed to be medically and scientifically trained at a level well above our selves, then what hope is their for young girls in schools and b) his conduct is judgemental where this has asolutlely no place in the medical profession, to the point where his diatribe was completely unprofessional conduct. Personally I would have reported him for gross misconduct and conduct unbecoming of a member of the medical profession. Imagine if he said that to a 16 year old?? Not only would she filled with his ignorant myths and lies but she would be an example of why it isn't any wonder that we have unplanned and crisis pregnancies here. His type of ignorance and rubbish spewed would leave me with zero respect for him. Natalie

Nat - 28/08/2008 11:02

Anonymous, what complete ignorance and glaring hypocrisy you display - Alex is takign time out of her life to give to the poorest, most unfortunateand most vulnerable - it therefore is patently impossible that she has no regard for human life. In fact the opposite is the case. She has more regard for most in doing what she does. Tho I don't imagine she does volunteer work to convince you of anything - there is no reasoning wiht bigots. Absolution? Absolution!! Just who exactly do imagine you are to come out with nonsense like that? You have me laughing out loud, you really do. It is because it is a rights that one hs to defend it so fiercely. You have to defend your rights lest they be taken away. Martin Luther King said something in that regard. You do NOT have the right to judge anyone - that is what we have court appointed judges for. You "feel they deserve no more"? HOW DARE YOU - HOW ABSOLUTELY DARE YOU. Who the heck do you think think you are that you imagine you have the right to be so judgemental? NOT YOUR CALL. I could easily judge someone with your attitude as being judgemental, narrow-minded, ignorant, biggoted, irrational and worse. How would you like that. Yes, you are entitled to vote, as are we all and you are entitld to your personal beleifs and morals but to judge according to what you think in your own mind is right - for you. NO absolutely you are NOT entitled to that, no one is. Natalie

Anonymous - 28/08/2008 11:52

"HOW DARE YOU, HOW ABSLUTELY DARE YOU" - nat I dont need to DARE to do voice my opinions, i simply voice them. It is not a dare, it is just something I do. And you tell me you are sitting up laughing at my post yet you still proceed to shout and bluster in block capitals? So are you REALLY sitting up laughing or are you just saying that to try to convince me that my my posts dont affect you, because obviously they do. I stand by what I said, if someone undergoes an abortion then I will judge them and I will retain strength in my conviction that the willfull killing of an unborn baby is WRONG. You can call me a hypocrite, you can call me arrogant, you can accuse me of being "holy" (although last time I checked thats NOT an insult), and you can call me a biggot for judging people by my moral standards, but in the company of women who have ended the lives of their unborn children, I do not see ANY of those as an insult. Merely an attempt on your part to deflect attention away from the REAL issue here.

Nat - 28/08/2008 12:49

Yes, Anonymous you are entitled to voice your opinions but you are not entitled to judge - no-one is, unless you are actually a court appointed official for that purpose - which I doubt. Natalie

Anonymous - 28/08/2008 14:08

you are using the term judge in it's technical and legal sense, when we all freely use the word every day in conversation. We ALL judge, whether we are involved with the law or not. I WILL continue to do so.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 28/08/2008 14:59

Anonymous Posted: 28/08/2008 14:08 Judge (def) 1: to form an opinion 2: to decide as a judge Actually, in conversation, the first use is the common usage. As you are most definately using the second form, you are not using the form of the verb as used in common parlance.

Anonymous - 29/08/2008 09:42

actually you are wrong there charlotte. Like I said, we all do it on a daily basis, I dont recall handing out a sentence to someone. You can copy and paste from as many online dictionaries as you like until you find the wording to suit your argument but it makes no difference.

Nat - 29/08/2008 10:10

Charlotte and Alex, it is impossible to reason with the unreasoned as much as we might like to enlighten them, their irrationality goes where logic simply cannot follow. It's like arguing with a child who insists that Black is white - except that a child larns a sense of logic as they grow up.

Charlotte(cbreen) - 29/08/2008 10:17

Anonymous Posted: 29/08/2008 09:42 Generally the term is used in the first sense, i.e. to form an opinion on... although people generally perfer to use a less "judgemental" expression, such as "I figure", " I reckon", "I think". (Interesting how even there, the term, as used in it's second form, points fingers from moral high-ground...) In your case, as you are judging, condemning (which you can hardly deny) and handing out sentence (you would deny those who terminate a pregnancy under conditions of which you disapprove access to children and you would deny those in crisis pregnancies who are not victims of rape or incest access to a service which for many of them has been mandated by this society as a right, access to abortion services) then you are in fact, not as part of an opinion, using the expression in it's second format. And your arguing with and about dictionaries will make no difference to the patterns of linguistics and semantics used in society. Accurate and informed use of the English language is another area which could do with a polish in our education system.

Anonymous - 29/08/2008 10:29

ah yes now we are going for the old playground tactic of talking to others and ignoring one whose beliefs differ from yours. My how very grown up of you nat, and you have the cheek to call ME a child.

Anonymous - 29/08/2008 17:09

I just have to say, women who have abortions, do NOT take lives! Especially when the "child" is no more than 3 months old, inside the woman's stomach. Usually, we do Not choose to have an abortion, it's just that we have no choice. We are not ready, we are not mature enough to handle a baby, and when Alex, u ask why get pregnant at first? We do not plan to get pregnant just to have an abortion later. It usually is a mistake, something went wrong, and finally, we have no choice. I think it is wrong to characterize women who have abortions as "murderers" because we are not! U men do not have to think about anything when it comes to that! U have no idea what it feels like to have to remove something that could be your baby. So please, i dont think any man has any right to say anything in this discussion, only because you're a man.. and u dont have the problem...!

Nat - 16/09/2008 15:07

Talk of playground tactics is rich coming from "Anonymous" who has done nothing else since he started his bitter insults on this discussion - which might I remind you is about the personal trauma of abortion,so if you have nothing helpful to contribute which might be positive for women, then why do you bother coming on here - unless it is to get some sort of sick kicks from insulting and jibing others with your uncaring spite. Anonymous Posted: 29/08/2008 17:09 - well said. Natalie

O.K - 26/10/2008 17:13

I feel saddened and discussed at what this ‘Anonymous’ individual has to say about abortion when clearly they have not been put in the position of making the decision of whether to keep or not there unborn child, so your comments and statements seem null to me. as I have recently made that decision and though it is an upsetting experience, it’s the right decision for me, and the father. You seem to be a small person, that you make these what you consider harsh statements, but you obviously seem scared of your own convictions that you choose to stay anonymous.

Anonymous - 28/10/2008 09:40

OK the REASON I have not been in this position is because I have not PUT myself in it! I have no wish to get pregnant and then decide it's "not the right time" and make my unborn child pay for my lack of timing.

ok - 28/10/2008 18:06

Well again, not a very educated answer..I'm not trying to change your mind, just that you need to consider people's feelings, not just your own. do you think I did it on purpose, no I don't think so contraceptives fail, your kid some day may turn to you in this situation, and I would question your parenting skills if you think your manner is appropriate.

Anonymous - 29/10/2008 09:13

Well, if teaching my children that it is wrong to take away the life of an unborn baby makes me a bad mother then so be it. I'd rather that than my child grows up without values.

Alex - 30/10/2008 15:57

Anonymous Posted: 29/08/2008 17:09 I've just read back though my posts and tried to remember ever having said 'why get pregnant then choose abortion'. I have not said this, that is not my opinion, which i thought would be obvious.

ok - 30/10/2008 18:09

M_18... i know how you feel.. i recently went through an abortion, it has been 4 months now and its harder than ever.. but still 90% of the time the right decision.. but im glad to know im not alone on it.. its the hardest thing I will ever did, hope you are doing well and suffered no complications.

ok - 30/10/2008 18:16

i think people in this discussion need to start a discussion somewhere else, the title is 'abortion- the personal trauma'. most of you do not belong here. people wish to discuss there personal experience with others who sympathise and empathise, consider this..carefully all of you. You are hurting grieving people.

Nat - 03/11/2008 11:59

Anonymous, you were LUCKY not to be in that situation, that's all. You do not have 100% control over everything that happens in your life. No one does. Contraceptives fail, people get sick, lose their jobs or their homes. That may happen your kid someday and if your attitude to them is going to be that harsh, then yes I do pity them

Anonymous - 03/11/2008 13:33

lucky?You think that it was pure luck that I didnt get pregnant? No, it was because I used contraception.

Anonymous - 03/11/2008 13:36

Contraceptives fail, people get sick, lose their jobs or their homes. You do not have 100% control over everything that happens in your life. No one does. Nat

ChristineCally - 26/01/2009 00:35

Is there any other discussion where girls who have had abortions can share their feelings with one another?

ok - 26/01/2009 18:06

Im not sure if there is any other discussions but if you want someone to talk to about we can on this... have you had an abortion??

Patricia - 13/02/2009 13:43

Like so many other discussion threads, this one has, sadly, also been hijacked.  It is titled: Abortion-the personal trauma.  There is another thread on the subject of whether abortion should be legalised in Ireland, where posters can give their opinions for and against.

Here it is about the personal trauma involved.

Could I just comment that people can give opinions.  What they cannot do is JUDGE others, or insult others, or demean them.  No one is entitled to judge another person.  Remember, while you are busy looking for the speck in another's eye you are ignoring the plank of wood in your own! 


ok - 15/02/2009 17:43

thank you patrica,

i agree people are allowed to have there oppions but how they have chosen to air them on this discussion is so deeply saddening. How could they make those comments. No one wants to have an abortion deep down but are left with no other option. I know I did not want to have one but my the father insisted. So i find what people have said so idiotic.

mayla - 29/01/2010 22:58

i had an abortion 2 years ago , brushed it under the carpet and now its like i've been hit by a train, dont understand why this is haunting me now, fighting with everyone , affecting work , my relationship, feel this week its come to a head , dont want to exist any more , regret is terrible thing , no going back , so depressed and no one to talk to , why wasnt i strong enough to keep my baby ! feel like a murderer cause it was so not my personality to do something like that ,

dont know wat to do but its a scary feeling !


iknow.imgood - 01/02/2010 09:42

i read these posts, agreeing with some and not with others. I have to say anyone who has had an abortion, realise eventually that they wilfully decided to terminate a human life. I think women should have the child and offer it for adoption or fostering but to choose abortion to rid of 'their unplanned pregnancy' is one of the saddest things. If abortion wasnt an option in todays worlds, i am sure women out there would have eventually grown to manage their lives with their babies in it and moved on and lived a happier life. Have the child and give it up to someone that wants a child to rear and love it.

Anonymous - 01/02/2010 11:44

Mayla, may I respectfully suggest that you seek counselling for the feelings you are trying to work through. Help is out there and you don't have to feel alone. The IFPA I understand, provide post-abortion counselling and have professionally qualified non-judgemental staff who are trained to help. Good Luck and take care.

iknow - your judgemental comments are NOT helpful and frankly NOT relevant to every woman who has had an abortion. Adoption is NOT always a subsitute for abortion - if it were, abortion would not be sought. When safe and legal abortion was not an option women resorted to unsafe illegal and abortion and still do in certain countries - this is well known. What you may be so "sure" does not apply to every woman - unless you are living her life - which you are not. If you are going to contribute, why don't you just try to helpful to women who have had abortions rather thna making judgement calls on things you have no experience of

buzz - 01/02/2010 15:09

With respect, I disagree with abortions, as a woman it goes completely against the grain for me, but to those who have posted nasty comments here there ARE other threads where the issue is being discussed. This thread is a support for people who are going through a tough time because of something they have done and whether or not we agree with what they have done this is NOT the place to air views in order to hurt others. There are some threads here that people use for support (for example the anxiety one which I use and would not like people to use to have a go at anxiety sufferers!!) and I dont think its fair to hijack these for airing personal views, as there are plenty of other threads which are specifically for teasing out debates etc and are somewhat more objective and less likely to hurt people who are seeking support.

Olly - 01/02/2010 15:42

If you are feeling bad please go for non-judgemental counselling. It should help, try to avoid counselling from Catholic based organisations if possible or you may end up feeling worse. Personally, I had an abortion 10 years ago and I don't feel that I willfully took a human life, I have no regrets for my decision and going through with a pregnancy (and giving a child up for adoption) is not as easy as it sounds.

tomboy - 22/08/2011 18:22

Anyone who has been given the right to live (as we all have) should never take it away from someone else. What if that person was going to be the president of Ireland, be a great doctor or design a beautiful building ect? Do you think that they will be no good if you have them? Abortion should never be an option. It is barbaric and any woman that says she is okey after having one is only fooling herself. A massive 90% of women have trouble living with themselves afterwards. It is after all murder and if one can't see that then they are not living in the real world.

Anonymous - 23/08/2011 09:45

tomboy, this discussion is about the personal trama of abortion. Do you really think your judgemental remarks and "wouldabeen" comments are actually helpful?

For right or wrong, abortion is an option and the option which some take or maybe feel they have no choice but to take. Everyone has 20 / 20 vision in hindsight, that's easy. But if you think for one second that telling a traumatised women about how barbaric and murderous she is and how she is fooling herself, you are on the wrong discussion. As a matter of fact, many women are ok after having one, they are just the ones you never hear a word about becuase they never seek help becuase they don't have any problems they need help with  - regardless of what you think about that, so your figure of 90% is a massively erronious invention of the anti-choice "pro-life" lobby. But is it any wonder some women would have problems when they meet such judgemental and hateful attitudes as yours.

tomboy - 24/08/2011 01:28

You say that 90% of women is grossly exaggerated. Well I reckong the number travelling to Britain or giving Irish adresses is also greatly exaggerated. Not having abortion in this country has probably saved a lot of children, thank God. Someone has to stand up for the unborn so if I sound harsh in my posts then so be it.

                                               It is wrong in this day and age when we have plenty of contraceptives that are so easy to get. I had a crisis pregnancy myself and I did think about abortion. But I got great help. was given a job even and I put my child up for adoption. Of course it was hard to give my child away but if I had killed it I definately would not be able to live with myself. Women that can cope with abortions have either no feelings or are brainwashed into thinking that the child they carry isn't even alive. That's the message that pro-choice put across. How do you know that these women are able to cope with an abortion? Are you with them 24/7? No you are not. I reckon that many women suffer torture over what they have had to do but were left down by society. Yet there is loads of help out there and alternatives to abortion but somehow the women aren't getting them. Every child is a wanted child if not by the mother then by other people who are willing to take them.

Anonymous - 24/08/2011 11:28

Tonboy, do you have any evidence or facts to provide your assertion, that women who are not Irish are giving Irish addresses we travelling to UK for abortion? In fact there is a long history of Irish women havign abortion in the UK and givign UK addresses - of friends or family. Interestingly the numbers for Irish abortions (in UK) is very similar to the numnber of British abortions.

So you think a lot more women are trumatised yet your contrubution is "if I sound harsh in my posts then so be it"  - do tou really think for a second that such a condemnatory attitude does anythig but the opposite of help? Is that what you want - to truamatise women even further? Becuase if so you are in the wroing discussion.

I am sorry to hear about you losing your chilod through adoption. Great that you got some help at the time. However, no-one is conmdemning you for your decsion, just as you do not the the right to condemn other women for theirs. To say that women that can cope with abortions have either no feelings or are brainwashed into thinking that the child they carry isn't even alive is a) arrogant judgementalism which has not place there and b) is nothing father from the truth.

Are you with them 24/7? No you are not either.

So you reckon that many women suffer torture over what they have had to do? I am glad you admit that is is what they had to do - and yes, prhaps they left down by society. Yet you think it's alright for you to sling harsh judgementalism at them to increase theoir pain? What sort of woman ARE you? You of all people should surely understand.

tomboy - 24/08/2011 13:42

No, I don't understand abortion any more. Not in the so-called civilisation we are in at this time. The only thing that I can go on is that I am glad to be alive and that I was given the opportunity to do so. Why then is this being denied to other people? Why aren't they being given the chance to breath life like we do and all the opportunities that life brings? Why are women so afraid to bring these children into the world? In my eyes it is only fear that is preventing these women having these children. Fear of pregnancy, fear that they won't have enough money to support them. fear that neighbours will condem them or whatever. Fears can be overcome by the right support and the right support is out there. I had it back in the 1970's so there is far more support there now in this day and age.

                                                     I don't believe that Britain has the same abortion rates as ourselves not with the population we have. Thats absurd.

 You also said that I of all people should understand the trauma of abortion seeing as I put up a child for adoption. Yes, of course there was severe emotional pain in doing this but for me there would have been far more of that type of pain involved if I was to have aborted it. I learned about courage that time and this has stood to me all my life. I went on to have seven more children when I married and it takes an awful lot of courage to go through this amount of pregnancies. Yet my kids are all so different. They are magnificent and I know that each and everyone of them are so delighted at been given the opportunity of life.

Anonymous - 24/08/2011 15:07

Yes, tomboy, perhaps you're right. Perhaps fear is a big part of it. As you say you had it back on the 70's but maybe didn't have enough of it to keep and raise your baby and perhaps ths is what women are still afraid of and for some maybe they are in abusive relationships and don't have the support to enable them to leave, maybe there are medical complictions ( and no-one with even a shred of anything but comtempt for women coiuld blame them in that situation) and for some maybe they just do not want to be mothers. The facts are there to prove it. Per capita (per head of population) our abortion rates for Irish abortions are very similar.  This is what I mean tomboy, you had a crisis pregnancy, you lost a child through adoption and had emotional pain and trauma as a result and as you say the truama for you woudl have been worse had you had an abortion - therefore you must surely understand it for women who have had abortion and have experieced trauma from that.For a woman having an abortion, that takes courage too.  When you married and chose to have seven more children, I presume then they they were children that you wanted - rather then crisis pregnancies - totally different from having the courage in a crisis pregnancy situation. It sounds like you love your children so much and I hope you and every parent who feels that tells your children how they feel, often. It's a great thing to see and perhaps women would feel they had more optios oin a crisis situation if they felt loved, A great thing to see, so clearly they were the right choice for you but this is not the case for every woman. Every one makes different chouce and we can do so only with the information we have at the time. The benefit of hindsight is always 20 / 20.

tomboy - 25/08/2011 23:10

Anon, I know in hindsight we might see better ways. But surely abortion cannot now be one of the choices that women make. We must look at the better way and I believe that most people would have abortion down as the least way that a women could go. If we are to evolve properly in life then we must learn to leave cruel ways behind us. We have to learn how to love more deeply and aborting our children does not show love. It is a disregard for human life and this can only be a backward step. I know women who are messed up from abortion. I have seen a part of them die. I have seen the laughter go from them and they are now more quieter and more serious. Most teenagers cannot comprehend motherhood yet but it's when they have children later in their lives - it is then they realise what they have done and they begin to grieve in a different more intense way. The women I know would take it all back in the morning and would choose adoption.

                                           And there are others who wish their boyfriends could have stopped them from having abortions but men seem to have no say in this area here in Ireland. My own son was going to pay for his girlfriends abortion eight years ago but now that the child is here he is so glad that they didn't go through with it. He absolutely adores him now and looks after him very well even though he and his girlfriend have since broken up. It was I who pursuaded them not to have an abortion and they are so glad that they didn't do it now.

                                              It need not be the end of the world anon if you become pregnant in difficult circumstances. That child is coming for a reason. That child is going to teach you lots of things and bring you to new places. Or you can give that child away to someone who can give it what it needs. I am in the process of tracing my child at the moment but I have heard nothing yet. All I want to do Anon, is to meet with him once. Then I can go to my grave happy. All through the years I have spoken to him in my mind, constantly asking him how he is getting on. I never stopped thinking about him any day and judging by the very first letter I got from his adopted mother when he was 19 he seems to be getting on very well. I have a dream Anon. That every child will be a wanted child. I think Ireland is a great example in not allowing abortion. I am convinced that this decision has saved lots of children and even if one child only was saved it would be enough. Going to England that time for me was too much trouble and it was costing too much. Now my child is alive and well.

buzz - 29/08/2011 15:21

Tomboy the best of luck with finding your son. I wish you well. You did a very brave, selfless thing to give up your body for 9 months to give your child life, and to give the gift of a child to somebody else. My own brother was adopted and I sometimes think, "God, if his birth mother had chosen a different route..." Anyway thank God she made her decision to carry him and give him up. I cannot begin to imagine how hard it was for her (or you) to do this but of course you can sleep at night knowing that you gave him life! (And I now have the best best best big brother in the world thanks to another woman's selflessness and ability to think about someone else).

A family friend has an adopted son who traced his birth mother a few years ago - both his birth and adoptive mothers were at his wedding!!! So lovely :) I really do hope it all works out for you and your son.

Regards x

tomboy - 30/08/2011 22:48

Buzz, Thanks so much for your lovely comments. It makes me feel so much better and I am so glad that I didn't abort him. I only hope that my son has found a lovely brother like you or a lovely sister. I really wish that I could meet him. Do you know I feel ready now and I would finally be able to get a bit of closure. Thanks again.

Anonymous - 12/09/2011 13:17

Sad as it is, tomboy, abortion is now one of the choices that women make. I agree entirely that we should look at the better way to minimize abortion as a choice women make or feel they have to resort to.

No men have no say in this area as a man compelling someone else to go through something like that against her will is completely unethical. However, I do think that helping your son and his girlfiend and supporting them they way you did, was a wonderful thing to do. I hope more parents can do the same. You seem to have a wonderful outlook on crisis pregnancies. It is fantastic that your tracing your son. If only so many mothers (and adoptees) were able to do so successfully, it would save such a huge buden of hurt, grief and pain in this area. The very best of luck with it and I do hope you get a chance to meet him. It would of course be truely wonderful if every child was a wanted child.

Portia27 - 12/11/2011 23:32

I note in this discussion the feelings incurred in having an abortion or not having one.

Abortion is and should be a personal choice - not one imposed by patriarchal institutions like the church, where men in dresses have ruled over women's bodies and reproduction for thousands of years now.

This indoctrination is then absorbed into the collective consciousness which people use to form opinions, which they believe are their own, but in fact are not. Most are part of the herd mentality and the patriarchal for and against, divide and conquer mentality, which is so evident here.

The same indoctrination re adoption exists in the collective consciousness, where once again women are usually coerced, bombarded into making a decision based on the more authoritarian person around at the time the decision is being made.

buzz - 14/11/2011 11:30

Portia, with respect, you cannot make sweeping statements like that. Just because somebody does not agree with abortion does not mean they have been indoctrinated or brainwashed, nor are they part of a herd. I do not agree with abortion but I can assure you I wouldnt step foot inside a church! Regardless of our differences of opinion, I would not make such insulting comments about YOUR beliefs. Just because someone does not hold the same views as you does not make them "wrong" (by this logic, you too would be wrong because your views oppose mine) - it makes them DIFFERENT. If you want to argue a point, fine but please do so in a logical and mature way, rather than making sweeping statements that anyone who dares to disagree with you cannot think for themselves. Much as you believe pro-lifers are raging a war on women, some of us belive pro-choicers are raging a war on the unborn. There are no winners in this sad and complicated issue.

gettingbetter - 23/11/2011 19:12

WOW, This conversation thread has been going on for 10 years if I am correct and much longer in our country! I am a 40 year old Irish woman and I remember my first sex ed conversation - it was at the maternity after I gave birth to my eldest child! I also remember that year when condoms went on public view for sale in chemists, then is it no wonder we had/have such a high rate of unplanned pregnancies and terminations! I had an abortion when I was 17 and finally came to terms with it at the age of 35, through counselling. I still mark the day of termination and this does bring some peace however a regret still hangs over me somewhat and that is the wasted years in between when I was riddled with guilt ( some catholic based). I truly believe if the proper counselling services were in place at the time for me, then I could have moved on with my life and grieved my baby without letting my decision remain so destructive for a further 18 years. I went on to have a large and wonderful family that I am truly blessed to have but will never forget my first pregnancy and how it ended and the attitude of ireland and lack of services nearly destroyed me. I hope people out there in turmoil avail of the services and give feedback negative and positive so they can be improved and updated all the time. To any woman out there going through this, my heart goes out to you and I hope you make an informed decision and go on to find happiness in your life x

buzz - 06/12/2011 13:24

Agree regarding the sex ed point. I went to second level in the late nineties and even then the information we got was too little too late. Of course nowadays I dont think many people can plead ignorance when it comes to unplanned pregnancies but certainly not too long ago it was an issue. Then there are other things people do not realise like how different drugs can affect the pill etc etc. It's not always clear cut.

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